SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ask her what her therapist thinks of her line of reasoning.

If it is anything other than "that is 100% bullshit garbage and she is a person who is selfish to the point of sickness", then it is time for a new therapist.

Dude, if you reject all of her bullshit and start to go on offense, file for divorce, you will see her other face again... her real face, not the crying sorry one, the "fuck AHguy" one.

AH, just joining the chorus line.

Don't you get it yet. You made her cheat. It was you. She tried but you just wouldn't listen, change, worship her.

It's bullshit. It's blameshifting to the exponential.Everything followed by a BUT negates everything before the BUT. That is all this is.

Do not buy this. Please read the last few posts by Thumos. I could try but couldn't say it as well as him and he has already said it. I'm a born again Christian. Thumos has presented a Christian perspective. Plus, there are atheists who don't cheat, agnostics who don't cheat, etc. I believe I've said on your thread about the Christian community often revictimizing the victim. As has been said, don't meet with the pastor.

Your WW's response was "I'm bad but you're worse". Don't fall for it. Reject it outright.

I am sorry but she was thinking on D because of your bahavior, but now needs the support that you always provided!?!?! So she needs her reliable, but not fun or enougth, plan B.

And she needs you support because she is mourning her relation, and great future, with OM

I don't normally give advice, but there are aspects of her response that I recognize.

I'll start with the fact that you and I are somewhat similar. I went through discovery of an LTA or two.

The fact is she can't turn her emotions on a dime. Unfortunately, that's what you need to happen. It's a paradox. You can wait it out and see what happens, but I wouldn't trust anything here even if it looks perfect.

What I want you to look at is the mirroring in her response. It reads like a sales pitch. That might be understandable... She's using the tools she knows. Maybe don't read too far into it.

This is likely the line of thinking "crud, he's found out my affair and I'm about to be outted. I need to nip this issue. But how? Give him what he wants and I'll keep my marriage and get myself out of this mess." The part that no one knows is if she will follow it up with "once this dies down, I can end the relationship for a reason that's not about the affair. Maybe when the kids are older in a year or two."

I just wouldn't trust this response. She may believe it, but I would not trust it.

How else could this play? Her emotions and body have been in this for two years. You don't turn off those emotions on a dime... No human could. It's understandable.

This response is "please help bail me out of this mess (that you're at least partially responsible for) and I'll do anything you want.". That's a normal human response. That's human.

I used to be a lifeguard eons ago. One of the things they teach you right off is that a drowning person is desperate and they'll pull you under with them. They teach you holds to avoid that, how to swim the drowning person in, and also ways to get out of being pulled under.

This is your WW clinging to you because she's drowning. It's normal and human. It's understandable. But also, dangerous. You could get drawn back into it in a way that does not heal this whole thing. You love her and your heart wants to go back to normal. But, right now, the person you love is a ghost. At this moment, the person you love does not exist. It's a fantasy. Maybe the person you fell for comes back, but it's not the person in front of you now.

At the end of my marriage (and yes it ended) I wanted my WW to be happy. It was clear that she was not happy with me and had not been for a long time. She was clinging to the security of our relationship and saving face but there was no "love" left for me. That had been gone a long time. And I couldn't put myself or her through that... A loveless marriage of convenience. So, I let her go find happiness. I considered it a kindness and I have no idea why.

And that's where your wife is now. It can't be love for you; she can't turn on a dime. I don't think that's how emotions work. At least, they don't work like that for me. What could happen is the turn on a dime to divorce, and she's trying to avoid that.

Maybe you two work out. Maybe you don't. But I would not put much faith in a letter that blames Jesus for her woes. I'm sure she passed a church going to meet him. Their doors are always open. She could have walked through ok her own a hundred times without this guiding her.

See who she becomes. See what your relationship looks like. Protect yourself legally and don't be afraid of life after the end of a marriage.

If she just wants to save face, then two years down the line she could either be the perfect partner or she could be the one saying "he never really got over it and we realized we were fundamentally flawed as a couple so I ended it" OR "he was so absent because of his work that I fell in love. I tried to make it work but he became abusive so I had to leave."

Again, no idea who she is or how she is. Maybe give it time, maybe not, but everything happening right now... I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Also, if you want a beer I might be close to your area. God speed man.

Also I think she admitted in the letter she did things sexually for the OM she’s never done or offered for you. How does that sit with you?

But her note reeks of justification, rationalization, manipulation, minimization and blame shifting.

....and you in 10 years, no better then you are now.

Well her letter was a start. Improvement will occur as she learns more of her role in all of this. Her current counsellor is the pastor who we would all agree that infidelity would be beyond his capability.

Linda McDonalds book, 'How to help your spouse heal..' would be beneficial. So would IC with a counsellor who specializes in Infidelity.

There is a train of thought that you should wait for up to 6 months to decide whether to R or D, allowing you to be able to make the best decision without excessive emotions. However, with some, their lines are firm and they know what they can live with/without.

Do'nt be overly excessive in interpreting what she writes or says. Her actions will be what speaks volumes.

Do not go to the pastor - it will be a “prayer session” to force you to take the blame and rug sweep.

Instead search Google for “So Your Christian Wife Cheated on You” with the name “Dalrock” and read the three articles.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but a Proverbs 30:20 woman who wants you to take the blame is just trying to hide from her own sin and trying to make you a scapegoat.

BHs - You aren't listening to everything here.

She was his one and only sexually. It has been so many years, he isn't going to leave her without a fight/chance. He even is worried about things like his business while pondering divorce. I knew I would be screwed if I finished my divorce with my wife. Money wasn't what it was about and I filed by the time I was at his point.

I agree not to go to the pastor. I would suggest you get those boundaries written up and a clear line of things that make you pull the pin on the divorce grenade.

What I did was fill out the paper work and submit it. Best $350 I ever spent. She couldn't fix herself fast enough.

I wrote on the envelope with the paperwork what it was going to take to stop the divorce. She searched and found it once, then apologized and told me what she did instead of hide that bull crap like she used too. I stopped it after 2-3 months out of the 12. We hadn't even started the part where you see the family court for the kids.

She does the two things I really wanted, she says sorry every time I am angry because she knows it is her fault and stopped telling me not to tell people about the affair. It involved her swallowing her ego and learning to talk to me and other people about her problems.

Kind of where your wife needs to get to.

Like I said earlier, start filling out that sheet of paper and let us help you with that.

If guys like Hallmack weren't done, I don't think you are going to divorce on this alone.

Lastly, you need to look her in the eye and mention she never gets to blame the marriage problems on you again. If she does, you will consciously or subconsciously pull up the affair again.

Every marriage has issues. She doesn't realize she rolled in the mud and horse crap and is now asking for a hug.

Guys, lets stop ripping apart her letter and talk more about how he gets out of infidelity with R as well as D.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 11:25 AM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

I am sooo angry reading her response that my head is spinning trying to figure out how a person could think like that, let alone type it out!!!!!

She simply doesn’t get it!!!!

She never will get it!!!!

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Call the lawyer first thing tomorrow and

FILE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jesus may forgive her, but that doesn’t mean you have to!!!!!

She is a loss cause with the blame shifting and ZERO REMORSE!!!!!

Don’t even give it a thought as to doing the work that she should be doing!!!!

You are ultimately getting divorced! It is just a question of when and how much more pain you are willing to Let her inflict on you before you scream, “ENOUGH!”

Sorry, but I think even the most rabid RAAC (Reconcile At All Costs) Warriors will admit that she is no where near even being a mediocre candidate for reconciliation.

Stop the pain. File tomorrow!!!!!!

You deserve better than this!!! Hell, the most miserable/mean person in the world deserves better than this!!!!

A few posts ago, I made a joke about why divorces cost so much...... because they are worth it. That joke has hit the bull eyes in your case.

Stop the pain. FILE ASAP!!!!!

Now, head up & shoulders back

Be proud of who and what you are.... a loyal and faithful husband and good Dad! Show you kids how a real man acts when betrayed like this! Refuse to accept, and cut the cancer out of your life!!!

If you don’t cut that cancer out of your life, what will your kids think of you down the road????? Will you actually be able to look at yourself in the mirror??? Do you really think you have a chance at being happy with her ever again????

You know what you must do. If you need any further evidence of who and what she really is, just reread her email!!!!

[This message edited by Newlifeisgreat at 8:05 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

You may be tempted by her passionate reply (and reference to God) to feel sorry for her or think she's onboard to being a safe partner. Please don't.

There's a good chance that she may be someday (but she's not yet on the path to being safe for you).

IMO, since it's only been 3 weeks since D day, I don't expect much from either of you. You're both heading in the right direction - but still have a long way to go.

IMO, you both made progress today. You moving forward to exit infidelity by R or D (with no time constraint).

Her - to make herself a safe partner. She hasn't taken full responsibility yet and therefore, she's far from becoming a safe partner.

I'm not sure she fully understands your pain. You pushed her hard with the letter and there's a good chance she'll come around (but think months).

1 - Insist on the timeline subject to a polygraph.

2 - Insist on IC (where you have access to everything) for her by a specialist in infidelity.

3 - Have her read those books ...

4 - Have a postnup drawn up and/or a settlement in case of D -

5 - Get the clock ticking: file for D

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 7:54 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

What is your next step(s)?

What do you think of her response?

Stop ripping apart the letter.

One can safely assume he posted the letter in order to get crowdsourced reactions to the contents. That’s precisely why sites like SI exist — so why would we preemptively take off the table the advantage he has in garnering our thoughts?

Critiquing the letter helps OP see through the haze of the WW’s bullshit. It also identified several things he should avoid, like her attempt to entrap him in a whitewashing struggle session with the pastor.

He, in the other hand appreciated that part of my femininity and valued it more and I blindly fell for it.

This part made me angry. Oh yeah-- shocking that a seasoned player with three affairs under his belt was able to make yet another notch think he "appreciated her femininity."

Did you tell her about his other conquests in your e-mail? How does she feel having traded being someone's one and only in exchanged for being someone's latest fling?

I didn't realize you were the real reason and the biggest reason that all this happened. It sure read that way.

And, she just had to be used by this man in every way he wanted because of you and he gave her all these things she wanted from you (porn star sex in hot lingerie apparently).

With what she has written, she'll have everyone, everywhere absolutely convinced that you were the biggest problem and she was just seeking comfort elsewhere, so cold and rejecting you were. She's back to Christ, finally, and she sees the error in her ways. Christ can forgive her, why can't you?

Be careful about the "pastor this" and the "pastor that". What do you know about this "pastor". The pastor may be her next source of comfort.

I see that she is 50% responsible for the issues in your marriage and you're responsible for 75% of the A. Jesus is responsible for the other 25% of the A.

Get a timeline without all the mush and gush and oh, the OM was nice and I needed something, and get the real X rated view of what she really did. The individual and the categories of sex acts, the frequency, in their different renditions. After she writes it all out, have her read it to you, line by line so you can discuss it.

Honestly I had a very hard time getting through that big pile of steaming mush. My eyes were bleeding from the deflection, minimization and failing to own anything of this stinking relationship she was in.

And what's all that "I broke it off" and he convinced me to come back. What was that about? Coming back to some new sexual nuance he might have thought up? Did going back, over and over, "fill what was missing" between the two of you. In effect she had a series of A's with this POSOM rich pig pile of garbage.

Make sure she knows she was affair #4. Just so she'll know how special she really was and how meaningful it was for their future. It's time she realizes she was just a sex plaything who was all in on being a man's whore. And when all that was going on, he was pressuring her to offer you NOTHING. And now, he's moved on to the next special one.

I don't want to make it sound like that's the WORST non-apology I've ever seen, but man, she went from claiming she didn't have enough Jesus in her life straight on to blaming YOU. And sure, she countered all that with "my Affair was never about you or anyone else", but what stood out the most for me was "I wish one day you would realize your part of what went wrong too". She doesn't get it. And I suppose that's fairly typical of WS in the JFO stage with their logic still completely contorted. I think you'd have to have a real discussion with her about what the fuck is WRONG in her character which allowed cheating to be a viable option in her decision tree AT ALL. Right now, it looks like pure, undiluted vanity, which makes me a little sick on your behalf if I'm honest.

I think the question you're going to need to ask yourself is what exactly does she bring to your life that you can't get somewhere else? Sure, she's the mother of your children and you've got a long backstory, but these are the responses of a teenager, not a grown woman. All the typical WS excuses are there: "I didn't think you cared", "I compartmentalized", "I was addicted", "I made a mistake", etc. etc. It's skin-deep, without true introspection, without the maturity one might expect from a woman of her years. I found myself actively disliking her by the end... which is weird, because I'm usually really open to finding something to work with.

I dunno. If I were you and I was still leaning toward D, I'd go ahead and file. If you're not leaning toward D, maybe consider a 6-month separation so she can get some therapy and pull her head out of her hindquarters. She needs to be able to verbalize what has gone off in her personal values system which allows for cheating. And those traits have nasty names.

Most WS stop working at low-budget items like "poor self-esteem" or "poor self-control", but dig deeper and you find: narcissistic tendencies, grandiosity, passive-aggressiveness, personality disorders, thrill seeking, avoidant attachments, etc. etc. There's something ugly way down deep which has to be found and pulled out by the roots. Unless that happens, your cheater will never truly change. Cheaters can stop cheating, sure. But until they do the hard work, the capacity for it is just under the surface, lurking. And it will spookily peek out at you from time to time, making you wonder wtf you were thinking to stay. Ask me how I know.

I wish I could tell you that your WW's letter back to you wasn't chock-full of wayward thinking, but there was enough of it there to give me the willies on your behalf. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's beyond redemptive hope for R. She's gonna be a total tear-down though and no mistake. Be sure she's worth the effort before you give up the freedom that's within your grasp. You're still a young man.

ETA: Therapy with the pastor isn't good enough. She would need a therapist who's well-qualified in infidelity and who doesn't take any bullshit off her. Therapists are a crap-shoot anyway, so it needs to be someone with a good reputation. The litmus test question is "Do you believe that cheating is a marital problem or a character problem?" Any therapist who can't verbalize very quickly that it's about character should be bypassed. If you decide to go forward with R, don't be bashful about asking these kind of questions. It is, after all, YOUR life at stake.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:42 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

Hey AH;

Well at least you know more, attitude, anger, sex, clothing, presents. Burn the last two. 50% blame for issues in the marriage, 100% blame for infidelity is on WW.

Sorry it was never a mistake, she planned, lied to you and your children. Her mindset of the first boundary crossed, that first brush of her face, that lingering hug, the first kiss, the first make out, the first disrespect, the first fantasy of 'if I didn't have children', 'this is all on hubby', 'he never wanted sexy cloths, anal, swallow etc'. These all aren't mistakes they are deliberate actions. She is his fourth A, how does she feel about that? Christ fault? Your fault?

I am not slinging mud at the religious, but could it not be argued that it was God's plan for me to be his #4 and bang him in the most disrespectful ways?

Please meet with the church member so you know what he is passing onto WW so to come back to the light. Look for blame shifting and rug sweeping. Explain your view 50% blame, 100% responsibility. What qualifications and training does he have in infidelity? The school of hard knocks or just what he feels?

HE doesn't have to agree but should know where you are and why. Hopefully WW wont form a EA with this person. Replace one with another.

Communication, I fully understand your hurt and dis trust do what you feel is right the 180, grey rock etc. However; (this is just me), talk can only help say in short periods say five or 10 minutes at a time. Keep to a script and not let the reptilian brain take over. If anger rears its ugly head, walk away. Once words are spoken they can never be unheard. Do what you did, write them out.

Touch is good a gentle back rub, a hug like you wanted the other night or a gentle gesture never hurt anyone. I am not saying R.

R or D is up to you, this is just to help you.

Also from a different viewpoint, very good words from Chamomile tea

One day at a time.

Buffer

[This message edited by Buffer at 11:36 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

So not much has changed since your talk : “ a dash of remorse, 2 spoons of regrets, 1 cup of blame shifting“, which is too bad. There are a few positive point in the response, but she refuses to take responsibility for what she has done.

And when I read it, there was still some names that need to be removed.

The reality is like this: The OM enjoys hitting on married women, he showered your WW with compliments on purpose. She liked it and couldn’t stop getting her fix. Ego kibbles in exchange for sex, and your WW doesn’t even realize how she was used.

Imagine an alcoholic wife that gets very drunk and, the next day blames her spouse. “If only you had paid more attention to me, and showed me more love, I would never have touched the bottle”.

So the question is, again, why did you send that letter? What was your goal? If it was to know whether there’s a chance for R, then the answer is she is not there at this point in time.

The thing is, you have always been you. The AH of 25 years ago is pretty much the same as the AH 10 years ago.. as the AH 2 years ago, as of today.

28 years ago, you were the perfect guy to marry. 10 years ago, a great husband. 2 years ago, you were so bad, you pushed her to cheat. Today, you’re the perfect husband again. Wait, what?

Why don’t you show that letter to your friends that went through infidelity? It might help to have a face to face conversation. At the very least, you need a break and get some real life support.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 10:06 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

How do you break this down further than it already has been? There are some things that jump out to me.

I know you don’t believe me, but the truth is even when I resented you, I never stopped loving you and never could get myself to leave you. Before you say it, I know that I was selfish for thinking I could keep both lives going parallel, I was stupid for falling for it, I realize now That I was wrong about you, and that I took you for granted and didn’t appreciate you.

There is some truth in this statement. She resented you. But what did she resent? She resented that you did not spend enough time with her? Resented that she had to seek attention outside the marriage? What did she resent? I always hated the “I realize now…” statement. She says that she tried to tell you. She did not do it in a way that you would hear. She was not direct. If she was direct, you would have heard. I believe that. She was passive aggressive. She is rewriting the marital history with how the marriage was. She is not being honest.

I acted like an addicted and entitled teenager and to be honest with you I’m still struggling to get over the whole situation and would love the support you have always provided. However, I wish one day you would realize your part of what went wrong too.

To me this is a terrible statement. She basically saying to me is she still has feeling for the POS OM and she wants you to help her get over him. Then on top of that, she wants you to ease her troubles by taking some of the blame for what she did. HELL NO. And I mean HELL NO. She must take full black for the mess she caused without blame shifting at all.

You said that I went out of my way to humiliate you, again I’m so sorry you feel that way, I hope you realize that you are too good of a man to be humiliated, No one knows you more than me no one now what kind of man you are more than me.

The worst thing to say is, I am sorry you feel that way. This is not an apology. This is an acknowledgement that what you believe is true. She attempts to say that you are too good to be humiliated but facts are facts, they did things that they knew were humiliating to you. This alone would shows just how much she has to go just to be remorseful. She is barely regretful.

I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t even consider you or the kids during that time. I managed to live two separate lives suppressing any feeling of guilt. Don’t get me wrong I knew what I was doing and tried to end it many times but like a drug addict I was too week to stop it.

Here is more truth here. Admitting that she did not think of you or the children is true. Then she lies after telling the truth. “I was too weak to stop it”? No, she did not want to stop it. There have been WWs on here that ended their affairs and never went back. She wanted that attention and she is not being honest when she says she tried to stop it. If she wanted to. She would have.

You said that I gave him what was precious to us and that I dressed up for him, thought about what I could do for him and that I did things for him, emotionally, romantically, sexually that I never did for you. Yes I did all that and to be honest reading it the way you wrote it made me hate myself more. I wish I could change that, there is no excuse or debate about how wrong I was. The only thing I want to add and please do not take it the wrong way I’m just stating the truth, you did not want any of that, You rejected all my intimacies you cared less if I dressed sexy or not, before reading your email I was convinced that you didn’t want anything like that from me. Correct me if I’m wrong. He, in the other hand appreciated that part of my femininity and valued it more and I blindly fell for it. I’m not arguing that I was wrong for allowing him that. All I want is a chance to let you have my femininity for you only.

Here is another point that just drove me mad. She says that “there is no excuse or debate about how wrong I was”. Then what does she do? She starts to give excuses on how you did not care for what she offered POS OM. He appreciated it; you didn’t. He valued it; you didn’t. But now she wants you to have the same tainted prize she gave freely away to POS OM. She does not know that her femininity means nothing now. And I would tell her this.

The happiest I’ve been was when we had no money living in a one-bedroom apartment with an infant. I would give everything I have to re-live one of those days. I remember how scared we were when we were pregnant but once we had Emily we never looked back. It wasn’t about his money believe me, thank god we have more than enough.

Here is another piss me off moment. She is using a memory to try and draw you in. This is very manipulative to me.

You asked why I haven’t ended communication with him, I did I swear and blocked him. Last thing he heard from me was that I would put a restraining order if he ever contact me.

Did she show proof of this? If this is true then this is a positive. But I have a hard time believing it.

You said that I’m not remorseful but just regret being caught and want to save face in front of our family. You are correct about wanting to save face, but that’s not all. I want to do what’s right period. And what’s right is to save marriage and be the best wife and mother I can be, I’m educating myself about what a remorseful spouse should do and how to act and how a mother should behave in front of her children.

She is admitting that she is not remorseful here to me. But she wants to be and she will learn the dogma on what to say and how to act. Terrible. Does she truly want to be remorseful? She needs to truly apologize without blaming at all. She needs to find out why she truly cheated. Not just saying she left Jesus is enough. She needs to find her whys. That takes time. Listening to the WWs that did the work, it took about 6 months to a year to get truly remorseful. Her list is nice. To save the marriage she is at least recognizing some of the things she need to do. And I am surprised that she is looking to change careers. But she has a long way to go. To be honest, D seems to be the right call in this case. And, if she is willing to go through with the divorce, and still try and improve herself, and still wants to be married to you, and willing to do the work for real, then you can always stop the divorce. I am praying for you man.

[This message edited by WilliamM at 10:33 PM, July 28th (Tuesday)]

28 years ago, you were the perfect guy to marry. 10 years ago, a great husband. 2 years ago, you were so bad, you pushed her to cheat. Today, you’re the perfect husband again. Wait, what?

This is so good. So good. Meanwhile AH, while you were the same you, your WW decided to turn into a batshit crazy space alien and won’t even own it.