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Emotional roller coaster.

Things are going well however my wife's emotions seem to be all over the place.

First she has become very sexually aggressive (not complaining) and constantly initiating sex, she is carrying out all and every sexual act with what seems to be enthusiasm (again not complaining) but the other night I woke up to find her crying, when I asked what was wrong she said "I cannot get the photograph of you and Claire outside the cafe out of my mind" I tell her over and over how much I love her, how Claire is just a memory, how much i regret hurting her.

Next morning she is back to happy Julie again.

The reason I posted is last night I said I was

going for a bath, Julie said I will open a bottle of wine and bring a glass up to you, just about to get into the bath and i realise I had left my magazine down stairs, went down to get it and I saw her flicking through my phone (she did not see me) no problem she has and always has had all my codes even for my work phone. I went back upstairs and got into the bath.

Ten or so minutes later she brought in the wine and then got into the bath with me.

She is obviously worried and I don't know how to fully reassure her, any advice please.

This is why I said...

understand that once Julie feels like the immediate threat of losing the relationship has passed, do not be surprised if turns all her attention to the affairs and the fallout.

It's still there and it likely will be for a very long time. That is why I was skeptical for your optimism about the situation. IMO, R does not even begin until the shock/denial stage of grief has run its course. HB is the loss mitigation and preservation phase that occurs before the rebuilding phase, which is what R is.

I'm not going to criticize you for your choice to have a RA. Everyone has to do what he/she sees best. Moreover, it is in the past and there is no use and in rehashing it. But going forward, please consider adopting the policy of not making decisions that have permanent consequences predicated on temporary feelings. Just like toothpaste cannot be put back in the tube, you cannot erase this photo from her mind.

Here is a chance to communicate and show vulnerability for you both. Ask her if she is acting a part. Sooth her fears and tell her she doesn't in order to keep you. I can tell you from experience having your wife go out of her comfort zone in order to win you, leaves guilt for you to eventually deal with. My wife did just that (some kinkier stuff). It wasn't who my wife was at her core, and I knew it. Though I gladly took advantage of her doing things she never would have done. Eventually I realized it was just sex. There was no intimacy in it for her. We have since then stopped and our love making is different. Much more intimate without the acts that she thought she needed to do to please and win me. I had to work through the shame of having my wife please me to win me.

One of the things it's hardest for a BS to wrap their head around is how the WS can feel like they are "less than" and then irrationally make themselves genuinely "less than" by having an affair. The fucked up logic, or lack thereof, boggles the mind. But that's really what I believe happened in your wife's case.

You haven't talked much about Julie's affair, so I can only speculate from the limited "whys" she gave you. You both put a lot of value on surface presentation. I'm not saying that judgmentally; I'm just observing that physical beauty and style are things that you highly value. Claire has that beauty, empirically, and Julie knows you felt very lucky to have had access to it and to Claire's skills as a lover. So take a wife who already felt like she wasn't enough -- that her husband's family was wealthy, his friends athletic, his interest in her conditional (at least in her own mind) on not letting herself go -- so what is she bringing to the table? And then she is stupid enough to have fucked someone meaningless who made her feel desirable, thereby shoving her husband right into OW's waiting arms. How does this woman rebuild her self-esteem?

The answer really has to be IC to explore why she felt worthless in the first place. Her current "whys" as she described them to you are just symptoms of the problem. She had a husband who loved her and a financial platform to launch herself wherever she wanted to go, and where she decided to go was affairing down with a man who made her feel like a catch. There's nothing you could or should have done to identify or fix that brokenness. She has to find it and rebuild herself, or maybe even build herself for the first time. Instead, she's doing the pick-me dance, once again trying to be what someone else wants to gain their approval.

The RA was deeply damaging because it reinforced Julie's essential fear that she isn't enough and can't compete. It's no surprise she's hiding her panic from you. It's going to take a lot of work and reassurance for her to believe she's really what you want now that the RA has proved the danger isn't all in her head. And you have some work to do, too, to convince yourself that Claire is a second rate person whose surface assets don't offset her selfish, opportunistic attitude. You can't convince Julie you value inner beauty until you start absorbing the difference yourself.

This is why rugsweeping doesn't work. Even if you put the affairs behind you, the holes that caused them are still there.

Her current "whys" as she described them to you are just symptoms of the problem. She had a husband who loved her and a financial platform to launch herself wherever she wanted to go, and where she decided to go was affairing down with a man who made her feel like a catch.

Exactly! She chose to be a kept woman. Her character limited her to that. That is on her. She needs to own that choice and not blame it on the road she chose to take advantage of to be that complacent in her life. You didn't hold a gun to head and make her choose to be that way.

And you have to work on yourself to value inner beauty and appreciate it more. Chances are you might well have taken your wife for granted and allowed her to feel like an object instead of a person. You certainly come across that way with her and Claire. It is all about what they can give you and bring to the table. That and your coping issues when slighted. That is for you to own. At some point when your wife hits the anger phase or your relationship becomes complacent, your wife isn't going to be happy with the vengeful side of your character.

Zug, Kept woman! hardly! she worked full time until our first child was born and went back to work as soon as she could, she hardly needed to but as she said at the time "i will not become part of the "ladies who lunch group" which was based around the kids school"

Not really relevant i suppose but she is also a talented painter and has sold several of her compositions at art fairs, self taught as well.

I believe that my not appreciating her contribution as much as i should have was part of her resentment.

BSR following your excellent post i tried to think of ways to reassure Julie of my commitment to her without just repeating my reassurances over and over again so i thought of making long term plans with her.

First i brought up the issue with our summer house in the garden which as seen far better days, leaky roof and all, we discussed renovating or replacing it next summer next I went on line to look at next years holidays in February school half term, Easter and summer, and maybe going away in the new year after next, the point of all this waffle is that I/we are making long term(ish) plans. All good and much enthusiasm from Julie.

Later that evening after the kids are asleep we are both relaxing in the lounge, Julie is doing the Sunday papers crossword and I am reading a book, I get up and kneel down in front of her wanting a hug and I don't know what came over me but I suddenly thought of her leaving me and it was as if a great big pit opened in my gut and I started to cry, it was as if an emotional dam had burst. It ended up with Julie holding me and telling me everything will be ok and she loves me.

I always though i was Mr Strong, Mr Winner, Mr Tough, seems not.

Exactly! She chose to be a kept woman. Her character limited her to that. That is on her. She needs to own that choice and not blame it on the road she chose to take advantage of to be that complacent in her life. You didn't hold a gun to head and make her choose to be that way.

Zugzwang, I’m trying very hard not to overreact to that comment. I certainly hope you didn’t mean it the way it came across. Because if you did, it is not only one of the most offensive things I’ve read on this site, it is also one of the most chauvinistic and misogynistic. According to you any woman who chooses, along with their husband to be a SAHM and raise their children is because she wants to “take advantage,” be “complacent” and her “character limited her to that?”

I applied to 2 of the best art schools in the world. Not just the United States, but the entire world. I was accepted to one (Parsons and was waitlisted at the other (Pratt). I didn’t go for personal reasons, but after I got married at a young age I still could have gone. My husband and I made a choice together for me to stay home with DD1 and then with each of our children. Thankfully, we were financially fortunate to allow us to make that choice. But that’s a character flaw in your eyes??? That’s called being “complacent?”

I am really just floored. Totally and utterly shocked.

Edited to add: Please tell me you meant it differently and that I misinterpreted what you wrote. I truly hope I was wrong in how I read that.

[This message edited by MrsWalloped at 7:12 AM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Sorry, FR, I have to disagree with you. Julie checking his phone isn't sneaky,and it certainly isn't WS behavior.

It's BS behavior. Which Julie is. That she is also a WS,doesn't take away from the fact that she is also a BS. She shouldn't have to ask to see his phone. And,asking kind of defeats the purpose. Asking is demeaning. And asking means he has time to delete anything before he hands it to her.

Buzzy, she is going to check your phone for a long time. It will be years before trust is restored, and even then, it will never be 100%. That's just how it goes.

Every time she checks the phone,and finds nothing, a teeny bit of trust is restored. Right now,she is looking for deception. Eventually, she will be looking to reassure herself that there's nothing to find,which is completely different than looking to find evidence you are lying,or talking to other women.

When we saying takes 3 to 5 years to heal from this, we aren't kidding. Despite how badly you want to fast track this.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:42 AM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Thank you Hellfire, i will now make a point of leaving both my phones, tablet and laptop readily available to her without being to obvious and will not delete any history, she already has the codes to all my devices.

Thank you Hellfire, i will now make a point of leaving both my phones, tablet and laptop readily available to her without being to obvious and will not delete any history, she already has the codes to all my devices.

Buzzy,

I don’t think HellFire was talking specifically about checking phones. She was talking about trust. You shouldn’t be surprised at any similar type of behavior that Julie might show. You both are WS’s but you both are BS’s too. She is scared and worried that you will do this again. You told her it was payback time and you chose her friend to do it with. It is normal for her to be worried you’ll do it again, despite all your reassurances. What if you get into a fight? What if you’re steaming mad at her? I’m not saying you will do it. But it’s normal for her to be scared you will. Because the trust is gone and needs to be rebuilt. Just like your trust in her needs to be rebuilt.

I think her behavior will be over the top accommodating in many areas, like her being adventurous in the bedroom. And speaking from personal experience, I understand the desire to do that.

Mrs W, I just wish i could convince her of my sincerity, she can trust me, I will never hurt her like i have again.

You are right though, a few nights ago we had been having sex and i was done, knackered, Julie wanted more and i jokingly said "mercy" and she replied "no mercy for you get some blue pills i intend to fuck that bitch out of your head" now all this was said with a grin on her face but it shows where her mind is.

I completely agree with MrsWalloped about the “kept woman” concept—how offensive—that is how the overall degradation of old-fashioned values accelerated; by women being made to feel like lazy leeches for actually raising their own children rather than outsourcing childcare so they can chase the almighty fucking dollar.

Mrs. Walloped I never said anything about SAHM. My wife was a SAHM for a long time and certainly not kept. I did mean what I said though. She gave bullshit reasons in another thread I think for cheating on him because she could never do what she wanted to because she was kept and she blamed him for it. Never felt like she had free agency or needed to contribute. I would have to find the list of reasons she gave for cheating on him that he posted.

According to you any woman who chooses, along with their husband to be a SAHM and raise their children is because she wants to “take advantage,” be “complacent” and her “character limited her to that?”

I also never said any woman. I said her. She said so to him. He gave those reasons. I don't have those opinions about women. His wife had that opinion about herself. Hence, her mid-life crisis. You are way off. My wife put herself through school and put her career aside to raise our children. I would never see that as kept. I saw it as self sacrificing and compassionate. I am not sure why you had to even attach yourself to who his wife is. I meant exactly what I wrote for his wife from his wife's bullshit reasons for cheating based on his words. She gave all that as an excuse. From what he wrote about her, that is how she came across from her excuses to cheat. Look through the treads. It isn't my opinions, it were her opinions according to him about herself. It might have been in general.

Zugzwang, It didn’t read that way. Thank you for clarifying.

I’m glad that you were not making sweeping generalizations about women who forgo careers to stay at home and raise families. Thank you.

I can see your point hellfire but I think when it’s a dual cheating scenario, it mucks boundaries up. And bc buzzy is also a BS, it’s ok to agree NOT to sneak each other’s phones. It is my opinion that is wayward behavior. We can agree to disagree. What is really at the heart of the matter is that buzzy and Julie are communicating effectively and healthfully. I have found in my own sneaking through my H’s phone looking for porn or clues he webcamd with others was tedious and frankly, I didn’t like how it made me feel, especially after I had the audacity to sleep with his best friend.

Mrs. W- yes!!!! I can also very much relate to what you wrote. Thank you for sharing.

FR, actually, I will change what I said earlier. LOL. Being sneaky, is Wayward Behavior. You're absolutely right. I just also know, that checking the phone, and being sneaky about it, is normal for a betrayed spouse. So that's where I was coming from. But you were right, and I was wrong. LOL

I don't even begin to understand the ins-and-outs of a Mad Hatter situation. I think it would be incredibly difficult to reconcile in those circumstances. It doesn't exactly follow the typical format when you have one betrayed spouse, and one Wayward spouse. So, of course things would be different,and how you handle those kinds of things,wpuld be different.

I responded to your private message, finally!

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:15 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

My RA hurt her far more than her A hurt me as she had more to lose including her home and a very compertable lifestyle.

Me; why did you do what you did?

Julie; for stupid reasons but because i felt irrelevant and a junior partner.

She said when we got married we walked into this big house, your parents are rich and gave us a six figure check as a wedding present and i felt overwhelmed by it all and then the kids came along and everything was laid out for me, complete new nursery all new stuff but it was all given to me and we never had to struggle for anything and I felt superfluous.

Then later when I wanted to go back to work you could never see the reason for it but I needed to do it for me.

When I got my first wage check I asked to take you out to celebrate I wanted to pay but you insisted to picking up the bill and you could not understand why I was upset.

Then there was the car, I wanted a convertable and I was saving to buy it, I wanted to buy it but you bought me one for my birthday, I resented it, it was something I wanted to do for myself.

I know this sounds so very ungrateful and selfish and it is but i felt like a kept woman.

She then went on to say:

Then there is you Buzzy the runner how many times have the kids and i been at the finish line and gone off to the pub and listened to you and your clubmates talking about split times and other stuff whilst I felt like an intruder.

Looking back i can see I have a lifestyle which most would envy and i have little to complain about but I felt like I was Buzzys wife the kids mum but Julie was being lost. Then someone came along who gave me attention and I embarked on an affair, the whole thing lasted about five weeks, we had sex three times but he was in a panic in case his wife found out and i was wracked with guilt and I just said this has to stop, I would never have told you but you saw that text and the rest is history.

His words. As he says his wife said. Not mine. Not my opinion. Personally as I pointed out, the excuse is bullshit. His wife used the term kept.

Zugzwang,

Your posts, and responses to the questions about them leave me hoping Julie can explore all of this in IC. I can't help but wonder what the deeper "why" is to why she allowed herself to feel like a kept woman. Buzzy clearly feels like she is the opposite, so where is that disconnect between the two of them?

Slight ThreadJack, but Hellfire...I really respect the way you present yourself. With all the emotions of being a BS, you have an awe inspiring ability to respectfully convey your thoughts to us WS's. Your messages are real, heartfelt, pointed, but you deliver them without condescension. Thank you.

Buzzy clearly feels like she is the opposite, so where is that disconnect between the two of them?

I would guess a lack of self confidence. She didn't speak up for herself. My sister went through two marriages like that. Now she just finished nursing school at 40. Dependency issues before she got married? For all we know there might be issues when they were married. We only hear one side of the story. Often times a WS that is trying to win back their spouse doesn't always tell the whole truths about their resentments. Maybe she is like my one friends wife. Just used to being cared for? I have a friend who used to leave work to tuck his wife into bed and did a whole bunch else to be cared for. He acted more like a father than a husband. Crazy IMO but it worked for them. She got the devotion she wanted and he had a wife totally dependent on him. Funny thing my affair was with women like that. Needing KISAs. Who knows. Nothing we can do about that.

This is about Buzzy and his issues that led him to being the type of man to cheat for control and revenge. Slapping a label to justify his romp he clearly enjoyed with her friend and a sexy better in bed woman is just an excuse.

Though as new WS we tend to judge the here and now and ignore the past. He might be judging she is the opposite now. Only seeing that and rewriting who she was and her role in their marriage. How often do new WS judge their feelings for their spouses on how they feel now? Not acknowledging that they did indeed not feel that way when we were cheating or how they felt before they decided to cheat.

Alot of rugsweeping. Buzzy is here as a WS. Yet, all I see is what his wife is doing to win him back and keep the marriage. No posting about what he is doing and changing.

I guess she learned her lesson when he cheated on her with her friend. Wonderful people teach lessons like that. I hope you choose to dig into why you have a character to do that to the mother of your children.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 6:22 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

No posting about what he is doing and changing.

I think he's making some important changes. He quit the running club, stopped using contact with Claire to torment his wife, is opening up to Julie and being vulnerable, told her painful truths he would rather not have had to tell, recognized that revenge didn't solve all his marital problems, and is trying to make gestures to reassure his wife that he's all in. In short, he's thinking about her as the BW he created, not solely as the WW she chose to be, which is what I've pushed him to do since he arrived here in Wayward. I think he's made some good progress in a short time.

But I will agree that I'm not sure either of them recognize even now how much deeper they need to dig. Buzzy can't fix Julie with kind words and thoughtful gestures, and she can't fix either of them by fucking his brains out, though I assume they'll have some fun trying. That solution doesn't get at why she felt the cheap validation of an affair was worth risking everything for in the first place. It rugsweeps Buzzy's romanticized view of his RA and his unanticipated ongoing feelings for his AP.

Again, Buzzy, you don't go outside your marriage -- even in an RA situation -- unless you have some holes in yourself that you're trying to spackle over with outside validation. Switching to "inside" validation from your spouse is less problematic, but it still doesn't fix the underlying issues. Routine takes back over eventually, and the weeds start sprouting up again. You have to dig down and get to those problems at the root.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 7:16 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]