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Topic is Sleeping.

The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 11:19 PM on Wednesday, October 19th, 2022

Is he avoiding counseling and addressing his issues? I wonder as he seems resigned to his position that he is who he is and not much will change and the BS doesn’t deserve this.

Whatever. In a sinking ship, you must save yourself.

If he’s going with this "sob story", just remember you need to come first. Always.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 12993   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8760306

Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 1:17 AM on Thursday, October 20th, 2022

I have not read replies so this might be said before.

I believe he is miserable. He is stuck with adult responsibilities and wants to be a kid with none. He has two sick children. So do you. He has people expecting him to be a grown up. So do you.

Unless he buckles down and puts his family first he is going to revert right back.

My thinking is you need to let him do his work on himself. Every one here has had to make tough decisions about how to keep going. Stop being his mother. If he can’t get a handle on things don’t let it drag you down. Little Sweeties are depending on you.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 3716   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8760320

Aletheia ( member #79172) posted at 3:22 AM on Thursday, October 20th, 2022

The positive: He’s being honest

The negative: His honesty really highlights how incredibly selfish he is and how he uses self degradation to manipulate sympathy and likes to feel sorry for himself. Look at how it’s all about him, the number of times he uses the word "I" He doesn’t talk about you at all except to say what he loves about you is all it is you do for him and he’s sorry for jeopardizing that

posts: 296   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2021
id 8760331

pureheartkit ( member #62345) posted at 3:21 PM on Tuesday, October 25th, 2022

Keep saying to him that you know he can do better. Don't allow any poor me talk. Tell him he's got it within himself to get things together. You won't be his safety net. He's got to do it. It's like a muscle that need building. Time to put in the effort to be a stronger, smarter person. He's got to help you more.

Meanwhile you decide what you want from life. Go and get it!

Thank you everyone for your wisdom and healing.

posts: 2534   ·   registered: Jan. 19th, 2018
id 8762034

 Twinmom878 (original poster new member #81150) posted at 8:38 PM on Wednesday, November 16th, 2022

So I did individual therapy today and the couples after that with his therapist guy. It went terrible. Completely terrible. Well in the individual therapy I talked about my childhood and his childhood. How in his childhood he didn’t have a male figure in his life that he could rely on and he doesn’t have a basis or foundation to model commitment because his mom had two other marriages and he didn’t rely on those male figures or bond but resented the poor one and thought he wasn’t good enough for the wealthy one. And I am basically a minority for somehow surviving my dysfunctional family and being a high functioning citizen of society. I had my parents (my dad more so) as a model of commitment I suppose. So it went okay in my individual therapy session and opened my mind I guess into understanding that he lacked that example of commitment from early childhood and modeling that as an adult is hopefully not impossible with therapy.
So then we went to the couples session. And I already feel like this guy therapist sort of sides with him. Like he "gets him". When I try to talk he likes to pause me mid conversation and tell me to take a breath and asks me what emotion I’m feeling and where at on my body I feel that. And then he wants me to look at him and see how what I’m saying is shutting my partner down and to see how it’s affecting him. Like if I talk about how I’m hurting and how he doesn’t discuss the affair and wants me to just move on and that I’m hurting and heartbroken and trying to move forward but I’m scared he will do it again. And the therapist will ask me if he told me or gave me any answers it wouldn’t help and I can’t obsess over the details. I say I’m not even obsessing over the details just hurting and don’t understand how he could have done this and trying to process the pain of him cheating on me for two years and trying to understand how he could have been that deceitful and dishonest and not value me or respect me. I’m afraid I don’t know him.
And the therapist told me that if I keep talking about it to him or needing to talk about the affair it’s going to push him away and he will leave and I said well he should be afraid of me leaving not getting to talk about it. I did nothing wrong. I didn’t cheat and I’m heartbroken and can’t help feeling pain. And my partner got up and walked out of the room. And the therapist was like see if I keep talking about the affair or how he cheated and lacked guilt and doesn’t really show remorse but has me go to therapy to fix what he did instead of really being open about it and all he is going to leave. Like it’s so unfair!
So I got up without saying bye and left therapist office. Like I don’t feel like I have to talk about it like all the time. I don’t. I have once a week past two weeks but whenever I do he gets defensive and angry and says he hurt me and he already is hurting and he’s not my punching bag and he’s already answered these questions and he’s done. He’s not going to keep doing this. And I get no sympathy from him in that moment and he leaves and does silent treatment to me. And I feel no power at all. I feel like I have to just move on and accept there will never be a resolution to this and it hurts still.

posts: 8   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2022   ·   location: Kentucky
id 8765457

ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 9:41 PM on Wednesday, November 16th, 2022

So, he's not really sorry. All the bullshit from a few weeks ago where he'd do anything and all he wants in the world is to make this up to you and get you to marry him, yada, yada, yada, is just that... bullshit. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have ganged up on you like some kind of tag-team wrestling duo with his therapist to demand that you just shut the hell up about it already.

There are words and there are actions. If you go back to last page and read the words, you can SEE with your own eyes that the actions don't match. That guy cheated on you and lied to your face for TWO YEARS and then had the audacity to walk out on you because he was pissy that you want answers and reassurance before you commit the rest of your life to a two-timing loser.

Right now, it might seem so difficult to solve the practical issues which keep you enmeshed in this relationship, but that's not something which resolves without your commitment to resolve it. If you make a list of what problems need to be tackled in order for you to break up with your WS, what's on it? How would you go about finding a solution for each item? Maybe that's a place to start. Certainly, I'd kick him out of my bed and wouldn't bother going back to therapy with him. In fact, I'd do a complete 180 and wouldn't discuss anything with him that wasn't a practical consideration of daily life, basically kids and finances. I'd get my ducks in a row and it would be "sayonara Mr. Cheaterpants".

You are young but you won't be young forever and a selfish partner can waste your whole life.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 6331   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8765464

LIYA13 ( member #62026) posted at 12:33 AM on Thursday, November 17th, 2022

You should be able to ask any questions you want without him getting angry or deflecting the questions. I think i asked a million questions and no doubt some of them I repeated. Firstly to see if he was willing to answer them. Secondly to see if his story was the same. I also didnt want to keep imagining things that were drastically different in my head then real life. So i kept asking and he kept answering and he did not get angry. In the beginning its difficult to take in all the information and the details but eventually I did. I needed to know for myself.

Like you and many others I was blind sided by the A. Like you all i did was love that man. I gave him everything he needed. A strong foundation to build a life together. I worked a 50+ hours job and financially supported him.I did everything for him (which was probably the mistake i made). He had a very easy life thanks to me and I guess he had ample opportunity and time to cheat. I definitely do regret being that innocent loving person who did everything for him and also being the person that kept the household together. I always use to ask the question how could he do this to me? why me? I didnt do anything to anyone to deserve anything like this. I have always been a nice and loving caring person. Ive not done anything negative in this life to deserve this. So I completely understand when you say you dont think you will ever be able to get over this. I am not going to lie. I dont think I will ever be able to either (Its been over 5 years). Yes I can forgive but there is no way I will be able to forget what he has done to me. It is one of the worst kind of traumas to go through.

I think to salvage any relationship the first thing you need to look at is what are they doing to help support you. I believe the person that breaks you will not be able to heal you. You have to do the healing mostly on your own. However having said that they need to show that they are remorseful and not just through their words. Look at his actions. What is he doing on a daily basis? Is he answering your questions or is he trying to just rugsweep? Just because you ask questions however awkward they may be this does not mean you are pushing them away or you are breaking the relationship further (he has already cause it to break to a million pieces). It means he just wants to brush everything under the carpet and just get back to the way things were. Well you wont have that and you need to make sure you communicate that to him. If he isnt up for discussing things and answering all your questions then he knows where the door is and you know exactly what the future holds for you. A selfish ungrateful narcissist who only thinks about his needs and just bascially himself.

I want to also add whether it was a ONS, 6 week affair or 6 month affair (like mine) or even a 2 year affair the bretrayal is just the same. The trauma is real and it feels like the end of the world when you discover it. You are hurting and he needs to understand that. Instead of addressing everything about himself he needs to see and observe what this has done to you. He is still being selfish by trying to gain sympathy from you. Please do take a step back and think about what you really want to do. Reconciliation takes two people and also requires 100% effort from the WS.

posts: 220   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2017   ·   location: United Kingdom
id 8765497

Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 4:00 AM on Thursday, November 17th, 2022

You do not need the grief. He and the therapist are in cahoots whether they recognize it or not. Do not go back. Your WS needs IC and you need to let him move on. He is giving you the silent treatment because he has power over you.
This is when you leave the room and possibly the house. Stop cooking for him. Stop doing his laundry. If he wants to act like a single man then he can live like one. You have too much on you to look after a baby man.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 3716   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8765515

justanotherperson ( member #82218) posted at 5:23 AM on Thursday, November 17th, 2022

Two things come to mind.

1 - Your WS needs IC for himself alone. He needs to fix himself in the way he behaves, in the way he tries to manipulate and in the way he does not fell any remorse for the bad things he has done.

2 - You need to focus on yourself. And on your kids. Get the strenght necessary to be more independent. Don't be the "typical" "do everything" nice wife he is used to. Do things for yourself and for your kids.

Take a step (or two) back. Don't be with him as a couple. Step back to take care of YOU. You need SPACE. And you need TIME to digest what has happened in your life. Let him do the work he needs to do if he wants to have a shot at staying with you. And even then, it is no guarantee you will want him with you. Cheating can (and many times is) be a deal breaker. And there is no shame in adressing that just like it is.

That is the only way to go forward. One way or the other. He has to have the need to COMPLETELY CHANGE so as to be a diferent safe person. But do check the ACTIONS and not the words. A truly remorseful spouse is seen miles away. If it comes to that - from that safe place you retreated to, you will be able to observe just that. And right now he is nowhere near that person.

All the best for you and for the kids.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 5:31 AM, Thursday, November 17th]

"It can't rain all the time."

posts: 67   ·   registered: Oct. 23rd, 2022   ·   location: O´Porto
id 8765530

Forks027 ( member #59996) posted at 6:16 AM on Thursday, November 17th, 2022

Welp, pretty much shows he's all words and no actions. And since that couples therapist seemed more geared towards WS, best not to go back to him either.

Until he's willing to and actually does do the hard work, then you don't really have much to work with. At this point, do the 180 and start focusing on yourself and the kids. Continue with IC.

posts: 447   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2017
id 8765534

 Twinmom878 (original poster new member #81150) posted at 3:39 AM on Friday, November 18th, 2022

Okay so tonight our child laid in bed with us because her twin fell asleep already she’s 6 and scared of dark and so she eventually falls asleep and he puts her back in her bed. He acts as if I’m not giving him attention on purpose and giving it to our child like a competition. He had said when he cheated on me that he thought I didn’t want him. He said I didn’t try to cuddle him and had the baby in the bed every night (the one that had cancer) and that I never once tried to cuddle. He always fell asleep early because he woke up early and had to get up for work and be there at 8am. It would take me longer to fall asleep and would be my time to myself mostly on my phone once he fell asleep after cleaning all day and brushing everyone’s teeth and putting them to bed and letting dogs out etc.. which he never once helped me with at all. He never touched the broom mop laundry etc. and I also work too at nights sometimes.
So I tried to talk to him tonight and I said you know it’s not a competition with her. She’s our baby. She wants love and to be with both of us. And you act like I’m to blame for you cheating because I put her in the bed with us "every night".. which wasn’t every night. And that would not have kept us from putting her in her bed if he was awake to have cuddle time or sex.
But he told me he’s not doing this and I’m not allowed to be talking about that right now and he’s not trying to argue. And he got loud and stood up and made a bunch of thunder and went downstairs to get in bed.
Am I wrong to be talking about that? I wasn’t loud I wasn’t trying to argue I was trying to get through to him that he’s not taking full responsibility for his cheating.

posts: 8   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2022   ·   location: Kentucky
id 8765650

BreakingBad ( member #75779) posted at 12:18 PM on Friday, November 18th, 2022


I'm so sorry that he is not remorseful and not really worried about healing himself or this relationship.

Please know that you are not seeing the situation inaccurately. You're assessing it correctly.

He is still gaslighting you. He is trying to make things your "fault": your fault that he "needed" to have the affair, your fault (even now) that you are hurt by his betrayal and that you can't magically & quickly "get over it" (rug sweep), your fault that he is "triggered" by your entirely normal need to discuss what happened and his twisted perceptions of blaming you.

Please do stop going to couple's appointments with your husband's skewed counselor who clearly doesn't specialize in betrayal trauma but who is ready to encourage rugsweeping. This counselor will not help your husband grow or become a safe partner.

You describe your husband's bluster well. He is trying to bully you into rugsweeping.

Betrayal itself is emotional abuse. You already feel that. Your husband doesn't want to accept that fact--for a variety of reasons. He wants to focus on why it's your fault and how you "drove" him to it. Nope. He had other options. He chose this destructive and self-centered one. He chose it. He acted on it over and over.

He is now doubling down on the emotional abuse by trying to blame you and avoid responsibility.

Cheaters often share certain qualities that allow them to cheat:

-They are avoidant. They avoid being vulnerable with their spouse in a way that would have allowed them to solve problems and chose a course that wasn't cheating. They avoid thinking deeply about how damaging their choices are while they are cheating. They avoid thinking too deeply about the destruction and pain their betrayal caused in the aftermath of discovery.

-They are self-focused and self-protective. Their betrayal shows how they chose "fixing" (helping, serving) themselves over protecting their partner, their marriage, their kids, etc. The way they deal with the aftermath, once caught, often still reflects a huge self-focus.

These are not behaviors that ensure emotional safety or any level of trust in a relationship.

As you might imagine these behaviors are also difficult to change.

Your husband is still caught up in a destructive cycle: avoiding the pain and shame caused by his actions and serving his own needs to protect himself...while letting you wallow in pain and also while hoping to heap some blame on you to add to your pain.

Is this done intentionally by him? Probably not. But it is done by him. He's too limited too stop or least right now. He doesn't want to, because he can't face the pain or the work it would take to change.

Is this the marriage you want? Is this the model of relationships you want for your kids?

I'm not saying you have to divorce. You don't have to do anything. The choices are yours, and I fully support your choices.

I am suggesting that you hit the pause button on the relationship--whatever that looks like for you--and work with your individual counselor to heal you so that you can make choices moving forward that are safe and helpful to you.

[This message edited by BreakingBad at 12:24 PM, Friday, November 18th]

"...lately it's not hurtin' like it did before. Maybe I am learning how to love me more."[Credit to Sam Smith]

Me=BW; fWH=online affairs with 3 APs over 3+ yrs.Both in IC & MC.Married 32 yrs now 2 kids-both in HS.Attempting R

posts: 336   ·   registered: Oct. 31st, 2020
id 8765692

Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 2:39 PM on Friday, November 18th, 2022

There are three children in your life. You gave birth to two of them. Whatever is wrong with him has nothing to do with you or your marriage. He is in that "mommy pay attention to me" stage and that means he still a child emotionally. I don’t know how you manage that and look after two little girls, one of whom is sick. I think it’s time for you to step back and just take care of your self and your little people and let him go do whatever he wants to do. You can’t make him grow up. You can’t change him into being a responsible loving father. He should be as anxious as you are about your children and he’s not because his focus is on himself. There is no way you can get around this. It’s like he’s a boulder and any move you make is going to bump into his giant ego that needs constant soothing. He is also stone walling you and gaslighting you and those are actually signs of contempt. He holds you in contempt so your opinions and your suffering do not matter to him. You need to become very aware of who he is emotionally and that’s who he will stay emotionally because right now he has a therapist who’s supporting him. You need to understand some therapist are just as sick as their clients..

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 3716   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8765704

sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 5:24 PM on Friday, November 18th, 2022

I don't know if your H is unremorseful or if his therapist is screwing him up.

Asking you about your feelings and where they are in your body is a pretty standard technique.

Speaking for your H - 'you're pushing him away' - is one of the worst things a therapist can do. And not asking your H about what he feels and where the feeling is in his body is another piece of atrociously bad therapy.

And why were you talking about your H's childhood in YOUR IC session? Your IC is about you, not about your H.

In attacking this C, I do not mean to attack you or your H. You just got a terrible C by the luck of the draw. Throw it back into the pool and find another one.

I know it's unfair that you have to do the work of dumping a C and finding a new one, but if you've reported accurately, this guy has already hurt you and your H and will continue to do so.

You deserve better.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 28194   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8765827

 Twinmom878 (original poster new member #81150) posted at 11:38 AM on Saturday, November 19th, 2022

This early morning I couldn’t sleep and was on my phone looking at the pictures of us and comparing them to when he messaged me those days and seeing how he lied through his teeth. Is that normal I do that? He acts like I’m nuts for doing that. He acts like it’s past (4 months since Dday and not present).

So I try to ask him where he was his birthday because we were together the day after his birthday and he got home late that night before but I don’t have proof to show he was with her and may not have been.

He said he wasn’t.

Then I said well what about June 29 because I know they messaged each other that day and they were suppose to meet to exchange a check. And he said he wasn’t. And I was like shouldn’t that be the last time you all did it. And so I said can you remember where you all were? And he said no he doesn’t. So I said can you remember the last time you saw her at all? And he said he’d have to think about it. And he left. So no answers at all.

He says he wants to move forward we are in therapy individual and currently needing a new couples counselor in betrayal trauma because other one was terrible. And that therapist told him it’s okay to not remember certain dates and times. Like gave an example how he can’t remember when exactly he bought something.

So I told him he is unable to talk about the affair and he is unable answer questions and face the responsibility and own it and confess all and allow me to move forward with him and heal our bond. I don’t know where to go from here. I don’t know if I’m in the wrong. I feel crazy. He makes it seem like I’m starting a fire.

[This message edited by Twinmom878 at 11:40 AM, Saturday, November 19th]

posts: 8   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2022   ·   location: Kentucky
id 8765916

ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 3:00 PM on Saturday, November 19th, 2022

He says he wants to move forward we are in therapy individual and currently needing a new couples counselor in betrayal trauma because other one was terrible. And that therapist told him it’s okay to not remember certain dates and times. Like gave an example how he can’t remember when exactly he bought something.

Lots of WS's claim they can't remember these kind of details, and it's possible that they're truthful about that. For the BS, there's an indelible scar which causes us to dwell on these things. We'd like to be able to forget, but thanks to the WS's treachery, that's not an option. Here's the thing though... what is he doing to find those answers for you? Has he written up a timeline? Gone through his receipts, his emails, his work calendars? Is he actively trying to provide those answers to you?

Of course he'd like to just "move on". What WS wouldn't? But that's not the way traumatized brains work. It's not your choice that your brain keeps trying to complete the picture of what happened. Our brains are like organic computers and all the data you had about this person and the life you were living together has turned out to be corrupt. So now you need to replace that data with new facts and those facts must be verified, and re-verified, and re-verified for as long as it takes until for some reason that we can't even explain for ourselves, the data is finally acceptable. Look around you. Read everyone else's thread here. You're doing what BS's do. It's ubiquitous. We all do it and there's a REASON for that. It's because we're human and because that's what traumatized humans do.

You are working with an incomplete puzzle and no picture on the box top to see what it ought to look like. Until your brain has a satisfactory "story" to explain what happened, you're going to be stuck working that puzzle. The smart thing for WS's who are actually remorseful and who actually want to save their home situation is to cooperate fully with assembling that puzzle and to show some actual EMPATHY. The problem is, your WS has not EMPATHY. If he did, maybe he's have some remorse and maybe he'd care how your children feel when they're sick and/or afraid.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 6331   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8765945
Topic is Sleeping.
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