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Women, in general, require more attention and foreplay to be really into sex.

Exactly what I thought, and how I acted, until I found out my WW would meet the AP, say Hi, give him a BJ, and then sleep with him in his car over a 1 hr lunch break. How much time for "attention" and "foreplay" is there in a 5 minute "car f**k"?

Foreplay isn't always physical. It can be mental too; sometimes, even more mental than physical. I'm guessing in an A, the illicit high is pretty much foreplay.

So there's a question. What if, as one of the requests for R, the WS initiates and puts a great deal of effort into foreplay? Foreplay is the art of getting both partners into sex before sex happens... it can also be a great deal about self-esteem and intimacy building. IMO it's flirting and courtship as much as it is sexual. After D-Day, the BS is lacking in self-esteem for a reason! So what if part of the restoration of the sexual relationship is asking the WS to take the lead on foreplay, to help the BS feel desirable again - to SHOW the BS that they are and have always been desirable, and that the WS is seeing and valuing the person they almost lost through their selfish choices.

Skins & Ride It Out:

I used the word “generally” and also said “in my experience” because there is always exceptions and differences. Your experience obviously was not like pre-A sex life with BH.

The point I was trying to make that telling a WH to buy his wife expensive jewelry is nowhere in the same ballpark as telling a WW to submit to sex acts that are downright unpleasant/painful/unenjoyable. Sex, even in a marriage after an affair, is more fulfilling when everyone enjoys it.

The money used to obtain that jewelry is often obtained in ways that are "downright unpleasant/painful/unenjoyable". Also, let's not overstate things here, a lot of people find those more "extreme" acts very enjoyable, that's the reason that women are doing them at all, and the reason that they do them with APs. It's not like the request is to go pull a few fingernails out. Can anal sex/BJs/swallowing/etc be unpleasant? Of course. So can going down on a woman. Yes, I think that women have more sex acts that men want that carry more possibility for pain, I do agree with that. But none of this, at least for me, was/is or will EVER be about my W being in pain. It's always been the feeling of intimacy, the trust (I know this can be uncomfortable, but I want you to have it), the respect (this is the most intimate thing I have to offer)..

And I strongly suspect it's the same for most men. Also, not to be too graphic, but those acts that the male APs so commonly push for? They feel really really good to men (physically). That's why they are so common things to go after an AP for.

All a wayward spouse has to do to keep themselves out of such an unfortunate situation (that is, giving the betrayed spouse unwillingly that which they gave the affair partner consensually) is remain faithful. It’s a bit like the prisoner complaining about how bad prison is.

All a wayward spouse has to do to keep themselves out of such an unfortunate situation (that is, giving the betrayed spouse unwillingly that which they gave the affair partner consensually) is remain faithful.

Or get a divorce.

If it is unacceptable, divorce.

It’s a bit like the prisoner complaining about how bad prison is.

No, it's actually much better because marriage is not a hostage situation. People have options. If the BS requests are offensive, please divorce.

We all DO have control. Over ourselves!

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:28 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Ugh I wish I knew how to quote!

If you are comparing sex between spouses that are trying to reconcile, to prison/convicts/punishment, then that's really sad and awful for both spouses regardless of gender, and it says a lot about prevailing attitudes on SI.

On the side of the message box is a quote option. Not sure if it's there if you're typing from a phone... You can also do [ quote ] (without the spaces) to start a quote and [ / quote ] to end.

Why is sex so different from every other aspect of reconciliation?

xhz700, that is the main question, isn't it?

If you are across the #metoo campaign, you will realise that most women have been sexually molested by men sometime or the other in their life. While some men are molested as well, it is usually men molesting other men.

So, at a very deep rooted level, coerced sexual acts feel like rape to women.

Taking people out to dinner, at the worst, can be boring and annoying. It is not abuse. But sex is used as abuse, and so when one is coerced into sexual acts, it feels like abuse.

I am personally against coercing the WS to do anything that they don't willingly want to do on their own. I want a partner, not a subordinate. I have zero desire to engage in power plays. If he takes me out to dinner, emotionally connects with me, has sex with me, I want all of it to come from his inner sense of love. I would never demean myself by asking for these things.

Also, reconciliation means respect. Yes, you can express your pain and hurt, but if you can't treat your partner with respect and can only see them as a piece of meat, then you should not be in that relationship.

The third issue here, and this may upset people, is that sex is not all emotional. Someone may emotionally connect but may not feel sexually attracted. When you say that the WW have the AP a BJ but is not willing to do so with the BH, have you gently and openly asked why? It could be that she is full of shame. Then help her get out of it. It could also be that the AP had a better hygiene, and the BH doesn't, making the idea of a BJ very unpleasant. The same can also apply to WHs who don't want to go down on their BWs.

Getting out of infidelity is addressing the moral question. Providing answers.

Working on the marriage is a different issue and both need to be partners in the equation. I have never wanted my WH to grovel before me. Never will. If I diminish him to a grovelling weakling who puts up with my abuse, would I then want someone like that as my partner?

^ Ephimera, thank you for this! Love everything you brought up.

ETA:

Seeing #metoo, you've gotta wonder if sexual assault/abuse is part of someone's past. It's a question worth asking your spouse, gently, because your spouse, whether WS or BS, needs help healing there too.

There are probably a lot more women sexual predators/abusers than are reported. So it's not just men abusing, just like it's not just women being abused. One thing the movement definitely makes clear, though, is that a HUGE number of women have experienced this (again, this isn't to ignore the male survivors). That can cause shame with sex, or withdrawal, or a whole other host of issues. Not something to be taken lightly, and something to bear in mind with WWs, for the reasons Ephimera mentioned. Not to excuse, but to be aware of.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 8:32 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

I will just keep it simple here- under no circumstance should anyone be forced to do something. Especially given tthat yes, women are subject to sexual harassment far more frequently than men (men value sex a lot and often do deplorable things to get it I’m aware of this), I totally understand why the topic of sex even in a logical sense (this conversation) makes women feel attacked and vulnerable. I’m not even unsympathetic to this.

We could argue until we are blue in the face what it means to a BH When his wife does something with an AP that she refuses BH, and logically, it’s a sore subject for the BH, like coerced sex is a sore subject for women. I’d even argue it’s a form of sexual abuse against a BH, but that’s delving deeper.

The point to be made is it boils down to feeling rejected and losing to the AP, deserted by the WW, and undesirable. And the ONE person who can make the BH fee desirable again, if he stays faithful and doesn’t become an MH, is the same person who refuses to try. That’s the mind fuck.

So my point is, a WW, and the reverse is true, a WH as well, needs to understand they need to want to make their BS happy, and feel wanted again. They should want to do what they need to to make the BS feel safe, sex included. The WS should want to be sexual with the Bs in a way they were with the AP, should the BS desire it. If not, then to karmas point, there is NO reason for the BS to accept leftovers, and second place, and has the right to leave. It also means, the WS cannot sit there and cry foul that the BS refused to try and save the marriage,, or that they did everything they could, because that’s false.

It’s not that BS should want to force anything, it’s that they want to be unequivocally reassured that they are the most special to he WS, and one of the mediums, often for men, is sex, and sex acts. Like it or not it’s a reality. No WS has to do anything, if they really love the BS, they should want to.. otherwise th BS is only reassured that the WS was more attracted to and loyal to the AP. That won’t change without the WS true remorse and desire for the BS, in ALL forms.

But, I understand WHY sex is touchy for women, regardless of how BHs feel about it. I am not a monster, or a predator, nor totally insensitive. Just an average guy trying to have a good life and enjoy love without the pain of infidelity.

And I. Will edit to say, I never coerced my wife to do anything she didn’t want to. She willingly offered everything in desperation to keep me. I only let her know what bothered me, and what I couldn’t accept. She took it on herself to TRY, credit where credit is due. She offered the threesome, she never did anything with AP that she refused me, but made sure to let me know that I would be the one to know her most intimately, and express her deepest sexual desires the most to me. We did things that we’re new for both of us, and she wanted to. In a twisted way, I think she was even turned on by my apathy, SHE pushed most of it. And I have to say, it was the closest thing she could have done to save our M, by understanding where my pain came from.iIt gave me hope. But of course my own issues and anger stood in the way. If I were healthier, older, and wiser, and didn’t go after the OM through his wife, I’d say R would have been possible. So I own my flaws too in all this.

Credit where it’s due, she was remorseful. Had she told me she loved me the most, soulmates, etc etc, but then said, btw what I did with AP, I don’t feel comfortable or want to do with you, I’d have left on dday and never looked back. That was my right as a BS, as hers was to say no and reject me, should she have wanted too

[This message edited by nicenomore at 9:42 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Agenda or advice I don't know.

What I do know is if someone pulled that attitude with me, they'd be gone. Sex on demand is barberic (hence the strap on reference, that's a hard thing to argue).

Women are for use, and it's even worse now. I'm 51, and I realize after a half century married, dating had changed. I was shocked by what was "expected" by men of my own age.

Sure it's your body and you certainly are free to do with it what you will, but I guarantee NO part of your body is getting near mine if it's been everywhere it "could" be. People USED to know just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

I've been implied to that I'm a prude, but I no longer care if anyone here thinks that. Just like they have the right to sleep with/do whatever, I also have the right to not. Equality means equal, however you caluclate what you will do.

I've also learned to just walk away from threads. It's an anonymous forum. Frankly, I am positive these posters who disparage women so badly would NEVER admit in their social circles how they feel because they know most people would be horrified.

just walk away, it saves you time and energy.

ETA:

In fairness, I've been raped more times then I can count and I am a long term CSA survivor. The "average" human being can not comprehend what involuntary sex does to your soul. But that's MY experience.

[This message edited by smokenfire at 8:48 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

I am going to keep saying what I have been saying because healthy, respectful behavior and reactions can get lost in a thread like this.

No spouse's personal pain is solved externally (by having an A).

A now betrayed spouse's personal pain will not be solved externally, by . . .

Getting revenge on the AP

Having a revenge affair

Procuring revenge sex acts with the WS

You cannot solve a personal self-esteem wound through what you do to or get from another person. You merely perpetuate the cycle of pain and abuse (unless the other party in NO way feels in pain or abused).

If you demean an already broken spouse by demanding sexual repayment, expect to now own a more broken spouse than you did before. Lucky you!

If you are beyond humiliated after your WW's affair, get a divorce. Stop using your pain to justify causing others additional pain. If not, you will suffer the further consequences and karma that your actions (reactions) will bring. Negative actions breed negative actions.

It's a very simple concept and can be universally applied. The BS is not immune.

If a spouse is in pain and thinks, "I should cheat," get a divorce instead! There is no justification for cheating.

If a BS is in pain and thinks, "I should lash out at the AP or the WS in a criminal or demeaning way," get a divorce instead. There is no justification for poor behavior.

Hurt people constantly and continually use their hurt as justification for hurting others. And the cycle continues. That's why this site exists.

Why don't you guys go back and read the way NTV worded his "demand for sexual acts". It conveyed the same intent without sounding so rapey. The way he worded it didn't sound like he had his wife chained up in the basement. Trust me, you scare off a lot of BH's with the way you deliver your message. So find a way of saying it without sounding like a caveman and your message will be given more consideration - from men and women.

Oh wow, lots of post and thoughts.

There are male posters seeking advice who I don’t respond to because of the drumbeat (of some posters) of divorce the slut, use the slut, demand from the slut, to she’s a slut divorce her, the slut is thinking of her AP every time she fucks you, you are the sluts plan b, etc.

That was what this thread was started on.

It’s supposed to surviving infidelity, and everything that goes with that shit sandwich. Advice. Hand holding. Experience. What the hell is going on in some threads?

Wanting the same sex a wayward gave to an AP, has merit. I’ve stated such. Threesomes, bulllshit. Not healing a marriage or relationship.

If you need to experience another person sexually after discovering an affair, go. Just please don’t tell me it was “lovingly offered.”

There is no justice in infidelity. If you need justice, well now you’re a cheater. Please don’t shoot rainbows up my ass and tell me she’s a slut and your the poor man just looking to heal.

Advice given like that, seems, to me, agenda driven.

I think my last post here did a pretty good job of Saying the thoughts without being aggressive, maybe I am wrong?

And green- I’ll cede that making the suggestion to have a threesome wasn’t good advice on my part... it’s not fair to do. But I mean the truth is, my exw DID want to do it. She pushed for it, knowing it was a fantasy of mine. She wanted to make me happy.. I’m not sure what that makes it, but it wasn’t coersin on my part. And frankly, unhinged made a good point, the fantasy and the reality are vastly different... but I didn’t hate the experience, and I was appreciative that she went out of her way to make a fantasy happen for me. What would you call it? I told her I was done with the M, didn’t push terms of R even. She took it on herself to try, and for that I was grateful... I’m not sure where this falls, but I don’t think coersion counts?

And the slut shaming? I despise it. I think single women are shamed for having free sexuality and it’s wrong. What a single woman does and with how many people, or who is none of my business or judgement. The only time that word has any significance to me is the case of adultery, and frankly, men are just as deserving of the critisism, and the word, when cheating. I’m sure I could be called a slit when I became an MH, and I deserve it. But when my wife cheated, she became that word to me, and I hated seeing her like that. It killed me. I tried to not, but it is what it is. I wish she was still special to me. I wish she wasn’t an object to someone else, than She hadn’t cheapened herself, but I couldn’t feel otherwise. I felt that word applied to her at the time. I didn’t want to. I’ve never judged any single women for sleeping around, I have not right to.

And I know I am cheater. I was also the betrayed. I know my role as both I promise you. I am not escaping my wrong doings in the least. But i am not sure thebthreesome was the adultery. What two partners decide to do together isn’t adultery? Sleeping with the OMs wife was in my mind, what made me realize I had done wrong... just my 2cents

[This message edited by nicenomore at 9:58 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Well, that was a lot of typing NNM...NTV said it more clearly and simply:

I know I made sexual requests as part of what I wanted with r.

Try asking a WW, what are you doing for your WH to help him heal. Then wait for an answer before suggesting anal sex. Let her list her efforts and then if she doesn't mention the bedroom, tell her how a BH feels after learning their wife slept with another man. Then ask the WW - had your husband made any requests regarding sex as part of R?

Just ease into it and I don't think there's need to outline the specific acts. Adults know what they did with one partner that they aren't doing with another. There's no need to list every category on a porn site.

There's my constructive criticism. Be gentler. Less crude. We have a fair number of sex addicts in our membership who struggle to maintain their sobriety. There's no need to sound like penthouse forum...maybe try delivering your message the way you would to your daughter if she went down the wayward path - or your grandmother...

NNM,

I hope we get on a better footing.

You’re stuck on the threesomes, my post addressed more than that.

Couples, polys, marrieds can do whatever they want in their bedroom. No worries.

I have a great MMF threesome fantasy. Does not include my husband. I couldn’t imagine asking him to watch me fuck another man.

So, yeah fantasy, granted it’s not unusual. Pretty standard fantasy.

After betrayal: I don’t care if your wayward beings the 23 year old babysitter to you on a silver platter. Now you’re a cheater, too.

My opinion.

But threesome were not just what I started this thread about.

That’s fair- sassy- the topic of specific sex acts are often used as examples, because they are common, but the wisdom applies to anything really inside or outside the sexual realm, that was given by a WS to an AP bit refused a BS. That might be neater.

I think part of the reason it comes across from many BS as frustrated or vulgar is that it seems so common sense to the BS, when as you mentioned, maybe the WS really has no idea what it means, and needs to be coached into understanding as opposed to smacked into it, which can feel hostile. I get that.

And the message is that if you want to try R, you must understand the significance these things hold for a BS, and want to do them fornthe BS out of Love and attraction. If you don’t, it’s certainly your right as a few autonomous human, but understand also what that means as far as impact on the bs and their desire to R.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:14 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Green-i do too, which is why I am trying to learn as well, despite my advice and thoughts.

I guess you and I halfway see eye to eye, and I do want to get off the threesome track here. But maybe you can help me understand, if a couple in a marriage can do whatever they please openly and honestly prior to infidelity (the deceit in these cases I imagine, if they are already poly), what makes the BS automatically a cheater after the WS cheated, if the WS indulges a BS fantasy in the M? If it’s mutually desired, honest and not forced? Are you saying you beleive that the second anyone in an M cheats, anything, after that, done by the BS is cheating too? Like what would have been ok prior to infidelity, is now not ok because of what the WS did? I’m not defending myself beleive me. I know what I am for other reasons. But I am just trying to get perspective here

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:11 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

And remember too, the suggestion could nuke R for the WW. We have more than one BH who would have bristled at his WW suddenly offering all the "naughtiest" sex acts she became a pro at while doing it with OM. I'm sure it would've driven a few to divorce. But a fresh WW desperate to save her marriage won't understand the nuances of her BH's needs. Some BS's won't go near their WS in bed for months. To have their WW turn into a porn actress could be a huge mind fuck...