SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Speaking of his speech, if you listen closely on about the 34 minute mark you can here somebody fart.

Speaking of his speech, if you listen closely on about the 34 minute mark you can here somebody fart.

Obviously the only worthwhile part of the whole circus.

Most of the women I have known well in life have been victims of some form of abuse from men, ranging from outright rape (I know a lot of rape victims) to being beaten up or roughed up by a boyfriend to being stalked or harassed by a man who wanted to date them. It is ubiquitous, and it has been my experience that most women do not report these to authorities, and of those who do, many are treated badly by authorities when reporting.

Now, I have a daughter starting college. It terrifies me because the chances are better than not that she will experience some level of bad male behavior by the time she graduates.

As to the booze recommend, my Russian friends years ago hipped me to the best deal in good Vodka. Sobieski, 100% Rye. It's inexpensive, but delicious.

Absurdity. Identity politics. Camps. Intolerance. Zeal. Bullshit. And the list of acrimonious comments goes on.

I suggested that the Menz here read SMS's thread. I happen to agree with some of our members who were rankled that Menz decided to chime in and reply to that thread rather than simply read and learn.

There's a very good reason why MangledHeart has a zero tolerance policy regarding politics. As he put it to me in a very stern warning about two years ago (after I mentioned a politician by name), political discourse (arguments) can rip a forum like this one to shreds. I'm surprised that some of us have gotten away with coming dangerously close to that line. The current political climate is already ripping the nation apart. I certainly hope we can all rise above our differences and remember that we're all friends here, bound by the fact that we are all betrayed husbands.

These women aren't asking for our support, sympathy or empathy. I'm not sure if they're asking us to listen. I do believe, however, that they are asking to be validated and so far that doesn't seem to be happening. Instead, it's camps and accusations, acrimony and hostility (and fart jokes).

Whatever your views on the subject, the fact remains that sexual assault and the consequences (and lack thereof) is a very serious issue in our society and one that men are going to have help solve whether we like it or not.

ETA: Out of curiosity, if some woman had come forward claiming an affair, how would that affect your view of him?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 1:38 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

'Straightedge' music came out of the Maryland-DC prep school milieu of sexism/racism/homophobia during the exact time frame that is in the news. Initially, Straightedge was anti-sexist, anti-racist, anti-homophobic, and IIRC, anti-drug.

Consider that. The behavior of over-entitled prep school boys so disgusted some their peers that they fought the culture musically and won a wide audience.

That's good morals, not identity politics.

(signed) sisoon, doing his best to get this discussion away from the NO POLITICS boundary

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Also, in critically evaluating testimony, affect is an important clue, but the words are even more revealing - words and the way questions were answered. If you search the web, there's a lot of parsing of testimony, and WRT last week's, the punditry based on words seem to draw the same conclusions. The punditry based on emotion is more evenly divided..

Note that the news reporting with actual quotes pretty clearly points to certain (un)truths.

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WRT reaping what you sow, absolutely. I think about things like: ** too close to the line **.

Yes, I fear for our Republic.

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For those who say they abhor 'identity politics,' do you think one or all parties exploit identity?

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:01 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

I just have to ask, Sissoon: Do you listen to punk and/or its straight edge variant?

Instead, it's camps and accusations, acrimony and hostility (and fart jokes).

Which come(s) from one "camp," if you don't follow the line. They're already eating their own.

ETA: Out of curiosity, if some woman had come forward claiming an affair, how would that affect your view of him?

Same as I've been saying all along: Show me some corroboration.

[This message edited by WornDown at 3:21 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

A fart joke camp? If you visit, don't forget to try the s'mores!

NTV (slight t/j) if I was at a fart joke camp the s'mores is probably the LAST thing I would eat!!! As a matter of fact I think I would ONLY eat what I brought!!

JMO YMMV

AS far as this thread goes I have gone as far as I dare. I'm out on this subject anyway. Have a great day!!

NTV, I know you were distressed that flatulence was given short shrift during the past week or so since some naively think “boof-ing” means something else besides engaging in America’s favorite pastime. As I’m sure you are aware, that notion is preposterous. However, there are, unfortunately, those who are uneducated in the true romance language (you only really let the truly momentous ones go in the presence of those you love). Therefore, as a public service announcement, I quote to you from the penultimate authority on the subject, Steve Bryant, and his seminal work “The Art of the Fart.”

It's the fart of course, a word for which the English language has devised many alternatives. You can break wind, parp, let off, blow off, drop one, boof, trump, let one rip. or even emit a trouser cough. The Art of the Fart is a book about a subject that is taboo in polite society, but has a wide appreciation nonetheless.

I presume you have an original, signed copy?

Came here in a depressed funk about WW, stayed for the fart jokes and boofing talk.

Fun fact about boofing, Bear Grylls once boofed seawater on-air to demonstrate that it was safer/cleaner (seriously!) way to ingest dirty water, i.e. from the nasty bottom of a raft when you're adrift at sea.

Most of the women I have known well in life have been victims of some form of abuse from men, ranging from outright rape (I know a lot of rape victims) to being beaten up or roughed up by a boyfriend to being stalked or harassed by a man who wanted to date them. It is ubiquitous, and it has been my experience that most women do not report these to authorities, and of those who do, many are treated badly by authorities when reporting.

I'm sure that's the case for me too. But how many men do you know who fall into that category too? I certainly do; I had my clothes ripped off by a group of women when I was young, and had a lot of sex when I was too drunk to consent in college. Did I consider it assault at the time? No, I did not. But, by the current standard, it clearly was, there's no question.

I guess this is my way of saying, if there are so many victims; if, as you say, most women (and certainly "a lot" of men) will be raped (by the current standard) at some point in their lives, what's going on? Has something changed? Or is "bad sexual behavior" a part of the human condition? I really do not know, but, something is not right, either with our expectations of one another (perhaps we should gender segregate much more significantly again) or our reading of cues from one another.

I really do not know, and as someone said earlier, it makes me really want to just drop off the face of this planet, there's so much horror and pain that we inflict on one another, it's just so depressing and soul destroying. Maybe the problem is just us; it's that we're effectively cave men/women who are walking around with iPhones and Tinder.

My paleo diet farts were more

pressurized now that I think about it.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 6:16 AM, October 5th (Friday)]

But how many men do you know who fall into that category too? I certainly do; I had my clothes ripped off by a group of women when I was young, and had a lot of sex when I was too drunk to consent in college. Did I consider it assault at the time? No, I did not. But, by the current standard, it clearly was, there's no question.

I partied to excess in college. I once woke up in bed with a woman. Both of us were naked and limbs entangled. Open condom pack on the floor. But both of us had been so wasted the night before, neither of us knew whether we had actually had sex. On the one hand, evidence suggested some form of sexual activity: naked bodies, condom packet, etc. On the other, the fact that I was so wasted suggested a decent likelihood Sir Topham Hat did not stand up anywhere close to attention.

What made it worse was that she had a "Big Ben" alarm clock -- recall the wind-up clock with the two bells on top and the spring-loaded hammer that buzzed back and forth between them, ringing them insanely loudly? And she had forgotten to turn it off, leaving it set for 8:00 a.m. In college that is ungodly early. It was probably just a few hours after we went to sleep. My brain, from the hangover headache and that ringing Big Ben. The pain. It was truly criminal.

I can’t post the link, but Google “Dave Chappelle Love Contract”

Funny, but sad too.

I partied to excess in college. I once woke up in bed with a woman. Both of us were naked and limbs entangled. Open condom pack on the floor. But both of us had been so wasted the night before, neither of us knew whether we had actually had sex.

In today's world, you are a rapist. She is a victim.

Google this: 5 Questions About Alcohol and Consent You’re Too Afraid to Ask, Answered

See Point #5.

Or this: Is Drunk Sex Considered Rape? Teen Vogue

Or: Men Against Abuse Now Alcohol and Consent

“What if both people are drunk? Are they both assaulting each other?”

First, if both people are drunk and they have sex and neither feels that they have been violated (feeling violated is not the same as feeling regret or embarrassment), then no crime has been committed. However, if someone does feel violated, then the culpable party is the one who actively engaged in sexual behavior or advanced the situation towards and through penetrative sex.

I have typed this and deleted it 4 times now, because you know it is not easy to talk about. I give advice on facing things to all of you all the time so I guess I am following me own advice.

I think this rare opportunity to have a discussion with other men.

Well in that vein and since you guys already have seen the worst parts of me and still listen to me (once and awhile) I'll share my experience. . .

For background, I am 6'4" 300+ lbs and played division one football. I had a crazy . . .No make that bat shit crazy ex fiancee. She also cheated on me that caused me to call off our engagement. There is a lot more to that story, but I will stick to the relevant parts of that

story.

After our break up she stalked me. I mean she would randomly show up at places she knew I might be at. She would sneak into the house I shared with a few other guys and wait for me . . .in the dark. She would harass any girl I showed interest in. Lied about being pregnant, etc. That is bad enough. However this story gets a lot darker. . . .

A few times she snuck into my house and cuddled up with me in bed after I had fallen asleep. I am a very heavy sleeper. I did drink in excess at times. On more than one occasion I woke up to her having sex with me (all kinds that you can with someone when they are passive).

It is very hard for me to admit this even today, but in hindsight it was rape. The Macho guy in me struggles with that labeling it as that. They are not sexy memories at all. I know to some that sounds kind of hot, but let me tell you in most of those fantasies the woman is attractive to you. My batshit crazy ex was not in any way shape of form attractive to me. Her treatment of me did not endear her to me at all. Not even a little bit. To use a guy's cliche here, I wouldn't touch her with someone else's dick.

When I wanted to talk to a very good friend about it? You know what he did ? He gave me a high five. The questioning if it was even a bad thing drove me crazy. If others did not consider it wrong was it ? I felt so alone. I had nightmares. I had panic attacks. I bought a pad lock for my room and locked it from the inside. That stopped it.

I did have a counselor at the time, but never told them. This does not happen to men. Report it ? Yeah right. The police would have laughed at me. I felt like I had to suffer alone. The shame I felt was terrible. I internalized it and some levels thought I deserved it for sending her mixed signals.

I understand why some people have very strong opinions on this and why others like myself prefer to suffer in silence. Not everyone deals with this in the same way or has the same reaction to it.

I am in no way minimizing what any victim has gone through. Male or female. I think we need to be a lot more honest about this topic IRL, and with each other. These are painful conversations and it definitely sets people off in both directions. However I do think these conversations have value and have been suppressed for a very long time.

First, if both people are drunk and they have sex and neither feels that they have been violated (feeling violated is not the same as feeling regret or embarrassment), then no crime has been committed. However, if someone does feel violated, then the culpable party is the one who actively engaged in sexual behavior or advanced the situation towards and through penetrative sex.

I read that 5 times, and I know you're quoting another source, but that is just totally bats**t crazy talk. How in the he** are you supposed to know if someone is going to "feel violated" the next day. Or 3 weeks later when she sees you taking someone else home? Or 15 years later when you have a high profile job interview? I mean, really? It's rape if the other person, at any point in the future, "feels violated"?

And yes, I use that example because it shows the lunacy of the situation. OK, we're both intoxicated, but, for the thought experiment, lets say I'm blackout drunk and she's just drunk. And we have sex, initiated by her, when I'm well beyond "consent". I'm still the rapist? When my BAC is .25 and hers is .10 and I'm blink drunk? I mean... I know you're right, and I know that's exactly what would happen in a court of law, but, still, that's ridiculous. And, sadly, by this standard, I'm a rapist; many times over in fact. As is just about every every man I know.

Is that really what "metoo" is about? Making every man who's ever had a drunken hookup and then "nexted" the girl into a rapist? If so, I suppose you could say that it's successful, but, in my eyes, there's a huge difference between the crime of "drunk sex" and the crime of stalking someone, assaulting them, physically hurting them, and then forcing penetration. Or drugging someone, waiting for them to pass out and doing the entire thing with the intent of sleeping with them while they are incapacitated.

Numb&Dumb, I have similar stories from my college years. Going to bed alone (drunk) and waking up with someone next to me who just kind of "crawled in" and was initiating some sort of sexual contact. It wasn't uncommon, but, I didn't really mind either; it wasn't that I wouldn't have had sex with these women, I just hadn't consented before the sex started, so, I'm not sure if that would be rape or not, but I had that happen at least a handful of times in college and the years that followed. I think that's a pretty common thing, and I'm sorry it happened and had such a negative effect on you. It wasn't exactly "positive" for me either, but I looked at it as a wake up call that I needed to change my lifestyle and start making better choices.

I partied to excess in college. I once woke up in bed with a woman. Both of us were naked and limbs entangled. Open condom pack on the floor. But both of us had been so wasted the night before, neither of us knew whether we had actually had sex.

In today's world, you are a rapist. She is a victim.

Can you really imagine any judge or jury convicting either party?

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Sure there are false accusations by women, but how many men take the position, 'If you didn't report it to police, it wasn't rape.' How many people think it's OK to lie about minor problems if the major one is unproven - not wrong, just unproven?

Do you think Jameis Winston isn't a rapist because the police so blatantly fucked up the 'investigation'?

In the past week we've heard that 1000s of women have come forward to share experiences of being assaulted without reporting to police. What proportion are lying?

We know for certain that complaints of harassment and assault were lodged against powerful men and ignored - and now we know the reports were true. We know charge after charge against priests were suppressed - and turned out to be true. We know charges against a former **deleted-political** were ignored - and turned out to be true.

I have a lot of sympathy for people who are falsely accused, but I think it's a MUCH smaller problem than ignoring credible charges against people with economic and/or political power, and that's a MUCH smaller problem than a culture which teaches girls to shut up about being violated.

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Consider this:

A man is accused of doing a terrible thing. It's impossible to know if he actually did it, but in the investigation he lied about a lot of little things. He attacked the people who question him. But in the end, you have to give him a pass on the big thing.

Consider a different man under the same circumstances. He denies the big thing, but says that he was not an exemplary guy through such and such a time, but after that time he's done his best to make up for his transgressions, and he can back that up with evidence.

Which of those 2 men would you want to rely on?

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n&d,

That sounds like a horrible experience, or a lot of horrible experiences. Maybe our problem is that we've created a culture in which we're all taught to shut up and let ourselves be violated.

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I wasn't a player in HS or college. Maybe that's because it was before the sexual revolution and pre-Pill. Maybe the girls I liked were simply too smart to risk pregnancy outside of a relationship. Maybe it was because so many girls were victims of CSA, and I just didn't know how to handle that.

I always wanted a full sexual partner, someone who moved with me, and I thought getting over on a girl was the opposite of that.

I missed out on a lot of sex because of my attitude. In college I thought my thinking made me weak. Later I just came to accept that I wanted sex in relationships, even though that cut down on my pre-M opportunities.

Having read this thread, now I think I was right - mindless sex wouldn't have been worth much to me. I definitely made the right choices for me.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:06 PM, October 5th (Friday)]