SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well 14 months into reconciliation, if thats what you can call it.

I don't know if we can do this anymore.... Its so hard....

It feels like we have gone backwards.

My WW is doing everything on the surface to make things good. She has been nothing but consistent.

But its like she is willing to talk about my pain. She is willing to listen, but when I start to drill down into the feelings, the whys, the how's and so on. She changes.

She says I have the truth and all my answers. If you have read my previous posts you will see my story. But I think thats the version she wants to me believe. I 100% think she is trying to rug sweep.

She says, how the affair meant nothing to her and neither did her AP. But she keeps telling me that I know how she felt. She will says there were no feelings and she didn't want him. But she did enjoy time with the AP. The AP made her happy, they had fun and a laugh and she looked forward to seeing him every day.

Am I looking to much into this now. It happened 14 months ago? She has gone NC. She is showing me that she wants us and wants me. Should I be letter it go.

Im stuck with the thoughts about, how she felt about another man while with me. I cant get that out my head. Its worse than the thought of them having sex.

I dont get how she can turn off her feelings. Because when i look at her i see it in her eyes. Its like when i talk about their time together her eyes fill up. Maybe thats me being paranoid, I just dont know.

I keep thinking, she wants him, but is stuck with me. Im standing in her way of being happy with some one she really wants.

Because lets face it. If she had to chose between an exciting affair leaving the problems at home or she has the stress of reconciliation. Which one sound more appealing.

Over the past couple of months or so when we have argued badly, she will say that she is tired. She cant do this anymore. She says that I'm horrible to her at times and say nasty things. She says im wrapped up in my self to see how she is feeling. She says I don't see how this has affected her and that she hates what she has done to me and her family. She says she knows she has done wrong, but I cant expect her to sit there and take it. We have to move on and make a better life.

She says that I need to be careful, because just like I could leave at anytime, so can she. She keeps warning me that one day I might be on my own because she cant do this for ever. She says she wants me, she loves me but this has to stop. She doesn't want him she wants me and us.

Today, she is giving me the cold shoulder. She is the one that told me that she enjoyed spending time with the AP and looked forward to seeing him every day and its me thats getting the cold shoulder from her.

She just keeps saying I talk horrible to her at times. Which I admit I have done, but only in really bad arguments, which happen once every few months.

All I keep thinking now is that she is thinking about her affair in such a positive way. She says she is not and I'm not listening. She doesn't look back and think positive about the affair, she hates it. But she is telling me how it felt at the time. She keeps saying that was then and this is now.

Is that right? Should I be looking at it that way.

Im lost, I feel a bit trapped. Not because i want to leave. but just because no matter which way i turn I'm haunted by a man i have never met.

Why is she telling me how she felt at the time of the affair if she says she hates the affair looking back and what she has done

Infidelity results in divorce a lot. Keep in mind that many of the people who post here represent a small subset of people impacted by infidelity: people who are having second and third and fourth thoughts, hesitating, wondering if there is a way to keep families together. Many betrayed spouses simply move on, no questions asked. Mostly, those people never post on sites like this.

The experience of infidelity from the perspective of a betrayed spouse is often referred to as a shit sandwich. What you describe, my friend, that is you choking down your shit sandwich.

A truly remorseful WW can never eliminate the shit sandwich entirely. But she can impact whether it's a single decker, a double decker, a triple decker, etc. It is often said here that what a WW does after Dday is as impactful, or perhaps even moreso, than what she did during her A. Your struggles are a living, breathing example of this.

Many people choose to white knuckle it and remain (unhappily) married, and I can't fault anybody for his volitional, adult life choices. Life always involves compromises in many of its facets. But true reconciliation, where a couple rebuilds a strong, emotional, loving bond in the wake of infidelity, that's rare, and extremely difficult. It can take years. you're 14 months out. That's about 20% of the the process in ordinary conditions, with a truly remorseful WW who is doing the work. For this to succeed, the WW must be a long distance runner, she must be able to carry a lot of weight over an ultra-marathon. As you describe your WW, she is not that. She doesn't have that level of commitment to you or your family. She's not hungry for your love in a way that drives her to earn it back. Statements suggesting she is tired of dealing with the A, that you should be over it, etc., those are indicators that she won't go the distance. That, my friend, is your reality. Part of your shit sandwich. A double decker if ever I saw one.

You can only control you. I would suggest you look at your reality. Look at it directly, without blinking, and try to see it for what it truly is. Take off your hopium goggles and be honest with yourself. After you do that, you then need to make choices. You may choose to remain married to your WW. Nobody would fault you for that. But keep in mind that she might not make that choice. She herself might move on. She's already threatening to do that now. I point that out to reinforce the reality that you can only control you. You can decide to not divorce your wife. But you cannot decide to remain married. Both spouses must mutually make that choice, and you have no control over the choice she makes.

@Butforthegrace

Thank you for responding.

Its hard on a forum to put across the actual work that some one is doing in real life. Its very limits to be able to list everything.

I do see what your saying about my wife not being able to go the whole way. But we have been through some really bad times and she could have gone at any point but she stayed. She does a hell of a lot to help us heal.

But there is something now where she says we cant do this for ever.

Sometimes i think she is right we have to move on and try and make a better life together but sometimes i think she is saying she cant do it and she will leave

Regarding the statement you made:

Why is she telling me how she felt at the time of the affair if she says she hates the affair looking back and what she has done

Gently - isn't this what you asked for? Meaning, did you want her to be honest and not hide anything? Is she simply being honest as you asked? both about how she felt positively DURING the affair, but negatively about the affair NOW? Regarding feelings for AP, she shared much with him, I doubt that feeling goes away just like that - there will be lingering feelings no matter how hard she works on your M. But it is something that time and effort on herself will resolve, and at least some patience will be required on your part if you are committed to R.

She is your wife, so you would be the best judge of the expression on her face as she tells you about the affair. But do consider that your trauma could also be filling in some gaps. Certainly she can have more empathy for how you feel, but remember she is human and the stress can cause her to misstep as well. She has already shown what happens when she is vulnerable...can make the wrong choices. You're in R with a recovering addict.

For my part, I needed to know everything about my WWs affairs. How she felt...everything...no additions or subtractions on her part. The raw truth.

It still hurts to this day (now 14 years later) that she had emotional intimacy with another man. It burns, but its getting better. She went from "he is the love of my life" to "what the hell was I thinking? how did I ever love that loser?" She doesn't deny she "loved" him. And for a time, she had that dreamy look in her eyes if we brought AP2 up - but I saw an addict going through withdrawal, not some Romeo x Juliet crap. Now, she is either expressionless as if talking about the weather or curls her lip if either AP is mentioned.

Others can probably give better advice. But I think you might be overthinking this one aspect of it. It happened, and only time will make it better.

I understand your situation. But if she’s saying that there is a "time limit" on how long you can discuss her Affair, then sadly she doesn’t really get it.

Not by a long shot.

Is she in counseling? If not she should be.

Did she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From An Affair? If not she should.

She wrongfully believes that after a "period of time" the marriage is healed and the betrayed is "over it". She doesn’t grasp the trauma she has leveled in yiur M and your life.

If her words are "I can’t do this anymore" then she’s telling you she is not invested in the M b/c she wants to quit helping you heal. At 14 months you guys may be a long way from healed (I know I was).

If that is the case then YOU may need an exit plan just in case. I can tell you my H has never once said to me "I can’t do this anymore" and it’s been 9 years from Dday 1. He knows he created this storm and he needs to ride it out. Good or bad - he’s not running from me or this.

@LostOpportunities20

Thank you for your thoughts.

You have said some things that i really took on bored and thought about.

Sometimes i think may be I'm over thinking this too. But the pain is real.

I have OCD which doesn't hep things.

I have a bigger problem accepting the feelings, than I do accepting that fact she slept with him.

At least your wife was honest. I think my wife holds things back. Because she doesn't want to hurt me any more than she has and she doesn't know how I will react.

She says she never thinks about her AP. How can that be true. The affair only lasted 7 weeks. But the way she talks about it you would think they were madly in love.

She tells me he meant nothing and its the biggest mistake of her life but on the other hand i hear how he made her feel.

She really expects me to believe that she doesn't think about him and miss him.

My IC said that because of the trauma im stuck and 14 months past DDay is like yesterday. But for my wife 14 months is a long time. She will have started moving on past the fog.

I try and think about that but it doesnt sink in

@The1stWife

Thanks again for your valued opinion. You have commented on many of my posts and I would like to thank you for that.

I don't think she is giving me a time limit as such. I asked her about this and she is saying that she knows how i feel but i cant keep bringing it up all the time asking the same questions. She is saying we have to at some point start working on trying to limit the affair talk and working on building a future together which is better than before.

She did read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From An Affair around a few months after dday.

She keeps saying to me she knows things aren't fixed and we aren't back to normal. She says she knows things have changed but she is doing all she can to fix things. On the surface she is.

She says she doesn't get my pain as she hasn't been cheated. She says she would be lying to say she does. But she can imagine the pain she has caused and what I'm going through. She said she see me so sad every single day and she has to live with herself knowing she caused that

She’s telling you she doesn’t want to see your pain. 🚩

She’s telling you to "move on" 🚩

She’s telling you to sweep this under the rug 🚩

Because it’s too painful for her.

That is not how this works. I’m not looking to make your wife seem like a bad person, but my experience with my H’s first 4 year EA (that he denied) was to allow him to call the shots and let him rug sweep the whole thing. No apology. No discussion.

That made it easier for him to cheat the 2nd time. Because he thought he’d get away with it and b/c there were no consequences the first time.

Reconciliation is a process. Good days. Bad days. Move forward. Regress. Statistics day healing is 2-5 years. 3 years seems to be a norm. 2 years if you are lucky.

You should not be stifled in being able to share your feelings. Sorry - if that is what your spouse is expecting, then you won’t heal fully AND the resentment will continue to build.

You deserve better. Period.

You asked her how she felt during the affair and she told you. Look, affairs are pleasurable, if they weren't, no one would have them. This is part of the shit sandwich you have to eat (or not). She enjoyed herself. She let the feel goods take over her senses and had a damn fun time doing it. She wasn't thinking about you at all. She cared only for herself and took what she wanted.

Ever start a diet and you're doing great but you fall off the wagon and eat a double cheeseburger with fries and then an ice cream sundae? Yeah you enjoyed it in the moment but later you're filled with self loathing and disgust with yourself. This is a lame comparison but my point is, people can regret their choices. People can some to see how wrong they were but only by eliminating their excuses and trying to do better going forward.

She may very well feel differently today i.e regret her choices. It's still early days for you all so she may not be fully where you'd like her to be: sick at the thought of him and what they did. WS have a lot of justifications and defenses to take down to get to that point. A lot never get there. But I'd imagine it's tough work. Only you will know if she's doing it. Is she being honest about her justifications and how lame they were? Is she dropping defensiveness and owning her shit choices fully? Does she show shame and remorse? These are some clues she is doing the work

The hardest thing about R is trying to build a new marriage with NO TRUST. I mean, that's so hard it's near impossible. But at some point, if you feel she is working and trying to earn some trust, BSs have to make a choice to trust. Some. Trust-ish. She is telling you that she does not pine for AP, does not want him and chooses you. You can decide to trust that one thing. What's the worse thing that happens if you extend that trust? She leaves to be with him? If that is what she wants, it will happen no matter what you believe. Now, you can extend that bit of trust and withdraw it should she prove untrustworthy again. But you can make a conscious decision to believe her words on this subject, extend a dime of trust and move forward to other issues that need your attention. Super hard, I know. But if some trust isn't extended (based on your words that she is working i.e. trying to earn it), your marriage will fail imo. Some kind of trust has to start somewhere.

Practical advice: you say you have OCD. Perhaps this is wearing her down some. How about set a time each week or day, whatever you need, to have these talks. She can't ask you to stuff your thoughts and feelings, that's not going to work. But setting aside time for this stuff might help her be more receptive to it and also help you control the OCD.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 3:05 PM, Friday, August 5th]

@TheEnd

Thank you for your advice.

You make a lot of sense and your words hit home and made me stand back and think.

I over analyzed everything. Until I decided I was needlessly suffering.

Knowing I had an exit plan and a post nup gave me the confidence I needed. It restored my belief in myself and the fact that I knew I would be fine whether we R or D.

And while my H was remorseful, even at Dday2, true remorse didn’t happen for almost 18 months. That’s when he realized the devastation he caused. The fact he was kicking me to the curb was the worst if it, and I was the last to know.

From what you say, your W cheated for external validation. Unless she is doing something to learn to validate herself, she'll be vulnerable to cheating again for external validation.

Learning to validate oneself is hard work. Most people who change from needing external validation to not needing it do so with the help of a good IC.

What is your W doing to heal herself? WHat is she doing to change from cheater to good partner? If she's trying to do it on her own, she'll almost definitely fail.

Over the past couple of months or so when we have argued badly, she will say that she is tired. She cant do this anymore. She says that I'm horrible to her at times and say nasty things. She says im wrapped up in my self to see how she is feeling. She says I don't see how this has affected her and that she hates what she has done to me and her family. She says she knows she has done wrong, but I cant expect her to sit there and take it. We have to move on and make a better life.

She says that I need to be careful, because just like I could leave at anytime, so can she. She keeps warning me that one day I might be on my own because she cant do this for ever. She says she wants me, she loves me but this has to stop. She doesn't want him she wants me and us.

I get that you are both tired, but this is when I pull out "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" and start quoting out of it.

There can be this sort of power struggle, as has been mentioned in many threads. Whoever cares less in the relationship ultimately has the power. But in a good relationship, you both care and neither of you want to leave. I don't think your M is currently in this condition.

I do agree that either of you could choose to leave at any time. I live with this reality every day, and I think it's just fine. It doesn't wear on me or grate on me. I'm ready for her to say goodbye. Fully prepared. I'd rather be married, but I'm sure as shit not going to try to keep her in an M she doesn't want to be in. Zero resistance. I kind of think that's a good thing. I know she isn't staying out of some perceived obligation. I'm sure at some point on this board I said something like "What, is the new marriage not a lifetime commitment? Just as long as I can hack it?" and basically the answer is yes. That used to make me uncomfortable, but now it doesn't.

All of that said, I do think you are struggling a little with what exactly the draw of an A is. Why your WW engaged in it, and what kind of emotions it brings up for her.

Maybe I'm just too soft, or too into what one poster might call "post-modern navel gazing", but if you think about it based on what's in "Not Just Friends" and maybe just a bit of Esther Perel's POV (I'm not trying to justify, but rather empathize a little here). We can understand the feelings and motivation for the affair. I think you are still carrying with you the sort of impression of affairs that most people have before they are impacted by one, and certainly one that I used to have.

"I would leave before I would cheat". This simple sentence that many of use have said or thought really just misses the point of most affairs and has implicit buy in on the unmet needs fallacy. In your case we have something different but similar:

I keep thinking, she wants him, but is stuck with me. Im standing in her way of being happy with some one she really wants.

Nah man. She wants both. This is the key. She wants both. Always had, probably always will. Most of us go through life not doing what we want because we know it will hurt someone we love. I'm not just talking about affairs either. We all compromise our selfish desires to some degree because we know other people are counting on us. On the flip side, we all generally end up doing things a little more selfishly than we would like to as well. You don't do it because you don't care about the other people, you do it because it feels good.

The affair felt good. If it didn't she wouldn't do it. I am never going to sit here and pretend my wife didn't like her A. She did. She liked her AP and she liked her A and she liked the feelings she had in the A. Doesn't mean she ever had any intention of leaving me or that she thought AP would make her happier as an actual partner. This is often referred to (maybe not very helpfully?) as the shit sandwich. This thread might help if you feeling like you have to "eat the sandwich":

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/635313/the-shit-sandwich-analogy/

I do think you have to do something with the shit. You have to process the shit if you want to R. You have to accept your wife did something selfish, that she enjoyed, at your expense, and did so knowingly and willingly. The work is proving she understands her thought process that allowed her to make this series of selfish decisions and correct them the next time a similar opportunity comes along. That she is now a "safe partner". Right now, you don't seem to feel safe, and from your report I don't think she isn't doing much to reassure you on that front.

It may help both of you to "future frame" the issues you are still struggling with about the A. I'm not saying to move on. But you need to accept the reality of your history, and the goal here, is to make sure that concern is addressed and won't be a problem *again*. "I'm really struggling still with how you connected with your AP so fast. How do I know you will set better boundaries next time you start getting the attention of another man you are attracted to?"

The "why" you keep digging for, I think is truly important. If she doesn't understand her why, can't explain it to you in a way that sticks, and explain how she has become safe, you are still white knuckling it. It will wear you both out going that way.

I commented on a thread of yours a few months back and I am going to tell you the same thing again. The memories are the waywards to keep and do whatever they want with. No way you can control that at all. Your WW wife seems to have had the time of her life, misses what she had, and can't truthfully reframe that.

There also seems to be a mistakes/regret(rugsweeping) mindset instead of a choices/remorse(reconciliation) mindset. She may not have it in her to run this marathon. I dare say she has no plan to, she needs you to call it "good enough" because the romanticized affair is truly part of who she will always be. I hope you don't do it, call it good enough, because you are suffering in that place and you deserve better.

p12241342,

I read some of your older posts.

Is your WW still friends with OMW?

Does the OM still live nearby or within driving distance?

Do your kids still go to school with OM kids?

If things haven't changed you have a large number of triggers possible.

Did your WW ever write out a timeline, polygraph?

Were there consequences for the OM? At a minimum did you confront.

I am going to take a different view on this. 14 months is nothing in terms of you getting past this. Especially in your mind set. 14 months however is interminable if someone was asking you the same question 3 times a week over and over. From her perspective she moved, got rid of social media, changed numbers, and stayed with you. She probably thinks she has done some hard things but gets rewarded with the same question which is basically did you enjoy the affair and do you look back on it with fondness.

The answer is she did enjoy it, he meant something to her, and while she hates the situation her cheating put you both in, the two months of him telling her how wonderful she was and great sex looks pretty good from her vantage point now. She just is never going to admit this. What’s her upside. It won’t make the questions stop, and probably will lead to worse ones

Someone mentioned the shit sandwich. I know this isn’t a popular point of view, but at some point the BS just has to eat the damn thing if they want to get past the affair. The WS can help, but at some point the BS just has to say I got fucked over by the person I loved, but then has to decide what’s next. They can decide no I’m not going to eat this thing and walk, they can eat it and accept it but find it worth it as they still love their spouse and they think they can find happiness again, or the can do what you are doing and sit in the same spot and get nowhere. I know this as I spent 5 years with the last scenario.

My Ex like yours did everything. I mean everything to right the ship. I stopped her and threw up obstacles every step of the way. She never told me to move on, but I knew she was frustrated and would actually hear her cry when she didn’t think I was around. She until the day of the divorce thought things would be ok. They would never be as I just wasn’t going to ever forgive her. Truly a weakness on my part.

You got screwed. She may not have loved the guy, but had special feelings for him then, and probably now. She had fun with him, and probably way more great sex than she will ever admit. But if she has kept NC and been a good partner what can she now do to really help you and the marriage? In your mindset, probably nothing. Again, I know this as I had the same one.

I decided that I never was going to let myself get past this. I was unwilling to meet her not just halfway, but not even one step.

You just need to decide if this is worth fight for on your part. It’s ok if it is, or if it isn’t.

You also need to ask yourself the endgame. What can she say or do now after 14 months to get the marriage moving forward? My guess is right now nothing she says or does can help unless you accept and take the dreaded bite of the sandwich. It does just suck

Fundamentally, I think your issue snd WWTL’s issue are separate, with some similarities of course.

Your issue I don’t believe is based around anger, resentment, and the injustice of your WWs A. It’s more about what does she recall specifically about her AP, how much significance does she assign to these memories snd recollections, snd when do they pop up in her mind. The concern is about a side by side comparison between you snd AP.

I think many BHs have this thought. If a BH could have 100 percent assurance that the AP would never pop up in the WWs mind full stop, then R might be more easily digested than the shit sandwich.

However, in WWTLs case, I think the above matters, but the anger, resentment, and injustice issues concerning his WWs A are more significant. If WWTL could have had 100 percent assurance that the AP would never again be thought of in WW mind, even for a second, it doesn’t erase the core issue surrounding the crime of cheating itself. It doesn’t change how he now negatively views his WW.

I hope I’m not putting words into both of your mouths - it’s my gut interpretation of things.

Going back to the issue of what goes through a WWs mind snd when, for example, what do spouses think of during sex with their partners? I’ve read many times over that most think about having sex with other people and put themselves in scenarios other than in the current one of having sex with their spouse.

If you knew your WW thought about a past boyfriend (prior to M) when having sex with you, how much would you be bothered by it? How would this compare to one time she thinks about pre M boyfriend A, another time boyfriend B, another time boyfriend C, another time her AP?

I don’t have answers for you just a way to help contextualize things.

All I keep thinking now is that she is thinking about her affair in such a positive way. She says she is not and I'm not listening. She doesn't look back and think positive about the affair, she hates it. But she is telling me how it felt at the time. She keeps saying that was then and this is now.

I went through this, these exact thoughts tortured me for quite a while.

But many WS regret and despise their choices and actions, even if there was a thrill in the moment.

My wife says none of it was worth it, not a single moment of it, and I believe her….now.

I believe because of how I’ve been treated since her confession, based on her actions, based on her work to understand how and why she fell so far in making horrible decisions.

The success of my R is living NOW instead of then.

All of that said, I would never recommend someone stay, even if their wife is doing all the work.

Infidelity breaks the deal. It’s a full reset.

It’s the new deal or what you do with that reset that counts moving forward.

If you’re done, you’re done. No harm at all in that either.

Build an R worthy of your time or build a new life solo, worthy of your time. It’s all about what YOU want and need now.

I am in total agreement with what a lot of people on here are saying...and I LIVED it like The1stWife did.

I would have divorced my H the INSTANT he threatened to leave. HE caused this pain...and HE was going to be in this infidelity HELL he put me in...or HE was gone!!

Instead...my H used words like...it didn't matter whether I loved him or not. As long as I allowed him to stay with me...that was all HE wanted.

When I told him that I could only see bad days ahead for him because of all the anger I felt...he told me that our WORST day together was better than the best day they ever had.

It is often said on here that there should be ACTIONS over WORDS. That is true...but I believe that words MATTER. Especially when she is threatening to leave over the pain you are expressing.

I understand WWTL's point and don't disagree with his logic. Part of reconciling is a conscious decision by the BS to just get on with it. Choke down the shit sandwich.

But details matter. Shit sandwiches come in different sizes, thickness, degrees of ordure. There are affairs where the cheating partner is beaten down by a bad marriage going worse. There are affairs where the cheating partner is a sex addict who has a string of AP's. There are countless other types of affairs, and degrees of cheating, etc.

From my perspective, the one affair that would be hardest to reconcile from is the classic cake eating affair, which is what your WW's was. It truly was an instance of a spouse arrogating the right to interpret the marriage as a secret, one-sided open marriage in which she was free to enter into an ongoing, limerent, highly immersive affair with a man whom she found hot and desirable and from whom she enjoyed a high degree of satisfaction and fulfillment. It is truly anathema to the core notion of being married. It is accurate to say that your WW was in fact not married to you during her A.

You describe yourself as OCD, which to me means you're not really OCD in the clinical sense. Rather, you have traits that tend toward what we think of as OCD, meaning you like logic and order in your life.

You keep asking the same question because you're trying to comprehend what is probably incomprehensible to you. In your mind, you promise fidelity for life, and therefore you give fidelity for life. You give what you promised. Even if your fantasy hot woman came along and offered you some free sex and passion, you'd give her fidelity for life. Like you promised.

Your wife didn't do that. She broke her promise. She did it for shallow, selfish, short-sighted reasons. But fundamentally she did it because she wanted to do it more than she wanted to be married to you. As WWTL says, you either choke that down and remain married, or you don't.

Frankly, I agree with Want2Be above. You're only 14 months in to what is, at best, a 5-year process and already she's threatening to leave? "Here's the back of the door, honey, don't hit yourself on the way out."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:02 PM, Saturday, August 6th]