SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I wanted to post about something I'm really struggling with. My story here:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=655339&HL=79683

I'm basically doing the pick me dance. I know that I'm not supposed to and I basically read about the 180 and not doing the pick me dance immediately following DDay. My problem is that cutting my wife off and "moving on", not focusing on her, not working on the relationship and being basically an emotionally abusive asshole is basically what made me lose her in the first place. I know the 180 would just cause her to leave and accept divorce. This was basically an exit affair. I'm about a month out from DDay and honestly things have been going pretty well between us. We're focusing on the relationship, have started to go on more dates, communicate better, and the affair has been a pretty open topic of conversation whenever I've needed to talk about it. I would still say it's far too early to tell if R is possible, but the early signs are there that at least an ATTEMPT is possible.

Am I an idiot? I'm still in a great deal of pain and have to fake a smile every day and grit my way through work every day, but I'm still in a much better place than I was following DDay. I know her decision to cheat was entirely on her and she's said this as well. We're both guilty of betraying each other's trust and stopped being safe partners for each other, our individual versions just look a lot different. Every relationship is different and how couples deal with affairs is likely different in each case as well. I'm just constantly worried that I'm doing the wrong thing. I feel that the only way I can get her to buy into the possibility of us having a future is to show her I can be the partner she needs while we as a couple and I individually heal. I'd just love to hear people's perspectives on this. Thank you for reading.

What are you doing that constitutes the pick-me dance?

IMO, honesty is the basis of R, and if you want to R, it's important to acknowledge it to yourself and to your WS. The thing is: you need boundaries, and you need to maintain them. For example, if your W has not established NC, that's a big deal, and accepting it is a pick-me action. If your W blameshifts, lies, minimizes, TTs - those are giant red flags, and accepting any one of them is a pick-me action.

IIRC, the 180 was first documented as a last step taken by a woman to get herself to accept that her H would not R. The 180 tactics turned her H around, but that wasn't the goal - the goal was to help this woman detach enough to D.

It includes 2 sets of actions: 1) to find and enhance her own strengths, and 2) to minimize her interactions with her H. All BSes need to enhance their strengths, but if R is a possibility, IMO, you need to maximize communications. That tests your WS and gives them chances to fail. If they step up, great - that's positive for R. If they don't step up, it's negative for R.

I found the 180 documentation to hold lots of internal contradictions. IMO, a much better view is https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/.

*****

I feel that the only way I can get her to buy into the possibility of us having a future is to show her I can be the partner she needs while we as a couple and I individually heal.

You're the prize; she isn't.

You be you. If that's not enough for your W, why would you want her? If you're not what she wants, why stifle yourself and spend your energy being someone you aren't?

R is mutual. You (re)build your M together - you both have input into what your new M will be. That's the only way you can create an M that serves you both. That requires total honesty, with yourself and with her.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:10 PM, Monday, January 10th]

Sisoon

Thank you so much for the reply. I wouldn't say my wife has blame-shifted. She definitely blames me for her being unhappy, but she's never once suggested it's my fault she cheated. Lying is tougher to know. She seemed very forthcoming with information on DDay and since, but when you find out you've been lied to for months, it's tough to know what the truth even looks like anymore. She confessed even though I presented her with no evidence at all, which is worth something I think. She's told me about interactions with AP at work that don't have anything to do with work. She's agreed to leave her job, though we're going to have to have another discussion about when that will be because otherwise I feel she'll just put it off and once she leaves, it'll have to be no contact and she'll have to show me that she's blocked his number.

You're spot on with the "you be you" idea, it's just so complicated for me because I haven't been myself for some time. I'm not this abusive asshole who pretends not to care about the people he loves, I do know that. So unhappy and so anxious for months and it's contributed to our relationship heading down this horrible pit. I'm in therapy now and taking medication to help with the anxiety and to shave some of the sharp ends off my emotions, so I guess I need to figure out/remember what being me even looks like.

She definitely blames me for her being unhappy

This stuck out to me. YOU are not responsible for her happiness. 'Happy' is an internal emotion that each individual is responsible for. And it doesn't matter of you were the worst spouse in history (which I am sure you weren't), SHE is still responsible for her own feelings and emotions.

My problem is that cutting my wife off and "moving on", not focusing on her, not working on the relationship and being basically an emotionally abusive asshole is basically what made me lose her in the first place.

The 180 is not about being an emotionally abusive asshole. The 180 is to give you mental and emotional space so you can look at things more objectively. I didn't do it either, for many of the same reasons you cited, but I wish I had. All it did for me by not doing the 180 was keep me in the relationship 9 months longer.

so I guess I need to figure out/remember what being me even looks like.

Doing the 180 gives you room to do this.

I feel that the only way I can get her to buy into the possibility of us having a future is to show her I can be the partner she needs while we as a couple and I individually heal.

Yep - this is the pick me tango. I did it too, as have a lot of other BS's. But honestly, the question here isn't are YOU the partner SHE needs... the question is - is SHE the partner YOU deserve? Because IIRC, you were having some marital issues prior to the A, but YOU didn't decide to cheat. She did.

We're both guilty of betraying each other's trust and stopped being safe partners for each other, our individual versions just look a lot different.

As I said before, I am sure you weren't perfect, because no one is. But You not being perfect and her having an affair aren't even in the same planetary system of betraying trust. I did a lot of this too - looking back I think it was more because if I could find a thing that I did that was wrong or whatever, then I could 'fix' it. But here's the thing, I couldn't fix him cheating. That was a choice he made to do that, and there was not one thing I did or didn't do that caused it. I can accept accountability for the things in my M that I did or things I would handle differently in the future, but I do NOT accept one grain of accountability for him deciding to cheat.

In the initial stage of this trauma, it seems common that the BS overestimates his or her imperfections. Cheating is not a normal response to dissatisfaction, its abusive.

Before accepting responsibility for her cheating, maybe take some time and think about whether you really were all that bad of a husband. Maybe you were, or maybe this is just a response to the trauma.

I am sure you were less than perfect. Pretty sure, since she cheated( thus demonstrating a lack of integrity, empathy, communication skill, and problem solving ability), your wife caused issues in the marriage as well. Yet, you did not cheat. Hard to be objective in the initial aftermath due to fear.

You be you. If that's not enough for your W, why would you want her? If you're not what she wants, why stifle yourself and spend your energy being someone you aren't?

I agree with Sisoon.. you be you. There's NOTHING about R which requires you to be "an emotionally abusive asshole". I certainly wasn't EVER mean or hateful to my fWH in the aftermath of his cheating. That said, I did NOT contort myself into some kind of mold designed to be what he "needed". What he needed actually was to grow the hell up and be responsible for his own emotional response to his life and stop blaming me whenever he felt disappointed or unhappy. I'm not here on this earth to make everything alright for him. I'm not here to fulfill his "needs".

So, I guess it really depends on how much of yourself you're giving away to pacify her, because it will never be enough. The cheater has to fix what's broken on the INSIDE and if they don't, they'll just keep using you and blaming you when their life isn't perfect.

If it was an exit affair, let her go. I still think what I thought in your original thread. She was already lying and rewriting relationship history and invited you to MC in order to start blaming you for the A that she was ALREADY IN. Do you have a detailed timeline of the A?

In your original thread, I wrote

My guess is the A started before MC and she lied throughout. She was having you play the pick me dance without telling you about the A.

I doubt there is a healthy relationship to be had between the two of you.

If she wants to R, she should give you a complete written timeline of the A and a polygraph to confirm. She still works with her AP, which even if she has ended the A for now basically makes healing impossible (ask me how I know and what a year+ of foot dragging feels like).

As for you behavior, absolutely recognize you were wrong in treating her that way. Fix yourself and your issues. But don't do it to win her back. Do it to be a better person.

You have to fix the A and the abuse before you can do anything else. You basically have two mountains to move. Good luck, sending strength.

This still applies.

My problem is that cutting my wife off and "moving on", not focusing on her, not working on the relationship and being basically an emotionally abusive asshole is basically what made me lose her in the first place. I know the 180 would just cause her to leave and accept divorce.

No need to be "abusive" in your behavior for the 180. Just give her what she wants. "I understand the AP is important to you. I don't want to get in the way of your happiness. Unfortunately, if I want you to be happy in this way, that means I can't continue on as your husband."

I think you are missing a bit about the 180 is about. It's about showing you are strong enough for yourself if she decides she doesn't want to be with you. That you won't put emotional energy into a relationship while she is still in contact with the AP. You have to let go of the outcome. Step one is get out of infidelity. If you can't do that, you will be worn to the bone in no time. Then guess what, she is gonna go back to the A anyway and cake eat (even if it was originally an exit A). Then she can just say, "Sorry you didn't get enough good boy points over the last six months. I think I'm gonna fuck AP again. Do the dishes while I'm gone, honey."

Even if you want to R, the goal is to understand and focus on your needs.

As I mentioned before, I stayed in limbo for basically a year and the "work only" contact didn't help and there was one break of that NC agreement as well (which is almost guaranteed under the white knuckle conditions of "work only").

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:32 PM, Monday, January 10th]

the question is - is SHE the partner YOU deserve? Because IIRC, you were having some marital issues prior to the A, but YOU didn't decide to cheat. She did.

This^^^ don't let your WS flip the script here.

Honestly, as toxic as things were between the both of us, I think it's fair to ask at the same time to each other are WE the partners we EACH deserve. There's really no script flipping here. I've had a month to think about our relationship and the way things have been going for the past year or more and there's a great deal of blame to go around everywhere. I've been a really horrible partner and I can confidently say, objectively, she hasn't been half as horrible as I have. Our issues were with intimacy, but she gave me the playbook on what she felt she needed in that department and I discarded it and accused her of lying.

To Thisisfine, no, I do not believe the affair was happening during marriage counseling and it was actually me that dragged her there, not the other way around. I have a pretty solid timeline, though I don't have anything to corroborate. I don't think she'd resist if I asked for it, I just have no interest in seeing messages between them as I think it'd be too painful right now. She is not still "seeing" the AP as far as I know (like I said, the truth becomes so foreign when you've been lied to for so long). When we've discussed the affair, she says she feels less and less affection for him every time she thinks about it. Also, I've made it clear that the only way we'd have a chance is if she leaves her job and goes no contact. That's a non-negotiable for me, and I'm ready to let go and move on if that need can't be met. I couldn't ever be a good partner or even begin to build trust in her back with her at that job every day.

Don't be so harsh on yourself.

You caught her flirting with her AP a long time ago, and they probably had affaire then too.Your reaction to this has not been ideal. But still, the reason for the A was not that you were an asshole, it was actually your WW who became an asshole by rejecting you with all kinds of excuses and having an A with him.
At that time, your attitude was in her favor to legitimize her A, consciously or instinctively.

She has no right to say anything. While all this was going on, she married you and swore to you that she would be faithful. Here we say that for those who make an excuse for cheating on marital problems, this cannot be an excuse, cheaters have a choice like divorce. She didn't even need that, all she had to do was not marry you and break up.
If this was a exit A, she would never have married you. She just took the opportunity when she saw you blame yourself and do the pick me dance. Why not; you don't even let her need to defend herself by blaming yourself.
You should immediately stop doing pick me dance. It just makes everything worse.
If you respond to disrespect in this way, her disrespect towards you will increase even more. Don't tolerate it, respect yourself and expect others to respect you too. You don't have to win her, she has to win you.
You might extend your marriage a little bit this way, but was this a marriage or a wife you wanted? She still works with her AP, do you really believe that now they are just doing their job professionally?
You should request a detailed timeline of her A to subject to the polygraph test. Maybe you'll change your mind about R when you see the whole iceberg.

Good luck.

I think it's fair to ask at the same time to each other are WE the partners we EACH deserve.

I have a BIG problem with that.

Look, I almost always word my thoughts as recommendations. I'm not doing that in this post.

You already know that you don't know your W. How, then, can you have any idea if you're the partner she deserves?

Focus on what you can know - is she the partner you deserve? You're the only person in the world - the only person who ever has existed, exists, or will exist - who can answer that question.

She has to come up with her own answer. Butt out of her decision. She has to take her perceptions and make a decision.

Do what I say. (Forget that I'm not omniscient and that I can't predict the future....)

You be you. If she likes being with you, she'll pick you (although that's not necessarily the only reason she might choose to stay). If you adjust yourself to meet her ideal, she may stay - but you'll have to pretend to be someone you're not for a long, long time. I urge you not to do that to yourself. (Note that I'm back to recommending.)

One of the best parts of you being you is that doing so makes it easier to know if your W is a person you really want to spend the rest of your life with. Being you makes it easier to set boundaries that serve you. Knowing your boundaries makes it easier to find a good match - maybe your W, maybe not.

You already know you have lost your sense of self. I recommend as strongly as possible that you first start finding yourself again before you think about rebuilding with your W. You are not your M. Don't sell yourself out. Don't sell yourself short.

Note that I've R'ed. I'm not saying you should D or R. I'm saying that finding your self again is virtually a prerequisite for making the best D/R decision you can.

The 180:

The way I understand it:

Should be used to break yourself out of active infidelity. It prevents you from being a co-operator during active infidelity. People passively co-operate with infidelity when they don't draw hard boundaries with enforced consequences, when they acquiesce to the various forms manipulation or, when they do the "Pick Me Dance".

The 180 is not being an asshole. It's a passive form of resistance like a Strike, Sick Out or a Walk Out. A boycott of emotions. You are simply refusing all forms of affection and maintaining safe distance while your WS poses a hazard or risk to you. Hazards can include: Active cheating, gas lighting, threats or abuse, refusing transparency, and active deceit that undermines your current state of security (more than just withholding past A details).

The 180 is Safe Distance. It's isolating yourself from danger and ongoing disrespect when the marital agreement and boundaries are being actively violated.

It's not a form of punishment and should not involve abuse or antagonization. You are simply refusing to participate in active infidelity and violations of marital tenants by withdrawing your emotional goods from the marriage table. You are maintaining physical and emotional safe distance and divorcing yourself emotionally from the marriage so that NEITHER OF YOU engage in the various forms of manipulation.

You still communicate, but the dialogue should be terse, business only, professional and kept to family operating business and restating your demands when asked.

The 180 is the first degree of separation.

If the 180 doesn't result in met demands to your satisfaction, you then move towards formal separation and divorce proceedings where all communication then goes through your attorneys.

If your WW is not actively cheating and is trying to reconcile and meet your demands, the 180 may be unwarranted-even counter productive.

It's ok to be a good husband and be a bereaved BS at the same time. It's ok to have great Date Night, come home make love than cry yourself to sleep. You're not compromising yourself there. You're experiencing the roller coaster of emotions she should expect. There's nothing at all wrong with YOU BOTH trying to improve the marriage while you are grieving at the same time. That's not a pick me dance.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:20 PM, Monday, January 10th]

Keep talking with one another. Keep trying. Discuss, argue, come to terms. The crappy marriage involves both of you. Maybe you had more bad intentions, maybe she did.. the point is only you and she can decide what is best for both of you, you can decide what is best for you and she can decide what is best for her, post infidelity.

I find that what some folks need to hear more on SI is to keep trying for a long time and give one another the grace of a second chance in relationships where it is safe to do so and the WS is NC with the AP.

The affair is totally her responsibility and the fallout affects you, her and all who know about it. That is another situation to deal with, apart from marriage issues.

One the harder things to do for both me and my husband, was to separate the crappy marriage problems we had from his affair problems. Somehow we muddled through it. And boy, did we ever muddle through! It took talking, talking and more talking and coming to partial understanding. I'll throw in therapy, books and good supportive family members and good friends.

Look we were mixed up, I was confused with all the information and advice thrown my way, then when things began to make sense, well sometimes ti did not.

But I never gave up talking with him. Never. No matter what he threw my way...silent treatment, blameshifting, more silent treatment, deflecting, getting angry that I would not let go and move on...you name he did it. Sure I would get angry and bitter, but I never gave up talking....it worked for us.

I've had a month to think about our relationship and the way things have been going for the past year or more and there's a great deal of blame to go around everywhere. I've been a really horrible partner and I can confidently say, objectively, she hasn't been half as horrible as I have. Our issues were with intimacy, but she gave me the playbook on what she felt she needed in that department and I discarded it and accused her of lying.

I know it's really hard to do post-A, but try to separate the marriage problems from the affair problem. They are two entirely different things.

I know my xwh tried to put those two on the same level, but they aren't. Own your part of the marriage issues - I don't think any spouse ever doesn't have things they could improve upon. But don't make the marriage issues the same as her affair, that allows her to dodge her accountability and that is a key part of R. Also, just putting this out there, but if she's saying "sorry I had an affair but you made me unhappy"... uh-uh. If she was unhappy, she had any number of other options other than cheating on her husband.

I do not believe the affair was happening during marriage counseling and it was actually me that dragged her there, not the other way around.

Case in point. You recognized marital issues and sought counseling. THAT is a reasonable reaction to marital problems. Cheating isn't.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to take your statement that you have been a terrible husband at face value.

Why do you respect your wife more now that she has cheated on you than you did when you thought she was faithful? Why would an affair make you desperate to preserve a relationship from which you were already disengaged? Are you just afraid of change? Do you just want to "win" against the AP?

If this was an exit affair, why do you think a "too little, too late" pick me dance will win her back after she's already checked out of your relationship and given herself emotionally and physically to someone else?

How would winning the pick-me dance make her willing to put in the hard work of repairing the marriage? After all, you drove her into the arms of another man and now you're the one doing all the work to convince her that staying married to you is the best decision she can make. Based on this, after several months of being courted by you and indulging in hysterical bonding, which do you think is more likely: (1) She will become accountable for her actions, weather the anger phase when it finally hits you, endure years of arguments and triggers, and struggle to rebuild your trust or (2) She will complain about how you're being mean and trying to punish her, and demand that you "get over it."

BluerThanBlue

I don't know if I would say I respect her more now. I think more than anything, I had talked myself into the constant fighting, silent treatment and BS constantly plaguing our relationship as being normal where my wife saw it for what it really was. Now that the affair is out, it almost feels like I've been woken up. Like something so horrific has finally happened that I can see it now. I can see how she got here. It's not to excuse it by any means. There are so many healthier decisions she could have made to either try to save the relationship or call it quits.

The short answer for you and everyone else on this thread asking me the hard hitting questions of how exactly my behavior is going to save our marriage or work in any way is: I have no clue. Maybe it won't. This is all new territory for me and I'm really scared all the time. Maybe I am just afraid of the drastic change to my life. Maybe I'm afraid to face the embarrassment of getting divorced 3 months after I just walked down the aisle. It's definitely possible, maybe even likely. We have a two year old happy boy together and right now I just can't take the fact that these may be the final months of my life being able to see him every day. When I see my wife playing with him and making him laugh, even with all the pain I'm in that she caused, I feel happy. And I don't know yet what that feeling means or what to do with it.

I'm in IC but have only been to a few sessions so far. From the advice I've received here and from my IC, I need to learn to let go of the outcome and just focus on how I'm feeling and figure out what I need. This shit is just so tough. Thank you all for doing what you can to provide me different perspectives. It means a lot.

Why do you think doing the 180 is abusive WorkingThroughIt?

It’s not abusive IMO.

Hi The1stWife. I poorly worded that passage, the 180 definitely doesn't sound abusive. What I more meant is that sort of disconnected behavior is what brought me here in the first place.

WTI137, what do you define as the pick-me dance? Has your wife ended her affair and is she still at the same company as the AP? Is she ambivalent about staying married to you?

I think more than anything, I had talked myself into the constant fighting, silent treatment and BS constantly plaguing our relationship as being normal where my wife saw it for what it really was.

From what I've read of your history in your previous post and in this one, it does sound like your relationship was extremely dysfunctional. But why is the fault for that dysfunction landing only on your shoulders? What responsibility has she taken for your toxic dynamic? If she thinks that you are primarily at fault for all your relationship problems, why did she stay with you? Furthermore, why did she choose to marry you, when she could've just as easily remained domestic partners and co-parents with you? How does she justify walking down the aisle with you even though she was cheating?

I'm not here to tell you whether you should stay or go or decide for you whether your relationship is worth saving. But before you commit to a decision to reconcile or divorce, you need to honestly assess whether your relationship has a foundation (other than your child) that makes it worth saving.

Imagine that your pre-affair marriage was a house. It had a shoddy roof, leaky pipes, faulty electricity, mold in the basement, and a crumbling foundation. But at the same time, it was in a nice neighborhood and you had a lot of great memories in the house. Your wife is frustrated with you because you can't agree about which repairs should be prioritized. Maybe she's mad that she wants a new kitchen but you are more concerned with the garage. The sensible solution would be to tell you that she can't stand living in this house anymore and that you need to either make significant investments to renovate or cut your losses and move out.

Instead, your wife chose to burn the house to the ground. She didn't care that you had only recently entered into a costly legal and financial agreement to invest in this house (marriage). She didn't care about whether you or you son would get hurt. She wasn't worried about ending up homeless, because she already booked a few nights in a luxury hotel down the road.

Now you're imagining building a brand new house on what's left of the foundation, but you haven't even dug yourself out of the rubble yet. You don't even know what it will cost you, whether she's even willing to and whether you can trust someone who you now know is capable of arson.

What would you do in this situation?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:57 PM, Tuesday, January 11th]

Dig myself out of the rubble, first and foremost. That's an excellent analogy.

I guess I define the pick-me dance as letting her know I'm going to commit to being a better husband and partner and asking her to give me a chance to show her that I'm capable of it. She has ended her affair (as far as I know I guess, but without putting surveillance up in her office, I can't actually know) but still works in the same office, though she has agreed she will need to leave her job to give us any reasonable chance at building a new marriage.