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Newest Member: May28

Just Found Out :
is this real?

Topic is Sleeping.

Waggingthedog ( member #65793) posted at 3:11 AM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

Dear Subverted,

I know I was harsh in the last message I wrote. I’ve thought back on it a number of times these past few weeks. There’s a part of me that wishes I could have been kinder, and a pet of me that thinks you needed to hear it.

I think it’s a good decision - whatever the reason - to let the other woman go. You’re in a very weird situation. She should know that going into it. I think it’s probably best to be on your own, so to speak, while you sort out these emotional demons.

I say this in the kindest way possible man. You got broken. I did too. There’s no shame in admitting that. There are no men that don’t have this pet of them where, when faced with the loss of the storybook romance, don’t get broken seeing that it might not exist for them.

I’ll say it from my end... I’m broken. Maybe permanently. I can’t bond with people anymore. I can’t be open with people anymore. I’m wary. The one person I was open and free with turned out to hate me. Who doesn’t get broken from that?

I’m also similar to you in another strange way. The thing with your childhood... that they tried to put you in special Ed and then tested your IQ. Me too. Same thing.

Maybe your obsessive. I was. You try to make sense of this logically. You want a coherent narrative to try to understand what happened, and that way it won’t seem as scary.

This isn’t entirely logical, but here are my conclusions based on my own situation and way too much reading on the subject:

1. My EXWW did not love me the way I loved her. She felt safe with me, but she also didn’t like me. She was not as invested in the relationship as I was and demonstrated that.

2. Her childhood demons and low self esteem played out in finding the validation from others to be more valuable than the relationship that she had with me. And, frankly, that’s fine. It’s hard to accept but that’s fine.

3. The dishonesty in having affairs is a power move akin to what children do. The manipulation is childish and, as only children can do, it can be taken to extremes without a thought of the consequences.

There are two things you need to review where you are. They are safety and deciding what you want.

Safety is my big area. I’m risk averse. I counsel people on risk. The situation you’re in - cohabitating with someone who means the world to you, but at the same point can do monstrous things out of selfishness - that’s not sustainable. It’ll wear on you. You’ll end up scared and it’ll poison the relationship, unless it magically becomes safe. Frankly, I don’t believe she can become a safe partner. She might develop the tools to ACT like a safe partner, and maybe that’s enough. Personally, I think once the feeling of safety in a relationship ends, so too ends the relationship eventually. It could be she’s waiting to find a reason to leave so it’s not your fault or taking her time to feather a nest.

Likewise, you’re probably blind by a combination of sex and thinking she’s the best you’ll get or something.

I hate saying this but my guess is... she’s very attractive and you don’t think you can do better and that, as you say, she will find some rich dude and shove it in your face. If she does... good for her. If she did that would that mean she loves you, or it’s all situational attraction?

A friend of mine who is a woman... I asked her, why is this other person into me? She said, “because you check enough boxes.” It was a cynical version of attraction that I couldn’t get my head around. It didn’t sound like love to me, because love is unconditional, right? It shouldn’t matter what “boxes” I checked, a person should love me for who I am, right? I’m still not sure of my friend is right or not, but I do know that the loss of having your soulmate show you it’s not really soulmates... that breaks something in you.

I still think your situation is unsafe. And I am sorry you’re going through it.

Assuming you find safety with your WW... if that happens somehow... you need to start asking yourself how you want life to look like post this thing.

Every day we wake up and make a choice. We go to sleep and make a choice. Assuming “love” isn’t tangible, and it really is an exercise in the checked boxes... does she check enough of yours? Do you get more out of being with her, post this, then you do without her? The kids factor in too here. I get that.

I’m not sure you want advice on how to go, and I’m not sure anyone is qualified to tell you how to live your life. Only you get to do that. This shit sucks, and it sucks you’re going through it. However you play it is how you WANT to play it. You can make a different decision any day. Maybe it’s tomorrow, maybe it’s years from now, maybe it’s never.

What she’s doing though... no. She does not get forgiven because she demands it. You do what you want to with that.

Subverted... you are you. You got broken. You can rebuild you, no matter who is in your house. But F*** it, don’t you dare forget that you get to chose how to spend your life. It’s uncertain. It’s crazy, but it’s yours.

Kids safety. Your safety. And then do what you want with it. Personally, I don’t think she’s safe, at all. I think it’s going to go sideways and she’s plotting an out that she can blame on you. I think it’ll hurt worse than. But, if you find you, if you do what you need to do, then no matter what happens, you’ll walk out the other side better

*** this may be a bit too disjointed. It’s been an extra busy week. But I wanted to check in. Stay strong man.

posts: 75   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2018
id 8660053

nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 4:12 AM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

Sub, what's stopping you from that nice house, living single, and splitting custody? The environment you have described sounds incredibly unhealthy for your children. At least with split custody they get a happy, healthy home 50% of the time instead of the mess they're dealing with now every day.

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8660062

 subverted (original poster member #74713) posted at 4:39 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

Thx for all of the words guys. Very much needed.

Wag, one thing that stands out for me on what you said. Let me rehearse:

"because love is unconditional, right? It shouldn’t matter what “boxes” I checked, a person should love me for who I am, right?"

Do you think unconditional love should apply to a unfaithful spouse? Do I not love her unconditionally if I do not forgive, forget, let go, and rejoin the covenant? She, for once, i think... is 100 percent sincere when she says she is wallowing in her own guilt she caused our family. She is sorry, sorry, sorry, and tells me that it will never happen again. She reminds me that she now has the correct communication tools. Tools shes learned from a "lifecoach" on youtube and also from her faith. She states that it was her "masculine energy" that caused us to fight like bulls. She reminds me that i am the man. I xall the shots. I drive the ship. I wear the crown. Now, i dont really feel that way ofcourse, the womans feminine roll in a marriage is equal to hut different than a mans.... Me turning her away... what does that say about me, as a man? This woman claims to only love me, and tells me that she realized while I was gone that she could not love anyone the way she loved me, and no one will ever love her the way i loved her. I mean yah.... thats great and all.... but she did what she did in my eyes. Most people do not have to sexually stray outside of the marriage to find that their spouse is the one true love they have been looking for..... she did. And now she wants a free pass, in my book...


Whats stopping me? Nothing... really. My own emotions. The thought of kicking this woman out of my house, in my childrens eyes is whats stopping me. The thought of moving out of my house that i own, that i pay for, and letting her remain there..... is whats stopping me. The thought of throwing away 16 years of love, is stopping me.

The thought of being a "scum bag" and first accepting her apologies and then renigging on them, is whats stopping me. The fear of losing her to another man (even though I've lived through this) is whats stopping me....

Do i think she is an attractive woman? Ofcourse. She is. But she has flaws. Like anyone. They never mattered to me, because i was blind to them. I did love her unconditionally. But since I've been gone, and got to be with other women, I've found that there is so much more to a woman than her looks. (Obviously, i knew this... but hear me out ladies) Its the way she talks. The way her skin feels. The way she makes love. The way she cares. Its all foreign to me. Is that whats driving my attraction? Can I do better? Probably. Am i affraid of that? Ofcourse. It's an unknown. Who wouldn't be fearful of the unknown?

Do i think im a catch? Sure. Im 36, i have a decent income, a home, decent looks, vehicles, kids, ect ect. I think i "check all the boxes" as a wise man once quoted.

But, that matters not. What matters, in my eyes... is my children. If i could just let this anger go, let her crazy emotions and all the BS she says from time to time go, and be a complete push over, my kids could have a shot at being a real family again.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2020
id 8660147

Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 5:00 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

What matters, in my eyes... is my children. If i could just let this anger go, let her crazy emotions and all the BS she says from time to time go, and be a complete push over, my kids could have a shot at being a real family again.

I don't think this is the example you want to set for your children. To stay in an abusive relationship. You can still be a great father, even if you D.

She, for once, i think... is 100 percent sincere when she says she is wallowing in her own guilt she caused our family. She is sorry, sorry, sorry, and tells me that it will never happen again.

Words mean nothing. What are her ACTIONS telling you? As you said, she sits around all day, doesn't dress, doesn't help with housework, etc. She is telling you the that SHE is still number 1, and only her feelings matter.

This woman claims to only love me, and tells me that she realized while I was gone that she could not love anyone the way she loved me, and no one will ever love her the way i loved her.

Again, words are meaningless. If she loves you so much, what is she DOING to prove that? From what you describe of her actions, she is not.

What type of man are you? The kind who protected his children. The kind who put himself second to them, made sure they were safe, healthy, fed, cared for, etc. Your WW is an adult. You are not required to do that for her, especially after she has spurned you.

Are you supposed to lover your WW unconditionally when she does not reciprocate? IMO, no. You have tried, given her opportunities, which she continued to reject. It does not make you a bad person to say "enough is enough". I believe you would be foolish not to. You don't have to continue to live in pain.

Your WW wants you to "move on". So do that. Move on from your M and your abusive WW and D.

posts: 1593   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8660161

nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 5:30 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

But, that matters not. What matters, in my eyes... is my children. If i could just let this anger go, let her crazy emotions and all the BS she says from time to time go, and be a complete push over, my kids could have a shot at being a real family again.

Really? The children who are left to fend for themselves every day she spends in bed and neglects them? Seriously? If keeping them with a neglectful mother every day is what's best for them, I would hate to see what you consider an unhealthy environment for them.

They need a consistent schedule to be kept for food and personal hygiene. They need her to interact with them and enrich them on a daily basis. They need to learn how to care for their home space and not ruin it. Who's teaching them how to do chores and be productive? What's going on with their schooling? Did you know that if kids fall behind in reading and math by 3rd grade, it haunts them all the way through high school? They can't afford to just waste this time away because your WW is too busy grieving the OM.

If your oldest DD is caring for them, guess what? She's a child and it's damaging to her to be parentified like that. She needs to focus on being a kid and her schooling, not taming your other kids and caring for them. Your two parent house right now is in crisis because only one of you is stepping up to parent part-time and you need to start fixing it.

Did your children witness your WW being beaten and robbed? Were they witness to any of the abuse? If so, why aren't they in therapy? What's being done for their emotional health?

If you want to keep the marriage going and do better for your kids, at least find them a nanny or a babysitter so that their lives aren't impacted by your WW's inability to care for them. At least stand up for them and demand that your WW get psychiatric help so that she can be a mother to them again. At least get them into therapy if they witnessed ANY abuse at all done to your WW by OM. Do SOMETHING for their sake if you're going to allow her to keep putting them in harm's way by being a push over. It's better to be from a broken home than living in one and I'd consider a home where the young kids spend most of the day not being parented as broken.

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8660183

 subverted (original poster member #74713) posted at 6:16 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

Kids go to school everyday

Grades are fine. They have chores, but like any kids it takes 2 or 3 times for the younger ones, especially the 5 year old, to do them.

Oldest daughter has never "baby sat" anyone. Including my own kids.

Oldest daughter heard her mother being beat, and thats one of the main reasons i filed ex parte.

I get what u are saying... And WW is childish. But she does keep good care of the kids. We bath them everyday. We cook dinner, a good dinner for them, everyday.

I have my own garden and we grow most of our own food. They eat well. Aspargus, lettuse, and brussel sprouts well.

Shes going thru this, and so am I. And at every stel of this journy i have reminded her to keep the 5 year old in check. Keep him busy and do not let him speak to you the way he does. Shes qlways quick to point out the fact that they listen to me better.... well.... what more is there to say.

Yes, she needs to quit being a push over.

And my oldest is in therepy. Yes.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2020
id 8660204

nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 7:05 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

That's a different picture than you've painted before about coming home to kids running wild and making messes. So maybe it's not completely dysfunctional but it's still not good for them to be witnessing your WW's depressed spiral. It's not good for you to be stressed out picking up the slack. Have you talked to her about getting into IC?

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8660225

Lalagirl ( member #14576) posted at 7:15 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

What do you need from us, Subverted? You knock down every piece of advice that these good members are taking the time to provide for you.

Me-58 FWH-60 Married 40 years 9/2/2023 grown daughters-40&36.14yo GS,11yo GD & 9yo GD (DD40); 12yo GD & 7yo GD(DD36). D-day #1-1/06; D-day #2-3/07 Reconciled! Construction Complete. Astra inclinant, sed non obligant

posts: 8902   ·   registered: May. 10th, 2007
id 8660227

 subverted (original poster member #74713) posted at 7:32 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

Guess im confused as to how im knocking down any advice. Ive told u all many times how much your advice has helped me. Also, how much i shoulda have listened to it in the beggeining.

I dont ask for anything. Im just here, trying to find my way... asking humans for humanly advice. Which i take to heart, and thought I've praised everyone on that since the beginning.

Criticism appriciated

As always.

But i dont see where im knocking anyone advice.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2020
id 8660236

nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 7:43 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

I can see why Lala said that. You've said you're not happy with the status quo. Yet you've made no plans to change that. I don't mean separation or divorce since you have knocked those down. But you could be going to IC, asking your WW to go to IC, MC (though I'd question it's efficacy at this stage), laying out some boundaries and ground rules for her that would make staying easier on you, the 180 and focusing on yourself/kids, or really any number of things that could improve your situation. If you keep coming up with reasons NOT to take advice and don't explore any solutions, it does make the posters here wonder what you're looking for.

There's no shame in posting just to vent but just know that nothing changes when you change nothing.

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8660238

 subverted (original poster member #74713) posted at 10:21 PM on Monday, May 17th, 2021

I hear you loud and clear.

Im letting my emotions get in the way here.

I love her, i beleive she is sorry..

But i do not think, at this time, i can be with her, and be truly happy. Mind movies still play when i am around her. What tigers said rang home.

Words r wind. Her actions, outside of "fixing herself" have done nothinf to impress me.

I need to take action

And i have a few ideas.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2020
id 8660289

reborn07 ( member #71226) posted at 1:05 AM on Sunday, June 6th, 2021

hey subverted, it’s been a minute… i should try to be more available 😬 i hope ur doing well. i just popped in tho check on u and my keyboard isn’t big enough to say all the things that i want to say to u. i know it’s hard to sift through what a good decision is and what ur heart tells u to do. i’m not gonna say i have the best advice, but think about what’s good for u and what’s good for ur kids. make a rational decision, and don’t let ur emotions or her words get in the way of THAT DECISION.. be decisive, and question her judgment where ur kids and ur family unit is concerned. if me and my kids r on a ship and somebody on the ship keeps poking holes in the bottom…. i throw that motherfucker in the water and fix what’s left.. i’m pulling for u, or y’all either way u go. take it easy bro ✌🏻

posts: 65   ·   registered: Aug. 11th, 2019   ·   location: georgia
id 8665328

ThemeforaJackyl2 ( new member #75686) posted at 6:18 AM on Sunday, June 6th, 2021

But she does keep good care of the kids.

Are we talking about just general day to day stuff, because if she is getting herself into a situation with a wife beater, well that is simply nuts to say that. She had her kids around that sort of violence and didn't walk immediately, nor call the cops. Sorry, she is NOT a good parent.

And yes, it boils down simply to the really really important situations, anyone can change diapers and feed kids, but when it comes to real courage and standing up when it counts, she fail you and your kids. Sorry if this was covered already.

Also, I think i nailed the quoting on the 1st try, BOOM!!!

posts: 11   ·   registered: Oct. 18th, 2020
id 8665357

Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 2:21 PM on Sunday, June 6th, 2021


These simple things are all your children need.

A dependable caregiver, mother/father relatives

A sense of security. Am I safe with these people? Is my home safe? Emotionally and physically.

Nurturing. Lots of unconditional love with a few realistic expectations. Hugs, kisses, I love yous.

Food, clothing shelter.

Everything else is a want, not a need.

Childhood looks simple but every single thing done to them, for them, around them has a profound impact and it starts at birth.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 4233   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8665387

Robert22205https ( member #65547) posted at 4:56 PM on Sunday, June 6th, 2021

It is not inconsistent to love her but chose to fire her as your life partner. Why? because as a human being you deserve better.

posts: 2591   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8665407

Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 9:24 AM on Friday, June 10th, 2022

Bump at OP request

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 12407   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8739493

wifehad5 ( Administrator #15162) posted at 10:56 AM on Friday, June 10th, 2022

Bumped at OPs request smile

FBH - 52 FWW - 53 (BrokenRoad)2 kids 17 & 22The people you do your life with shape the life you live

posts: 55797   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2007   ·   location: Michigan
id 8739523

Drstrangelove ( member #80134) posted at 2:36 PM on Friday, June 10th, 2022

The kick in the crotch and the sex offender would *likely* be deal breakers for me.

FWIW, if you haven’t, talk with the lawyer about the sex offender as it will give you favorable divorce and child custody rulings regardless of the state you’re in. I can’t fathom what I’d do if my wife was putting my children in direct harm’s way like that.

Edit: Apologies, I didn’t see OP date or length of thread…

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:13 PM, Friday, June 10th]

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 972   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739556

Mamabear312 ( member #59811) posted at 4:21 PM on Friday, June 10th, 2022

Please please read the book Co-Dependent No More, STAT. You got off drugs but got addicted to your wife 14 years ago. And she to you. No matter how awful you are to each other, you keep coming back. You are still an addict, it's just a different drug of choice. And it's incredibly messed up because you are destroying any semblance of hope that your children can have functional, safe, childhoods.

Your kids are suffering. From their perspective, they ask themselves-- Who is safe? Mom's house wasn't safe, people are hurt here and I'm not consistently sent to school and she lies and there are strange men in and out... Will Dad protect me? Yes! He showed up for us when he filed for temp custody and got us full time out of that house with a mother who couldn't be bothered to keep us safe or pay the utilities so we could be warm and clean. [remember, how you reported that your daughter was doing better and opening up to you when you got her full time?] And then... NOPE. Just kidding, he put us back in this shitty environment full time but now he's here and sometimes it's fine and sometimes you can cut the tension with a knife. I never know what to expect and that's terrifying.

Children need to feel SAFE and unconditionally loved by their caregiver. They don't have little adult brains that can process this back and forth-- they have kid brains that need things to be safe and simple. Your wife has consistently not given them safety nor put their needs first. This is why your young children don't listen to your wife. This is why your teen daughter is suicidal. You were doing your best-- and doing such a GOOD JOB of showing your children you were a safe adult who would protect them-- until you fell back into your addiction of your wife. Now they're back in the same trashed house with a mentally ill mother who maybe meets their basic needs (she dresses them, she feeds them healthy food) but surely doesn't meet their emotional needs, is mentally unwell and untreated, and you've said yourself functions as a child.

You say part of the reason you're back is to give your children two parents under the same roof. THAT IS NOT IN YOUR CHILDREN'S BEST INTERESTs. It is better to be from a broken home than to live in one. <-- Read that again.

You have tried so hard to do right by your kids, but the thing is, you can't even see how WRONG this is. The professionals in your life, the therapists--- did any of them encourage you to re-enter this relationship?

I read this whole thread with high hopes that you were able to continue putting your children and your own health first-- but sadly, your addiction got in the way. You tried to white knuckle your way through it with no contact, but you're an addict, you know white knuckling doesn't work if you're really trying to stay clean. Please find a therapist who specializes in addiction who can help you see that all you did shift addictions to an unhealthy, obsessive relationship where sex is used as a primary tool, and 15 years later, you're still in the throes of that addiction.

Please assure your children stay in therapy, particularly therapy geared towards children who have experienced significant trauma. Did you know that hearing your Mom being beat up/witnessing domestic violence has the same impact on a child's brain and nervous system as if the child were physically abused themselves? This is a research based fact. Also think about that every time you and your wife argue or name call within ear shot of the kids. And even if you don't verbally fight-- if you think kids don't pick up on the tension in a home-- please think again. Their brains and nervous systems are SPONGES.

I hope you can get back on the right track. I hope you can break the addiction to your wife and get out of that incredibly unhealthy and co-dependent relationship. I hope you can show your children they are worthy of being put FIRST-- that their emotional and physical safety comes before your addiction. I know you love them-- it comes through so loud and clear-- and that you want to do right by them. But your decisions when it comes to your wife do not back this up. Please, treat your addiction so you can match your actions and your words, and your children and you will be so much happier and healthier.

Don't forget-- Co-Dependent No More. Please read it!

posts: 87   ·   registered: Jul. 24th, 2017
id 8739617

morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 4:31 PM on Friday, June 10th, 2022

It's clear as day that your wife is only involved with you for the money. She has said as much to you (love you but not in love with you, can't lose my house, my pool, don't want to get a job...) I guess that's fair because you primarily love her because of her beauty. It definitely isn't her selfish, reckless and immature personality that you love. Fair trade, I guess, money for looks, since that's what you value. I've seen it again and again on these boards, where a financially comfortable man has a beautiful wife who he idolizes and indulges, and then is shocked to find out that her insides don't match her outsides. But he won't divorce her no matter her behavior, whatever, because, you know, her beauty makes him luv her so much, makes him want her no matter what. She initiates sex to get out of consequences, and it works.

OP, it doesn't get much lower than a mother knowingly bringing a sex offender into her life. She should have treated him like nuclear waste the moment she found out about that, just for her kids' sake, not even taking into account the infidelity issue. A good mother doesn't get involved with someone like that, period. A good father doesn't stand by and let it happen.

If you ever want to live a healthy life, get a divorce. Get to know someone better before getting into another relationship. Focus on their personality, their actions and especially their values (demonstrated by their actions).

[This message edited by morningglory at 4:59 PM, Friday, June 10th]

posts: 454   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2022
id 8739620
Topic is Sleeping.
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