SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

People who don't own their actions fear being judged. If you are comfortable with your actions, you wont fear being judged.

Ding ding ding!

Also, yeah people might judge me. But I am honest about the 'how many' and the sex question. So, if they do judge, at least I know they are judging me on the facts!

Also, if my number is a dealbreaker for someone and they deuce out, I don't particularly feel like they have judged me. If I found out a guy I was seeing had dated a ton of women and I wasn't comfortable with that and left - I am not judging him. I am making a choice that is healthier for ME.

I'm making fun of someone if I call him Caligula? There was a great piece in Vanity Fair last year about these sex parties with molly, other drugs and "cuddle pools." They are typically places where the power differential puts women at a distinct disadvantage. Feminists hate them, for good reason. Most of the men at them act like ... well, Caligula. Like entitled assholes, in other words. It's objectively disgusting that a man would stick his penis in three different vaginas in a single night. Let's offer it up for the ladies to comment: Man comes along, hits on you, lets it drop that he's just screwed three other women that night. Your reaction? I'm gobsmacked I'm having to even type this. SMH.

I knew someone would say this. I mean wow. Come on, now, really. Really. No, really. It's okay to admit that a man or woman having sex with three people in one night is gross. It's okay to make that value judgement. Come on, DevastatedDee, you can do it, I know you can.

Thumos, I don't care if people do that. Seriously. Genuinely.

You forgot to add that if they turn him down for that reason, they're slut shaming him.

You want to justify what you have done, while still feeling it is special because of feelings that may not be shared by your partner. The problem is that it is less special with each new partner you have. The special partner's smell, way they sound, their breathing, the little mistakes they make, it blends into other's as you compare(Everyone does, we compare all cookie dough we eat and expand our understanding with each bite). Then you need something new to show that connection is special. Sex becomes shaking hands or hugging. Then cuddling on the couch is something you only do with the person you love. That becomes the thing you cling to from the person.

I don't understand what you're saying. I don't need to justify anything to myself. I don't have a problem with having had casual sex with people. I never found it difficult to have marital loving sex either. The person is what makes the sex special, not the act itself. I don't wax romantic about masturbation, but I have plenty of orgasms that way.

Why this need to make fun of people?

Below is list that was used in making fun/shaming of people, however interesting I missed your objection to these. Perhaps I was remiss.

Judgemental

Intolerant

Slut shaming

Sanctimonious

Ignorant

Misogynist

Presumptuous

Offensive

Holier than thou

Mr. Judgy Judgerton

Mr. Wonderful

Discriminatory

Problematic

Disturbing

Jerk

Creepy

Stupid

Uneducated

Over 40

Insecure

Caligula is a very known reference for this type of behavior. Perhaps this can be added under orgyshaming? Historical shaming?

It never ends.

You forgot to add that if they turn him down for that reason, they're slut shaming him.

Caligula is a very known reference for this type of behavior. Perhaps this can be added under orgyshaming? Historical shaming?

It never ends.

Love it.

I'm making fun of someone if I call him Caligula? There was a great piece in Vanity Fair last year about these sex parties with molly, other drugs and "cuddle pools." They are typically places where the power differential puts women at a distinct disadvantage. Feminists hate them, for good reason. Most of the men at them act like ... well, Caligula. Like entitled assholes, in other words. It's objectively disgusting that a man would stick his penis in three different vaginas in a single night. Let's offer it up for the ladies to comment: Man comes along, hits on you, lets it drop that he's just screwed three other women that night. Your reaction? I'm gobsmacked I'm having to even type this. SMH.

From my understanding, their sex parties are with people they know, other couples, and they do not use drugs or rape anyone or purchase women to entertain them or whatever else you're imagining. It is generally at one person's house. No, I personally do not want to participate in that. That's my preference. I don't care if they do it. No one is cheating and no one is taking advantage of anyone.

My reaction is "no thank you" if your hypothetical man hits on me. Like I said, it's not my scene.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:21 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I don't have a problem with having had casual sex with people. I never found it difficult to have marital loving sex either.

My WW made the same distinction in trying to make me accept her "meaningless sex" with her AP in our home.

Really interesting.

Sounds very much like a wayward mindset.

From my understanding, their sex parties are with people they know, other couples, and they do not use drugs or rape anyone or purchase women to entertain them or whatever else you're imagining.

I mean, I wasn't imagining anything. Gross. I was going off an objective media source with a detailed article.

My WW made the same distinction in trying to make me accept her "meaningless sex" with her AP in our home.

Really interesting.

Sounds very much like a wayward mindset.

Explain?

I have been single and had casual sex. I have been in relationships and had meaningful sex. What I didn't make a habit of doing was being in a relationship having meaningful sex with my partner and having casual sex with other men on the side. That was not even something I considered doing. That would have been abhorrent to me, because I possessed empathy and could not comprehend hurting him that way.

I will grant you, I did cheat on DDay. I take no pride in that nor will I deny it. I found out my spouse had slept with a plethora of prostitutes and I lost my mind. So if I'm wayward, I am wayward on the day when I discover that my beloved spouse has been sleeping around with lord only knows how many women behind my back. That was my one and only wayward moment in my entire life.

At this point all this discussion is doing is making me think I should get off my lazy ass and go have some casual sex. While I still have my youth.

The guy that had sex with the 3 females at the sex party...

He was reverse slut shaming them!

Oh and this thread also reminded me of how much I miss make-up sex. I totally forgot about that. So so much make-up sex. I guess one of the few perks of being with a sadistic fuckface who occasionally tries to get a rise out of you so they can get their kicks. Disagreement, she cranks it to 11 to fight my calm demeanor with gaslighting, name-calling, and shouting before feigning peacefulness, hot make-up sex, relationship blasted with some fire for a little while. What a fucking cycle. I'm only half joking about it being a perk.

I found out my spouse had slept with a plethora of prostitutes and I lost my mind. So if I'm wayward, I am wayward on the day when I discover that my beloved spouse has been sleeping around with lord only knows how many women behind my back.

You weren't okay with it for many reasons other than it was just your "personal preference" he not sleep with multiple prostitutes. I'm sure you were shocked, angry and physically repulsed. As you should have been. You didn't lose your mind. You made an accurate value judgement.

As for the wayward thinking, I was talking about the ease with which some make a distinction about "casual, meaningless sex" and "marital sex" -- I have a theory, but it's only a theory, that women do this more than men (yes, men do it, too) because sex is essentially on offer from a never-ending spigot for women. Wherever they turn, women find men offering sex and orbiting at the ready. Men, no matter how attractive they may be, don't generally have this experience. I think we can agree on that. So for women, sex is more like the air you breathe. It doesn't have as high a value on it.

For me, sex is always "meaningful" and never casual. It is fraught with meaning, but that may be because I believe there is a complex exchange going on between two souls, two nervous systems, two microbiomes, etc. And any framing of it as "casual" elides this reality. This is why I find the prospect of a man bedding three women at a sex party, no matter if consensual, gross. Because it is ignoring the complex, very meaningful reality of sex.

EDIT: And if your friend is actually having sex on a regular basis with three women in one night, he's mixing and matching four different human micobiomes and then supplying that petri dish up for his steady to mix with her microbiome. I don't think of sex as being akin to making sauerkraut, but if you're taking this approach, it might as well be.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:58 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

At this point all this discussion is doing is making me think I should get off my lazy ass and go have some casual sex. While I still have my youth.

I wish I could do the same. But I don't know how long is appropriate to wait since I only just left my abuser. Do I have to wait until a divorce is complete, which might take years considering it might not be safe to pursue one at this point (he's in custody right now, true, but who knows how long that will last? and the system has been quite bad in reinforcing the restraining order).

Plus, well, if I add another person to my count, I'm sure I'll be even more slutty in the eyes of others, no matter that it would be with my enthusiastic consent.

The problem is that it is less special with each new partner you have.

It doesn't have to be less special. It's a person's attitude towards their partner that makes sex special.

Know what's sad? Sex used to be special to me. When I met my H, I had half his count. He'd been with more women than I'd been with men and done more things. There were so many things I hadn't done, and I was eager to do them all with him. Time after time, he would tell me that he had already done whatever thing I wanted to try with him, and he'd either say no or else do it with very little enthusiasm. I never pushed his no. I accepted it, because his body is his own. He even called me creepy for wanting to have sex with him (shortly after I learned that he was choosing porn over me), and when he said that, I backed off. I never wanted to pressure him. I didn't want to be like my abusers.

I learned to explain myself better and I asked him what about sex was special with me. He said that I had his baby, and that no one else had his baby before, so as the mother of his child, that made me special. I asked what about the sex itself was special, and he said he had already done everything with everyone else before he'd met me, that sex wasn't new or exciting to him anymore. So I took it to mean that sex itself with me wasn't special to him. He would get angry with me for saying that and told me to not downplay the specialness he felt with me being the mother of his child.

He changed his tune years later, said that sex between us was special, but by then I had already decided to stop seeing sex as special too. I had adopted his viewpoint so it wouldn't hurt so much that he didn't find it special. Plus he confirmed for me more than once that I wasn't his best, though he did try to soften the blow by saying "better than most". And if I was the least bit unhappy with any of what he shared with me, he told me not to shame him for his past. That these were things he did long before he ever met me. I didn't want to shame him - sexual shame is a horrible aftereffect of sexual assault, something we've both endured in our lifetimes, and I didn't want to deepen his trauma. That's when I learned to make this distinction for him: I didn't judge him on his past. I didn't want to take away his positive sexual experiences from before me. Despite that he was accusing me of shaming him, I never once badmouthed his past experiences or thought lowly of him or the girls he enjoyed. I just wanted him to treat what we had as special, and if he didn't already, then work to create those feelings with me, create something brand-new between us (didn't need to be "new moves", just our own special energy). But for so long, he was unwilling to.

Anyway, knowing guys will slut-shame me if I go out there, and knowing that what both my dad and my husband have taught me is true, and the ones who don't slut-shame me probably won't see it as being special with me because I'm nothing special, well... Where does that leave someone like me? Someone who enjoys sex, who cherishes physical intimacy and touch, but who isn't "allowed" to go enjoy it without "consequences" ("don't go have sex if you don't want to be seen as a slut"), while all the guys I know can do as much or as little as they like with no harm to their reputation, and damn anyone who tries to control them with their jealousy. After all, when a girl gets upset about her guy's past, she's told to get over it, to stop acting like a jealous bitch, to stop scaring the guy away from being honest with her, and to do better in bed than his past partners. She's told it's her problem.

I don't feel entitled to anyone. I know it's extreme luck to connect with someone in any of the ways. But I can certainly hate the double standards with a fiery passion. Hating those double standards won't ultimately affect anyone but me.

Silver, I truly do hope that one day you realize it’s an ideology controlling those thoughts, not reality. Honestly, I have great compassion towards you and your story and reading these poisonous thoughts come out through your words...well I wish I could show you another way.

Blahblahblah I didn't object to the list because I'm sure that I said a lot of those things. Some were completely taken out of context, some weren't.

I stand by my assertion that women aren't bad because of their sexual history. As much as some people seem to be ignoring it, there were some very offensive comments in this thread.

Hell even saying "damaged goods" is offensive. Is a woman an object in the scratch and dent section now?

I'm fighting this one because it's harmful to stigmatize women for their sexuality. Women are still blamed for rape. Women are still afraid to come forward in sexual harassment cases because they're worried about their reputations.

I think you were the one who brought up new HR rules.

They're a godsend. Before the new rules, someone in upper management could sneak up behind me, rub his dick in my butt, have the whole thing recorded on the security camera, and get away with it. Because I was nice to him earlier that day. Because I froze and didn't say no. I'm probably asking for it and then running to HR to ruin his career. That's the bullshit women deal with. Now there's some progress. The next time someone touched me he was fired with cause that same day. I wasn't questioned about my behaviour or what i was wearing. Same with the guy who asked me if I had panties on under my dress at the company Christmas party last year. I didn't even have to say anything, he was fired the next day. Progress.

Not saying all men are creeps either so please don't jump to that conclusion. I'm just saying that things haven't been wonderful for women, and it's fantastic that people are finally taking a stand.

What's funny about this entire conversation is that everyone on this thread (being a human and all) does what every human does every day whether he or she wants to admit it - judge other people. In fact, there is a head-spinning amount of judging going on in this thread. Some people even wear black robes and get paid well to judge for a living. When 12 people gather to sit in a jury box to judge another human being and to judge the prosecutor's presentation of the evidence, we tell them what a wonderful service they are providing the community.

Judging. It's what we do.

I once had the misfortune of encountering a flatearther, this reminded me a bit of that discussion.

I immediately judged that person as soon as I read this comment. It was automatic. I'm thinking the person might be either completely irrational, or of modest IQ.

A mate or potential mate of the (hypothetical, probably) woman in this scenario would have every right and rational basis for making a judgment about her based on the updated info he just received. He wouldn't be human if he didn't. He might very well come to the conclusion that the behavior exhibited on that video was indicative of a whole range of issues that might make the woman less than a suitable life partner.

He might conclude or strongly suspect that she has low morals, has low self-esteem, poor boundaries, is extremely promiscuous, has mental health issues, abuses substances (if that was a factor in the decision to be filmed having sex with multiple men), has low respect for her body and/or sexuality, sees sex as more of a transactional act than a deeply meaningful experience, is a poor candidate to remain interested in long-term monogamy, has sexual needs and desires that are outside of his capabilities and interests, or a whole host of other things.

And he may be wrong about all or some of the above. But to say that a life partner or potential life partner isn't entitled to know about past behavior that is that extreme, or that he isn't entitled to process that information and make a judgment that concerns the rest of his life on this earth...that's just silly.

Edited for clarity

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:38 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]