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Whatever the case, I said something saying that I predicted this yesterday and then I said "we are getting a divorce".

She actually had the temerity to say that 'we were one list away'. I said we are getting a divorce, please leave.

First of all, the letter was the perfect message for your situation. It communicates your grievances, especially how her decisions impacted you. Well done, that had to be hard.

I understand she had a verbal reaction to the divorce decision. Has she responded to your letter yet in any direct way?

I’m sorry, but we were one list away is a ludicrous, entitled answer that speaks loads about her mindset. Is this the only direct response to the idea that you are seeking dissolution yet?

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 6:07 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Hi LostOne

Sorry had a busy day and then crashed early. I’m just getting caught up.

Good job on the letter. I think you improved on what I gave you and it sets the right tone. You’ve stated that you will not be involved in a love triangle and have stated what you need to see to try and rebuild someday.

Now it’s time to walk the talk. Do what you said. No more discussions. To paraphrase one of our most knowledgeable posters, Bigger, if she approaches you to talk about your relationship and it’s anything but her on her hands and knees begging for forgiveness, offering you access to all her technology, with a letter of apology and a written timeline confession of her infidelity, tell her “if we were working on this relationship we could talk about that, but your actions and attitude show we are not, so I won’t be talking to you about that here and now.” And then walk away.

That’s is your path out of this right now. It’s up to her if she wants to follow. You don’t need to be chasing her.

If she asks what she can do to begin to rebuild, ask HER to write a list, a plan, for recovery. Tell her the only thing you will accept from her right now is such a plan that she has researched herself and shows that she truly has remorse for her actions and proves she no longer has any feelings for the POSOM. The only list you need to see right now.

Start your separation time clock via what ever filings you need to do. Let your attorney guide you. Don’t do anything for her, and do t accept anything g from her. No cooking for each other, no laundry, no car maintenance etc. she fired you from any of those jobs and you no longer want any of those things from a woman who is actively cheating on you.

Keep it up. You’ll either find someone in front of you begging for forgiveness ready to trash the AP and take every step she can to help you heal and repair, or you’ll waste no time getting away from a true cheater who is no longer on your side.

Perhaps take some time and read some threads here on Wayward Side. It will show you what a truly remorseful WS would look like.

Sending you thoughts of strength.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:51 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

You’re in the worst part of the shit storm. We’re here to think of this for you

Keep telling her you’re divorcing her . Tell it to her every time she utters a word to you

I goddamn appreciate it. Thank you. I plan to do that or something like 'I can't talk about relationship stuff'. Just something to shut her down and to prevent my pain.

It's only been a text or two about the schools being closed. That's it. She went out last night, somewhere - my daughter assumed the Casino, but what she said to my daughter was she went out for a drink. Either way, I cannot care.

I had some moments of panic this morning. Absolutely scared and terrified that she would use the kids to get at me. She's never done that sort of thing before, so I think I'm just stressed beyond my limit.

Her godmother contacted me about something else. My head has been so focused that it took me by surprise. I just spilled my guts. She didn't read the message until the morning and then she called and we talked. She is a good lady.

Okay, major grief, and a sudden feeling of being abandoned.

I get that, I feel bad for her, she went to therapy once or twice and then quit. I suggested it and maybe I should have been more forceful or something, but that doesn't excuse the affair - two completely different things.

She felt that her AP would not abandon her, and she needs reassurance that you will not abandon her. She wants a guarantee without having to give a guarantee.

The above are possible explanations for her behaviour, and in no way do I condone what she is/has doing/done.

This is what gets me - she's said there's no stress from him. That aside, they went out in High School and he cheated. He cheated on many (all?) his girlfriends. She says she knows the red flags, that she asked him about it. He said that he grew up and was looking for something emotional. Well, first he denied cheating at all - she had to remind him. He has said he doesn't consider it cheating if he gets emotionally checked out of a relationship.

So, with all of that said, I can totally see why she would believe he wouldn't abandon her. I'm done though. She has done nothing to reassure me when she's the one who torpedo'd our relationship. She shot me in the stomach and I'm bleeding out and she's bitching about her hand. Well I fucking slapped a goddamned bandaid on my stomach. I help my goddamn self.

Sorry, that was a bit much.

This is a spiral that needs to be broken, and the course you have embarked upon should break it. She needs to realize that she is taking and not giving. No quid pro quo here.

It is and I feel for her, but I am not a shrink and because I'm drowning I cannot help her swim. She must do it.

Hold your current course and do not waver. Watch what she does, not listen to what she says.

Start on your journey out of Infidelity, and keep going until you get out of it.

That's my mindset right now. It's one day at a time for me.

What would you do if:

- she gives up her AP?

- devotes herself entirely to you and your daughter

- shows remorse

I also have a son, but regardless. Right now I need to heal. If she does that it makes no difference to me - it can't. I can't trust her like this. I have to stay the course.

Will you take her back, to continue with the D-train? The right answer will be the one that is right for you. Just think about it, so that you are not caught flat-footed.

Right now it's the D Train.

A separation agreement also formalizes a separation date from which the 1-year commences.

You’ve got a long road ahead of you, but you’ll be okay. Know that although some of the advice given here can seem harsh and feel like there’s a hidden agenda at times, the reality is that people here have felt your pain and do have your best interests at heart. Keep leaning on that because in-house separation is brutal when you have an unrepentant cheater,. Managing your demeanour and not engaging her is critically important, so venting away here is by far the better way to go if you need to.

I know, I just wish I had the money to get help doing this. I have to do all the research and stuff. EVERYONE - including my close friends - are saying the same things, as does the research and the professionals I've seen. I know you are looking out for me. Forgive me if I snap at you all.

Honest to God the in-house thing is going to be horrendous. I'm trying to figure out options. I have some lines of hope. My problem is that I'm all rush rush rush. Like I need to get away from this as soon as possible, which I probably do have to do BUT BECAUSE of the difficulty it begins to feel hopeless. I don't know if that makes sense.

You handled a sh*tty situation appropriately. Your communication to your WW was all quite right.

Sending admiration and respect, along with hope, strength and support for both you and your daughter.

I have a son too - I know that it gets missed, he's 8 and only recently noticed we weren't wearing rings. That's okay though. I so appreciate your words. I'm trying my best and I feel like I've made so many mistakes, I've chased so many false feelings.

I note that great SI posters are squarely behind you. That should give you high validation for your actions and confidence that you will get through this and out of infidelity.

For your situation, this quote from Winston Churchill seems appropriate:

"If you're going through hell, keep going."

Thanks. I always liked Winston Churchill.

I told her Godmother that I had to divorce her. I had to hit the bottom of Hell in order to start reaching up to climb out. She completely understood and says she's firmly on my side. She's a good woman, but my wife has been in her life for 50+ years, her mother was her best friend. That's a bond that supersedes my relationship with her. I do not fault her for that, I love her and I understand.

You can’t work on anything with a 3rd party in the mix bud.

I'm not working on anything with regard to our marriage anymore - she fired me as her husband. That said, I might get more therapy for myself. We will see how I go.

Uh, he should have never been allowed in you marriage in the first place

Exactly.

Maybe, maybe not some therapists are that looney.

It’s hard but get the separation in place ASAP. Make it your goal. Something to focus on.

It’s extremely unhealthy for you to be in this situation.

That's fair - it's just the way my wife presented it that makes me suspicious. Whatever the case.

It is my goal.

First of all, the letter was the perfect message for your situation. It communicates your grievances, especially how her decisions impacted you. Well done, that had to be hard.

I appreciate it- I had help with it (Steven).

I understand she had a verbal reaction to the divorce decision. Has she responded to your letter yet in any direct way?

Initially she came up to tell me about therapy. She completely avoided ANY discussion on the douchebag. I had to ask. It was all about how to make sure *we* could work in the future. I asked about the douchebag and she said something. I asked if she talked to him last night, she said yes. I said something about predicting this and said that I had typed something up for her and that I would send it to her. I was done talking about relationship stuff, I want a divorce.

She went down stairs, presumably read it and came back up with a note book. She said I had to hear it. I said I didn't want to listen that she could read my email as many times as she liked. She said something like 'once was enough'. I didn't have the energy, so I just sat there. She read a few lines from her note book - the shit about the list. I said that we are getting a divorce I don't want to talk about it. I may have had to say that a few times. She got the message and said 'we were one list away'.

I’m sorry, but we were one list away is a ludicrous, entitled answer that speaks loads about her mindset. Is this the only direct response to the idea that you are seeking dissolution yet?

No shit - it was stunning, to be honest. Don't worry honey, breaking up with the douche is at the top of your list - after months of therapy where you reassure me that we will be okay and that you will do as I ask, I will maybe have the strength to end it with him. (I'm obviously sarcastically reinterpreting what she said).

That was the last thing we said to each other. I sent her something this morning about the schools being closed - because I don't want her waking the kids. Literally 'the schools are closed'.

Good job on the letter. I think you improved on what I gave you and it sets the right tone. You’ve stated that you will not be involved in a love triangle and have stated what you need to see to try and rebuild someday.

Thanks, you helped a lot.

Now it’s time to walk the talk. Do what you said. No more discussions. To paraphrase one of our most knowledgeable posters, Bigger, if she approaches you to talk about your relationship and it’s anything but her on her hands and knees begging for forgiveness, offering you access to all her technology, with a letter of apology and a written timeline confession of her infidelity, tell her “if we were working on this relationship we could talk about that, but your actions and attitude show we are not, so I won’t be talking to you about that here and now.” And then walk away.

It's one minute, one hour, one day at a time for me right now. I cannot handle discussions about the relationship with her, I will not be talking to her about them. I don't even know if I could handle her being as contrite as you are suggesting. I really don't - after this past week, I CANNOT even imagine her doing ANYTHING like that.

Regardless, I don't feel in the right place to even engage with that.

That’s is your path out of this right now. It’s up to her if she wants to follow. You don’t need to be chasing her.

Right - I'm not playing the Bachelorette with her.

If she asks what she can do to begin to rebuild, ask HER to write a list, a plan, for recovery. Tell her the only thing you will accept from her right now is such a plan that she has researched herself and shows that she truly has remorse for her actions and proves she no longer has any feelings for the POSOM. The only list you need to see right now.

Maybe, that seems like good advice, but right now I don't even know.

Start your separation time clock via what ever filings you need to do. Let your attorney guide you. Don’t do anything for her, and do t accept anything g from her. No cooking for each other, no laundry, no car maintenance etc. she fired you from any of those jobs and you no longer want any of those things from a woman who is actively cheating on you.

Fair enough will do.

Keep it up. You’ll either find someone in front of you begging for forgiveness ready to trash the AP and take every step she can to help you heal and repair, or you’ll waste no time getting away from a true cheater who is no longer on your side.

Perhaps take some time and read some threads here on Wayward Side. It will show you what a truly remorseful WS would look like.

I actually read a few from another forum. Shit, a friend of mine told me about her wayward spouse. I think it cemented the difference between remorseful and entitled or whatever. The stark contrast is unbelievable. I kind of feel like an idiot for caring so much.

Sending you thoughts of strength.

Thank you.

The therapist, supposedly, said something to the effect that one of the things that my wife needs is reassurance that the deficits in our relationship will be worked on. That her and I need to come up with lists. Once we agree that we will work on those items then she should be comfortable giving up the douche bag.

Wow, the "therapist" is choreographing your Pick Me dance.

There's no stress with the OM because they are living in a temporary fantasy where there is no stress (no kids or other normal responsibilities of being married). The OM makes no demands on her because they don't share a real life (just a bed).

Your wife is drawn to a temporary fantasy world including the OM. Among other things your wife needs to feel the reality of what life will be like as a single mom.

And the OM needs to experience the reality of what it's like to date a single mom.

Kids are a major responsibility (lots of work and time). As much as you enjoy spending time with your kids, don't allow her & the OM to live in a romantic fantasy world free from responsibility & reality.

Don't enable them to avoid reality by babysitting for long periods of time while they live in a fantasy free from responsibility.

I said something about predicting this and said that I had typed something up for her and that I would send it to her. I was done talking about relationship stuff, I want a divorce.

She went down stairs, presumably read it and came back up with a note book. She said I had to hear it. I said I didn't want to listen that she could read my email as many times as she liked. She said something like 'once was enough'. I didn't have the energy, so I just sat there. She read a few lines from her note book - the shit about the list. I said that we are getting a divorce I don't want to talk about it. I may have had to say that a few times. She got the message and said 'we were one list away'.

That is such horseshit. To even think "marriage counseling" should be even attempted when the marriage is in a current state of infidelity is not only ludicrous, it's tantamount to malpractice! That counselor may be helping your wife address some of her internal issues (honestly, I do hope this happens, for your sake and hers), but any notion that you two can blithely just sit there calmly writing lists, and Oh yeah, "Stop fucking that guy" is "on the list".. It would almost be farcical if I didn't know how much this is kicking you in the jimmies right now. I think in the next day or so the impact of her stalling tactics failing are going to be evident to her, and you might have her cave in. I wouldn't bother listening.

The really sad element of all this is she's going to use this as ammunition against you to re-write the narrative of your divorce later. "Oh, I wanted counseling, but he didn't he's such a bad guy"... just as sure as I'm breathing air. Jesus, this script writes itself.

As we all have said many times, you can't control what she says or thinks. IN about a year, it won't be your problem at all. We're on your side, Lost. Keep it up, stay strong. Most important, stay true to yourself and be there for your son.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 9:02 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Wow, the "therapist" is choreographing your Pick Me dance.

Maybe. I can't trust that the therapist actually said that. It could go either way. I've shown my wife the pick me dance and the cake eater stuff. She said she read it.

There's no stress with the OM because they are living in a temporary fantasy where there is no stress (no kids or other normal responsibilities of being married). The OM makes no demands on her because they don't share a real life (just a bed).

Almost correct - he's demanding she end it with me to be with him, but yeah, you are correct. Plus, he doesn't have a job and lives with his father, so he doesn't even have that responsibility.

Your wife is drawn to a temporary fantasy world including the OM. Among other things your wife needs to feel the reality of what life will be like as a single mom.

And the OM needs to experience the reality of what it's like to date a single mom.

Well, she will. I don't give a shit about him.

Kids are a major responsibility (lots of work and time). As much as you enjoy spending time with your kids, don't allow her & the OM to live in a romantic fantasy world free from responsibility & reality.

At this point, I don't care - I'm doing what I have to do in order to separate. If that means she takes off work to go fuck him - and leaves me be, then fine. As far as I'm concerned I'm trying to detach from her emotionally - her doing that shit makes it easier to do so.

Don't enable them to avoid reality by babysitting for long periods of time while they live in a fantasy free from responsibility.

I'm not going enable anything.

That is such horseshit. To even think "marriage counseling" should be even attempted when the marriage is in a current state of infidelity is not only ludicrous, it's tantamount to malpractice! That counselor may be helping your wife address some of her internal issues (honestly, I do hope this happens, for your sake and hers), but any notion that you two can blithely just sit there calmly writing lists, and Oh yeah, "Stop fucking that guy" is "on the list".. It would almost be farcical if I didn't know how much this is kicking you in the jimmies right now. I think in the next day or so the impact of her stalling tactics failing are going to be evident to her, and you might have her cave in. I wouldn't bother listening.

I've thought that too - which is why I'm on the side of it being how my wife phrased it or that my wife misunderstood what the therapist was saying. My wife has been concerned about our future together and how we will be. So it's feasible that she was talking about that and the therapist said something to the effect of 'look if you ever hope to reconcile you will need to come up with a list of needs and address them together, things working out in the future do not happen without action'.

Then my wife thinks, well, obviously getting rid of Fuck boy will be number one on hubbies list.

Either way, whether it be the therapist or my wife, it's unacceptable and, well, insane.

The really sad element of all this is she's going to use this as ammunition against you to re-write the narrative of your divorce later. "Oh, I wanted counseling, but he didn't he's such a bad guy"... just as sure as I'm breathing air. Jesus, this script writes itself.

I know - I've thought that too. If only I had seen her list! Then, AND ONLY THEN would our relationship have worked! BUT he was an awful mean man who wouldn't even look at a list!

As we all have said many times, you can't control what she says or thinks. IN about a year, it won't be your problem at all. We're on your side, Lost. Keep it up, stay strong. Most important, stay true to yourself and be there for your son.

Thank you, I plan to be there for my son and daughter.

I know - I've thought that too. If only I had seen her list! Then, AND ONLY THEN would our relationship have worked! BUT he was an awful mean man who wouldn't even look at a list!

You don’t have a prayer or chance with her boyfriend in the mix. Anything else is bullshit. Nothing else matters.

Why waste time?

Ha, at some point we at SI will figure out how many kids you have! Girl and a boy right? Everybody please lock that in!

Let me see if I understand this. Your WW is carrying on more or less openly with fuckboy. In the meantime, she wants you to sit down with her and review a list of things that she wants you to do to improve your marriage. If you do that, and if things begin to improve, then maybe she will stop things with fuckboy and work on marriage with you?

Bitch, please! What exactly are you smoking?

Your list, at this point, should contain the one thing she can do for you, and she can do it regardless of the outcome of the divorce: "Kiss my ass."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:45 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

Damn 2020,

I'm genuinely lost for words at your WW's disgusting behaviour & the audacity in her treatment of you. Completely mind boggling!

I'm enraged on your behalf..

I hope you continue to gain strength from everyone here in your journey out of infidelity.

You don’t have a prayer or chance with her boyfriend in the mix. Anything else is bullshit. Nothing else matters.

Why waste time?

I'm not. I've expressly stated this to her. Not today and probably not ever again though. Every time I go through the motions, so-to-speak, all that happens is that I suffer.

Fuck that. I'm already in Hell, I have to start grabbing firm hand-holds to pull myself out, and I'm not a climber. No way can I weigh myself down with someone else's baggage.

Ha, at some point we at SI will figure out how many kids you have! Girl and a boy right? Everybody please lock that in!

Lol, yes. Older girl (12), younger boy (8). Just thinking about them and all this makes my heart sink. It's really not fair at all.

Let me see if I understand this. Your WW is carrying on more or less openly with fuckboy.

Kinda, while not explicitly stated, she continues on with him on FaceTime. She might have physically seen him yesterday. She will probably see him in the future. Not my damned business anymore - I have to move on.

In the meantime, she wants you to sit down with her and review a list of things that she wants you to do to improve your marriage. If you do that, and if things begin to improve, then maybe she will stop things with fuckboy and work on marriage with you?

Bitch, please!

Woah, hold on - if I do that then she can evaluate whether she has the courage to stop things with fuckboy. Let's not get hasty!

Your list, at this point, should contain the one thing she can do for you, and she can do it regardless of the outcome of the divorce: "Kiss my ass."

Lol, I mean, maybe - right now I'm not talking about it with her. I just need to move on. Detach.

Detach legally, emotionally, and however else.

Damn 2020,

I'm genuinely lost for words at your WW's disgusting behaviour & the audacity in her treatment of you. Completely mind boggling!

I'm enraged on your behalf..

I don't know who she is and what she's done with my wife. Maybe this was always her and I was just too blind or too in denial to see it.

I hope you continue to gain strength from everyone here in your journey out of infidelity.

Same here.

Lostone:

I want to commend you on a few things.

1. Your letter. It clearly presents boundaries and your position.

2. Your maintaining a level-headed, rational thought process despite immense emotional pain. That you can see your WW's potential 'spin' on the 'lists' shows someone who is disciplined enough to not allow emotions to cloud judgement.

You have my respect, even if it is cold comfort.

Here are a few suggestions in how to deal with your WW when she wants to discuss the marriage.

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Use that anytime she makes dumb statements like being 'one list away', or tries to blame you for something that isn't yours to own.

"I'm not okay with X (yelling, blame shifting, gaslighting, etc.)."

Use this to enforce a boundary.

"You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same."

Use this for threats or when she says she says she will go to OM without 'lists', etc.

"Are you done?"

Use this when you are about to repeat any of the above.

The beauty in these statements is that they are short, succinct, and effective at not only communicating boundaries, but also keeps you from engaging.

Any time she gets you to engage, she has an opportunity to 'sell you'. You have thus far spotted this nonsense very well. Maybe the above tools will help streamline that process.

Even though you likely don't feel like it, you are doing amazingly well.

Sorry you are here, brother.

At this time talk just keeps you bound up in the mess.

It’s a waste of time and energy and will get you nothing.

I want to commend you on a few things.

1. Your letter. It clearly presents boundaries and your position.

Thanks, I had help.

2. Your maintaining a level-headed, rational thought process despite immense emotional pain. That you can see your WW's potential 'spin' on the 'lists' shows someone who is disciplined enough to not allow emotions to cloud judgement.

It totally doesn't feel this way, but thank you. I do feel clearer than I have in days.

You have my respect, even if it is cold comfort.

Thanks

Here are a few suggestions in how to deal with your WW when she wants to discuss the marriage.

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Use that anytime she makes dumb statements like being 'one list away', or tries to blame you for something that isn't yours to own.

"I'm not okay with X (yelling, blame shifting, gaslighting, etc.)."

Use this to enforce a boundary.

"You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same."

I appreciate this, but it feels too much like getting into (another) conversation about our relationship with her. I'm not sure if that's your intent or not. I cannot do that anymore.

Use this for threats or when she says she says she will go to OM without 'lists', etc.

"Are you done?"

Use this when you are about to repeat any of the above.

I appreciate this. I'm actually not sure I'll handle her saying something about going to the other man. Probably something like 'do what you want, but I'm not going to lie to the kids'. I don't know though, I might have some clarity this weekend when we fully disclose that we're divorcing because mom is in love with someone else. FUCK that's the hardest shit. UGH.

The beauty in these statements is that they are short, succinct, and effective at not only communicating boundaries, but also keeps you from engaging.

Ah, I might have misunderstood your intention.

Any time she gets you to engage, she has an opportunity to 'sell you'. You have thus far spotted this nonsense very well. Maybe the above tools will help streamline that process.

Yup, that's what's been killing me. You are totally correct.

Even though you likely don't feel like it, you are doing amazingly well.

Sorry you are here, brother.

Thanks man, it means a lot. It doesn't feel like I'm doing well - I am so worried about the future and how to split up everything. It's a lot of work. I just have to take it one step at a time.

At this time talk just keeps you bound up in the mess.

It’s a waste of time and energy and will get you nothing.

A thought occurred to me as I was reading the WW section of this forum - does my wife think something is being accomplished? Does she think she's aptly manipulating me? Is it a conscious, deliberate act? Does she earnestly believe her own position?

I've taken it as a given that my wife is not cruel, but then this has occurred and she has not once done anything (outside of going to therapy which I practically pushed her for) to remotely show she is truly remorseful. Guilty for getting caught and ashamed, yes on both counts? Something that indicates she values me as a person? No, not once.

Maybe I can put it on my fucking list that I'll never write.

duplicate post

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 11:17 AM, January 8th (Wednesday)]

A thought occurred to me as I was reading the WW section of this forum - does my wife think something is being accomplished? Does she think she's aptly manipulating me? Is it a conscious, deliberate act? Does she earnestly believe her own position?

Probably she does believe her own bullshit. Cheaters typically employ mind-boggling mental gymnastics in order to give themselves permission to behave in ways they KNOW to be wrong. They have to think of themselves as otherwise good people who just got caught in a bad situation. These are people who are acting in ways which do NOT agree with their own value system in many cases. Hence, the clear delineation between those WS who are remorseful and those who are not. For the unremorseful WS, the self-pity is real because they see themselves as victims of circumstance.

Honest to God the in-house thing is going to be horrendous. I'm trying to figure out options. I have some lines of hope. My problem is that I'm all rush rush rush. Like I need to get away from this as soon as possible, which I probably do have to do BUT BECAUSE of the difficulty it begins to feel hopeless. I don't know if that makes sense.

You mentioned a few pages back that you were planning to look at apartments. If you have the money in your budget, you might consider "nesting". To do that, you'd rent a small place and split time in the family home during the separation. You might switch every three days or so.

There are upsides and downsides. On the upside, it would make NC much more practical. This could add tremendously to your healing. On the down side, it is a bit of an expense and cheaters typically utilize their free time to explore their affair. I would certainly put a rule in place that the OM is NOT allowed in the apartment and I'd put security cameras in place to make sure of it.

I'm not going to give you advice on this. It's going to be a very hard situation no matter what you decide. I just wanted to point out the option.

You did a wonderful job with your letter, so kudos for that. And clearly, you've got a good head on your shoulders. Trust that you're going to get through all this and that you and your children will be alright.

Strength to you.