SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Even if she did break up (and I’m not saying that she did) that statement is still true and accurate:

I say that mom & dad are getting a divorce because mom fell in love with someone else

But whether she broke up or not doesn’t matter. Whether she tells her aunt May that she never cheated doesn’t matter. Whether she’s creating a brand new grievance list for her BF (or else she’ll cheat on him) doesn’t matter.

You’re going your own way, she’s going her own way, and that’s pretty much it.

Most upfront just want them back but long term they for the most part then ask themselves what did I get back?

Better put some thought into this.

You already got one repeat. It happens.

Right now she’s not a safe bet. You don’t want to go through this again.

Sorry, that was a bit much.

Nope it wasn't, and I think you are currently on the right path.

"This is a spiral that needs to be broken, and the course you have embarked upon should break it. She needs to realize that she is taking and not giving. No quid pro quo here."

It is and I feel for her, but I am not a shrink and because I'm drowning I cannot help her swim. She must do it.

Apologies, my mistake for not wording it better. You are right that you do not break the spiral for her, and she has to do it for herself. What I actually meant was that you do not get sucked into the spiral by doing 'quid pro quo' with her. The path you are on should (no guarantee) get her to break that spiral by herself.

I can't trust her like this. I have to stay the course.

Good.

I'm 'so difficult to talk to'. That’s why we need therapy, so that she can talk to me.

Textbook blame-shifting.

She had to break up with him gently because she cares more for her boyfriend, and it is now a case of unrequited love. Her unicorn-land fairies are still around. She is giving up on her 'true love'/'soulmate' for duty. *Stuff like that makes my skin crawl, ewww*

She has built him up into such a great guy in her fantasy world that no amount of tangible evidence will sway her opinion of him.

Until she snaps out of this mode of thinking, she is not safe for you nor your kids.

I feel like she broke up with him simply so she can say that I’m wrong when I say that mom & dad are getting a divorce because mom fell in love with someone else on Saturday morning. Or possibly just to avoid telling the kids altogether.

My bet is on Option 2 - to avoid telling the kids.

I sit here and think - what do I want? I don’t think it matters in the sense that I don’t see a way forward with reconciliation. I’m just too fucking tired. What would I do, put together a list for her to ignore?

If she doesn’t ignore it, if she comes to me and says she’ll do anything, and she means it - then what?

Lists and words, without action to back them up, do nothing on their own. A marriage does not comprise of an exercise where you check-off things on a list.

Then I have to look down the telescope of time and say will she ever be able to gain my trust again?

Unless you have a superpower that can see clearly into the future, you have to work with what you have. What you have been given is nothing to show that she is safe for you. Will you be able to trust again? Yup, but it will highly be doubtful it will get back to what it was when times were good.

So that means plodding on with divorce.

Yup.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 8:27 PM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Reconciliation is attainable provided you have specific things like transparency, no contact, accountability and some level of remorse with the wayward willing to pull the heavier load.

How much of that do you have?

None that I can see.

Your total post says you have a wayward wife who really wants her boyfriend but feels stuck with you because of the kids.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

You can’t trust anything she says, only her actions matter. My bet is she just wants you to keep a lid on things in large part to avoid her reputation being sullied. It’s another mystifying dynamic of the cheater mindset, they typically don’t think their decisions through.

Regarding therapy for you, that is something you should consider, especially a therapist familiar with Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) which gives you tools to help manage your thoughts, emotions, and feelings. I think this would be good for when you’re ready, as it will help you to better rationalize that this is not a race, which will in turn help your anxiety level. I did 1 year of in-house separation with 4 kids and an angry, verbally abusive WW. It’s no picnic, so seeking help to keep your emotions in check is wise.

Gently, as I don't want to impose, but I remember the high points of that conversation. My kids were older, but the ideas and concerns are the same. They are not going to like this at all, because it will prey on their fears and insecurity. Your children aren't stupid. They sense something is badly wrong between mom and dad. So, here's my version, imperfectly remembered, FWIW.

"So Mom and Dad have something very important to tell you guys. You aren't going to like it, but we have to be honest with you. So here goes. I'm going to start, and Mom will chime in.

When you get married to someone you love, it's like the greatest thing in the world. You're happy, and you build strength and love and compassion from each other. A happy marriage can make each other into better people, because where there were two of you before, you are now one team. Working together, facing challenges. When you guys arrived, it only made us happier because we loved you both the second we laid eyes on you. Sadly, sometimes, this doesn't last forever. People can forget things that keep them together. When that happens, sometimes they stop loving each other.

Sadly, this is what has happened to your Mom and Dad. Mom has fallen in love with someone else, and wants to not be married any more. We have tried and tried to fix this without you finding out the truth-- because we didn't want you to be worried for even a second. Even more sadly, we couldn't fix it and we have decided, together, that it isn't fair to you guys for us to continue like this. I'm just sad and angry all the time, and I want my feelings to be better now. It really won't happen living in the same house with Mom and I together.

The important thing for you to know is that this IS NOT YOUR FAULT, it was just between your Mom and me. Sometimes life will take you places you didn't want to go. We will never stop loving you both, that's both mom and me. We may not live in the same house, but we are still a family. Just a much bigger family. I'm very sorry this happened, I love you both very much and you need to know we will both always be there for you."

She went next, and to my surprise (but not delight) she backed me up that time. She also iterated our parental love and affection, and her sorrow that it didn't work out when we tried to reconcile. They were bawling, so was I at that point (to my own self loathing), so she cut what she had to say short, because we had some very upset children at that point.

In summary, it won't be easy. Don't bullshit them, they will see through it. Just be honest. HOPE your STBX is honest too. I had zero faith mine would be but she surprised me.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 10:49 PM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Hi LostOne

Keep it simple. Refer her back to your letter to her. Tell her it’s all in there.

If you have to, tell her simply:

“You’re in love with another man. You give him the benefit of letting him down GENTLY but you won’t do anything I ask of you. You didn’t even say you broke up with him because you are in love with me. You gave other reasons and I wasn’t even at the bottom of the list. I dont need a partner that’s in love with someone else. As I wrote you, go be with him, I’m not stopping you. We’ll tell the kids Saturday and move on. You’re getting what you’ve wanted. Accept it and move on.”

Then stop talking about it. If you want to see a counselor then see YOURE OWN individual therapist. That’s what she should be doing to. Find different therapists that specialize in infidelity and go to them.

But you are still a long way from where marriage counseling together would be of any value.

She has SO MANY steps in front of her to become a safe spouse that she could start trying now and it would be six months before she’d be ready to work in MC.

She DIDNT just come to you and say “I’m so sorry I hurt you. I love you. I made the biggest mistake of my life with the biggest douchebag in the world. I am begging your forgiveness. You are the best man I know. I’ll do anything to make it right, here is my phone and all my passwords and I won’t be leaving home to go out without you for the foreseeable future. Instead I’ll be working on a timeline of my affair for you. And I’m gonna work to figure out why I did this. In the meantime I desparately want to help you heal. I hope you will let me take the steps to rebuild what I destroyed with my infidelity.”

LostOne, you got none of that. So instead, keep doing what you are doing. Tell her you feel absolutely no love from her and can tell she loves the POS. Make this real to her. Show her that her life now entails living with human garbage.

Tell her she has the kids the odd days of the month and you’ll parent them the even ones (or whatever).

I know it’s hard. I know you’re tired. But there truly is no other way that doesn’t leave you trying to live with and love someone who is directing her affections elsewhere.

Sending more thoughts of strength.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:24 PM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

feel like she broke up with him simply so she can say that I’m wrong when I say that mom & dad are getting a divorce because mom fell in love with someone else on Saturday morning. Or possibly just to avoid telling the kids altogether.

This is a total manipulation move to avoid people thinking bad things about her. ESPECIALLY her children. She doesn't give a shit about you, and as soon as the danger is past, she'll be off to the Casino again. I think you know that.

You need to be careful about how this is worded, because you don't want to attack your wife (their mom) openly. Say something to the effect that Dad is very, very sad about what has happened and being with Mom isn't going to make Dad better. To be fair to them (the children), you need to live in another house from Mom. This is something between Mom and Dad and they needn't worry about your love and support of them forever, but Mom and Dad can't be together any more. It just isn't fair to anyone. You are so sorry it had to be this way but we will do our best to make a good family together, just not in the same house any more

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 1:05 AM, January 9th (Thursday)]

I feel the approach being expressed on how to break it to your children is too soft. It makes excuses for WW and places blame on you, the BS. It's saying that over time WW just drifted away from the marriage and found someone else to love and you, being weak, couldn't get over it.

You don't need to go into details unless the children ask questions. Even then answer in an age appropriate way. In many cases the children know more than we think they know.

I might think of something like this.

When you are married your primary focus is on your spouse, the marriage and your family. That doesn't include having a boyfriend or girlfriend in addition to the wife or husband. Your mother had a boyfriend and that isn't acceptable to me. I won't share your mother with another man.

We both love you children and want the very best for you. Unfortunately, the very best doesn't include your Mom and I being married anymore or living together. None of this is your fault in any way. It is something between your mother and I.

I feel like she broke up with him simply so she can say that I’m wrong when I say that mom & dad are getting a divorce because mom fell in love with someone else on Saturday morning. Or possibly just to avoid telling the kids altogether.

She is offering you crumbs but's it going to take a whole lot more than crumbs to earn your trust back. Keep going in the direction you are going. She will either see what she is about to lose and start offering "everything" or things will end. Watch actions not words.

I also don't believe she really broke up with him. She either told him to hold off for a few weeks while she "sees" if you can change or she offered ways to take the relationship underground.

This isn't the first time she has told you that she has ended things. You believed her the last time and things went even further. I don't see as she has given you more reason to trust her.

Thank you Steven. I wrote up the following for her and sent it. Minor details changed, of course. I probably blathered on too much. I also attached something about what the Betrayed Spouse is going through. She has seemed to have read some of the other material I've sent. So there's that. I probably sent too much.

Wife,

You’re in love with another man. You think of his needs above all and you attempt to give him a gentle let down by breaking up with him face to face, but you won’t do anything I ask of you. You didn’t even say you broke up with him because you are in love with me. You gave other reasons and I wasn’t even at the bottom of the list. I don’t need a partner that’s in love with someone else. I’m not feeling any love from you. All I’m feeling is that you want desperately to shield the kids from the impact of our divorce.

Take a step back and think about it. I am hurting and going through one of the most painful things that a person can endure. The last time this happened I became suicidal. I reached out to AUNT and GODMOTHER and your concerns were with me bothering those other people. With me bothering them while I go through this traumatic experience alone.

Look at your actions. You aren’t begging me for forgiveness, you aren’t saying I’m the best man I know, I’ll do anything to make it right, here is my phone, here are all my passwords, and I won’t be leaving to go out without you for the foreseeable future. You aren’t saying that you’ll be working on a timeline of my affair for you. You aren’t saying in the meantime I desperately want to help you heal. You aren’t asking me how you can help me, what do you need from me? You aren’t saying that I hope you will let me take the steps to rebuild what I destroyed with my infidelity.

I’m not staying in a loveless marriage. I owe it to myself and the kids. So do you. So, as I wrote you, go be with him. I’m not going to stop you. We’ll tell the kids Saturday and move on. You’re getting what you’ve wanted.

LostOne, you got none of that. So instead, keep doing what you are doing. Tell her you feel absolutely no love from her and can tell she loves the POS. Make this real to her. Show her that her life now entails living with human garbage.

Tell her she has the kids the odd days of the month and you’ll parent them the even ones (or whatever).

No, I didn't, you are correct.

I'm working on a separation plan. It's monstrous (huge, lots to look up), but it keeps me busy in my down hours. It'll have a variety of options with regard to custody and lots of things. I kinda have the suspicion that I'll do all this work and we'll get to the mediator and basically have to start from scratch. That said, at least we will already have some idea of what we are going to do.

I know it’s hard. I know you’re tired. But there truly is no other way that doesn’t leave you trying to live with and love someone who is directing her affections elsewhere.

Yes, true. It's unbelievable. It's like I married someone else.

I'm going to be working on what to say to the kids. I'll be writing it up and then printing it out. There's some good advice here.

I said it’s absurd to go to therapy while you date him.

‘I’m not dating him, I broke up with him’.

I said, you drove over there last night? How am I to believe you didn’t sleep with him?’

She said she had to do it her way, face to face. I said she was protecting his feelings at the expense of mine. She said it’s hard. I asked what she said and she said that she had to break up for the children - I said ‘not me?’ And she then said she said the family.

She's still not making the connection. For her, it's about whether she's willing to give up her AP, not the FACT that she has committed adultery.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if she's willing to stop the affair and go to counseling. She cheated on her husband. The marriage is forfeit. She threw it away, and she knew the cost when she chose to cheat. That's why cheaters go to such absurd lengths to hide their dirt. You are NOT at any obligation to offer her another chance, and certainly not on HER terms.

Your WW has been operating from a position of fantasy, where SHE is in the catbird seat making a tortured choice between two lovers like a Harlequin romance novel.

This was her POV as recently as last night. But in real life, she has already forfeited any right to make claims on you with her choice to cheat. YOU are the guy in the catbird seat. And your choice is between a long and arduous recovery and a new life of your own design.

I think you would be wise to take a little time and flesh out both plans. Try them on, see how they feel. The kneejerk response to infidelity is typically to try to salvage the status quo. But that means giving up your right to end the marriage and move on. That's a big ask when you consider that it's coming from a person who has already betrayed you.

In order to creatively visualize both plans, imagine that you have all the financial resources that you need. Imagine the boundaries you might establish and that those boundaries are in place. Try to get a feel for what your day-to-day might be like under both sets of circumstances. Then, try to imagine what brings you the most peace and satisfaction.

I think it's okay if this exercise takes some time, even if that means pushing back your plan to talk with the children. You have an obligation to yourself to make the best decision possible for YOU. And I know that can sound selfish up front, but recovery, R or D, depends on taking true ownership of your choice. Otherwise, you're a broken man and a broken dad.

Strength to you.

She's still not making the connection. For her, it's about whether she's willing to give up her AP, not the FACT that she has committed adultery.

Yes, very true. This has been about her since the beginning (in her mind).

Frankly, it doesn't matter if she's willing to stop the affair and go to counseling. She cheated on her husband. The marriage is forfeit. She threw it away, and she knew the cost when she chose to cheat. That's why cheaters go to such absurd lengths to hide their dirt. You are NOT at any obligation to offer her another chance, and certainly not on HER terms.

Agreed and I will not. I cannot. If there is anything in the future it has to be on my terms.

Your WW has been operating from a position of fantasy, where SHE is in the catbird seat making a tortured choice between two lovers like a Harlequin romance novel. This was her POV as recently as last night. But in real life, she has already forfeited any right to make claims on you with her choice to cheat. YOU are the guy in the catbird seat. And your choice is between a long and arduous recovery and a new life of your own design.

Yes, agreed. I need to recover from this. That doesn't mean reconciliation. It doesn't mean divorce necessarily either - however I have to plan for this option since I'm the only one out of the two of us who cares about my recovery.

I think you would be wise to take a little time and flesh out both plans. Try them on, see how they feel. The kneejerk response to infidelity is typically to try to salvage the status quo. But that means giving up your right to end the marriage and move on. That's a big ask when you consider that it's coming from a person who has already betrayed you.

I think you are wise here. In order to flesh out both plans I need as much information as possible. That's why I'm continuing on with operating under the divorce thought process. Honestly though I've seen nothing that indicates that she values me any more than a backup.

The status quo is dead regardless of where ever this leads.

In order to creatively visualize both plans, imagine that you have all the financial resources that you need. Imagine the boundaries you might establish and that those boundaries are in place. Try to get a feel for what your day-to-day might be like under both sets of circumstances. Then, try to imagine what brings you the most peace and satisfaction.

That's a pretty good idea.

I think it's okay if this exercise takes some time, even if that means pushing back your plan to talk with the children. You have an obligation to yourself to make the best decision possible for YOU. And I know that can sound selfish up front, but recovery, R or D, depends on taking true ownership of your choice. Otherwise, you're a broken man and a broken dad.

One of the things that I'm concerned about is my pace. I've tried to take breathers, but it's very difficult. I feel the need to rush and sort through this. It's very difficult for me to pull back.

Strength to you.

Thank you, I need it.

One of the things that I'm concerned about is my pace. I've tried to take breathers, but it's very difficult. I feel the need to rush and sort through this. It's very difficult for me to pull back.

The pace and pressure have been necessary up to this point. Breaking up the affair requires the introduction of REALITY so the fantasy bubble can be popped. The WS ends up shocked to find that they aren't in control at all... you are. The power balance isn't what they thought it was. It was never her in the catbird seat. It was always you.

I'm not suggesting that you back down from your position of strength, only that you use it to get what YOU need. A certain amount of steady pressure lets your WW know that she can't manipulate your choices. But if Saturday is too soon for you to make a decision which involves the children, it's okay for you to push it back a week or two.

You've done remarkably well so far. Believe in yourself.

Stop writing her letters.

They aren't accomplishing what you want them too.

By her actions, she isn't a safe candidate for reconciliation.

Divorce full steam ahead.

Don't listen to her words, watch what she does.

and please don't go see her damn therapist.

Stay strong and do not let her inside your emotional walls.

Stick to the 180.

[This message edited by Gutpunch at 8:29 AM, January 9th (Thursday)]

LostOne

I think you are wise here. In order to flesh out both plans I need as much information as possible. That's why I'm continuing on with operating under the divorce thought process. Honestly though I've seen nothing that indicates that she values me any more than a backup.

You just wrote the above. Well, one piece of information that you are surely missing is if she went and fucked him again the other night since she has emphatically told you she did not. Do you think you might want to know if that was the truth or not????

I realize you stated money is tight, but she may not know where you say you are getting the money from, but I would "bluff' her and tell her if she passes a polygraph to prove that is not another lie that you will talk to her. my guess is she will pee in her pants at that suggestion.

I may have missed it, for which I apologize, but how did she keep seeing him for all the time she did??? I can't believe she was running to the casino near where he lives constantly without arousing your suspicions. This was not just a couple of hook ups.

You can stop a divorce any time you want to. You cannot get out of limbo with only what information you have. The OM lives within easy driving distance apparently and at this point you have no idea what she really did with him or what she told him.

I do not know how you soften your position with this uncertain person who has lied to you so many times.

You just wrote the above. Well, one piece of information that you are surely missing is if she went and fucked him again the other night since she has emphatically told you she did not. Do you think you might want to know if that was the truth or not????

I think I do want to know.

I realize you stated money is tight, but she may not know where you say you are getting the money from, but I would "bluff' her and tell her if she passes a polygraph to prove that is not another lie that you will talk to her. my guess is she will pee in her pants at that suggestion.

I don't understand what you are saying here. She has a job too and makes the same as I do.

I may have missed it, for which I apologize, but how did she keep seeing him for all the time she did??? I can't believe she was running to the casino near where he lives constantly without arousing your suspicions. This was not just a couple of hook ups.

FaceTime and then trips to the Casino about once a week. It didn't because I'd been to the Casino and her mother/godmother played Casino games and such. She also likes nature and the actual trip out there is through some nice country side. The FaceTime went on for years. The Casino stuff about a year and a half.

You can stop a divorce any time you want to. You cannot get out of limbo with only what information you have. The OM lives within easy driving distance apparently and at this point you have no idea what she really did with him or what she told him.

I do not know how you soften your position with this uncertain person who has lied to you so many times.

I don't know either.

I don't understand what you are saying here. She has a job too and makes the same as I do.

I am saying tell her you do not believe her for a minute that she did not run off and bang him one last time, and that since she has lied so many times you need her to pass a polygraph before you discuss ANYTHING other than divorce.

If you can afford it schedule it. If you cannot afford it bluff her. And again ask her two questions

(1) did she have sex with him the other night

(2) is she still communicating in ANY way with him

those are also your first two poly questions.

When you tell her your demand, she will have a reaction that you can read since you know her. She will do one of a few things

(1) tell you to sign her up so she can prove it to you that she is not lying. Don't be misled. She may then very well change her mind after you give in to her. Do not do that. No discussions until she passes.

I would not bet you get this response

(2)refusal and indignation. What does that tell you?

Either way your big hurdle is believing anything someone who has lied so many times to you without some verification. Do her words mean crap to you right now???

i hope that explains what I said before that confused you.

She responded. I've changed some details. The text she's referring to is one that I sent this morning. it said something about feeding the kids breakfast and that I would be sending her something later.

I want to say all of those things to you but I’m afraid if I do you will say I’m only doing it b/c you said it or that you don’t believe it anyway. You are not the easiest person to talk to (and I understand you’re angry and hurt and that’s fair right now). So I shy away from tying to get close to you (right now) so that you have your space to process all of this. I would prefer you start to think what can we do to fix this, rather than it cannot be fixed. If you truly believe it cannot be fixed, no matter what actions we both take, then I have destroyed everything I have ever wanted in life. I can’t imagine a future without you and the kids there, every single day. You all are my world. If there is any chance of rebuilding, please know that I want to try. Yes, I want to shield the kids from divorce but not just for them for us too. I never wanted to be anything other than your wife and their mother. I messed up so badly and I feel so much guilt and shame for what I have done. I tried to break it off so many times. I felt dead inside. I never wanted to hurt you, you never deserved to be treated the way I was treating you. I was cold and distant. I didn’t feel like myself. I have to try to fix the part of me that was broken and dead. I want to help you heal. I want to hug you and cry with you and just sit with you and be there. I don’t want you to be alone and feel unloved. I have never stopped loving you. I stopped loving myself. I also have had many times where I had to actively convince myself to not jump off a bridge or drive off it. These have been the darkest days of my life.

I didn’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t reach out to GODMOTHER and AUNT for help, you should. I wasn’t reaching out for help because I didn’t think I should burden them with my problems while they have their own problems to deal with. That is my lack of self worth speaking. They say they are there for me (and you) but I feel like I am bothering them. I feel very alone.

I have ended it. I need time to process all of the damage I have done and I want to stop the bleeding. I am getting stronger every day. Your text gave me a glimmer of hope and I felt so happy for about 30 mins. I don’t feel like I have had a chance to speak compassionately with you because I know you don’t want to hear it, no matter what I say. This is killing me and killing you. I need you to see me and not some checklist on the internet. That is why I asked if we could talk to a counselor together so that someone can make sure we are both being heard properly. I don’t understand why that is such a tall ask. I know I feel like I owe it to us to try harder. I also know it’s not fair to ask you to try since you are the victim here.

I will do what it takes to help you feel safe and loved. I have thought hard about why I let this happen and below is a list of things I need from you to help me recover from this and I need a list from you. Please send me your list. Please. Please try. I know it’s wrong of me to ask but I think you want me to ask and I know I want to ask, so please. Please try.

My list (and I don’t expect overnight miracles):

1. More emotional connection between you and I – more face to face time, less screen time/book time. We need to get away and just be together.

2. More physical connection (at least working toward it) – less vanilla more rocky road (this can be on your terms, I know you said you are open)

3. More help maintaining the house repairs.

4. Commitment to living a healthier lifestyle (physically and mentally). We are using food as a coping mechanism and it’s actually killing us and teaching our kids to eat poorly. I want to make better food choices for all of our sakes.

5. I also think we need to go to counseling so that we don’t have to rely on our faculties to help us through this difficult time. I know that I am not educated enough to know how to navigate this and I there are websites to validate any opinion I have so I can’t trust that either.

I do not want a loveless marriage. I know we can’t go back, but we can move forward, together. I need forgiveness, which I know cannot come immediately but I have hope that we can get there. I truly believe that.

I love you with all of my heart. I have always loved you and I will never stop loving you. I have never stopped loving you.

I want to tell her that I can't think about reconciliation until I actually recover from this. Something like: I have to recover before we can think about reconciliation if that’s even an option. I have to take one day at a time. I’m not predicting nor promising anything with regard to the future. I see your list and I understand it. I’m still struggling with whether I believe you or not. There’s no point to trying if I can’t.

I feel like I'm not thinking clearly. My head is just full. Her list is completely doable. Not necessarily easy, but doable. But I don't feel close to that at all.

I see what you are saying now.