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In any way. What if tomorrow she comes to you says that her fantasy guy is one with tattoos, body piercings, and a blue mohawk who wore tight leather pants. Would you change your appearance to feed her desire?

within reason yes, tats ok and i have already agreed to get one on my shoulder, neck and face, no way. Piercings well the existing holes in my ears have never healed up although i have not had any studs in for a few years, blue mohawk no way, leather pants hmm in public or private?

I am 40 next birthday and stuff from places like All Saints is more my thing.

BravesirrobinI know what you are saying. I did do that on purpose. I pointed out in earlier posts that her excuses were bullshit, yet he seems happy with it-so if he is and that is good enough for him, then on that road I will go down with this particular wayward. Since they don't want to dig any deeper than bullshit superficial reasons for cheating. He isn't digging deeper, so lets go with it. He caused her to cheat because of the way he treated her and the marriage. The AP for a brief period of time gave her something he didn't. Then, she got her bucket filled by him and jumped ship because what she object valued the most was going to possibly divorce her. I mean it wasn't the RA. She already knew he was the type to be vengeful, she still decided to cheat anyways. Cheating couldn't possibly have anything to do with both of them having low self esteem, self confidence, no self respect for themselves or others, and expecting other people to make them happy. Not at all.

Why do you think i am not emotionally involved? stepford wife.

Because of the reasons you gave us for her choice to cheat.

I have given up a club i very much enjoyed and will be joining a new running club with my wife.

How does that change who you are? How does that change the prideful man that just had to cheat on his wife to get even? The man that treats his wife like a trophy?

When life gets complacent again and you stop and realize the other spouse isn't doing their job to make you happy...what then? When you realize you never progressed through the stages of a committed relationship or grew as people? Still stuck in the honeymoon phase you think will save everything?

Pick me dance isn't just for the AP..it is to avoid future APs that you might get that could potentially get her kicked to the curb.

ZUG, You are far to "hardcore" for me

Lacking self confidence and self esteem lol one of my issues is an excess of both, hell i could not do my job without self confidence.

When complacency returns, best Julie and I will have to make sure it dosent, one thing we are putting in place is monthly honesty meetings and we have agreed to express any concerns before resentment builds up.

We have both badly hurt each other and we both realise what we could have lost, a fright like that tends to concentrate the mind.

When we were at the cottage Julie said to me, lets just be us again, i will settle for that

Anything that happens after that point, and before they both choose to reconcile and commit to a new marriage is not cheating. Though clearly it would make reconciliation more difficult if the WS has double standards.

If the marriage was already over, sex outside it was no longer cheating, and you don't approve of double standards, then do you believe it would not be cheating if Buzzy's wife slept with OM (or anyone else) while Buzzy and Claire were in Seville?

BSR, DR:

Of course Buzzy’s wife can sleep with whoever at that point.

If Buzzy and Buzzy’s wife want to eventually R, those actions won’t help for sure, if one or both of them do it. It doesn’t make R impossible, but more difficult.

I also agree that what Buzzy did is Revenge. But I don’t see it as an affair.

Imagine the following situation:

Spouse come home one day and say: I know I promised to be faithful when we married, but I changed my mind. Starting next week, I will start dating other people and have sex with them. You can stay in the “marriage” or leave. Is that an affair?

self confidence and self esteem lol one of my issues is an excess of both

I am of the opinion that if you had an excess of both, you wouldn't be so bothered by a hit to your pride enough to seek revenge in order to feel better about yourself because you would have realized that your wife's cheating wasn't about your self worth. You would have been secure enough to not seek revenge to build up your validation. I know plenty of people that say they have self confidence and act the part, yet deep down it is the complete opposite underneath it all. Especially those that need so much control in order to protect their fragile egos. You have addressed many ways to have a better relationship. Nothing about your faults you brought into the relationship to make it fail. Though honesty meetings are a good start to vulnerability.

Well, Shutter, that's a consistent position, which is more than many arguments on this thread have offered.

I think the catch in your example is that most people don't make that kind of shift in a vacuum. By the time they decide to step outside the marriage, they've usually identified a candidate and are involved in some kind of EA. In that case, informing a spouse of your intentions doesn't "unaffair" the relationship. It's already an A, and you're just adding a PA aspect.

That would have been the problem in my own situation. We weren't committed in any official capacity (engagement, marriage), so I would have been perfectly within my rights to tell my BF that I had decided to sleep with other people and to give him the option of a non-exclusive relationship or a breakup. However, OM specifically would have been the trigger for that announcement. BF would have seen the months that led up to that decision on my part as cheating and felt that I betrayed him, in a way that would not have been the case if I just told him that we weren't going to work out as a couple.

^^ What she said is how my H says he would have felt had I divorced him pre-PA. He said it still would have already been cheating if I wanted to leave him for someone else even if nothing physical had yet occurred.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 7:35 PM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

Lacking self confidence and self esteem lol one of my issues is an excess of both, hell i could not do my job without self confidence.

I submit that your self-worth is tied up in very superficial things. How you look, where you buy your clothes, how hot your wife/AP is, etc. It is all about how you think other people perceive you. You are relating to people not as people but as objects, specifically using them as mirrors to see an image you like reflected back to you. Your wife's affair meant that the image reflected back to you from her mirror was "guy who gets cheated on". Your response to the crummy feelings that come along with that not-so-great self image was not a healthy one. It wasn't healing. You tossed your own integrity overboard for the some short-lived feelings of righteous revenge. And you didn't give a shit about your AP's integrity either. Neither of you is better off for having had an affair.

One of the best things you (or anyone) can do to promote personal growth is keep your defenses low and your curiosity high. Defenses low. Curiosity high.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

You tossed your own integrity overboard for the some short-lived feelings of righteous revenge.

Exactly and from what you wrote as your wife's response, you have a history of doing this in response to your image being tarnished. A more confident person wouldn't let that bother them so much. It wouldn't be about what other people think. They would be secure enough for themselves to stand alone.

Buzzy, thought I'd throw some positive thoughts your way. Sounds like you and your wife are both trying really hard to do it right, good for you guys. Scheduling a monthly meeting for your marriage and spending more time together as a family are both very wise IMO.

You've hung in through 15 pages of bricks and 2x4's and are still posting. Even better it appears you've taken some good advice to heart and it seems to have worked for you. Or at the very least has spurred you on to self-reflection leading to this change in your relationship.

Lots of advice in recent pages recommending some formal counselling for the two of you. I think that would be wise, might help to prevent recurrence of recent bad behaviours. But you you guys seem to be succeeding keeping your problems in house, looking forward not back, maybe with a touch of English keep-calm-and- carry-on. Best of luck.

STAP, Thank you for your very kind words.

Your right i have been given some 4x2 but maybe i needed them to get some sense through my thick skull.

Not so very long ago I came on here with the attitude that we were trying to R but wanted to be told it was all HER fault and everything I did was because of HER and she deserved it but in truth she did have an A and it hurt but compared to what i did to my wife it was nothing. The things I have been told on here were hard to accept but mostly justified.

I sometimes look at my Julie and just smile, sometimes its a sad smile but when she smiles back everything is right in my world and I never knew how wonderful it is to be hugged by my wife.

Julie never turned her back on me even when I was at my worst and I will be forever thankful.

...she did have an A and it hurt but compared to what i did to my wife it was nothing.

Caution on readily just assuming roles based on what you’re seeing here, Buzzy. WW dealt you a shitty hand- I disagree with how you played that hand, but as STAP emphasized, you’re still still here and eager to improve. My suggestion is to remove the word “compared” from the discussion altogether. I think understanding how the two of you approached conflict previously (via IC) will be a logical first step in your progress forward.

But I want to ensure that you don’t feel somehow unwarranted in processing the betrayal that started this whole thing. “Helping your Spouse Heal” highlights that RAs complicate matters in that both parties need to process- The important part is that it’s understood that unpacking both simultaneously puts too much emotion in it even for this community. (That’s a paraphrase, but...)

My advice is worth very little on the topic of R, but nonetheless I want to ensure you don’t tamp down some emotion that might manifest elsewhere later.

[This message edited by JBWD at 3:44 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]

Julie never turned her back on me even when I was at my worst and I will be forever thankful.

Okay, erasing most all the other details about your situation and this thread, I want to say something about this statement.

I think we have a lot of reformed waywards here that feel this exact way. Maybe it wasn't the affair that helped you at all. Maybe what has helped you the most without you realizing it was her consistency after her affair. I think for most BS that is what can really help their healing process, a consistent WS who takes whatever is thrown.

We say often what happens after DDAY can almost be more important than anything else. The fact that she took everything you threw at her - the words, the cold shoulder, and I will even begrudgingly add the affair, that shifted your confidence in her. In that way, I don't think your story is all that uncommon.

JBWD, I hear what you are saying and will take it on board.

Hiking, you really are perceptive and what you say makes a lot of sense.

Regarding IC, we discussed it last night and decided to see how we go and make a decision in the new year.

Family time this Sunday, both my kids have their own bedrooms at my parents house and we are all going out to choose the new decor for their rooms, we will let the kids choose within reason. Six people in Ikea all with their own ideas, i think i will sit in the cafe area and let them get on with it 😁.

Emotional roller coaster.

Things are going well however my wife's emotions seem to be all over the place.

First she has become very sexually aggressive (not complaining) and constantly initiating sex, she is carrying out all and every sexual act with what seems to be enthusiasm (again not complaining) but the other night I woke up to find her crying, when I asked what was wrong she said "I cannot get the photograph of you and Claire outside the cafe out of my mind" I tell her over and over how much I love her, how Claire is just a memory, how much i regret hurting her.

Next morning she is back to happy Julie again.

The reason I posted is last night I said I was going for a bath, Julie said I will open a bottle of wine and bring a glass up to you, just about to get into the bath and i realise I had left my magazine down stairs, went down to get it and I saw her flicking through my phone (she did not see me) no problem she has and always has had all my codes even for my work phone. I went back upstairs and got into the bath.

Ten or so minutes later she brought in the wine and then got into the bath with me.

She is obviously worried and I don't know how to fully reassure her, any advice please.

And what is she saying about her lover? Or in her mind is Claire the only issue?

Does she see that she is also a cheater, and Claire would not have happened if she hadn’t cheated on you first?

BBS here. Buzzy, you already have a wonderful example of what to do at home. Follow her lead. Hikingout nailed when she said that the thing that helps a BS the most is a WS who takes everything a BS throws and is unfalteringly supportive. You and i were both lucky enough to get that in our WS's. Your job now is to return the favour. Keep reassuring her, be honest, answer every question she has, keep paying attention to her needs even if she tries to hide her pain.

In your shoes, i would also tell her point blank how much you have come to realize how much she helped you heal through her actions post dday, and how you are trying to follow her good example.

Since you have only recently had a change of heart about your own actions, please make sure you have communicated this with her. And then take time to reflect on your own experience as a BS and remember it will take time for her to heal. Nothing would have reassured you right away. You needed time and consistent actions before you felt better. Well, so does she now. So dont beat yourself up that you cant fix this faster. You cant. Just keep showing her you are doing your own work.

[This message edited by IHatePickingName at 6:47 AM, November 29th (Friday)]

NLIG, Julie is very aware of what lead to my RA however that is not my concern at the moment.

IHPN, Good points, I worry that the "enhanced" sex is ONLY because she thinks I want it (I do), she claims that she had an "awakening" and this is what she had suppressed in herself for years and she loves it, I will take her at her word but it still concerns me somewhat that she is acting a part to please me.

She has also started swearing a lot which is very unlike her when it comes to sex such as "come on I wanna fuck".

As advised I will bare my soul to her.

I think this all really goid buzzy. I really do.

This is kinda just julies karma tbh. Ya know? But, this pain that she’s feeling... it will ensure she never cheats again. I bet in part of her tears, she’s also crying with guilt bc she knows your affair was out of revenge for what she had done to you. That pain is real and will come and go for quite some time. Allowing her the freedom to pursue looking at your phone... tell her that you don’t mind she does that if you don’t. I think would not like the sneaking to read the phone. I think it’s more positive to communicate with honesty. Offer her your phone. Tell her she can look at it as often as she likes but it’s ok to put the boundary on it to say you want to know about it. Only because sneaking like that is wayward behavior. You are both waywards so IMHO eliminating sneaky from your NEW marriage is necessary.

Infidelity is messy for the rest of the lifetime but realizing the pain that encompasses it for EVERYONE isn’t alwAys so bad bc it keeps us waywards accountable. At least it does me.

This is still fresh. Things will continue to change in your relationship but I think you definitely have it in you both have it in you to turn these changes into positives that strengthen your new marriage.