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Betrayed Womenz Thread - Part 3

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cocoplus5nuts posted 12/16/2019 09:08 AM

OMG! I almost lost it the other day!

I pulled some clothes out of the washing machine and something dropped on the floor. I looked down and it was the end of a torn condom wrapper! This particular load of laundry had only my and my fch's clothes in it. I knew that condom wrapper wasn't mine.

I'm not good at holding things in, so I immediately sent him a pic of it with a ,"WTF is this?!" text. Of course, he had no idea. He denied that it was his. I texted our 15yo son at school to ask if it was his. He said he has abstained for a while now, so it wasn't his. (Yes, our 15yo is/was sexually active.)

I asked my fch about it again, face to face. Again, he said it wasn't his. He was "annoyed" that I didn't believe him. I asked if he could blame me and he said he couldn't. I also told him that he doesn't get the annoyed. He can be upset or bothered by the fact that I don't believe him, but being annoyed is unacceptable. He agreed.

I showed the wrapper to my 15yo this morning. He said, "Oooh, um, yeah, that's mine, but it's really old." I had done a load of his laundry just before the one that the wrapper fell out of. So...added fun to having a cheater and more than one sexually active male in my home.

CallingSpades posted 12/16/2019 21:43 PM

Oh my goodness, Coco, bless your heart. You REALLY held it together. I would have been a mess! So sorry you had to deal with this collossal trigger! And fch's annoyance on top of it all.

I've been reading (trying to catch up to you) this thread for a while and I'm in awe of you Womenz. Your strength and humor are a huge source of hope for me.

CallingSpades posted 12/16/2019 22:50 PM

Hi, all. I'm newish and hope it's ok that I post here. But I'm heading into a tough time over the holidays and based on reading through this thread, this is the only place I wanted to hear from. Sorry but...I think this post might get long.

I'm separated from WH and haven't seen him since my birthday in August when he got on a plane, just over two months out from DDay. He's working overseas and the fam was supposed to accompany him...but that was before DDay. I elected not to leave our close family and friends and travel to aforeign country with someone who lied and betrayed me.

I quit our teleconference MC at the end of October because instead of remorse I was getting anger and blame, and it was dragging me down. He asked if I wanted D and I said yes. I still talk to him every weekend about kids, finances, etc. It's civil, even friendly, and fake. Now he's coming home for two weeks to spend the holidays with the kids. He flies in Friday night, his mom is picking him up, and then he's staying in our home from the second night on, probably on an air mattress.

So I'm a mess.

I've spent most of my paid time off taking care of the kids while he's been gone, so I won't be home except actual holidays/eves and weekends. This is good because I can stay away from him, but it really is creeping me out that he's going to be in my house, my space, with our kids and have free rein. NO idea how I'm going to concentrate and be productive at work.

He has covert narc tendencies, is very conflict avoidant, but I sense anger and contempt when I'm not meeting his expectations. it's uncomfortable to be around him. For the time he was here after DDay he would follow me around and "make" me hug him. He would say vaguely creepy things like, "I feel like I can't bring up any issues because it will just make things worse," like he has major secret issues with me (who knows). After he left he tried to force me and guilt me into doing generic positive marriage exercises with him, I assume to make me say nice things about him. Yes, he read "How to help your spouse heal" and "not just friends," and generally performed the actions and said the words they told him to. After he left the blame and entitlement crept back in. Now, I have no idea if it's going to be more of the same manipulative-seeming tactics (and who knows, it could all be sincere and I'm just paranoid)....or will it be the discard.

I'm no angel myself, got a few years of CoD resentment under my belt. But I'm getting better with the help of my IC.

I've 180'd pretty hard for about two months now but that's pretty easy when he's not here and there's an 8 hour time difference. Since I said I want to D, he seems like he's trying to 180 ME. Joining a softball team, being over involved with the church (all new stuff), no more daily emails about what he's doing. I think he may be trying to punish me but it's kind of just back to similar contact to what we've had throughout our marriage, so no pain here. Worrying about what he's planning though...doing lots of that.

This is getting so so long. So let's just see: what do you think I should do? I know I don't owe him anything, but should I reiterate to the father of my children what I would need to stay with him, and why I am moving to D? He acts like he doesn't get it, but do I even want to get into that fight? Should I just maintain the 180 and not answer his questions? Should I get him a polygraph for Christmas, or use the opportunity while he's here to try to get more information, or give him another chance to come clean? (note: he's been in IC I suspect at least one prior EA/PA and he has training that could help him beat a poly.) Should I call my attorney and have him served over the holiday, and risk exposing my kids to an ugly reaction? (note: I don't think he believes I will follow through, at least not so decisively.)

So many options, so little time. The only thing I've decided for sure is that I will send him an email the day before he arrives, saying to please not touch me or expect me to touch him. He will be mad but, tough cookies. I can't take any more creepy hugs. Oh and I've hidden my paper and electronic documents, valuables, and the kids' passports. Ok so maybe I'm a little paranoid.

Well nice to "meet" you amazing ladies, even if it's while I'm a bit of a nervous wreck. Hope all your holiday preparations or lack thereof are going beautifully. I put up all the lights we own, all over the front of the house. I'm pretty proud of it. Merry shitmas! It's gonna be a good one, I can just tell.

gmc94 posted 12/16/2019 23:43 PM

Spades - welcome to Betrayed Womenz.

hmmmm, sounds like you might be on something similar to a rollercoaster!

Only you can decide what's best for you. I saw another post today that got me thinking.... IF your WH were to actually "do the work" would you WANT to R? My answer has always been a decided "yes" - but my WH has not done the work, and it sounds like yours hasn't either. And as we've all come to find out (the hard way- right?), we can't make them do anything. They have to WANT it, and want it bad.... and from your post it sounds like maybe he doesn't want it?

One thing that did pop into my mind reading your post is I'd talk to my attorney about serving him with D papers (I'd be inclined to serve the day or two before he leaves - less time for him to go batsh*t).

it really is creeping me out that he''s going to be in my house, my space, with our kids and have free rein.
is there anything specific about this that's creeping you out?

gmc94 posted 12/17/2019 00:18 AM

Well, after reading the last couple of days of BW thread, I am firmly in the "Oh fuck!" place of - when am I gonna buy the damn Christmas tree?

I was on that road trip over thanksgiving, when I usually do it. I'm now realizing it may be slim pickins, like the Charlie Brown tree.

We got hit with some serious effing snow yesterday & today... no, nothing like Denver (but I was thinking of Ellie when watching the idiots drive. Sheesh, these folks are either barreling WAY to fast in the residential sections, or doing 10mph on the highway. It ain't rocket science, folks! )

My DD started drug/alcohol treatment today. It was required for her DWI, but she tested into level 3 (of 4), which means probably a month or so of group and IC. Too early to tell how effective it will all be (plenty of red flags still) but she's been in a really good place this weekend. So, in this moment, I've got a bit of hope that she may be able to find herself again, preferably with sobriety, but I'm gonna take her good place when it happens.

My family has a tradition of home made gifts, something I enjoyed doing with the family (or at least DD sitting with me while I sewed, painted, cooked, or whatever the project was that year). It's weird doing it alone, but I'm OK with it. WH came over this weekend and made something himself. It's so fucked up that we get on so well as long as it's all rugsweeping.

WH sees a CSAT for 1st time this week. I guess I'm happy he's doing it, but holding on to some lingering resentment about his waiting so fucking long to explore this option. I figure if this IC can't help him see just how far his head is lingering up his colon, the only remaining option is inpatient SA treatment, which I don't think he would ever do (assuming he even gets an SA Dx from the CSAT). Sometimes just saying that shit freaks me out... how the fuck did I ever end up here?

Looks like it's time for me to whip up another batch of homemade (sugar free) bailey's. Yum.

skeetermooch posted 12/17/2019 00:36 AM

Hi Spade,

after DDay he would follow me around and "make" me hug him. He would say vaguely creepy things like, "I feel like I can't bring up any issues because it will just make things worse,"

OMG that's my STBX - carbon copy. The forced hugs - awful. The hinting that he had justifications - yep. Gross and infuriating and manipulative.

Your boundary around touch sounds like a good start and sending it now to give him time to get over it also sounds smart. It lets him know that, No, we aren't pretending everything's normal when you get back here. That's a pretty clear message.

When my STBX is in my house I'm extremely paranoid. We've been living apart for two months and I've really reclaimed this space energetically. I watch him like a hawk when he's been here. I fear he will take something important too - like financial records or my passport. Like you, I think I have everything important locked down or stashed but it's possible that I overlooked something.

It's not paranoid when they've already betrayed us in the worst possible ways and show little remorse. They have proven they are capable of doing things we never thought them capable of - so yes, two weeks with your kids alone while you're at work is scary. You could do a voice activated recorder if you're afraid of what he's saying to the kids.

CallingSpades posted 12/17/2019 00:52 AM

GMC, thanks for the response.

First, no, I don't want to reconcile, because I don't "want" anything to do with him. At all. But it's still early so I know my feelings can change. And that would be great because well, a dad is a good thing for kids to have. Very pertinent question, thank you.

What is creeping me out is that he is so covert with his true emotions/thoughts. The last day of MC I called him out on sitting there in silent anger while I tried to describe through tears what I needed. When I called the therapist later to cancel the next session, she told me she was so surprised when I said he was angry and he suddenly blew up, seemingly out of nowhere. She hadn't seen any anger. But after a decade looking at that face, he looked to me like a seething pool of lava. I really feel there's so much anger and hatred inside of him, and he becomes such a different person in an instant when his ego is challenged (or he thinks it is). And I think divorcing him is probably the most insulting thing I've ever done, so...

Specific things that have me on edge are: He definitely blames me and has accused me of infidelity. Not true, but I'm sure if D is on the table, he will search for anything he can use. I don't want him in my things, even though he'll find nothing at all. He also has a software engineering degree and wrote a keylogger for a class project. When he moved, he left behind our computer that he built himself - weird. I just FEEL spied on. Also one of the first things he asked about after he moved was what I was going to do with the jewelry he has given me. He said if I ever wanted to sell it, give him the opportunity to buy it back. For what, I don't know. He said it's meaningful which sounds nice, but he doesn't save mementos of anything. He doesn't even take a picture of his kids with him when he's living elsewhere. I've never caught him snooping or stealing, but he does keep everything of his locked up tight. Computer security, car, everything. Lastly, he spent a lot of energy trying to make me fill out a monthly financial worksheet he dreamed up, and share my account statements with him (because he had to open all his accounts to me), then he called my son's daycare to get statements. I filled out the worksheet until last month. No more homework, I'm done. So he's mad about that and might try to get my financial information. Whew.

Maybe I sound crazy and he will do none of these things. But we didn't have a shared account for over ten years, five of which I was primary caretaker of the children while he traveled internationally. Does this sounds normal to you? And my stupid CoD self just felt I didn't deserve access or a right to make decisions about finances because I wasn't the primary breadwinner. So I'm trying not to be stupid anymore. And it's veering into crazy, I fear lol.

Thanks for the response and the questions. I keep trying to reason and predict and plan my way off this rollercoaster, even though I know it's not possible.

CallingSpades posted 12/17/2019 01:08 AM

GMC, p.s. good luck to both your daughter and H. Fingers crossed! And with a new year coming up too, that's gotta be lucky.

Skeeter, probably you can tell how badly I needed to hear that. I'm so sorry though, that you can identify with this.

I'm thankful that his behavior's not "worse," but at the same time, it leaves me constantly second guessing and guilt tripping myself. When you can just FEEL that something is off, but he refuses to admit that anything is amiss except by giving you random Passive aggressive one liners (i'm waiting for him to tell me that if I wasn't so "disrespectful," none of this would have happened. Classic and typical him.)... Well when you feel something is off, you're constantly wondering what, exactly, it is. That's how I discovered his EA/PA. Basically I guessed.

So now I can't stop guessing. And with him on the way home, I'm like "Preppers" over here. By Friday I'll be digging out a bunker in the basement.

And I've got to pretend to be chill and 180

[This message edited by CallingSpades at 1:10 AM, December 17th, 2019 (Tuesday)]

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/17/2019 06:51 AM

CS, why are you letting him stay in your home? I would not let him in your home. You don't have to. He left. Tell him to stay at his mother's. I would put that computer away. It is very likely that he is spying on you. I read something recently about someone using a USB plug with a hidden camera to spy on his ex. Creepy!

Trust your gut. If you feel like something is off, it probably is. Don't minimize that for the sake of politeness or keeping the peace. If he is a covert narc, he could become dangerous once he realizes he really is losing control.

Talk to your lawyer. Wait until after the holidays to serve him. I like their dea of doing it only a day or 2 before he leaves again.

I wouldn't bother trying to talk to him or explain to him, yet again, what you need. He knows. He just doesn't want to do it. He's trying to manipulate you. Don't let him! Also, don't waste your time and money on a polygraph. You're done. You don't want R. It doesn't matter if there's more, unless you think it could help you in the D.

GMC, I hope this time clicks with your DD. Even if it doesn't, every time is one more seed planted.

CS, I was interestingly very calm about the condom. I triggered for like a second and that it was gone. No anxiety or panic attack.

My thoughts were more along the lines of, if that fucker is cheating again, I'm done! It's hard to explain, but there's a huge part of me that just doesn't care. He killed any feelings of that special live I had for him when he cheated. I'm not emotionally invested in our relationship anymore.

I, also, pretty much knew he wasn't cheating. Again, I can't explain it. I just know. My gut hasn't failed me yet. Either way, I know I'll be ok. I don't need him.

I need to get to wrapping and baking! I'm pretty sure I'm missing a box or ornaments. Who knows where they are? The movers packed everything so randomly. None of it makes sense.

Anyway, I've decided we'll make some ornaments. I came across a recipe for salt dough. I remember making salt dough ornaments with my brother when I was a kid. He would lick the ornaments because he loved salt. Ew! One good childhood memory. I've gotta get myself to Michael's!

My 8yo just said it's weird that I bought all the presents this year. Dad usually does that. I realized this is the first year since dday that I've done any gift shopping. I wasn't up for it before.

EllieKMAS posted 12/17/2019 08:35 AM

Hey Spades - ugh sorry he is putting a damper in your holiday. What a douche. I would take all your valuables and such and have a trusted friend keep them or get a safety deposit box. I don't look at that as paranoid, it's just smart. Just my 0.02. Oh and welcome to BWT!

gmc - why do you have to buy a tree? I didn't decorate this year. That would've taken way too much energy Fingers crossed for your DD! Hopefully she finds sobriety!

I am at work but wish I was home in my jammies!

Chaos posted 12/17/2019 09:26 AM

Welcome Spades! I'm Chaos - a BASGU. D2DW someone has shown you our Womenz Dictionary already.

And I'm frantic for the Season. Trying to do too much with not enough time LOL.

My new mug from an employee says it all - "whatever - I'm still fabulous"

Forgive me if I'm quasi-absent for the Holidays. They are...well...Chaos

So...Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Wonderful Winter Solstice, Festivus Maximus to you all. Whatever you celebrate, may there be some sort of sparkle in your day.

On a positive note - I've yet to say FUCK YOU to my tree this year. Let's see if I can make it.

Hallelujah! Holy Shit! Where's the Tylenol!

CallingSpades posted 12/17/2019 10:34 AM

Thank you ladies!! Everything sensitive (docs, jewelry, evidence of the A) is packed to be removed from the house. I just needed someone to push me to do it. Anyone who's done this kind of thing before - what am I forgetting?

Thanks, Coco. He's staying at the house to be with the kids. Not only will he be watching them while I'm at work, so it simplifies things for me, but there's nothing cuter than these little guys coming in their PJ's to wake you up. I may want to set WH's crotch on fire, but I don't want to take the kids away from him, or him away from the kids. They love him. That won't make me stay married but... Well we're not D yet. Here's the weird thing though. His step mom and great aunt said the same thing (don't let him stay in the house). I did NOT expect that from them. How messed up is that?? Maybe I should take the hint(s)...

WH never helps much with holiday prep as he's not home much, but it is our tradition to go cut a real tree at a local farm. We're still doing it on Saturday. Chaos... there will be an unimaginable number of FUCK YOU'S said to and around the tree... For the sake of my children I will try to keep the cursing inside my head. I think what I'm searching for is #KTHITD

Coco, I hope you find those lost ornaments. My ornaments are precious to me, and they are a mishmash of things from my family and things I collected in travels - a big beautiful mess. One year WH and I put the tree up and an hour or so later it came crashing down (too big for our stand I think). It broke two vintage glass bulbs from when I was a kid. So again. Fuck you, tree.

And shopping... Santa is a bit behind. I was doing well emotionally, and left a lot of shopping to do later because I did not expect to be completely consumed by anxiety. But your words have helped so much already. Hopefully I can catch up!

skeetermooch posted 12/17/2019 12:49 PM


This might be obvious - but get all internet capable devices out if possible. Since he knows computers - you don't want him hacking a password and putting key logging software on or something.

Congrats on getting this done!

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/17/2019 14:26 PM

His step mom and great aunt said the same thing (don't let him stay in the house). I did NOT expect that from them. How messed up is that?? Maybe I should take the hint(s)...

Maybe you should
Why can't you take the kids to him before you go to work? Or, he can pick them up. Seriously, I don't see any reason why he needs to be in your home.

gmc94 posted 12/17/2019 16:25 PM

I understand wanting the kids to have their dad, but they CAN do that at grandmas house.
If that doesn't work for YOU, then I'm with the others - move anything you don't want him to touch out of the house. Secure anything that has an internet connection (and I would probably plan to completely reset the wifi router once he's gone - new router name and new router password... may not be enough to stop someone with his skills, but I'd still do it if for no other reason than to check and see what devices it's speaking to. I am not tech savvy, but I'm wondering if he could have set up his computer to intercept anything of yours [like your computer or phone or tablet] when it talks to the router).

And I'm with Coco on polygraph, etc. That's why I asked if you were interested in R if he were to start pulling his head out of his arse. I can't quite pull that trigger myself, and have total respect and support for those who can. Anyhow, if you are not interested in R, then no need to get any further info (unless you live in a fault state and your attorney thinks it could help - let that be a lawyer call).

This is a time for you to focus on you. Any CoD (or alanon) meeting/materials will say the same thing - you have to take care of yourself first. And that may even mean that dad is at grandma's for the bulk of his visit (even if it's Ok for a couple of days and then goes downhill, there is nothing wrong with saying you need him to leave for a day or two or the rest of his visit). Take care!

CallingSpades posted 12/17/2019 21:25 PM

gmc, thank you! You're right, I'm setting boundaries but they're too close for comfort. I can't sacrifice my own mental health for his needs, or even the kids. I forget who said if things go south, I can kick him out - I'm just going to have to keep this as option A rather than the nuclear option, which is probably what I would have done: wait until I was literally shaking and unable to eat before making him leave.

This covert crap is so tricky, because he isn't actually doing anything objectively horrible. And any time I push back, he's an innocent victim. Crazy-making indeed.

Skeeter, you're definitely right. I found several users with access to my folders on his desktop computer, with randomized-character names like they were accessing via VPN or something. I took away their permissions but haven't figured out where they came from in the first place. I have nothing to hide but he has plenty of time to get creative. I think I'll stop by the independent computer repair place for advice. They already said to bring the computer in after he leaves and they'll check it for spyware.

HeHadADoubleLife posted 12/18/2019 00:20 AM

Oh man Coco, I'm not good at holding that shit in either. Whenever I found anything weird I would text a pic and a WTF? Good thing that it turned out to be your son's!

gmc, so great that your daughter is getting treatment!! Putting out good vibes for her, and for you. I've watched my brother turn his whole life around with his sobriety, it can work. In fact, I'll manifest it for you - it WILL work.

Glad your H finally agreed to see a CSAT, though I hear you on the waiting that long to finally go through with it. Keep us posted on what comes of that!

skeeter and spades, welcome ladies!!

And Spades, I want to echo what seems to be the general consensus which is, once you've been betrayed, it's not paranoid to constantly be thinking of how they might betray you again, it's fucking prudent!

If his own godmother and stepmother are also saying he shouldn't stay in the house, that would make my spidey senses go off. What does your own gut tell you?

Chaos, of course you are fabulous. You don't need a mug to tell you that! I have been seeing unicorn related gift items EVERYWHERE while shopping recently. I hope someone gifts you at least one of these items this holiday season!

Ok ladies, I am normally fully on board the KTHITD train. Last year I was the conductor of the damn thing. This year, I was content to just be a passenger. But I may be changing my tune.

DD20 let me know that my Christmas present had come in. True to form, she wanted to give it to me early (She's not good at hiding stuff, she gets too excited and can't hold it in. She takes after her father that way). She doesn't make a ton, so buying me anything at all is such a wonderful surprise.

So I went to pick her up today so we could have another fun holiday night, drink some cocoa, do some face masks, hang out with the kitties and watch TV etc. I gave her the one small gift I had already wrapped for her, that way we could both open something.

I LOVE that they are a matching set, one for each of us. We both immediately put them on. She was so excited to give it to me. I think she really liked that I wanted to take a picture of it, I told her so I could show my friends She asked "did you read what it says??" just to make sure. I read pretty quickly, so I think she thought I might have skipped over it when I went to put it on so quickly haha. She was also super excited to tell me about how she paid extra to get the pretty wrapping, as well as the two special pouches for us to store them in. I told her I can't imagine I'll ever need the storage pouch though, as I don't plan on taking this baby off!

I know the holidays are such a tough time in the midst of all of the crap life threw at us. But I wanted to throw in a little holiday cheer as well

Well damn if I'm not the Grinch because she made my hardened little heart grow at least three sizes today!

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/18/2019 06:47 AM

HHADL, that is so beautiful! I got all choked up. My heart feels a few sizes bigger, too. Thank you for sharing that.

CS, do you know why those 2 people told you not to let your CH stay in your home? Is it because he cheated and they don't think you should let him back, or are they concerned for your safety?

Ugh, y'all. I started a thread in general about some shit going on with my fch. I'm trying to figure out this CoD recovery stuff. Now, I don't want to go back to it. I feel like I've been put on the defensive by one person. We've clashed in the past over CoD stuff. Somehow, my porr little CoD fch has become the victim of my selfishness. Nevermind that I'm the victim of his lies and deceit and cheating. I don't know if I have the emotional fortitude to go back to my own thread.

cocoplus5nuts posted 12/18/2019 06:50 AM

Good thing that it turned out to be your son's!

Even after my son said it was his, I wondered. Maybe he was covering for his dad. I don't think he was. I don't think he knows he would need to. When I initially asked if it was his, I asked if he was sure it wasn't, thinking maybe he was embarrassed to say. I told him if it wasn't his, it had to be his dad's. He still said it wasn't his. So, I don't think he would turn around a week or whatever later and lie to protect his dad. So nice, though, that that is a place my mind goes now.

DaisyAnne posted 12/18/2019 07:27 AM

Coco, yikes! I would have freaked out too. But I would have freaked out even if my husband never cheated because we haven't used condoms in over 20 years! I am glad it turned out to be your sons.

gmc, sending good thoughts to you and your daughter!

Spades, welcome!! I also agree with the womenz, you need to do what is best for YOU. Sounds like there would be nothing positive with him staying with you.

Chaos, you are the definition of fabulous!

HHADL, that is beautiful!

Hi womenz! I have been trying to stay off SI a bit. I have found that I have been almost addicted to checking SI everyday and the whole betrayal too much lately and it hasn't been helping me. I am going to just stick to this thread because you all make me laugh and that is obviously needed. But the rest of the forums just aren't helping me right now.

Quick update on me: My birthday was last weekend and my fwh took me out for dinner the night before and made me dinner the day of my birthday. He did all he could to make me feel loved, appreciated and special. He is trying so hard and that is one big reason why I am trying to focus on the future. I am not going to rugsweep and I will keep my guard up, but I also need to focus on our future. 2019 sucked ass. I am going to make 2020 kick ass!

[This message edited by DaisyAnne at 7:29 AM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

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