SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A finely crafted word salad of blame-shifting.

Dripping with regret that she got caught and the fun is over.

Not a droplet of true humility and remorse.

She is making divorcing her easier and easier with her approach and attitude.

I’m educating myself about what a remorseful spouse should do and how to act and how a mother should behave in front of her children.

Pay attention to this - so much packed into this statement and it is very revelatory.

I don’t think waywards realize they are doing this but it gives the game away:

1. I’m educating myself about what a remorseful spouse should do - “should do”

2. “How to act“ - acting

3. How a mother should behave

See the thing is, people with narcissistic tendencies have an empathy deficit and low EQ (emotional intelligence). The right ways of behaving for them are something to be learned, or more accurately to be mimicked. Because it certainly doesn’t come from a genuine place.

She was confused about how a mother should behave in front of her children before all of this? She needs to learn it? Really?

Bear this in mind.

She was so much in love with om that she was ready to leave if only the youngest was old enough.

two weeks later she is saying it was just talk?

What are the cliches?

What are you going to believe me or your own lying eyes?

Ignore the man behind the curtain.

Nothing to see here folks, go to your homes

Is the frame holding?

I didn’t know what I was saying.

When I said I was going to leave you I wanted him to believe I was going to leave you. But I knew when you found out that you would believe I was going to leave you. Now do you understand? You would think I was going to leave you so you would convince me not to leave you.

And finally, I was just telling him what he wanted to hear. Why you ask? So he would keep fucking me...oh wait! Uh because he was a lousy lay and that’s why I kept going back cuz I was so addicted to the bad sex. You were superior so I cut you off.

Crap. The cross examination writes itself.

Oh and she felt so guilty and wanted to break up so much that she posed nude so he could Have something to remember all the bad sex. See, she always loved you and was thinking of you. Every minute she was under him she never stopped loving you. Anyone can see that. If she hadn’t been caught she’d still be loving you in her own special secret way.

And if you can make head or tail of the standing behind the paper target cockamamie you are a better man than I.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 11:46 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

Yeah, I don’t buy it. I think she is speaking some truth....when suggesting you will someday see your part of all this. All blame shifting and re-writing of the relationship.

I grew up religious, not so much anymore, but I find this “why” to be very shallow.

Pay very close attention to her plan. She is researching what do to. It makes sense, but that can be good or bad depending on your plans. She can use resources just like SI to be better at her “parallel life”. Ironic, my WW used the same dribble with me, along with “compartmentalization”.

It’s all BS. She cheated because she wanted to, the opportunity was there and she was selfish enough to make the decisions to cheat.

I’m sorry that you’re here, AHGuy. It sucks. I got the t-shirt and hat myself.

Anyway, there are many good responses to your wife’s letter so far. So, I hope you don’t mind another, albeit slightly different take.

In my opinion, some significant parts of your wife’s letter include the following statements:

“I knew all along you were there behind my paper target but convinced myself I wouldn’t get you, because we’ve ignored each other for so long that I forgot where you were standing.”

“You said I should’ve shouted at you that You were losing me and should’ve ended our marriage before starting a new relationship. You are right! I should have and I did shout at you many times and begged you too, I told you our marriage was in trouble didn’t I? but you disagreed and I honestly thought you didn’t care at that time, only seeing you in pain now made me realize that you care.”

“However, I wish one day you would realize your part of what went wrong too.”

My Affair was never about you or anyone else… It wasn’t about the sex or replacing you, it wasn’t about him either. I don’t know exactly what it was about, hopefully I can find out.

Yes I did all that and to be honest reading it the way you wrote it made me hate myself more. I wish I could change that, there is no excuse or debate about how wrong I was. The only thing I want to add and please do not take it the wrong way I’m just stating the truth, you did not want any of that, You rejected all my intimacies you cared less if I dressed sexy or not, before reading your email I was convinced that you didn’t want anything like that from me. Correct me if I’m wrong.”

“He, in the other hand appreciated that part of my femininity and valued it more and I blindly fell for it. I’m not arguing that I was wrong for allowing him that. All I want is a chance to let you have my femininity for you only.”

“I want to do what’s right period. And what’s right is to save marriage and be the best wife and mother I can be, I’m educating myself about what a remorseful spouse should do and how to act and how a mother should behave in front of her children."

Facts matter. Only you know if her statements completely hold water, some water, or are full of holes. However, if her statements are true, she is not shifting blame. Instead, she is telling you that she has discovered new parts of her personality as she has matured, has some new likes and dislikes, and therefore needs different experiences in order to be happy in the relationship if it is to move forward.

Growing and changing as we mature is, in my opinion, natural and can be healthy if undertaken with appropriate boundaries. So, if her statements hold water, she is telling you flat-out that the relationship cannot go back to the way that it was. I personally think that is a fine request to make. A little bossy, but fine, nevertheless.

With that in mind, you need to determine whether that is an acceptable request, and if it is, what timeframe it is acceptable to attempt making changes for her. I cannot tell you whether the accept he request to make changes for her. That decision must come from you. On the other hand, I will suggest that you don’t agree to doing that for at least 9-12 months so that she can obtain 9-12 months of secular therapy to explore, and reflect, on why she entered into an affair.

I also suggest that you wait 9-12 months to commit to any changes because you need to explore them too. Will you be happy making these changes, more particularly. With that in mind, it might be informative to consider part of ‘anoldlion’s’ response to you on page 20:

"AHguy it is evident your love language is "Acts of Service". I can relate because so is mine. (I have changed my share of diapers. When I was home I was super Dad. Your wife's love language is "Words of Affirmation and Quality Time". By your own words you were giving yours but she wasn't getting hers. This takes compromise.(which I have done my share of) You go out and have her kind fun one night and she and does something you like on another night. Besides love, there are two other elements that makes a good marriage. Effective communication. That means you both listen to what each other is saying and fixing things if they need fixing. The other is compromise. You made a statement a while back that caught my attention. You said "it's my way or the highway". The only way a marriage can survive under this condition is if you are married to a complete submissive. If this is what your marriage was based on then I would have advised you to get a divorce 5 or 6 years ago when she started changing. If you do decide to reconcile and you expect to make no changes, no compromise, then divorce is the right route to take. You will both be better off."

If as you insinuated, "it's my way or the highway,” you need to consider whether you’re willing to expend the energy to try and change your interaction with her for the good of relationship. Are you willing to be “open to her femininity”, and provide her words of affirmation and quality time? Wine her, dine her, and buy her flowers just for the hell of it?

Like ‘anoldlion’ mentioned, you should have requirements for a happy relationship too. Maybe it’s helping you outside in the yard, like you like to do. Or going fishing with you. There are two parties in this relationship, and your needs and your likes and desires have as much merit as hers. So you need to consider what these are. Think hard about this, give her your list, and explore it with her. Some may be enacted in the near term, while others may be enacted longer term.

But remember, many person’s likes, tastes, and desires change as we mature. With communication and compromise, many of these changes can be met by the parties. However, and this is the takeaway, it’s possible that you two are now just too different now to maintain a healthy relationship moving forward. That is why I suggest that you not agree to do this for her until she has at least 9-12 months of secular therapy, and time for each of you to test the lists you provide. If you are no longer enough alike to maintain a healthy relationship, or either of you cannot deal with the stress of making changes for the other party, then get a divorce. It is better to do that, in my opinion, than expend energy long-term that will be fruitless because it leads to: 1) deep resentment on either of your parts,; 2) a roommate-style relationship; or 3) another affair. Sometime people grow apart and it’s more mature to deal with it, instead of just kicking the can down the road. The 9-12 months should give you time to survey and test both of you. And, by the way, the list you provide her should include things you need to heal, and so should be much, much longer than her demands from the letter.

I also wanted to quickly chime in on her therapy. In it she should explore her motivations for having an affair. This will likely lead to observations about being wanted by someone different than a known factor, you, and feeling young again, etc. Ultimately though, I suspect that if she is truthful, she already knows her motivation for having an affair: she no longer wants the style of relationship she has had with you, instead wants the type of relationship she has had with the OM. It’s part of her demands in her response, but strewn about in different places in an attempt to soften the blow. Though, through therapy, she will learn to articulate her emotions more clearly, better boundaries, and healthier substitutes to soothe herself when she doesn’t get what she wants.

Anyway, I hope that you gain better emotional footing soon. If you haven’t, it’s strongly recommended that you seek therapy as well. It can help you gain emotional clarity, so that you steps moving forward are more sure-footed.

From a former traveler of this shitshow,

Drumstick

[This message edited by Drumstick at 12:16 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

...but your affair was carried on in the secular world, and I absolutely require that you find support from a non religious therapist as well. This needs to be a female counselor who specializes in Infidelity. This is an absolute must.

Assuming you didn't edit this out of Robert's letter, HAMMER it home. The IC work she does MUST be in the secular world... end of discussion.

[This message edited by Tseratievig at 12:49 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

AH

I dont think she is lying, she believes what she is saying, but it doesnt mean It is true.

When did she ask you to go to MC?? This is a key data since she may had started feelling that once OM was already in the picture!!! So she likes the attention and started to justify, in her head , and believe all OM lunes...then she rewrites marriage, resets you, etc .

She seems like a proud woman, and this is a huge barrier if she can not test down the walls and get a new and real viene of her actions.

You are feelling guilty for what she said about you, lack of attention, didnt care, etc. You may hace not been a great Husband, even a bad one, but even in her email data what a great man you are. You are not perfect, no one is, but you are far from how she painted you!!!!

Again, she convinced her self that you were a bad Husband and grew resetment to justify her actions.

She needs to believe what she put in the email about you, otherwise she would be a Evil person, lousy wife, crappy mother and a w...( Sorry but she traded porn sex, even dreesed nice, for luxury, gifts, restaurante, bouth saling)

In a nut Shell, she in survival Mode and dental, she cant face her actions unther an objective perspectiva because she cant best It!!! Even if D or R , she Will need to face her actions and own them, sooner or later.

I think, you should really adrees all her contradictions and guiding explanations , but not un a email. Better face to face. This is not to save your marriage, It is for saving your kids mother!!! Even if you D

Sorry if I'm being late to this.

But this statement...

It wasn’t about his money believe me, thank god we have more than enough.

There's the cake she knows she's about to lose.

She still wants you to take some responsibility for her affair. Which makes the rest of her "remorse" seem hollow. Almost like she read it somewhere and plugged it in to get extra points from you.

She's not going to learn remorse or empathy from a book. It would take years of therapy to get to where she is truly remorseful.

You can see now that this letter is really about her saving face. I can't believe she actually said it. This gives you the advantage of knowing what you are truly up against - forgive her now so she can possibly dump you later on for still not living up to your end of the marriage. No thanks.

I got a similar letter from my XWW. Lots of blameshifting, recalling past marital bliss, words of her redemption, and her not letting her actions define her. Can you see the entitlement?

I've said it before, you need to accept that she is not who you thought she was. She is attempting to put her mask back on.

Is it possible she can change? Sure. But, most importantly, do YOU think she can change? What would be her motivation? To honestly keep you and save your marriage? Or is it all just to save face and not lose her comfy life?

You know her best. Or at least you thought you did. We've all been there.

You could also D and then maybe a few years later, after she has put in the effort , try giving it another go after you've both had time to fix yourselves. The marriage is done. Stick a fork in it. Rip the bandaid off. Just my two cents.

Take luck.

[This message edited by squid at 3:10 AM, July 29th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

Also I think she admitted in the letter she did things sexually for the OM she’s never done or offered for you. How does that sit with you?

OP never wanted those things

WW is not refusing to do those things for her BH now

Paper target! She knew exactly what she was aiming at AH and it was you... No mythical paper target. It was a double barreled shotgun firing both barrels and there was no paper target. She had her eyes open and firing directly, willingly, willfully and with malice at your chest.

This is not just minimizing, it is a bold faced lie that she was somehow hitting you by accident. She knew everything she shared with him would hurt you to the level of destroying you and for two years she kept making choice after choice again and again to fire blast after blast from her artillery of deceit lies and emasculating intent directly at your manhood, never-mind a paper target.

That phrase just really set me off.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 3:21 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

If the OP, or any BS wants to divorce they have my support.

There are many reasons to try recovery. His WW is making a

start at recovery.

It is wrong to state that the WS has to do all the heavy lifting

there is heavy lifting for both. They need to help each other.

The BS needs to spell out the requirements for recovery.

NC with the OM

IC for the WW

NC letter

Expose the affair to WW family

Leave her job

No more over night travel alone for the rest of the marriage

Fully access and passwords to all of WW forms of

communication.

Must sigh up on SI so the FWW her guide her through this

recovery

There have been many recoveries where the WS knew nothing

about recovery and it took them time to learn how to do it

OP is your marriage worth saving?

Examine your motivations, wants, needs, what you have to

lose and gain. It appears that you both have learned how to

make your new marriage better than the old one.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 3:31 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

An interesting letter and I agree with many of the responses there is a lot of poor me i'me so sorry etc but you've been told that already.

1 Giving herself back to Jesus - easily said but a bit unprovable , Did she not go to church during the affair?

2 She ended the affair - No she didn't, she was caught.

3 Looking for a new job - easily said and heard many times here not often followed through.

4 In counselling - has to be a professional the pastor doesn't count.

5 Access to phone etc- take them and then tell her having a retrieval program run on them even if you don't actually do it - her reaction should be a tell.

6 Gps the car just don't tell her also var the car to see if she's confiding in someone.

7 Whatever you think plus the above.

1 Giving herself back to Jesus - easily said but a bit unprovable , Did she not go to church during the affair?

7 Whatever you think plus the above.

AH, I'll try one more time. You are a blue collar hard working guy and your wife is a sales person with a sales personality and is manipulating like she is taught to do. Why do i say that??? Because so far, everything you have communicated has given her time to PREPARE a well constructed response instead of putting her on the spot and forcing her to respond immediately. The letter you sent had some good points BUT she took all day to construct her response. Cant you get that. You should sat her at the table and said the exact same thing.

So lets start out with her responses

(1)Giving herself back to Jesus

Sorry that is totally subjective and means absolutely NOTHING

(2) She ended the affair - No she didn't, she was caught.

By her own words she ended the affair numerous times. You have no idea what she said to him. You haven't apparently even asked if she has seen him in person, and you have no way of knowing what the hell she actually said to him other then her word. How have you done believing her words the last two years.???

(3) Looking for a new job - easily said and heard many times here not often followed through.

So Mr Big Shot is a big client of her firm. You really thing they are going to ban him from walking into their office anytime he likes. So if the firm does not know about the two of them, how does she remain no contact, especially when there are people in the office who think her fucking him was great?? A damm realtor can get a job anywhere. How does she remail NC even if she wants to???

(4) In counselling - has to be a professional the pastor doesn't count.

She has already told you why she did it. It was exciting, fun, and she believed in her mind if you didn';t find out it was OK. Your pastor and her family are useless and why the fuck are you even entering the thought of counseling until you decide if you are divorcing her or not. If you divorce her she can fuck whoever she wants to and its none of your business. And for heavens sake, you are CRASZY if you refer her here to this site so she can read everything you write and respond accordingly.

(5) Access to phone etc- take them and then tell her having a retrieval program run on them even if you don't actually do it - her reaction should be a tell. You already know from BS what they did. it would not surprise anyone if she also fucked OM's buddy who owned the place where they hooked up or did a threesome with them Does it matter????

How can she block him if he;s using multiple burner phones? Have you bothered to ask HER if he gave her a burner phone?? If he has one and he;s still chasing her I'd be looking for one if i were you.

And as far as tracking her all she has to do is leave that phone in her office and you will think shes there.

As for the NC letter, its useless at this point. He is not going to accept it and the only verification you have that she said a word about a restraining order is that SHE TOLD YOU THAT . Did she do it??? NOPE.

You are obviously very mechanically skilled. Why haven;t you put a VAR in her car, which she is in a lot to VERIFY anything. it will tell you if she is lying about NC, if she is lying about who else knew, and what she is saying to them. Again, no action on your part to VERIFY anything.

The things the other folks have told you is all true. There are not a high percentage of women on the planet who will have sex with a man for two years and NOT develop strong feelings for him. Thats her fucking problem. Your problem is to not believe this shit about it all ended yesterday after reading that letter you sent her.

My profession is a pretty high level sales manager for a very large corporation. her skills are trained to OVERCOME objections, which is exactly what she is doing with you and you are letting her. When she is with a client and they ask her something about the rooms in the house they are in she cant tell them go home and I;ll look at the room and respond in writing. She has to answer on the spot and can lost the client if the answer is wrong.

When you go to buy a car, do you let the sales person tell you they will e mail you the car price or do you want it right then.

You are letting her totally control the dial;ogue and communication and she is running circles around you,.

STOP letting her pastor and family be the advisers. This is between YOU and HER. And stop responding to canned prepared sales pitches.

And you still havent insisted on a polygraph anything even if its just to see her response.

And lastly i will repeat that in your house right now very close to where you put your head down at night are most certainly gifts, clothes, lingerie, that she got from him or for him.. And she hasn;t apparently even told you that or got rid of anything.

Stop backpedaling. If youre not moving forward you are losing ground .

Man oh Man, What a self-centered steaming load of horsecrap that letter was.

Seriously she doesn't get it, and as long as she uses Jesus as an excuse, she isn't going to get it. Along w/ that she was completely self absorbed, and blameshifting the entire letter.

She sounds like she is even developing a strange questionable relationship with the Pastor. She is 100% in w/ not owning her shit, because this person has convinced her she did it because she fell away from her faith.

NOPE. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, File.

AH

It has been a Big hit.

How r u doing?

Take your time, dont let her put pressure on you. Dont let us put pressure on you!

Focus on you, your kids, your hobbyes. She took 2 years , you can

All you read here are opiniones, non if us kbow you, not her. Take what you need, ask what you doubt, vent as much as needed. Share as much as you need

Keep reading, keep posting, keep educating your self

AH,

You’ve gotten a lot of perspective here. Probably many of us are angry on your behalf after reading that letter. You don’t know any of us. We’re all faceless, anonymous keyboard warriors who aren’t living your life. That’s the difficult thing about places like SI. You know your own situation best.

Here’s a frame that might help you as you think about what’s best for your life (your life, not your WW’s, not anyone else).

Julia Cameron is a writer who tries to help creative people get unstuck and she came up with a list of qualities for “crazymakers” - toxic people who bring you down, sap your life energy and keep you from being your best. Here’s the list - ask yourself, in light of your WW’s two year affair in which she planned to leave you and sought to humiliate you, whether she meets many of these descriptions. If she does you’re dealing with a crazymaker, full stop:

1. Crazymakers break deals and destroy schedules. They show up hours late for an appointment (if at all) and expect to be waited on hand and foot. They invite you out for lunch, order the most expensive thing on the menu and then expect you to foot the bill.

2. Crazymakers expect special treatment. They suffer a wide panoply of mysterious ailments that require care and attention whenever you have a deadline looming. The Crazymaker cooks her own special meal in a house full of hungry children – and does nothing to feed the kids. In fact, they care little for anyone else outside of themselves.

3. Crazymakers discount your reality. No matter how important your deadline or how critical your work trajectory at the moment, Crazymakers will violate your needs. Crazymakers are the people who call you at midnight or 6:00 am saying, “I know you asked me not to call you at this time, but…” or “I know you’re on a deadline” they say, “but this will only take a minute.” YOUR minute.

4. Crazymakers spend your time and money. If they borrow your car, they return it late with an empty tank. Their travel arrangements always cost you time and money. They demand to be met in the middle of your workday at an airport miles from town saying, “I didn’t bring money for a taxi”.

5. Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with. Because Crazymakers thrive on energy (your energy), they set people against one another in order to maintain their own position of power. From this position, they can feed most directly on the negative energies they stir up.

6. Crazymakers are expert blamers. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault.

7. Crazymakers create dramas-but seldom where they belong. They are often blocked creatives themselves. Witnessing others express their creativity makes them feel jealous and threatened. It makes them even more dramatic- at your expense. Devoted to their own agendas, Crazymakers impose this agenda on others. In other words, whatever matters to you becomes trivialized into a mere backdrop for the crazymakers’s personal plight.

8. Crazymakers hate schedules- except their own. In the hands of a Crazymaker, time is a primary tool for abuse. If you claim a certain block of time as your own, your crazymaker will find a way to fight you for that time, to mysteriously need things (meaning you) just when you need time alone to focus on the task at hand.

9. Crazymakers hate order. Chaos serves their purposes. When you begin to establish a space that serves you and your creativity, your Crazymaker will abruptly invade that space with their mess.

10. Crazymakers deny that they are Crazymakers. They will always try to convince you that YOU are the one that’s crazy.

11. Crazymakers drive you Crazy. (My #1. Rule is If it doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. If someone in your life is making you crazy run far away and fast…)

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:43 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

WW is not refusing to do those things for her BH now

Wow give that gal a medal!

No, she still thinks her “femininity” is a magical gift to offer after she befouled it and dishonored herself. With a serial cheater who just wanted a bedpost notch.

As if her genitalia has butterflies flitting around it, glitter everywhere and rainbows overarching it. News flash: it isn’t that special.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:02 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

I can’t respond to every post at this moment, I’m using my phone which I hate, I haven’t been home since I left yesterday morning and it’s making my wife crazy, she is bombarding me with messages which I’m ignoring, to a point where she asked my son about me.

One of her messages this morning said: I knew that you wouldn’t be satisfied with my response, there isn’t a thing I could have written that would explain to you how I feel. I want to prove to you that I’m sincere about rebuilding our marriage, There is a way out of this If we do it together

So she knows I’m not satisfied with her email, and thank you all for confirming that I wasn’t crazy. He email is nothing new, it’s almost the same thing she told me during our talk last week and during a meeting with her family 2 weeks ago, basically she promised the world but only if I admit my shitty role . To me she knows how hard it is to reconcile but do eye at to go back to the marriage we had before her Affair.

My question for those who know about D process, many of you said I could file and see what happens, but shouldn’t I agree on assets distribution and living arrangements before? Can I just file and serve her without deciding how we would spilt?

Two things first. You can not run message retrieval software on her work phone. It's illegal. And, for the love of God, DO NOT SHOW HER THIS SITE.

I tried to respond but after I read my draft I just couldn’t send it to you because I know in advance it wouldn’t be to your satisfaction, I know in advance that whatever I say or write to you would not be enough to make you feel any better. This time I decided to not read what I’m about to write I’m just going to send it after I’m done.

The above says so much. She had written drafts, before sending what she did. She didn't send the drafts because she knew you wouldn't be satisfied with what she wrote. She is trying to say what you want to hear,not the truth. Which neans her letter is full of lies. Then she says she decided to just write the email she sent, without revising it. Bullshit. She revised it. All afternoon.

This letter was a sales pitch to a client. She is selling you her bullshit,in hopes you will be satisfied,and buy it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:02 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

AH, lots of replies and advice here.

Something to bear in mind: Most of this advice is geared toward reconciliation. Earlier, you sounded like R wasn't even on the table for you.

If you don't plan to R, you don't need or want her to quit her job (alimony). You don't really need a timeline, or her to go to therapy, or to do anything for you at all.

From a psychological side of things, if she makes heavy investments in saving the marriage, it will become harder for you to make decisions "for you."

It's the Law of Reciprocity (google it). As a saleswoman she'll be well schooled in it.

Keep that in mind if you really aren't planning to reconcile. If you ARE planning or wanting R, even if AFTER divorce, you should listen to everything said here, even if seems counterintuitive.