SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh my. These threads pop up from time to time, several recently, and they disturb me. I'm not sure why. I believe I will ponder that in writing here. Feel free to ignore me because I do not have an answer.

I like to think I am open minded and treat both sexes equally. I'm the BS and I hate the OW. Really hate her, still, after 8 years, so I have no reason to side with WWs.

However, when I read threads where a BS "insists" that his WW must offer sex act equal to or beyond what she did with her AP, I cringe. I clearly don't feel that same cringe when I reverse the sexes. Why is that? It disturbs me that I feel so differently between the two scenarios.

One thought - I endured some sexual "inappropriateness" from my family than I cannot say rose to the level of molesting. No one ever touched me inappropriately as a child. But sex permeated our home. I was sexualized early by language and knowledge. Weird stuff. Porn around the house in the open. I had to start shaving my legs in 4th grade because my mom thought they were too hairy. My father used to grab my arms and shake me to watch my breasts jiggle. My mother started highlighting my hair when I was 15 because it made me look more attractive. She told me to wear tighter clothes at the same age. She always said, "If you've got it, flaunt it." But no one ever touched me inappropriately. So that's my base line and I'm sure it colors things.

Along those lines, I was sexually harassed in middle school by an older student. Very physically harassed and I was terrified of him. I was also sexually harassed in my early 20s by a doctor in a hospital where I worked. So that factors in.

Given my history, the thought of being forced to do a particular sex act with someone I don't want to do it with is really horrifying. Even if the scenario is a WW being "forced" to do something with her BH that she did willingly with her AP. I simply cannot change that horror factor and it feels wrong.

Another thought with respect to the difference in men and women in this scenario - Generally, men have, from the beginning of time, had power over women. Women generally have been powerless. Men have abused that power over women in sexual ways. So that's meaningful to me in pondering all of this. In fact, that seems to ring the most true to me. In most things, I want it to be the same. It's entirely possible that, to me, this is one area where it cannot be the same.

That said, I think if a man wants to D because his wife did things his WW did with OM, one could hardly blame him.

I also felt NTV's way of phrasing it much easier to stomach. Maybe he's right that there is a lot to be said for the phrasing used.

As I said, I have no answer. Just thoughts.

But if what you said is a rule (and it very well may be) what does it mean for R in those cases? Because that's going to mean that many WW's aren't even given the possibility of R because this is such a common element in female A's.

I suppose I'm being too subtle in my position. Having been both a WW and a BW, I believe that with very few exceptions, the kinds of affairs we see on SI mark the death of any hope for a healthy relationship, and dissolution is the best course for everyone involved. I think that, hypothetically, there are the people that get drunk and immediately confess their ONS, then rush out to get professional help and save their marriage. Or the people who only did it because of a medication reaction or a brain tumor, or whatever.

But sustained deception so you can place someone else above your spouse? While they're at home, washing your laundry and taking care of your kids, or at work trying to better things for your family? That's a kind of fundamental contempt and disrespect that can't be fixed, at least not without years of deep (and independent) soul-searching on the part of the WS.

You can limp along in these relationships, even have moments of joy in them, but the trust is broken. The toast is burnt. The proverbial donkey is fucked. The only way I've seen it work (and still only in very, very rare cases) is when the BS says, "Well, N to the fucking NOPE!", kicks the WS to the curb, only to have the WS actually sit in his/her dysfunction, own it, and (again--and this is the important part) independently seek out all possible avenues of becoming a better person and safe partner. Sometimes, they can come back together, even after divorce, and put a new piece of bread in the toaster.

But if you're having to spit out a list of demands, tell your WS what books to read, hand them a damn roadmap to your pain and healing and what they need to do, get coerced sex out of them, they're just conning you. They'll follow your instructions, resent you when it still isn't enough, and when they find a new sympathetic ear, they'll be even better at deceiving you than they were the first time.

Look, RideItOut, I hear the pain in your message, your insistence that your burnt toast is fine with enough jam and butter. Gently, this isn't about the sex, and I think you know that. You don't want to "reclaim" the sex. You want what the OM got -- her to give it up willingly to you. You want her to think that you're special, that you are unique in all the world, and that all of her best, most special moments are saved for you.

That's not a man vs woman thing. I want that, too. I wanted WH to be there with me while I was in labor with my son, fully emotionally engaged, thinking what an amazing woman I was, how lucky he was to have me as the mother of his children. Instead, I got the distracted asshole that sat in the room and sent texts to the OW every time I would get up to walk the hallway to ease the pain. If I stayed with him, and got pregnant again, and told him, "You will leave your phone at home, you will sit next to me, you will walk the hall next to me, you will hold my hand and say encouraging things to me, or I will divorce you," do you think I would really be getting what I want?

I do think that the advice we've talked about on this thread pushes an agenda of toxic masculinity that holds BHs back from healing, instead pushing them to become hardened and calloused to try to prevent from being hurt again. What your WW did to you was horrific. You didn't deserve it. You deserve to be loved, and respected, and treated with dignity. You are enough. You don't have to eat the burnt toast.

Here's a science nugget. The black shit on burnt toast is carcinogenic, no matter how much jam and butter you put on top. I think it's actually a really good metaphor.

I can say, in my relationship, me having a PA with another woman would be less harmful to my wife than her having a PA was to me.

I know this was 2 pages back, but how do you know this, especially when you know people often react to a real A much differently than they expected to when they imagined having to respond to an A?

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A whore takes money for sex. How many WSes do that?

My bet is that it's a rare WW who's a whore.

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A BH is mentally knocked down by their WW's affair.

They want their ego and self esteem restored.

Absolutely - but the BH needs to find his self-esteem in himself.

Expecting the WW to restore the BH's self-esteem is the same as depending on external validation. It simply does not work.

When the BH feels like shit, it's the BH's problem to solve.

And men are no different from women in this. A BW's self esteem gets destroyed by betrayal, too, and that's the BW's problem to solve.

External validation is nice to have, but it does not solve anybody's self esteem deficiency.

"Absolutely - but the BH needs to find his self-esteem in himself.

Expecting the WW to restore the BH's self-esteem is the same as depending on external validation. It simply does not work."

this is so true. and i see advice to be a MH or get whatever the AP did and does that ever make the hurt go away? it never does. and most of the people posting about it did it and still divorced or are still in substandard marriages.

so, what is the point?

most of the people posting about it did it and still divorced or are still in substandard marriages.

so, what is the point?

Well there is no point. Everyone should not try and do anything to R. Everyone should D because the M is ruined and there is no point to continue.

However, everyone acts differently upon discovery and it takes people on different paths to come to their final conclusion based on their understanding of the transgressions.

Why do some people live in substandard marriages? Probably because they have kids or some sort of financial situation that they want to protect. It's not ideal but they usually aren't staying because it's their first choice.

I think that people tend to overthink things....

I think that people here really tend to over think things. I know i have many times lol...

This is my personal thoughts. Although i suspect that a reasonable number of people would agree.

When in a relationship/marriage i want a good and highly active sex life. its important to me, i have a high sex drive etc. I don't want it with other people, i want it with my chosen partner. I don't want a pity fuck, i don't want a "well he helped with this and that and its been awhile, i guess i should give him some." I want my partner to want to have sex with me. I want her do be sexually adventurous in me because she wants to be. Because she is excited about having a sexual relationship with me, just as i am with her...

When "I" am not getting very much sex at all, and if i do it feels like pity sex, then i feel emotionally disconnected. When my WW steps out of the marriage and starts having all kinds of sex outside the marriage, because she wants too....Then i am devasted.

She (or he) has now shown me that she is not interested in having sex with me, but is interested in having sex with someone else. That is a mind fuck that is damn near impossible to get through or around...You are literally being told that your partner is actively choosing a new partner.

If i were to decide that i would be graceful enough to even attempt R, i would want a highly charged sex life. BUT, again, i would not want it out of obligation of pity or any of that crap. I would want her/him to want it just as much as i do with each other.

And i think in that is where the sticky point is...I think that most guys don't want their WW to pity sex them to death. They want their wife to want them just as much as they want their wife, or at least reasonably close to it......

Its not really about wanting all of these sexual things because they did them with OM, it's wanting them because the WW SHOULD want to do them with their husband above all others, not some joe blow off the street.

And if they don't want it. Then in my mind their is a compatibility problem within the marriage.

In my mind, what i hear when a WW has crazy sex all the time with OM, but doesn't want it with husband then she just isn't attracted to husband anymore....She may like her life, she may enjoy financial security, or like her kids situation or whatever for a reason to not leave....but at a root level she just isn't intimately involved with her spouse anymore. Which for alot of us is a mental dealbreaker...and frankly torture mentally...which is why it comes up so often. Which in my mind leads to some of this Alpha mentality....

And women, feel free to flip flop to BW and WH. I feel the same either way.

You want what the OM got -- her to give it up willingly to you. You want her to think that you're special, that you are unique in all the world, and that all of her best, most special moments are saved for you.

That's not a man vs woman thing.

You are absolutely right. And the way that she would have shown me that is sexually. Does that make me wrong, or an ogre? Maybe and probably. But it was/is the answer for me.

Your first paragraph, I agree, not at all a man/woman thing. Where it does become a man/woman thing is that many men seem to want "increased sex" whatever that means (more sex, more kinky, etc) where many women, as you well illustrate, want "more emotional connection". Where it all flies off for me is, I completely agree with you, you deserve and should have been given all that you described in your post, and more, especially if your H's AP got it! 100% agree. But it seems like many disagree when the situation is reversed, the W's AP gets anal sex on demand, the H doesn't have a right to expect it in R. We're talking about the same exact pain here, the same scenario, the same desire, just for different things. Men generally value the sexual acts more, and women generally value the emotional stuff. Why one sex "should absolutely get everything the AP got and more" and the other should not; that's where I strongly disagree.

I want my partner to want to have sex with me. I want her do be sexually adventurous in me because she wants to be. Because she is excited about having a sexual relationship with me, just as i am with her...

Exactly. And, before the A, it's easy for the BS to just say to themselves "well, he/she just isn't that into sex, it's not that important to them, and I can live with that". After the A, the blinders come off, it's not that they aren't into sex, they aren't into sex with YOU. And that's the uphill climb for a WS, it's not about "doing what you did for the AP", it's about going beyond, showing the BS that they are, in fact, your first pick sexually. Because, from experience, I can tell you, that's not at all what it feels like when you've been getting vanilla for years and the AP swoops in and has your wife doing things that she swore she'd never do in the first week. And it happens, again and again. Does it mean the marriage was a sham? That there wasn't attraction there to begin with? Do that many women marry men they aren't attracted to sexually? I have no idea, but I can say, every one of those thoughts ran through my head (and still do, years later).

But it seems like many disagree when the situation is reversed, the W's AP gets anal sex on demand, the H doesn't have a right to expect it in R. We're talking about the same exact pain here, the same scenario, the same desire, just for different things. Men generally value the sexual acts more, and women generally value the emotional stuff.

Why do you think men value the sex more than emotional connection? That runs completely contrary to my experience in both my marriages, and seems to me to paint a very stereotypical, two-dimensional picture of men. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you really just want hot sex, and don't really care how much WW does or doesn't want you, love you, feel emotionally connected to you. I don't know you, so I have to take you at your word.

What I will say is that I have always been sexually adventurous. What I did with my APs in my first marriage was extremely tame, not even in the same league of the kinky stuff XBH and I got up to. It wasn't the physicality that gutted him. It was the betrayal. It was the realization that he wasn't special to me in the way that he thought he was.

WH was never even particularly interested in having lots of varied sex, and his A was more emotional than it was physical. And yet, he was willing to break apart a family and a wife that loved to sex him over it.

Not trying to make this about me, I'm just saying that I find your generalization to be completely off-base. Either all of my experiences have been with highly atypical men, or you need to tweak your assumptions. I truly believe that men crave belonging and love and emotional connection as much as women do, but have been conditioned to push that so far down that they can't even look at it.

And that's where you get compulsory anal sex as some kind of fucked-up proxy for love.

I'll have to come back and read this thread more later. Only got through the first page so far. What strikes me so far, though, is when the "equivalent" examples are used about BWs, it seems like they center around shopping, pretty things, talking a lot, etc - in other words, NOT sexual examples.

What, do folks think that women don't have sex drives?

Tell you what: instead of going on and on about how different women and men are and how we value things differently, just ASK: women, do you have sex drives? Do you value sex? As long as you weren't shamed for it (which I'm guessing many of us are), would you be as vocal about enjoying and valuing sex as the guys are?

My guess is a lot of us do. I wish we'd acknowledge that both genders do. I think that would probably curb a lot of the arguments. See similarities, and you'll relate. Look for differences, and you'll find them. Do we wanna relate, or do we wanna separate?

Look for shaming and silencing as a root to where we do or don't make requests and say what we prefer. What are men shamed for that they remain quiet about? What are women shamed for that they remain quiet about? Once you know that, you'll know where the work is being halted.

^Pardon if that was somewhat nonsensical, my meds haven't kicked in yet.

This again?

The "it's a man's world" comment is so ridiculously absurd and disgusting. Tell that to anyone who ended up with a divorce settlement like I got, after my WW had MULTIPLE affairs and emotionally abused my daughter and I. Sure, it's my world.

Can we maybe just agree that it's possible that there are some differences that fall on gender lines in the way we need to be healed from this type of betrayal? Honestly, it seems to be the female, dare I say anti-sex narrative that drives threads like this. Why is sex so different from every other aspect of reconciliation?

Can you imagine how offensive it might be if I were to start a thread similar to this one, asking why women need the same emotional support or attention that their WHs showed their AP? I can't even count how many times a BW comes here asking for something that the AP got, events, attention, the intimate connection promised only to her. Would a woman be out of line for asking her WH to step up the effort on those fronts in order to facilitate healing?

Stop this men vs women bullshit. All of it. The dividing line here is B and W. If a woman specifically promises that she is mine sexually, then goes outside of the marriage and above and beyond what was given to me, she had better be really motivated to make up the difference, or she can take a walk. Women can and SHOULD feel the same way regarding whatever it was that they had stolen from them in an affair. How is sex any different?

I will be utterly clear, I don't want any woman anywhere ever to do something sexually with me that she isn't comfortable with, but in the shadow of a betrayal like I faced if she isn't willing to make an effort to treat me with the same passion and excitement that she reserved for her affair, she can get out.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 2:17 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

That's not a man vs woman thing. I want that, too. I wanted WH to be there with me while I was in labor with my son, fully emotionally engaged, thinking what an amazing woman I was, how lucky he was to have me as the mother of his children. Instead, I got the distracted asshole that sat in the room and sent texts to the OW every time I would get up to walk the hallway to ease the pain. If I stayed with him, and got pregnant again, and told him, "You will leave your phone at home, you will sit next to me, you will walk the hall next to me, you will hold my hand and say encouraging things to me, or I will divorce you," do you think I would really be getting what I want?

Actually, KarmaGotMe said this better than I did.

The only thing that I would add is, like i said in my post, if the W can't deliver in a meaningful and authentic way, the relationship is over.

Honestly, it seems to be the female, dare I say anti-sex narrative that drives threads like this. Why is sex so different from every other aspect of reconciliation?

It's not. And that's been the point that I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to make. In fact, I think it might be a bit more insidious than that, because, I really do believe if a WH were in this situation, had done things sexually with the AP but refused to do them with his W (and she wanted to), we would all (I know I would) blast him without mercy. We would tell him he's not "all in", that he doesn't love his wife the same way he did his AP, and that he's not "trying" at R. It's only the reversed narrative that seems to get different treatment.

However, when I read threads where a BS "insists" that his WW must offer sex act equal to or beyond what she did with her AP, I cringe. I clearly don't feel that same cringe when I reverse the sexes. Why is that? It disturbs me that I feel so differently between the two scenarios.

I don't know, but I feel the same way, and it's a big part of the problem.

Why do you think men value the sex more than emotional connection? That runs completely contrary to my experience in both my marriages, and seems to me to paint a very stereotypical, two-dimensional picture of men. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you really just want hot sex, and don't really care how much WW does or doesn't want you, love you, feel emotionally connected to you. I don't know you, so I have to take you at your word.

Because, in general, they do. I can post the research, but, just look around and observe; you'll pretty quickly see it's the case. Men pay women for sex. Men consume far more pornography. Men masturbate a lot more than women. All totally "emotionally disconnected" ways to have sex or an orgasm. Yes, there are women who are exceptions, but, in general, what I'm saying is, at least in my mind, true.

Women are whores, men want whores, wayward women are idiots for giving into the men that want whores, you slut owe me a threesome.

No, we don't want whores. We want partners. We want to matter to someone enough to stop them from fucking every guy that throws them a compliment. We want someone to explore ourselves sexually with. We want someone who wants to explore themselves with us. We want that connection to be indestructible. We want someone that makes us laugh. We want someone to share joy and sadness with. We want the person who is willing to go back to back to fight off the bad guys in an old western. We want someone that is dependable, that won't bail at the first sign of trouble. We want someone to share their insecurities with us, and to be there to hear ours. We want someone that never stops coming back. We want someone that doesn't take our efforts for granted. We want someone to tell us when we're wrong, and to help us get it right.

Actually, I don't want to speak for everyone. Just change all of those we's to I's.

If it makes it easier to see me as a one-dimensional cro-magnon sex freak, be my guest.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 3:02 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

However, when I read threads where a BS "insists" that his WW must offer sex act equal to or beyond what she did with her AP, I cringe. I clearly don't feel that same cringe when I reverse the sexes. Why is that? It disturbs me that I feel so differently between the two scenarios.

Change this to BS wants WS to want to do sex acts equal to or beyond what they did with AP because they love BS and desire a great sexual relationship with them.....then i think we are getting closer to what people want....

And yeah, i don't care about the man/woman thing...I generally say bh/ww because that was my experience. But i totally buy into sex mattering plenty for women, and high sex drive women. Actually, i would say that the majority of women, especially once they hit their 30's are pretty high sex drive. Just maybe not with who they are with at the time/ or not finding a guy that rev's their engine yet.

Anything i say on alot of these topics i am going to work on just saying BS and WS.

WW here. I’m going to be very frank, and it may make someone angry, but it may help too.

The advice to give my BH any sex he requests because I cheated disturbs me greatly, and yet I do in fact engage in everything he asks for, I have sex I don’t particularly want and give sexual favors when I don’t want to, because I feel compelled and coerced. It does not make me feel closer to him. It hurts me and it hurts our R.

What my BH doesn’t understand or else doesn’t care about (and I’m willing to bet other men are in the same bought) is that sex is better when BOTH parties are enjoying it and BOTH parties care about their partner being satisfied. And that is the great disservice of this “advice”. Women, in general, require more attention and foreplay to be really into sex. A man that has been betrayed and wants to reclaim his wife via sex acts seems unlikely to be an attentive and sharing sexual partner. Or at least that is what I’ve gathered from my experience. So I submit and we use lube, but he’s not really getting what he wants because it’s hard to be an enthusiastic and active partner when your needs are not a consideration, especially as a woman.

Women, in general, require more attention and foreplay to be really into sex.

Exactly what I thought, and how I acted, until I found out my WW would meet the AP, say Hi, give him a BJ, and then sleep with him in his car over a 1 hr lunch break. How much time for "attention" and "foreplay" is there in a 5 minute "car f**k"?

Seemed entirely happy about it though, so much so that she wanted to D me to keep that 5 minutes of heaven car sex going.

Women don't seem to require much foreplay at all when an AP is in the mix, in fact, "bend over" seems to be about all it takes in a lot of the stories we read here.

Sorry for the frank/graphic nature of this, but; this is exactly what I thought (your post) and how I acted before d-day. Still wound up in a dead bedroom and with a cheating wife. All the "warming up" in the world wouldn't have gotten me as much sex in a month as the AP got in an afternoon.

PFFFT!!!! The difference between me and OM was that I always did foreplay he never did. They had quickies at work, during lunch, shopping center parking lots, local parks whatever. She said there wasn't ever foreplay. It was just pure sex. He would lick her butt, she got wet and then sex. They both were just into the instant gratification.

He couldn't even give her an orgasm half of the time.

My wife loves me now because I take my time and give her multiple orgasms just about everytime before I take care of my needs.

They were just two selfish people and she didn't need any warm up with him. Hell, she didn't even need to use lube for anal sex with him because and I quote "he lubricated naturally".

Hell, she didn't even need to use lube for anal sex with him because and I quote "he lubricated naturally".

I just vomited in my mouth.

<This thread needed some humor>

Ride, my experience is very similar to yours. My ex and her AP would end up together after the workday, but he was always rushed. Not quite in a car but might have been. He pulled out, and basically got in his truck and went home.

To the whore question, my ex is definitely not a whore. Great mother, president of the PTA, etc. She isn’t a whore now. In fact she doesn’t dress to show or go out much. But for those 3 weeks, you bet she was his whore. She would do any act he wanted, and agreed to be humiliated and hence humiliate me. The only thing he didn’t do was leave a 100 bucks on the nightstand

As to the acts, and they did everything, she offered them up but frankly I just wasn’t that interested. The sad part is we both in the end got what her AP had, which was basically sex just to have sex. We spent a lot of time with foreplay and either holding or talking after. Hours. After, it was like what she had with him. 20 minutes to maybe a half hour. It just didn’t feel the same. To give her credit, she tried to bring it back, but for me I couldn’t get them out of my head.

I don’t think it is an agenda. I just think many of us feel it was just so unfair. I know the WS would like nothing better than to snap there fingers and have it all go away, but it doesn’t work like that. It takes work. If part of that is the WS jumping through hoops, so be it.

WWTL,

Sorry man, let's say, I know and feel your pain.

I know the WS would like nothing better than to snap there fingers and have it all go away, but it doesn’t work like that. It takes work. If part of that is the WS jumping through hoops, so be it.

Of COURSE it's jumping through hoops. Be it location tracking on your phone, timelines, going NC, changing jobs, or anal sex. All "hoops" that waywards go through to try to prove they are good/safe partners again. It's just that one hoop we disagree on (not you and I necessarily, but many of us on here).

The sad part is we both in the end got what her AP had, which was basically sex just to have sex.

:( Sorry man. Again, right there with you. Sometimes I feel like a prostitute would be better because at least I'd know I wasn't forcing her to do anything, or she wasn't doing it out of guilt. I know that sounds terrible, but that's how I feel a lot of the time, like I'm having sex with someone who's spending all her mental energy to imagine I'm the AP. Now, she's given me no indication that this is the case, but, it's just in my head and it's how I feel.

My ex and her AP would end up together after the workday, but he was always rushed. Not quite in a car but might have been. He pulled out, and basically got in his truck and went home.

Again, not that it helps, but so typical as to be cliche. Now, the hard question, and the one I will endlessly search for.. Why? Why do women do this? Forget about the A, just why do you decide that one man gets a peck on the cheek after years of being your friend and showing ever indication of being a great guy and the other get anal sex in the car when you KNOW he's a sh*tty person and "cheating" on you with his W? What mental processes lead to that decision? I think this is where a lot of us, or me, really struggle. It doesn't make any sense; the only explanation that fits with my understanding of the world is a simple one "I was more turned on for him than I ever was for you". And if it persists after d-day, it's just another slap in the face. But is this really it? I know I've seen some other reasons (I didn't care what he thought, I was pressured into it, etc), but those, frankly, don't hold up to analysis. You didn't care what he thought but you were willing to throw your M away for him? That doesn't sound like most women. Pressured into it, I might believe that, but, reading here, it's just too common; either most male AP's are borderline rapists or a lot of WW's are willingly offering up anal sex to APs (and we're back at the "why" question).

No answers, just more questions.