SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The catalyst of the fight was your BW seeing one of your APs in her Facebook list of “People you may know,” correct?

This was evidence that your AP was scoping out your BW’s profile, and triggered your BW because the AP was comparing her own body (20s) to the BW’s post-child body. The insightful poster Zugzwang has said that his wife didn’t start to heal until his APs understood that they were not “all that” compared to his wife. Your admission that “skinny is more attractive,” while perhaps honest, and your defensiveness, have not addressed this weapon that you handed your APs. In Zugzwangs’s case, he had originally written NC letters with fond remembrances of his time with the APs what helped was a NC letter comparing them unfavorably with his wife.

Just another example of how cheating with a younger thinner AP can change a BS.

I’m scheduled to take the risk of surgical complications and five hours of general anesthesia at a hefty price tag in order to have a flatter stomach and perkier breasts in mid August.

I am someone who always prided myself in deciding for myself what’s important in life. Since I was young, I thought the people who valued the rare beanie babies, diamonds or Faberge eggs were fools. I looked at women on the plastic surgery merry go round with pity. I never wanted to model the plastic surgery mindset to my beautiful daughters. The old me would have given that $ to a good cause. Yet here I am. This is what I want. It’s not hard to figure out why.

The saddest part is I know that there will always be women who are younger and thinner who will be willing to have sex with my husband because he has money.

DevastatingDee..

Those are words from a beautiful man.

He was, indeed, a very beautiful man. And I am so glad I got to share such a large portion of my life with him.

Thank you

But also make sure you are being honest with yourself. For example, did you have the affairs because you

- Wanted skinny chicks?

- Wanted to be wanted by skinny chicks?

Do you see the difference? It is all the difference in the world.

The first is about looking in the cupboard for something to snack on. You are bored. The second is about feeling power, esteem, self-worth. You are wanted. You need to keep hearing it, because you probably don’t actually believe it yourself.

I have to be honest with this. It's gender reversed because I'm the WW. I'm definitely NOT a skinny chick. I'm a plump full figured mom. I felt so dumpy and frumpy for years. My husband loves and desires me completely at every size, but that still didn't alleviate my body image issues.

I wanted to be wanted by men who weren't my husband. Men who were different. I have to admit-- all 3 of my AP's fit a certain physical type, it was a type I always was drawn to when I was on vacation or out among strangers.

All 3 of my AP's were dark-skinned and tall. Two were really 'big-built' men who resembled NFL football players. The third guy was actually somewhat overweight but in a 'big dad-bod' way.

The two single AP's I had the sexual chats with had similar personalities, too. They seemed really 'dominant' and sexually forward. They were like Casanovas or ladies' men. At least they both came off that way to me.

I know I 'wanted to be wanted' by this type of man.

The funny thing is, all the men who openly flirted with me on the social website just happened to fit that type. When I described myself physically, the big, dark, football player types were the ones who seemed so eager to chat and befriend me. It was a strange attraction phenomenon.

I remember telling my last online AP that he was probably a Casanova and was doing this with other women too. He insisted he wasn't the type to chase around, he was "waiting for me only." Yeah. Then he played this mopey game of 'I'm never going to meet you, if you really like me you'd take the risk and come visit me.'

He put pressure on me in an uncomfortable way. Fantasy sexting was exciting. I wasn't ready for the reality of a real life PA.

But just like the poster in this thread who posted pictures of a human brain, I never really got to know these men by their minds, hearts and souls. I tried to, I tried friendship talk, but they only wanted it to be about sex. They didn't care to know me as a PERSON.

The sexually charged A's I had with these guys were EMPTY. Just empty and shallow. I was just a pair of t*ts and round bum. Just a cute voluptuous light skinned chick who could act playful and coquettish when she wanted to.

My husband is a man who loves and cares for me as both a lover and a person. Being a WW now, I broke his trust and any reason for him to respect me as a person now.

[This message edited by sodonewiththis23 at 9:40 PM, July 12th (Sunday)]

Chaos — I tried to PM you but can’t figure out how. I struggle with my ego, and I’m not sure if you can relate to this but it sounds like you are really attractive and I wonder how that impacts you re: your husband’s decision to cheat. Like you, I’ve always been told how beautiful I am. Pretty much daily, since I was in university (I was a late bloomer, lol). His AP was okay, but not perfect featured in any way, and flat-chested and bottom heavy. Distinctly pear shaped with no waist. Her eyebrows are thin and drawn on, she has a huge overbite and a facial tic. I can’t get my head around it. I really can’t. A male friend compared it to leaving his high-end sports car for a Chevy. I may be considerably more attractive than the AP, but he still cheated. Beyond the fact I truly loved him and had believed we were extremely happy (until he started sinking into an angry depression that preceded his paychotic episode by a couple months) I am so confounded by his decision to cheat with someone like her. I keep going back to the idea — why me? What I’ve tried to replace that thought with is— why not me? Far more beautiful women have been betrayed (Elin, Tiger Woods’ wife etc). So why not me? I keep repeating that to myself when I start to compare and get upset and confused. Why not me? Being beautiful doesn’t mean I’m special. Of course, knowing he would betray me with someone who is (on the prettier side of) plain, makes me feel vulnerable that he could literally be attracted to anyone. I swear on my life, when I went to confront her I was expecting nothing less than a 20-something fitness model. I mean I have defined abs etc and I figured the woman would have to be significantly younger and in better shape. I work on tv, for crying out loud, and my face has largely made my career. It was inconceivable that she be less attractive than me. But I met her and I just remember feeling stunned. Literally almost stunned silent. I think I even muttered something to her about expecting a fitness instructor, truth be told. Nope. She was a married mother of two in her forties. Her eyebrows were almost shaved to non-existence and she just looked a bit bizarre. I remember being so distracted by her facial tic (she constantly squashed her nose up to her eyebrows, and she just couldn’t stop). Still, I tormented myself for more than a year with comparisons. She had poreless skin and really beautiful, lustrous hair down to nearly her rear end. And I still (3 years later) am tormented by her damn glossy hair (mine is very long but color-damaged). I’m rambling here but I just wanted to reach out because maybe you can relate to some of what I’m feeling? I’m so glad this is an anonymous forum because I know how vain and conceited this all sounds and I hate that about myself. I have been struggling so much with all of this and I know my ego plays a part in my fury. It really does and that is so unbecoming of me, because I am no better (in fact, I’m of poorer character of many of the very kind-hearted BS here), and I’m frankly ashamed that I place such a value on looks. Sigh. I just feel bad for all betrayed spouses because we all do the damned comparison game. We are tormented wondering what our spouses found so incredibly desirable about their APs that they were willing to risk their families and lives for them. I think because of that, we imbue the AP’s with near-mythical characteristics. I started wondering if he was obsessed with stroking that lovely mane of hair all the time. If she was kinder or a better listener. Etc etc. ugh. I hate that any of us has to endure this. I hate the comparisons and the mind f-ckery of it all. Just wanted to get this out.

I tried friendship talk, but they only wanted it to be about sex. They didn't care to know me as a PERSON.

The sexually charged A's I had with these guys were EMPTY. Just empty and shallow. I was just a pair of t*ts and round bum. Just a cute voluptuous light skinned chick who could act playful and coquettish when she wanted to.

While I don't think many people realize it, what your describing isn't the least bit surprising to me. This is the "deal" in your typical A. I tell you whatever you want to hear and flatter you, you sleep with me. If you don't want that deal, you're looking in the wrong place (and it sounds like you were self-aware enough to realize it, most are not).

They seemed really 'dominant' and sexually forward. They were like Casanovas or ladies' men. At least they both came off that way to me.

Same thing here, anyone can be "dominant" and sexually forward when you've got nothing to lose; if it goes south, just try again with another AP.

We are tormented wondering what our spouses found so incredibly desirable about their APs that they were willing to risk their families and lives for them.

The AP was willing to sleep with them for a minimal investment of time/effort. It's not that they are the "best" or as you put it (and many do) some mythical goddess. It's much simpler and less wonderful than that, the cost/benefit analysis came down on the side of "this is easy enough, and I like sex". Now, the WHY they let themselves do that, that's an entirely different question. If someone left a 100 dollar bill on the counter at the deli and walked in to the bathroom, would you steal it? It's easy enough. I'm sure you like money. But you wouldn't steal it because you have a moral code that prohibits it right? But say you did steal it, would obsessing about the bill be the right thing for the cops to focus on in questioning? Why "that bill"? No, of course not, any bill will do, they all have the same utility. The real question, is "why did you steal when you knew it was wrong".

Now, I'm going to walk this back a little, this is the right question when you're dealing with a sexually motivated A, it's far more complicated when you're dealing with an "in love" WS (in love with the AP). But the sexually motivated AP, that's a really easy discussion because the "why" is obvious, it's the "why did you feel that was OK" that's the deeper question.

This is an interesting post. I understand what RideItOut is saying about different BS wanting different things. Maybe your BS was looking for empathy. I could see myself having that argument because I wanted my WS to look at himself deeper and face some hard truths about who and what he was.

Obviously, there is confusion over exactly how the conversation went. These are some things you said.

Regarding emphasizing shallow things, I do not think that I emphasize looks over other values.

She says that I am shallow. I have never thought of myself as shallow, because I also highly value other things besides looks.

So, naturally my wife sees evidence that I truly value only looks and young age.

I would argue that it's not the only thing you value, but during your affair you certainly put more value on those attributes then your wife's qualities and your marriage. It seems difficult for you to see that or admit it. But I don't understand how you can honestly believe otherwise. Wouldn't you have been home enjoying your wife's qualities and your marriage and family instead of having an affair if you valued them more?

When she asked about skinnier versus overweight, I could have said something like “I know that I have made you feel unappreciated and unsafe and in competition with others …

Maybe this is again differences in BS, but this would have been a cheap, word salad apology to me. Remove "I have made you feel" and replace it with words that take agency and responsibility for your actions like "I didn't appreciate you. I wasn't a safe husband. I compared your physical attractiveness with others and made our marriage a competition for you without your knowledge or consent."

It sounds like your defensiveness won't let you face those things. Until you do, you can't dig deeper into why that was true and face some of the things HouseofPlane and HO and others are bringing up.

Ride it out — I don’t know what to think. When I caught him he said it wasn’t like a one-night stand. He said he had had “feelings of love for her”. When I heard him crooning to her over the phone “my god, you make my jaw drop. You’re so beautiful, honey. You’re so pretty, love” his tone was over-the-top besotted, like a overwrought teenager. I just don’t get it. She wasn’t all that in any way shape or form. Man, I wish we could attach photos, sometimes. But maybe it was something more? I know he lied to her nonstop too, though, and she had very different beliefs about what our relationship was/was not. After confrontation she kept saying l”I’m so so stupid. I’m so stupid. I never knew him at all.” It was shocking how much he had lied to her too. Although the was never mean and cruel and obviously abusive (although lying is abuse, obviously).

No.

If the choice is between curves and no boobs/flat butt, looks like my teenage daughter...sorry but its not even close.

I wonder what answers the BW would get if she were...out and about. Quite a few men..OR WOMEN as i recall, might give a different answer then yours.

Funny I was taught a long time ago, that any husband/bf with an ounce of commen sense, would know that there are certain questions that a wife/gf may ask where there is only one answer.

For example..Do these jeans make my butt look fat?.

The appropiate answer is 1 of 3.

Yes, and I plan to have that for dessert.

I am not sure, take them off and let me get a closer look.

Figure out the 3rd on your own.

A wife is a wife and should be treated as so. All the 8 paragraph, super smart "always tell the truth" advice is a bunch of noise. Many a wayward are so stupid as to think another would not enjoy every ounce of that what repels you.

Again. let her ask the question and see how many say...yummm.

I really should not push send, but honestly, after reading many post from the wife, if you really think you have any margin to say stupids shit, then that is exactly who you are.

Keep testing her...

Many a wayward are so stupid as to think another would not enjoy every ounce of that what repels you.

Sorry but I laughed out loud because post-divorce I discovered just how true this is.

And your advice is spot on.

I am curious as to why, a seriel cheater, would post a thread, (on a forum where his wife has many freinds) that basically said " My wife is fat and I think skinnier women are more attractive".

In what world was this a good idea?

I really dont mean to sound snarky, but dang, thats not the smartest thing a WH should do.

Backtract as fast as you can and hope this attempt at male junior varsity validation or whatever, gets buried and she gets amnesia. (aint going to happen).

Just no dude.

Oh lord have mercy, I'm going to regret this response in the broad light of dawn, but here goes.

I only hope it helps somebody, somewhere.

SadWife53 writes:

Just another example of how cheating with a younger thinner AP can change a BS.

I’m scheduled to take the risk of surgical complications and five hours of general anesthesia at a hefty price tag in order to have a flatter stomach and perkier breasts in mid August.

I am someone who always prided myself in deciding for myself what’s important in life. Since I was young, I thought the people who valued the rare beanie babies, diamonds or Faberge eggs were fools. I looked at women on the plastic surgery merry go round with pity. I never wanted to model the plastic surgery mindset to my beautiful daughters. The old me would have given that $ to a good cause. Yet here I am. This is what I want. It’s not hard to figure out why.

The saddest part is I know that there will always be women who are younger and thinner who will be willing to have sex with my husband because he has money.

Sister, I have already been through *this entire metamorphosis.* And, like you, I considered myself *the most unlikely candidate.*

Until, that is, I found out that my husband had, years earlier, cheated on me at the first anonymous, plausibly deniable opportunity he had, when he had 'borrowed' the funds we had saved and set aside for our first house in order to take this trip, while I was (a full time outside of the home working wife and mother) sitting at home with two sick babies, answering to my own boss who was not pleased with my absence (both babies came down with chicken pox within hours of his departure on this glamorous trip, and YES, he knew that, *before* his 'indiscretion.')

Here's what:

I've always had a curvy figure. I think I was born into Misses' sizes. But, on the other hand, I've always been fit, toned, even 'athletic.'

I lost *every last ounce and some* that I'd 'gained' during pregnancy. I had a physically active career (clinical health care) and an active gym membership.

I was *the exact same size* that I was *when Husband first laid eyes on me* at the moment when he cheated on me-

- and he cheated on me with someone who was, by his account, more 'zaftig' than me. And, by his description, more scarred by childbirth than me, and quite likely, older than me.

She was, simply, easy and available for purchase, and attractive enough for that moment.

It was, honestly, less about her and much, much more about my husband's frame of mind and context in that moment.

And I say that as no insult to her. I do not look down on her in any way. I hope she got herself to the place that she wanted and needed to be.

He'd dated women who were heavier than me.

He'd dated women who were skinnier than me.

He'd dated women who were bustier than me.

He'd dated women who were hippier than me.

He married me.

And then, he pulled me through the fucking wringer.

Not only by cheating on me early in the marriage, while I was at home supporting his 'flight of fancy' while tending to his/our two sick babies...

... but by subsequently walking off of me to pursue every other kind of validation to try to figure out WHAT IN THE EVER LIVING HELL IS WRONG WITH HIM.

HE'S STILL WORKING ON THAT.

Here's the thing:

Fatter than you?

Skinnier than you?

Older than you?

Younger than you?

It doesn't matter.

It honestly does not.

SHE/HE IS OTHER THAN YOU, that's the thing.

For someone who is fundamentally damaged and flawed-

all it has to be is 'Other Than You.'

These flawed, damaged people are trying on lives, trying on identities, trying on mittens and underwear and socks and pants and jobs and projects and initiatives and life partners like they are all interchangeable, trying to find *something* that works...

... when the entire point is, until they understand themselves, and fix their own damage, *nothing* will suit.

In the meantime:

We get scrambled up in their 'Plug and Play,' 'Try this pair on!' 'Does this identity make me look fat?' bullshit.

Because, apparently, it works for them, right? (Only it doesn't...)

If surgically altering your own body will give you back some of the sense of time and youth and wasted effort that you've lost trying to figure out what in the hell is wrong with Mr. I Have No Idea What Makes Me Happy, go for it.

You'll come out with a bitchin' new body, and you know what? He'll come out with a new found sense of 'other' and an insecurity he hasn't felt in decades. (Pardon me for a moment: HA HA HA HA HA HA HARDEE HARDEE HO HO HO HEE HEE HEE! lololol)

Or, he won't give a fuck one way or the other.

Either way, you'll have your new body, and a definitive answer.

If he doesn't care, he's already gone. Good Riddance. Enjoy the New You.

If he *does* care- you have an entirely new paradigm. I'm here to tell you- it's not easy.

My husband *loves* my 'new body,' and I kinda hate him for that.

Because, truthfully, my 'old body' wasn't a train wreck, and was distinctly young for my age, and yet due to my husband's own issues and glitches, it was largely, ignored.

Didn't have to be. I did then and I now continue to attract plenty of other men. It was his problem, not mine.

Furthermore, I loved him and his body through all of its various foibles and iterations, some of which were sincerely *trying to the soul.*

As of right now, I enjoy, for myself, having my clock turned back to enjoy the youth that my husband wasted on his own unaddressed damage.

Do it for *you,* Sister. Do it for *you.* Please, please, please, I beg of you- understand the risk, understand the resultant pain and recovery, and if it's not worth it for YOU- DON'T DO IT.

DO IT FOR YOU, AND ONLY IF IT IS WORTH IT FOR YOU- AND IF NOT, DON'T DO IT.

DO NOT DO IT FOR HIM.

TRUST ME, HE HAS ALREADY RENDERED HIMSELF IRRELEVANT.*

*When *he* is ready to get a ball lift, a dick implant, testosterone injections, a tummy tuck, a butt lift, love handle liposuction, hair implants, a face lift and a character implant, THEN WE CAN TALK.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 2:55 AM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

These flawed, damaged people are trying on lives, trying on identities, trying on mittens and underwear and socks and pants and jobs and projects and initiatives and life partners like they are all interchangeable, trying to find *something* that works...

... when the entire point is, until they understand themselves, and fix their own damage, *nothing* will suit.

One of the best posts I have ever read on SI.

To GuiltAndShame, I do not think you understand what empathy is. And if you do, you do not appear to understand how to exhibit it. Telling your BW that you do find her more attractive, even though you find skinnier women generally more attractive, has nothing to do with empathy.

[This message edited by DIFM at 4:59 AM, July 14th, 2020 (Tuesday)]

duplicate

[This message edited by DIFM at 4:56 AM, July 14th, 2020 (Tuesday)]

I am curious as to why, a seriel cheater, would post a thread, (on a forum where his wife has many freinds) that basically said " My wife is fat and I think skinnier women are more attractive".

You know, this thread may explain why, in the past, I had to kind of "become someone else" to have success with women. I'm an honest person, I tell people the truth when they ask me questions; always have, because that's just how I was raised and it's also so much easier to not have to remember all the lies (I'm lazy!). But man, this thread is something else.

First off, let me say, the fact that this poster is a WH and I'm "defending him" makes me deeply sick to my stomach. I'm much happier, and spend most of my time here ripping WH's apart and hopefully helping BW's see them for their actions for what they are (and often, what they are not). I find the entire thought of defending a WH deeply offensive, but.. Here I am.

Look, first off, while I agree he may have "basically said that" that is NOT what he said. He said he generally finds skinnier women more attractive. Guess what, NEW FLASH, so do most men. Also, so do most women. If I were 5'1" and asked my wife, "Do you generally find tall men more attractive" I suspect her answer (actually, I know what her answer is) would be "yes, I do". Now, if I were 5'1" asking that question, yes, maybe that answer would upset me, but what exactly do we want my W to do in that situation? Lie? Because, let me tell you, I DO NOT want her to do that. Probably the best thing is for me just not to ask the question at all, the answer is quite obvious, in general, women find taller men more attractive, I have no reason to believe my W is wildly different. And in general, both sexes find "thin/well built" to be attractive. No s**t, right, I mean, this is a question that just doesn't need to be asked at all. If I asked my W, "If I made 10X as much as I do today, would I be more attractive to you" and she answered anything but "yes", she'd be lying. That's just how it goes people, we can dislike it, we can side step it, we can happy dance until it doesn't seem true, but.. It's just not the world that we live in.

I just take real issue with the advice given here to sidestep the question, give 1/2 an answer or even, just flat out lie. How can that be the right response? Maybe it IS the right response (again, explaining a lot of my trouble with women as a young man until I learned to lie more effectively and "say what they want to hear") but, holy crap, are we setting ourselves up for a world where nobody has any idea what the truth is about anything.

I'll give an example of the damage this does. My W had an A; and had a highly sexual relationship with the OM. I've asked her millions of questions about it, but, probably the most important one, "Do you prefer sex with him to sex with me" or "Do you wish I were him when we are having sex", I don't even bother to ask. Because I know she'll lie. But, if I thought she'd tell the truth, well, I'd ask the question this morning and, if the answer was "No" to both, would that give me some peace. Because, of course, I know the truth will not be spoken though, it's not even worth asking the question, which leaves me stuck (and a lot of other BS, I might add, because there's SO MUCH lying). Sure, advise this guy to lie when asked hard questions, no skin off my back, and maybe, in this situation, it really is the "right" answer (as hard as that is to believe for me). But then don't be surprised when people start not believing one another on other issues; sure, lie about preferring skinny women, then lie about the sex in the A, then lie about how emotionally involved you were, then lie about wanting to be with your W more than her, then lie... Then just keep lying.

How can this be the right answer? It certainly i not the right answer for me, I can tell you that much.

Nobody has to lie, Rideitout, and you don't have to be a different person, but empathy, kindness and tact go a long way. In the old "does size matter" question, I bet there are few women out there who haven't carefully picked their words to avoid shredding the ego of a man they care about. The human being attached to whatever feature is called into question matters more than unedited potentially harsh and hurtful truth.

RIO,

I agree with you as far as typical body types and preferences go there are certain types that are more desired. It is a genetic thing to some degree, and also a cultural thing.

One thing about my AP was that she was in most respects totally different from my BW. She was unstable, more outgoing, taller, less busty, etc. I think in some respects it was a subconscious thing to connect with someone that would not compare to my BW. Also she was different which made for some excitement - which is what a large part of these things boils down to.

Ultimately the BW is struggling with 'how do I compete with younger/thinner?' She doesn't. She knows it, he knows it. What she more likely wants to know is does he love her and will he be wandering again.

Agreed it was a loaded question from his BW. Worse than "does this top make me look fat" when she is wearing the equivalent of a potato sack. Maybe the point G&S missed was to ask his BW what is really bothering her. There is a lot of unresolved something there.

In the old "does size matter" question, I bet there are few women out there who haven't carefully picked their words to avoid shredding the ego of a man they care about. The human being attached to whatever feature is called into question matters more than unedited potentially harsh and hurtful truth.

An absolutely perfect example. Why do you think that so many guys worry about this question so much. Why it can never really be "put to bed" no matter how much assurance we get from our spouses/girlfriends/others?

It's because, as you said "carefully picked words" to "avoid shredding ego" leaves any answer to this question basically meaningless to a the person asking the question. So while we all get a "no, it doesn't, yours is perfect" as an answer, it's impossible to believe that answer because, we know, everyone is lying. So, if you're 4" or 10", you probably STILL have insecurity because you know you're not getting the real answer, you're getting the "right" answer. Hence, you have men obsessing about this endlessly, because, of course, you can read women talking in some places, where the "ego issue" isn't present, about how much better a bigger (or smaller) penis was for them. Unlike weight, there's not really anything anyone can do to change this aspect of themselves, but, still, is "just lie about it" the right answer? I don't think so; let's say I asked my W and she said, "I like bigger than you much better" before we married. While you might think that's "cold" and "awful", I'd see it as incredibly freeing and honest. Great, now let's have a discussion about it. Is it something that really bothers you? Should we go separate ways because you'll never be satisfied? Should we get some toys that are much bigger than me for you to enjoy? That are many ways to resolve even that problem and stay in a relationship or married, but, instead, we default to "lie" and then nobody knows where they stand with their partner and many wind up with crippling insecurities. Yes, it's their own issue to deal with, but it's an issue other people put there for them because they will not stop lying. And frankly, I think a lot of this is intentional, it's much more effective to motivate a change in behavior by introducing uncertainty and fear than it is to actually say "could you please change this" (assuming, of course, it's possible to change).

Great, now let's have a discussion about it.

Rideitout nailed it right there. Imagine that. Talking to each other. I mean really talking.

For too many years my BW and I stopped communicating. I bottled up a lot of shit. So did she. We didn't deal with the issues. It built up and eventually she found comfort in spending time with her mother and our kids and I went off and had an affair.

Most important thing for dealing with post D-Day issues and then R and our M was learning how to communicate effectively with each other.

I love being able togo to my BW and bitch about whatever. She will listen. She asks if I want an opinion. She may offer advice. She also knows I am mostly off loading so I don't sit there and stew. She does the same back to me.

Things are so much better when we communicate.

A major breakthrough for me was discovering that telepathy does not work with my BW, and also that I am a real crappy reader of subtle signals from my BW. After that talking seemed to improve things. LOL

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 7:36 AM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

Talking to each other. I mean really talking.

Which only works if both people are being honest. That's the thing, my W and I "talked" all the time pre-A, she was lying, I was not. It was a waste of time to "talk" because I might as well just make up the answers myself, they have about as much relevance to how she really feels. And that's exactly what happens here, people just "make up the answer" because they know asking basically wasting air. But, if you have real/true honesty, you can ask any question you want and get a real answer, now you're really "talking" and not just entertaining yourselves by figuring out how eloquently you can string words together. Which is what it seems like the advice is in this thread, "figure you really pretty way to string words together" and sidestep the question, which, to me, would be absolutely infuriating and leave me to draw my own, possibly wrong, conclusions.