SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Please talk to me about this.

There is a huge part of me that thinks this doesn't deserve forgiveness. Divorce is accepted biblically in terms of adultery; so forgiveness isn't excepted of me. I am not a biblical scholar.

Our sermon this weekend was about forgiveness. I felt angry listening to it. "How unfair it is that the burden of forgiveness is on my heart and soul because of their sin".

My husband has done every possible thing to become better. The truth is he was a horrible husband before the affair and the affair was just his selfishness manifested.

The affair brought him to his knees. He feels the only way out of the wreckage is to change so much of himself in our marriage.

We have a better partnership. A better friendship, a better sex life. Our marriage is truly better.

The part that stinks...is me. Will this hole close up if I offer forgiveness?

If I forgive, will I be "weak". Will I be giving an opportunity to hurt me again? I feel like offering forgiveness exposes me.

And then of course how do I forgive his AP? It's easier to think about forgiving my spouse because the changes are tangiable. I believe she should apologize to me.

This is a huge struggle for me. I do believe I need to recognize it is holding my healing back.

To me the very first rule for someone who is betrayed -- we don't HAVE to do anything.

We figure out what we truly want and need and pick our path forward. Anything else, such as forgiveness or reconciliation or acceptance are all options, but nothing you MUST do to survive and thrive.

I chose the forgiveness option. Then a bit after that, I chose the reconciliation option.

Forgivness to me wasn't weak, it was the strongest move I ever made. I did it to make sure none of the infidelity was ever going to have a hold on me in any way -- that my wife knew, D or R, I wouldn't resent her for the rest of our existence. This step took the power of all the horror show away. It allowed my anger to focus on the sin and not the sinner.

Healing from the pain of it all is a different story, that will take a while.

Part of me forgiving was absolutely the way I raised and the strong influence of my faith. And part of it is who I am anyway. Lastly, I do think it has helped us build the relationship we always wanted. To improve 'us' and give us a complete reset, forgiveness allowed me to give her that fresh start, to prove she is not the sum of her very moments and choices.

Forgiveness was simply my starting line if the relationship was going to have any chance to make it. It has also allowed the past be the past and to get some distance in the rear view mirror.

I expect the emotional scars will still take more time to heal, but they are healing.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 10:10 AM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

Church sermons can be rough! Two weeks in a row I felt like our pastor was speaking directly to me during the sermon.

We've had a lot of conversations about forgiveness. I have forgiven my WH completely. Yes, it requires a fair amount of trust and yes, that is hard to give after what has happened. But, my WH's actions showed change and commitment and we committed to R. In order for R to work I had to offer the gift of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not always easy. There are times when memories of the A will rear their ugly heads. But, even when I'm upset about these times I have to remember that I chose to forgive. Forgiving does not mean forgetting unfortunately. We'll always need to be intentional about R and I will always need to be intentional about forgiveness.

Don't have a lot of time to write at the moment, so I will be succinct.

Forgiveness is not weakness, but strength. Do you believe that God is weak because He has forgiven you? The same applies to you, IWMG.

Forgiveness is really about releasing you from the burden of extracting justice for the way you have been wronged. It doesn't let your husband off the hook, it simply means that you are giving up the right to pursue justice on your own terms.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 10:27 AM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

I haven't forgiven yet - at all. I haven't even decided if reconciliation is for me! But, I wanted to see if forgiveness could ever even be an option for me someday so I did a lot of reading on it. I am not a forgiving person and I despise cheating and cheaters, so this has been really hard for me to accept. Anyway, I really recommend, The Book of Forgiving by Desmond Tutu. It gives you a path towards forgiveness. It was a really good read. I'm pretty sure I am going to reconcile and once I make that my decision, I plan on rereading that book and following the steps.

I don't think you need forgiveness to reconcile, but I think it will help. I know for me I want and need to find peace and true forgiveness can help me find that.

I hope you give the book a chance, it is really enlightening. I was so against ever being able to forgive before I read it.

Old wounds, I was hoping you would respond. Do you believe not forgiving fosters resentment. I can see this going hand in hand. I am also exploring this notion that popped into my head this morning. "Does not forgiving, force me to dishonor the portion of my wedding vows calling to honor my spouse?"

Needing closure. I have not preceieved forgiveness as being intentional. So as thoughts of the affair intrude, you mental check them and say...I am intentionally forgiving. I like this concept. It makes me feel more control over forgiving.

Captain Rodgers, bingo. You are correct. I do not feel I have justice. Not forgiving is a way for me to extract justice.

This sucks--I will look into this book. Thank you for the recommendation. I do need to understand all the components of forgiveness.

I also recommend Desmond Tutu's Book of Forgiving. I never did the exercises, so I'm going to reread it soon and be sure to do those.

I think it boils to empathy. If you view adultery as so despicable it could never be forgiven, then you will struggle with this. If you take time to imagine a scenario in which you could have an affair and how it would feel, or if you can imagine what it might have been like for your husband or the OW, it seems more human and less devilish, I believe. Instead of the knee-jerk, "But how could you!" just try to imagine how they could.

It helps to ask if you are making moral judgments emotionally or rationally. There are some people who divide the world into cheaters and non-cheaters and who cling to their superiority as non-cheaters. And there are some who say that infidelity is so wrong and traumatic and abusive to the BS, that however the BS reacts is OK, even if it involves a RA. Are you clinging to the idea that you don't have to forgive because you get something emotionally out of it, and then you come up with the rationale after the fact?

Things I have gotten emotionally out of clinging to non-forgiveness are feeling superior to my husband and the OW, knowing that he has a debt to repay that I can hold over him, assuming the role of victim so that I get sympathy, feeding my Wonder-Woman kick-ass I am the heroine avenging some terrible injustice instincts, and I am sure many others as well.

But is it fair to expect a spouse to live in perpetual penance for something that is now part of the past? I don't think so. That's not how I would want to be treated. And I don't believe I am magically immune from cheating, and certainly not from sometimes making bad choices that hurt others. Do my ideal relationships involve one person forever groveling and the other forever condescending to remain with the groveler?

And as for the AP, I think intellectual honesty requires me to seek empathy for her as well. I can't view my husband as a human who is worthy of redemption and view her as a one-dimensional demon who will never do anything good in her life. I think whether you forgive the AP is personal. Some BS never really internalize the AP's actions as a personal affront, so they probably don't need to do that emotional work. But if you have carried anger and a desire to assert yourself over the AP like I have, then I think working through those feelings on a path to forgiveness is worthwhile.

Forgiveness is really tough because it feels like letting go completely of the pain. And I don't think that's humanly possible. I lost my dad to suicide 10 years ago and today I feel especially sad about it. I am sure that 10, 20, 30 years down the road, the affair will still hurt me sometimes. But I view forgiveness as something I consciously and intentionally choose every day. That doesn't mean I feel hunky dory about my husband's terrible choices and the OW's unwanted role in my life. But I choose not to be shackled by it, at least for today. I choose to see their humanity.

I'm sure you know this, but forgiveness is great for the other people and all, but it's really a gift to yourself. The anger and resentment and fear of being vulnerable and desire for revenge are heavy rocks that you drag around with you. And they don't protect you from being hurt in the future anyway. When you lay that burden down, you walk forward so much lighter, so much more able to love and be loved.

I'm in the same boat and will read the same book!

Do you believe not forgiving fosters resentment. I can see this going hand in hand.

For me it does. Not forgiving someone in my world is like telling my wife that she is irredeemable and broken beyond all repair.

I don't see her that way.

No punishment will ever get me justice for her wrongs, and resentment will never allow me to build the marriage I want.

She did inflict the greatest emotional pain possible, and understands that. Now she is doing all she can to show me why she is worthy of a new start and my forgiveness.

Does not forgiving, force me to dishonor the portion of my wedding vows calling to honor my spouse?

A fair question, and certainly not my place to judge your decision. That call is way above my pay grade.

I can say for me personally, it is part of the recovery journey to get back to a place where I can properly honor her. Forgiveness is one thing, trying to be anger free and pain free are another matter, and I'm allowing myself time to get there.

I had a tough time with this as well but thought deeply about it and read some different things on the subject and realized that I would not be weak in forgiving. Forgiving takes strength, takes courage, takes conviction, takes integrity.

Forgiving is not saying what you did was ok, but saying I refuse to let what happened run my world anymore. In a sense to me it was letting go of the past that I could not change and allowing myself to be more present. It was saying what WW did was in the past and it was not going to control my present or my future. just like the breakfast I had yesterday. I may have wanted pancakes after but the cereal I had was what I had and I can't change it.

The day I told WW Iforgave her was a nerve racking moment but after the fact it was like this weight was lifted off of me. I began to think about the present more and what I wanted my future to truly look like. In a sense forgiving her set me free to move forward.

Now the focus is on today and what I want moving on. It's no longer about the past. There is nothing I can do to change that. There is nothing WW can do to change that. If I continue to hold that against her I don't think we ever have a chance. I could hold it against her forever but to me it serves no purpose. I have to be hear and now. Not 6 months ago, not a year ago, not 10 years ago. Forgiveness has allowed me to do that.

Ah... forgivness shmivness!

What is this weight we put upon selves to forgive? Some things in this world are just truly unforgiveable. But... you know what... I think that's perfectly okay.

I read a lot about people saying that forgiveness is something you do for yourself. I sort of get that. I can't see any reason, at this point, to continue to hold my wife's infidelity over her head and use it for whatever ends. I can't change the past and I can't change her.

What I do believe, however, is that it's relatively easy--relatively speaking--to forgive someone for being human. We're all flawed creatures, to some degree or other.

I also think that forgiveness is an act, not some sort of 'thing' we give ourselves or those who transgress against us. If you're religious, Christian, forgiveness is divine. I'm not religious, but I get the idea.

I think offering our WS the opportunity to reconcile is an act of forgiveness. I think allowing ourselves to feel empathy for them is an act of forgiveness (or maybe just curiosity). I think reaching a point of acceptance and finding within ourselves a degree of peace is an act of forgiveness.

Letting go... is an act of forgiveness.

Forgiveness to me is a bit of a process, I guess, one with many stages and opportunities to find whatever it is that we need to keep on keeping on.

The point is, don't put too much pressure on yourself to reach some glorious epiphany when you say: "By George! I think I've finally forgiven the bastard!"

ETA: Janis Spring's book on forgiveness is just as awesome as "After the Affair."

[This message edited by Unhinged at 2:49 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

Forgiveness.

I don't believe we are duty bound to forgive. I suppose it's nice if you can, but when one thinks of what true forgiveness means (in short, never remembering it and it is 100% forgotten from our minds) it's nearly impossible.

My XWW asked about it and I told that while I have no forgiveness for her, that wasn't important for her to move forward. I suggested she forgive herself (not justify, but forgive) and then seeks God's forgiveness and she would be fine.

I am not ready to even work on forgiveness - my IC told me she felt like it was holding me back and I needed to work on it but I told her I wasn't ready.

I will say this - I am a Christian and I struggle with wondering if my WH's affair are causing me to sin by not forgiving him. But I do think its okay to be working towards forgiveness but not there yet. Thats different than living with unforgiveness.

I also think that biblical forgiveness is different than what we culturally think of as forgiveness. When Jesus spoke about forgiving sins the greek word they use for forgiveness is the same as when they talk about forgiving a debt. Like if someone owes you money and you forgive the debt then basically you are even and they don't owe you anything. When someone wrongs you they have taken something from you and you are paying for it. Not with money in our situation but with emotion and pain. As a BS you are paying for your WS's affair and their sin. When you forgive them its like saying "its okay. I'm fine with paying this on my own. You don't owe me anything" I don't think thats the same as saying it didn't happen or that you won't feel sad anymore. Its saying that you won't try to make it even by causing them pain or throwing it in their face. I don't know - I think that seems different than what we culturally think of as forgiveness.

I have never thrown my WHs affair in his face. I have never tried to be revengeful or make him hurt just because he hurt me. So biblically I think I have forgiven him. But I am walking around with hurt and resentment which isn't forgiveness. I don't know...

I also think the main thing is that you cannot shoulder this. Its impossible for you to pay this debt. Its impossible for anyone to pay for it. Thats when Jesus comes in (not to get all preachy, but since you brought it up) - you take the debt and then you hand it straight over to Jesus. You don't need to carry it.

I feel like I don't really know how to do that, but its something that I pray for all of time.

And then of course how do I forgive his AP? It's easier to think about forgiving my spouse because the changes are tangiable. I believe she should apologize to me.

This is a huge struggle for me. I do believe I need to recognize it is holding my healing back.

IWMG,

In a lot of ways I try to look at what God does and model his behavior.

For betrayal, he threw about a third of the angels out of heaven. It was their choice to defy and betray and they didn't want to reconcile.

God asks us to confess our sins and have a contrite heart in order to gain forgiveness.

God can forgive in an instant. Me, I'm just a mere human, and a pretty imperfect one I may add, so it takes me a whole lot longer.

But do we owe forgiveness to those that meant what they did and still continue on with their seduction of married women? I don't think so! God wouldn't forgive them because they have not confessed and do not have contrite heart. My wife's OM pretty much laughed in my face and told me that my children would get over it as he tried to get my wife to divorce me.

So why should I extend forgiveness when not even God would do so? Why should I feel compelled to be a doormat? I do not!

Now I choose to try to forgive my WW, who, in my opinion has some pretty shallow contrition. But she is working on it and says she still needs more time to work some more. She's fully confessed to me, the church, and my family.

That is something I can work with.

The preacher is sending out a message to forgive or to work at forgiving. That is a good message in general. He or she is not saying, I believe, that you do something that God would not, IMO.

Here's the thing about justice & infidelity. As the betrayed, there is never enough justice available. What do we want as a just punishment? There is no checklist. Nothing that says you did "x", so the proper pennance is "y". There is no restitution that will ever fulfill what was taken away from us.

So, carrying the burden of trying to exact that proper amount, trying to determine just how much longer the wayward "needs" to suffer. Not forgiving places the burden of judge, jury and executioner squarely on the betrayed.

In short, forgiveness isn't about letting the WS get away with anything. Whether you are a believer in karma or in God or whatever, you are giving up the role of carrying out the "necessary" punishment. You are handing that burden over to someone or something (depending on the belief system) else.

Ultimately, you are freeing your time and energy to be used on more productive things, namely your own healing.

Do I think that not forgiving can lead to building resentment and can hinder R? Absolutely. Because carrying the role of the executioner definitely keeps some sort of wall between spouses & doesn't allow for full healing to take place. The only way to truly get through is to tear down whatever obstacles still exist. Then, you can have that clearer (but never easy) path towards R.

I'm so happy you have a better relationship, friendship, sex life, and marriage. :) That's wonderful!! Forgiveness is hard stuff!! When it came to forgiving my husband it helped me to know forgiveness was not letting him off the hook. We can and should still hold others accountable for their actions or lack of actions. Forgiveness is returning to God the right to take care of justice. By refusing to transfer the right to exact punishment or revenge, we are telling God we don't trust him to take care of matters. Forgiveness is not letting the offense recur again and again. We don't have to tolerate, nor should we keep ourselves open to, lack of respect or any form of abuse. Forgiveness does not mean we have to revert to being the victim. Forgiving is not saying, "What you did was okay, so go ahead and walk all over me." Nor is it playing the martyr, enjoying the performance of forgiving people because it perpetuates our victim role. Forgiveness is not the same as reconciling. We can forgive someone even if we never can get along with him again. Forgiveness is a process, not an event. It might take some time to work through our emotional problems before we can truly forgive. As soon as we can, we should decide to forgive, but it probably is not going to happen right after a tragic divorce and that's okay. We have to forgive every time. If we find ourselves constantly forgiving, though, we might need to take a look at the dance we are doing with the other person that sets us up to be continually hurt, attacked, or abused. Forgetting does not mean denying reality or ignoring repeated offenses. Some people are obnoxious, mean-spirited, apathetic, or unreliable. They never will change. We need to change the way we respond to them and quit expecting them to be different. Forgiveness is not based on others' actions but on our attitude. People will continue to hurt us through life. We either can look outward at them or stay stuck and angry, or we can begin to keep our minds on our loving relationship with God, knowing and trusting in what is good. :) If they don't repent, we still have to forgive. Even if they never ask, we need to forgive. We should memorize and repeat over and over: Forgiveness is about our attitude, not their action. We don't always have to tell them we have forgiven them. Self-righteously announcing our gracious forgiveness to someone who has not asked to be forgiven may be a manipulation to make them feel guilty. It also is a form of pride. Withholding forgiveness is a refusal to let go of perceived power. We can feel powerful when the offender is in need of forgiveness and only we can give it. We may fear going back to being powerless if we forgive. We might have to forgive more than the divorce. Post-divorce problems related to money, the kids, and schedules might result in the need to forgive again and to seek forgiveness ourselves. We might forgive too quickly to avoid pain or to manipulate the situation. Forgiveness releases pain and frees us from focusing on the other person. Too often when we're in the midst of the turmoil after a divorce, we desperately look for a quick fix to make it all go away. Some women want to "hurry up" and forgive so the pain will end, or so they can get along with the other person. We have to be careful not to simply cover our wounds and retard the healing process. We might be pressured into false forgiveness before we are ready. When we feel obligated or we forgive just so others will still like us, accept us, or not think badly of us, it's not true forgiveness — it's a performance to avoid rejection. Give yourself permission to do it right. Maybe all you can offer today is, "I want to forgive you, but right now I'm struggling emotionally. I promise I will work on it."Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It's normal for memories to be triggered in the future. When thoughts of past hurts occur, it's what we do with them that counts. When we find ourselves focusing on a past offense, we can learn to say, "Thank you, God, for this reminder of how important forgiveness is."Forgiveness starts with a mental decision.The emotional part of forgiveness is finally being able to let go of the resentment. Emotional healing may or may not follow quickly after we forgive. Trust can be rebuilt but like anything worth having it takes time. Hang in there my friend!! I'm glad your husband is working on himself for the sake of your marriage and I commend you for sticking by him and trying to save your marriage too. <3

So I just forgave my WH the other day. We're 5 mos out. I just felt like I knew he was deeply sorry and ashamed, and that he will be spending his life working for me and us. Forgiving him does not mean I'm ok with what happened--I'm not. It also doesn't mean that I trust him, or that I'm not still angry and hurt, or that I am ready for sex, or ready to move on.

For me it means that I know he is remorseful and that I can see him working and changing, and I know he'd go back and undo it if he could. It means that under the tears and the doubt, the pain, hurt, and anger, I understand that he is sorry and I do want our marriage.

I don't think this makes me weak. I think this was a hard thing to do, and I think it would be easier to not forgive and stay in that place. I get the piece about wanting justice. But, for me, I don't think there will ever be any thing that will give me that. What he did was disgusting, selfish, and shameful. I'm not sure what I would need that would make me feel like I got justice. It's impossible. To me.

Do you believe not forgiving fosters resentment.

I think not expressing feelings fosters resentment.

I think recovery requires forgiving one's self, but you don't seem to be asking about that.

I view forgiveness of infidelity as giving up all desire for your WS to be punished.

IMO, forgiveness requires a lot of action by the WS that slowly elicits forgiveness from the BS. You can - pretty much have to - (re)build your M while the WS is earning forgiveness, but forgiveness is not necessarily required for R. After all, there's no way to restore to the BS what the WS gave away during the A.

Forgiveness snuck up on me, after 3.5-4 years of totally consistent work towards R by my W.

I think your energy is better directed toward building the M you both want. If you do that, revenge and punishment will pretty much disappear on their own, I think.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:16 PM, September 22nd (Friday)]

Just swinging through to add another vote for The Book of Forgiving. It is a lovely piece of writing and an excellent tool for those who wish to pursue forgiveness.

I just have to say that this thread is amazing. This is something I have been struggling with, and the words of wisdom from others here have helped a lot.