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And I am shocked by RAAC (Reconcile At All Costs) Warriors here who are still talking about reconciliation!!!

Who are these "RAAC Warriors"??

All I see is people helping AH explore his options. And as close to DDay as he is, that's not a bad thing. His marriage is as salvageable as any other at this point. Most of us have seen successful R beginning with worse. His decision is his and his alone. He shouldn't feel pressured one way or the other. If he chooses what's right for HIM, I think the vast majority of us will be happy that he's making a choice he can live with.

If we're going to divide into camps, why is the advice of the "RAAC Warriors" any less competent than that of the "Burn the Witch Mob"?? Maybe, it would be better not to divide into camps at all? Maybe we could each just provide whatever thoughts, insights, or resources we think might be helpful?

This thread is becoming a dividing rod.

The both of you are exiting infidelity- but from entirely separate POV's. As a result, both of you are trying to find your ballast. TT and things like that are to be expected, and for a variety of reasons.

I could quote you a lot of scripture- and in full context and not bother to put my own spin on it. But here's the thing. Given her infidelity background, you are under no scriptural obligations so far as I can tell. So lay religion aside for now.

She has done what she has done. Religion isn't going to undo it from man's perspective. God remembers our sins no more when confessed, but that is God's job, not yours.

Your job is to wait this out and see, as time goes along, whether you want to R. It's only up to you and you alone. But if you do, you have a part of the R you have to uphold as well. It may take one to betray, but it takes two to R. Yes, it's an unbalanced equation, but so be it.

My suggestions in the meantime is to be true to your emotions, but I have a concern about those who suggest making her your human punching bag when she seems to be reaching out- albeit imperfectly. Yes, practice the 180. Yes, detach from her. Yes, be upset and angry. But these things swerve a purpose for your healing, and it isn't to unleash every ounce of cruelty on her you can muster simply for that sake.

If you D, you D. If you R, you R. Just make sure it's the right thing for you and not what anyone else thinks.

I'm a BS. DD was September 2017, I've been here ever since but this is only my 5th post.

As a BS who did all the wrong things, you won't believe how well you are handling such an awful situation. It's one of the worst experiences you will ever face, don't be too hard on yourself.

As a Christian, I understand what your WW means when she says she had an affair because she stopped letting Jesus drive, I suspect you do as well.

A lot of people take her letter to mean she doesn't get it, but very few WW get it fully. It takes time (which you may decide you don't wish to give her) but she is trying. I don't read it as blame shifting, she's just trying to articulate how she got where she was.

My wife and I are reconciled, and what I've learnt is that the hardest thing you'll face is not forgiving her, but forgiving yourself for staying with someone who treated you so badly. It may require you to compromise yourself and your values. From what you are writing, it seems to me that's going to be the hardest bit for you (so much more than forgiving her).

I should also add that time heals and WW can change. But only you can decide if to D or R.

AH,

Very good advice, for and against R, and D. Lots of views as well to WW response to your letter, looking at the wording, contents etc.

All I can add is think about what you can accept, seek advice from reliable sources prior to acting. Legal advice is a must prior to acting in relation to D. Things can be discussed when served, mediation is specifically for that. To hit home the ramifications of her actions some are saying to serve her at her place of employment to get her to understand the hurt.

One day at a time.

Buffer

How many wayward spouses "get it" right away? A very low percentage I'd guess. She doesn't have the knowledge base at this point. I'd venture to guess a lot of waywards here on SI could have written a response like your WW's (or worse) because they don't have the knowledge early on. That's why if R is even remotely on your radar she needs to begin the journey to get that knowledge. This is through a qualified infidelity therapist. One of the first things for her to understand is this thought process she has that you need to own up to your marital shortcomings. As you can see, her inability to see this properly is very upsetting to us betrayed.

[This message edited by Tseratievig at 2:13 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

This thread is becoming a dividing rod.

I would agree that putting posters into camps is unhelpful.

I'm looking hard for instances where people said to turn his WW into a punching bag, but frankly that seems to be a straw man set up and knocked down for some reason.

Examining her letter for textual data and placing it under a close analysis is not turning her into a punching bag.

What most seem to be saying is that upon close examination her letter seems to be mostly blameshifting, rationalization, a nice dash of DARVO and plenty of me, me, me narcissism with some throwaway lines that indicate regret.

That's not much to work with. I would never tell AH what to do. it's his life.

However, her letter seems indicative of someone who is not really great R material -- paritcularly in light of her two year affair in which she planned specifically on when and how to leave him, and participated gleefully in humiliating him. And now delivers a non-apology apology for it.

The crib notes regarding her "Jesus take the wheel" emphasis I believe are necessary in this case. The scriptural examinations also. Especially in light of the WW pushing for AH to meet with the pastor. There are a lot of misguided approaches cycling in evangelical circles these days and with the increasing rates of female infidelity, much of it seems aimed at having a betrayed husband take the blame on his shoulders. The misuse of Hoseas's wife and the misuse of Jesus teaching on divorce are two of the most egregious and most common examples.

Betrayed husbands are often unprepared for being blindsided or sideswiped with this material, taken out of context and misapplied as a form of proof texting, and so it's good to be prepared with solid information.

It serves no one to ignore it or to avoid giving AH good advice because it's uncomfortable. We wouldn't do that on any other front in which it was clear his wife was trying to elide or mislead.

For instance, we tell betrayed husband's all the time to be prepared for a WW to possibly foment false DV charges because we all know that it unfortunately happens far too often. We tell them all the time to avoid MC as a waste of time and money in the wake of infidelity bc MC’s tend to encourage rugsweeping and enable blameshifting and trickle truth. I certainly wish someone had warned me about MC.

We'd be doing a disservice to a BH if we didn't forewarn them. In this case, because the WW seems prepared to invoke Jesus as a kind of shield to ward off transparency, the scriptural references are no different. He should be forewarned so he can help educate ill informed pastors who misuse Scripture to justify rugsweeping.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:49 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

AH

This is just todo much for a day

Hiw r u doing?

Good luck

As a Christian, I understand what your WW means when she says she had an affair because she stopped letting Jesus drive, I suspect you do as well.

There are a lot of Christians here, and we all understood the reference. It's just that in the context of the entire letter, it rang incredibly hollow and had the quality of moralistic therapeutic deism. It seemed like an obligatory throwaway line rather than genuine metanoia.

Oh and she felt so guilty and wanted to break up so much that she posed nude so he could Have something to remember

I do hope for the children's sake no other pictures were taken that could find their way onto the internet to been seen forever

You described it the best when you said that I shot you with a revolver in a chest while enjoying it. Although I think what I was doing is I was having too much fun aiming at paper target thinking I wouldn’t hurt anyone just to realize that you were standing right behind my paper target, my fun bullets went through the papers into your chest. I knew all along you were there behind my paper target but convinced myself I wouldn’t get you, because we’ve ignored each other for so long that I forgot where you were standing.

What? What the??? What kind of pseudo-mental-gymnastic-gibberish is this shit?

AH how did your head not wobble and pop off your neck when you read this passage. Of all the sanctimonious lines of bullshit I have ever read, this passage takes the cake.

AH your WW has some balls man. Cajones grandes!

[This message edited by Westway at 3:13 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

What? What the??? What kind of pseudo-mental-gymnastic-gibberish is this shit?

Exactly. Thank you Westway.

“Fun bullets”

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:41 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

I do hope for the children's sake no other pictures were taken that could find their way onto the internet to been seen forever

I am sure the affair scumbag is such a gentleman he would never indecently expose AHguy's wife to the world forever!

***

AHguy, my thought is this - the question so many ask is "Can she be a safe partner?"

I think before you can worry about that whatsoever, you need to decide if you can accept what she did, and live with her as a happily married couple, or will you always have resentment of her and resentment of yourself for compromising your own values?

The immediate reaction for almost all Betrayed Spouses, but in particular husbands, is they want to "win back their wife".

But what are you really winning back? What often happens is as time goes by, the and the intensity of sudden loss fades, the betrayed spouse finds that they no longer want to share their life with somebody who can willfully hurt them so bad, someone who so horribly compromised themselves, their family, and their vows.

Many men eventually just feel grossed out and repulsed and they no longer want to look at or touch the wife that they "won back". I am sure many women feel this way too.

So before you figure out if she can ever be a safe partner for you going forward (I doubt it), think about if you really really want someone like her in your life until you die (I doubt that too).

Your choice brother, take your time and choose wisely.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:45 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

Let Jesus and her cherished memories of her affair keep her warm at night now.

She will also be busy with whatever parenting workbook she gets, as she doesn’t seem to know how to act around kids, by her own admission.

I wasn't going to comment on your thread because I don't like to be negative to people who obviously love the WS and hope to reconcile, and your case was one of the worst I've read here in terms of the WS's behavior toward their BS. Having read your WS's email, however, I'm going to jump in.

That email was terrible. I think there's a reason she didn't send the other drafts after reading them over, and why she had to send the email she did send without reading it over first. If she had read that email, and then sent it, she couldn't excuse what was written.

That email was pure blame shifting crap. She turned away from Jesus??? Really? She tried to be sexy for you but you turned her down? Is that accurate, or was there a time when she complained about your requests for sexual activities or she accused you of only being with her for sex if you asked her to "dress up" for you? And you, not wanting your wife to think that was true, decided not to pursue her for other activities or sexy dress up.

She said she's in counseling, is that with the Pastor? Because unless she's getting some really good professional counseling, I wouldn't hold out much hope for her becoming a good candidate for reconciliation. She just doesn't seem to "get it."

Divorce sucks, in all ways. Emotionally, financially, etc. But you know what's worse? Spending time trying to reconcile with someone who wants to blame you, even a little bit, for their cheating.

[This message edited by justastatistic at 4:03 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

In the jurisdiction I'm in' AH, the initial divorce document is an intent to D. After that is the documents laying out the division of assets and other things like child support, etc. That is covered in the Separation Agreement. And after that is the divorce decree, itself.

The initial filing is the intent which starts the clock ticking and the calendar flipping. I'm of the opinion to have her served very quickly. Even after the Judge signed my Divorce Decree there was a 30 day "cooling off" period in case I changed my mind. That was after 4 years since DDay1 and over 2 years of separation.

These things don't occur in an instant. Serve her and start the process even if you don't finish it.

AH,

I took the time to out my opinion on most of your WW statements. My opinion is that it’s not all bad or all good, I hope it helps with your decision making, at the risk of being labeled RAAC.

You asked why I had an affair my answer is so simple, I drifted away from Jesus Christ and decided to steer my way on my own and failed miserably.

Blame shifting and rug sweeping. There’s no simple answer and lots of digging is required

How can I fix it? Simply to give back the steering wheel to Jesus.

“The fix is simple, I don’t want to do the hard work.”

I lied to you to my kids to everyone even to myself, and I hurt all of us. You described it the best when you said that I shot you with a revolver in a chest while enjoying it.

Taking some responsibilities

Although I think what I was doing is I was having too much fun aiming at paper target thinking I wouldn’t hurt anyone just to realize that you were standing right behind my paper target, my fun bullets went through the papers into your chest. I knew all along you were there behind my paper target but convinced myself I wouldn’t get you, because we’ve ignored each other for so long that I forgot where you were standing.

I was so much in the fog, getting my ego kibble fix, like a drug addict, that I forgot about you

You said I should’ve shouted at you that You were losing me and should’ve ended our marriage before starting a new relationship. You are right! I should have and I did shout at you many times and begged you too, I told you our marriage was in trouble didn’t I? but you disagreed and I honestly thought you didn’t care at that time, only seeing you in pain now made me realize that you care.

Blame shifting. She is always free to divorce at anytime, the reality is that she wanted both a husband and a BF

but that’s not what this email is about. True, I should have ended my marriage before starting a new relationship, but I never wanted to do neither.

Exactly

I know you don’t believe me, but the truth is even when I resented you, I never stopped loving you and never could get myself to leave you. Before you say it, I know that I was selfish for thinking I could keep both lives going parallel, I was stupid for falling for it,

Yes it’s good that she realizes that, and she still doesn’t know how much a POS the OM is. She should be hating him by now. Does she?

I realize now That I was wrong about you, and that I took you for granted and didn’t appreciate you. I really suggest you open your heart to “Pastor” he is a wise man; he opened my eyes to understand your ways of expressing love, I was really blind and unappreciative to you AH.

Pastor might not be the best person to talk to but someone had to tell her love can be expressed in many different ways.

I acted like an addicted and entitled teenager and to be honest with you I’m still struggling to get over the whole situation

It takes a lot of time to get one’s head out of his ass after leaving it there for 2 years, one gets used to it.

and would love the support you have always provided.

It’s not up to AH to do that, she can figure it out on her own

However, I wish one day you would realize your part of what went wrong too.

Pure blame shifting. Help!!! my eyes keeps on rolling. Make it stop!

You said that I went out of my way to humiliate you, again I’m so sorry you feel that way, I hope you realize that you are too good of a man to be humiliated,

She’s not listening, she has no idea how this feels. Try some empathy

No one knows you more than me no one now what kind of man you are more than me.

Rings hollow after 2 years of cheating.

Like I wrote above I was stupid to aim at a paper target knowing you were right behind it.

It’s not stupid, it’s cruel and selfish

My Affair was never about you or anyone else,

True, it’s only about her and how broken she is

it started from a platonic friendship and escalated to full Affair in a matter of few months. I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t even consider you or the kids during that time.

True, it’s only about her and how broken she is

I managed to live two separate lives suppressing any feeling of guilt.

True, it’s only about her and how broken she is

Don’t get me wrong I knew what I was doing and tried to end it many times but like a drug addict I was too week to stop it. It wasn’t about the sex or replacing you, it wasn’t about him either. I don’t know exactly what it was about,

She’s like a drug addict and her drug is ego kibbles. Sex was not important to her, it was her mode of payment. It was about getting what she needs even if it destroy everybody else around her. It was about HER.

hopefully I can find out. But one thing for sure you are a complete man, there was nothing about you that made me betray you.

This is true

From sexuality standpoint, if that’s your concern, you are much superior.

You said that I gave him what was precious to us and that I dressed up for him, thought about what I could do for him and that I did things for him, emotionally, romantically, sexually that I never did for you. Yes I did all that and to be honest reading it the way you wrote it made me hate myself more.

This is despicable.

I wish I could change that, there is no excuse or debate about how wrong I was. The only thing I want to add and please do not take it the wrong way I’m just stating the truth, you did not want any of that, You rejected all my intimacies you cared less if I dressed sexy or not, before reading your email I was convinced that you didn’t want anything like that from me. Correct me if I’m wrong.

She’s wrong, pure blame shifting bullshit. Thanks to her, an internet stranger lost his appetite for dinner.

He, in the other hand appreciated that part of my femininity and valued it more and I blindly fell for it.

He valued free sex with a married woman and some humiliation of her husband to feed his ego. She’s like a prostitute to him, except, cheaper.

I’m not arguing that I was wrong for allowing him that.

Except that she is.

All I want is a chance to let you have my femininity for you only.

You said that I would not do the hard work to win you back and it would be better for me to go be with him. I say why don’t you try me?

Why not? /sarcasm

That’s all I’m asking for, one chance or even half of a chance. I know you don’t believe it but I never wanted to be with him, all the messages you read were a pack of lies that we exchanged.

It was all fantasy, not sure how much she realizes this.

I don’t care about his money. I know more than anyone else that money will not buy happiness. The happiest I’ve been was when we had no money living in a one-bedroom apartment with an infant. I would give everything I have to re-live one of those days. I remember how scared we were when we were pregnant but once we had E**** we never looked back. It wasn’t about his money believe me, thank god we have more than enough.

I think she’s sincere

Why I would want to do the hard work? Because I owe it to you, to the kids and also to myself. And I understand that you need time to accept me and my mistakes.

It’s not a mistake, those are thousands of choices and decisions she made.

But like I promised before I would do anything to make it right. All I’m asking is to try me,

You asked why I haven’t ended communication with him, I did I swear and blocked him. Last thing he heard from me was that I would put a restraining order if he ever contact me. Here is the number his wife asked for 804******,

I think this is believable and a good step

even if you left me I wouldn’t reach him because I have caused too much damages to his wife and kids already.

Ok, but if he leaves his wife, then what?

If I can ask you a favor, I would love to talk to her and apologize to her in person, I would let her say whatever she wants and will answer any question she might have.

This is a good step

You said that I’m not remorseful but just regret being caught and want to save face in front of our family. You are correct about wanting to save face, but that’s not all.

Admitting this is a good step

I want to do what’s right period. And what’s right is to save marriage and be the best wife and mother I can be, I’m educating myself about what a remorseful spouse should do and how to act and how a mother should behave in front of her children

Semantic aside, SI expects WW to figure out what to do so a good step.

Things I did so far to make myself ready:

1- I ‘m giving my life back to my saver Jesus Christ.

2- I ended the affair.

3- I’m actively looking for not just a new job but a new carrier

4- I’m in counseling

5- I’m willing to give you access to my phone, computer, tablet, emails and everything you might want.

6- I’m letting know where I’m everytime I leave our house and willing to let you GPS my car if you want to. And

7- Most importantly, my to do sheet is available for you to add anything you think necessary.

Those are also positive steps, except #1, often asked for R

I'm wondering way you find it so difficult to tell your wife that you see you didn't give her the support she wished for. She has told you that she sees what you did for her and your marriage and she was only seeing herself and didn't acknowledge all that you were doing. To some it may seem that such and acknowledgement would make you appear weak. I don't think so. Maybe you don't tell her because it's your way or the highway. I've been on SI a few years. (I actually started reading because I retired and had lots of time to do anything I wanted) I find that no matter what a WS says or admits too, there are going to be a vast majority that disagree with everything they say. If a WS wrote an admission in blood and then committed suicide there are those who would say the WS was just trying to make the BS feel guilty and trying to manipulate the BS. And, no matter what a BS decides many are not going to agree with their decision. That's because everyone is making judgements influenced by their own past situation. Try to take that in consideration when reading these posts, even mine.

You could decide to reconcile and live a long and happy life or a completely miserable one. You could divorce, sell everything, divide everything up, part ways and try to begin again. No matter what you do it is not going to affect anyone who gave you advice. In a year from now they will be advising someone else on their situation and have no thought of you. What you decide is not going to affect me, or any of them, in the least. A year from now I may be clipping my rose bushes or cleaning my guns and suddenly wonder what ever happened to AHguy. The only thing that will really matter is what you want, what you decide and living with those wants and decisions. I have read so many times, "I just can't live with that". Believe me there are a lot of things you can live with if it means doing something for those you love and having a peaceful life. Been there, done that. Remember, I have my own list. I will be first in line to tell you to run far and fast if your life, as of now, will never change. You and her are the only ones that can change things and YOU are the only one who has to make a decision. Neither will have any affect on anyone, except you, who is on this forum. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 4:19 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

I'm wondering way you find it so difficult to tell your wife that you see you didn't give her the support she wished for.

Simple, because she'll equate this as her rationale for why she cheated. That is a fallacy. Cart before the horse. WW needs to find out what made her feel cheating was an acceptable response to his marital shortcomings. Down the road (way down the road), fine, let's get into that perceived MARITAL issue.

[This message edited by Tseratievig at 4:32 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

Good analysis ShutterHappy, and clear.

I didn’t realize until you pointed this out...

and would love the support you have always provided.

... that once again her words betray her.

She went on at length to blameshift and ostensibly portray the marriage in a bad light — yet in the same letter talks about what a quality man he is and how much support he has provided. “The support you have always provided”

And then she talks about how she wants to fight for a marriage that she spent several hundred words trashing.

Well, which is it lady?

This is why I contend that most infidelity happens in good marriages that could have been great had the WS put in a fraction as much effort as they did in the affair. But with adultery now in the mix they’ve taken a good marriage and turned it into a bad one.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:25 PM, July 29th (Wednesday)]

wondering way you find it so difficult to tell your wife that you see you didn't give her the support she wished for.

Maybe because that is a lie and he’s now realizing it? After all in her own letter she says she longs for the “support you have always provided.”

Always.

Or did you miss that?