SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are not crazy in the sense that you're delusional, but you are deflecting the reality of the situation because you are in pain. I understand, you have been with your wife a long time. My wife and I got together when we were 16. We are now 46. She is the only woman I have ever been intimate with; I have only ever even kissed one girl before I met her. And here I am alongside all these other fine people, like you wishing this wasn't real. But it is.

You need to accept that your wife has not only been cheating on you your entire relationship from the sou d of it but possibly still is. The post back in January about sex, her keeping her shirt on and looking at you funny, trying to get it over with quick? That's a dead giveaway. She has demonstrated over and over she is willing to lie to any degree to keep the truth from you, so you are never going to get it from her no matter how you confront her about it. You're approaching this conversation from a place in your head about how you would feel or respond when confronted. Start approaching it from a place where you understand She is not going to give you any truth without undeniable evidence.

People in this thread have given you excellent advice on how to deal with this situation, if you want more proof for your own peace of mind or to confront her. Take it. This forum is full of special and amazing couples that have been shattered by this awful thing. You are not alone, either in that specialness or that pain. Do a DNA test, set up a VAR, keylog her computer, demand access to her phone without letting her wipe it, all the things people have told you.

Otherwise this will be your status quo for the rest of your life.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 7:57 PM, Monday, July 3rd]

I’m just reading through this thread now. Like most betrayed people, I don’t believe that I know the entire truth of my husband’s betrayals, and never will. Chamomile Tea’s post back on December 4th is amazingly on point, clear, blunt, and so very helpful. Coming Apart needs to read and reread that post…and so do I. The journey of healing is such a long and painful process, but not as painful as staying in limbo.
Thank you to all of the wonderful people on this site who share, suggest, and give of your time. You help so many, so much more than you know.

I don't believe her inside but it's like she can make me believe what she says no matter how crazy her story sounds.

Very gently, she can't make you believe anything. You decide to believe or not. You choose. You control your choice.

I think you have been lied to for so long that it’s easier to believe her and acquiesce than stand your ground.

I can tell you that my life had a very positive turn when I finally stood up to my H and refused to accept his lies and cheating behavior.

My H will deny this but I am certain he started his affair b/c he was angry with me. For once I was holding him accountable for something and he didn’t like it. Three weeks later - 💥- he meets the OW and the affair begins.

I can tell you I no longer get disrespected or lied to. He knows I will walk out the door in a nanosecond if I have to.

I used to think I was the luckiest person on earth that my H wanted to die d his life with me. Ha! Now I know he’s the luckiest person on earth that I choose to spend my life with him!!!

Ok
I have another update.
So today I discussed the rose again with my wife. I told her she needed to tell me the truth about who gave her the rose. I even told her I knew she was lieing and I knew who gave it to her. She insist that the cashier at the grocery store gave it to her. She said the cashier had a bag at the register with the roses in it and she gave her the rose as she was checking out. This is only one of the things that is driving me crazy. I mean is it possible the the grocery store (this grocery store has a floral section that sells various types of flowers by the way) possibly had some roses that were getting old and decided that instead of throwing them away they would give them out to the customers? In my head I can see this happening. It was in December and maybe they were not selling them before they began to loose their beauty. But also in my mind is the fact that the rose didn't look old at all. As a matter of fact the rose I found was a beautiful rose. A rose that looked like it came from a florist shop. The nice big roses they have compared to the ones you see at Walmart or other grocery stores. I didn't find any wrapping to possibly see where the rose came from. Another thing that is driving me crazy is if she got the rose from the girl why would she come home and throw the rose in the trash instead of putting it in a vase with water and keep it until it lost its beauty? This is and other things are driving me crazy. She says that is who gave it to her and got really upset because I asked her about it again. She told me that I wasn't going to ever let it go and no matter what she told me I would still accuse her of lieing. Am I the one that is crazy and accusing her of things she is being honest with me about or am I right in thinking she is lieing to me. It has gotten to the point that she is ready to leave and telling me that no matter what she does I will still accuse her of lieing. I don't want to run my wife of almost 29 years off because I am accusing her of things she hasn't done but I also don't want to live my life with someone who lies and cheats on me. I am so messed up right now I can not even begin to explain it. Someone please help me. I am about to loose it.

Have you thought about asking your WW to look at the story objectively?

What about framing like a movie plot. There's this movie where one spouse is cheating on the other. The cheating spouse has told the faithful spouse that the A is over. The faithful spouse is having trust issues due to all the deceit. One day, very close to the day when the cheating spouse said it's over, the faithful spouse looks in the garbage and sees a very nice rise, looking like it was new and came from a florist shop, wrapped up in the garbage. What would the faithful spouse think? When she says something about the grocery store, ask if that sounds reasonable.

FWIW, the grocery i around me don't give away the flowers. They get marked down.

Have you read about the sink cost fallacy? Maybe the A is a deal-breaker for you. I filed for D the week before our 34th anniversary. XWH didn't do the work to be a safe partner and I wasn't going to be treated like that.

I have another update. Starting in January my wife and I went to marriage counseling. She saw us both individually one time each before she started to see us both together for counseling. The two of us together met with her around 15 times. Half of those were 2 hour meetings at my request because when we met for only one hour it seemed like just when the meeting was starting to get to the point it was over and I would have to wait until the next week to pick up where we left off. The counselor listed to my concerns about not being able to trust my wife. We discussed all the things my wife has done in the past and I told her I didn't believe my wife was telling me the truth about them. I told her I thought my wife was lieing about how far things went with the other men. During all the hours of seeing the counselor my wife stood by what she has always told me and never admitted that she has kept anything else from me and told the counselor that she has told me everything that happened and told her there wasn't any other affairs or anything thing else that she has done that was inappropriate. She never changed anything that she has said to me over the years. I told the counselor that I had proof that she was lieing. I told the counselor that I was not going to tell what I knew because I wanted my wife to tell me herself without me telling her what I knew like the other times I told her then she had to admit to because she knew what I knew and could no longer deny it. What I knew was the rose I had found in the trash. Although I never did come straight out and ask her if anyone gave her a rose I would ask her several questions so she would not be able to know that I had found the rose in the trash. I would ask her several questions like have you been meeting up with anyone, have you received any gifts from anyone, have you been to anyone's house, have you has anyone been trying to get you to have another affair, have you been communicating with anyone through text or if she was communicating with anyone through any type of chat apps. Every time I ask her the questions one I always asked was has anyone gave you flowers or a flower? The answer to all the questions I would ask her was always no to all of them. I finally got frustrated and told the counselor that the meetings with her was a waste of my time and money at $120 an hour and told her I was done. The night I confronted my wife about the rose and showed it to her didn't go as I had expected. I explained this in my previous post but I want to explain in more detail. When I told her I knew at least one thing she was lieing about and she said she wasn't lieing I went and got the rose and showed it to her. She said she didn't know what I was talking about. I said I found it in the trash and she was the only person that could have put it there. That's when she first said the girl at the pharmacy gave it to her then when I said the pharmacy didn't even sell flowers she changed it to a girl at the grocery store gave it to her. She said she had to think about it to remember where she had actually gotten it. Then she got angry and said this is what you have been holding on to? And said she could not believe that is what I have been saying I had proof that she was lieing. I asked her why, when I had asked her on many occasions when asking her questions she always answered no when I asked her if anyone had given her flowers or a flower her answer was no. She said she was trying to think of any men who had given her flowers or a flower and said it never crossed her mind because a girl at the grocery store had given it to her. I told her bs because if I was asking her the question and she knew how important it was to me for her to be honest that she would have remembered the girl giving her the flower and she would have explained it at the time I was asking her. That is why I asked in my previous post if I was the one who was crazy and driving my wife away by accusing her of things she had not done. I brought it up again to her yesterday and told her I really knew who gave her the flower and knew she was lieing. She got very upset and said that no matter what she does I was always going to be accusing her of things and accusing her of lieing and that I was never going to trust her about anything and threatened to just get a divorce because she was tired of it. She even said she didn't want to answer any more questions I had about any of the past and said she didn't have to answer anymore of my questions. We got into a big fight and I told her that the things she had done to me in the past destroyed me. I told her I didn't trust her and it was her job to change that to have me trust her again. She said she was tired of me bringing up the past and she was done. I mean does anyone else call bs when she told me no when I asked her on several occasions if anyone had given her flowers and she said no, then when I show her the flower she told me she had forgotten about the girl giving her the flower and said that when I was asking her she was trying to think if any men had given her flowers and never thought about the girl giving it to her? She is either a better lier than I thought she was or I am the one with the problem and all this stuff in my head is about to run my wife off. I am just a mess.

It comes down to one of two things.

1) My gut feeling is correct and my wife is a lieing cheater who is never going to admit to anything and will continue to be a lieing cheater and will take her lies to the grave.

Or

2) My gut feeling is wrong and my wife has been honest with me and she doesn't have any skeletons in the closet and I am about to lose her because of my insecurities and constant accusations of her lieing and cheating.

I truly need anyones input and any direction on what to do and if anyone thinks my gut is about to destroy our marriage.

Firstly you need to stop confronting when every little thing triggers you. As much for you as for her.

Secondly, You need to sit her down, explain you are sorry you keep bringing up stuff and tell her you are going to do some individual therapy to get to the bottom of why you bring these things up, but ask her to please think about how some of her actions and words may cause you stress and that the marriage is important to you.

Third, you must put a GPS tracker and VAR in her car, or hire a P.I. otherwise you will continue this merry-go-round of accusations, and destroy your marriage, when you said yourself this may be trauma from the past manifesting itself today.

It's time you put all options into play rather than losing your mind like this.

As you said, she could be a master liar and manipulator or she could, in fact, be telling the truth, the only way to find out is by employing the above tactics and staying calm.

I wish you good luck.

I mean it is just to much. I truly do not trust her. There has just been so much that doesn't make any sense to me. I mean who is going to meet with someone in a parked car in a secluded area and make out with them to the point of feeling each other off until they both orgasm and not have sex? I know if I was single and had a beautiful lady in a parked car and we are making out feeling each other off until we both orgasm I am going to want to have sex and just go ahead and have sex with her. And this happened on at least two occasions that they admitted to with the affair that happened 13 years ago. Again if it was me and we were making out that hot and heavy we are going to be having sex until we both orgasm instead of feeling each other off. And like I said this happened twice that they admitted to. I could possibly believe it happening one time due to possibly one of them chickening out and not going all the way but they are trying to tell me they had the opportunity twice and both times it ended with a heavy make out session with them just feeling each other off until they both had an orgasm?
And how could she just forget about a girl giving her a rose?
Am I crazy and about to run my wife off or is my gut and logic of thinking correct?
I truly need help.
Please

You are not crazy but you are heading into mental health issues if you do not address this in IC. You need deep therapy, with a infidelity trauma specialist, and your wife knowing you are trying to help yourself will, hopefully, stave off her giving up on the marriage.

However.

People, not just me, have given you the potential tools to get answers now, as you think she is still up to something then employ VAR, GPS and P.I., follow her yourself but if you don't want to employ them then you either have to accept the fact youll never trust her and file for divorce yourself or hope you can bury this and stop the gut feelings rising.

The latter is unlikely to happen without deep therapy.

You're talking but not listening. The advice is simple. Quit confronting her. VAR and GPS. It really is that simple. (It may be hard to do but it will get you the answers you need.)

I have taken a lot of the advice that has given to me by all of you wonderful people that have taken their time to read my post and then extending their time even further to reply to my post with their sympathy, support, their personal experiences with what I am going through right now, educating me and helping me to understand how to look at what I am going through from different prospectives.

There are some things that I have taken advice on and done that I would rather not discuss but those are not the only things I have done.

I am so thankful for all the replies as I wrote earlier in this post.

Some of the replies I have received have been straight to the point and hit hard. They really made me do a lot of thinking about myself and how what many of you have been saying about me is true.

It has helped me to look at my wife differently. It has helped me to understand that I do have a problem. I reread this entire post. Every time I do I learn something else and see new things.

As I said I do have a problem.

Every time I reread the entire post I learn to accept more. It is like it is breaking me down a little at a time. Opening my eyes.

I will say this. It has been very hard for me to do. The hardest thing I have ever done to be honest. I hurts so bad. All of our time together has not been bad. I can not even begin to explain the Love that I have for my wife and what joy she once brought to my life. She has been my life. We have had so many good times. So many precious memories. We were the joy of each other's lives. I knew and felt in my heart that she Loved me as much as I Loved her. Unless I was so happy that I didn't see behind the shade. We were truly what I thought at the time best friends with unconditional Love for each other. I was truly living my dream life, enjoying my life with her and I believe she was enjoying her life with me as well. I could feel it. She would sit with me at night watching tv and she would just pet on me giving me attention or just snuggle herself up next to me and I would just hold her in my arms.It felt so good.
She would give me back rubs and scratch my back just to give me attention.
She had me by the arm all the time showering me with her Love. When we would go out we were inseparable. She would cling to me and I would strut her around like a big rooster with my chest stuck out walking tall and proud and everyone would look at us and admire what we had. We were a precious couple that people would talk about. It's those memories that are ripping me apart. I am doing something that I have never done before. I am starting to take this precious lady that has been Love of my life. Someone who I share so many countless good times and share such precious memories with, down off the pedestal. I am starting to realize things that I used to be totally blind to. It hurts. It hurts bad. I want back what I thought we had back then bad. To be in Love with someone and know that they Love me. Worry free about us. We were so in Love with each other. I have not felt that in so long and I want it back and miss it so much. I am beginning to look at her differently. She has truly warped me. She used to drink and when she did she would proceed to tell me what a worthless Dad I was to our daughter, what a lousy Husband I was to her, how I could not make her happy when we had sex, how I could not preform and how I could not satisfy her, how I did not add up to most men. Anything she could do to put me down she did it. Then the next day try to act like nothing was wrong and everything was just fine. When I would confront her on the things she said she would just say she didn't know what she was saying and didn't mean any of it and say she was sorry. I would forgive her but inside I felt she was saying how she truly felt about me when the alcohol was flowing through her veins. I had in my head that she had her a big bull stud on the side and there was nothing I could do with her in bed that could come close to what he was doing for her. But I would just convince myself that I was thinking crazy. I am starting to see that her Love is not what I thought it was. I starting to see how much I have dedicated myself to this marriage compared to her. I am starting to see what I am doing doing now to try to get back what we had compared to what she is doing.

I am reevaluating a lot of things different.

I feel like I am beginning to accept things differently than I used to. As I said it hurts so bad. I sincerely want to thank everyone for what they have done. I just ask that you have patience with me and ask that you will continue to help me and continue to educate me so I can try to make the right decisions so I can have a happy life. I am truly so messed up right now. I is tuff to accept what my eyes are starting to see. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you all again for your help.

[This message edited by FallingApartAtTheSeams at 3:14 PM, Friday, July 7th]

Hello Falling,

I am so sorry that you're going through this. You came to the right place. The people on this site are lifesavers. I have learned so much. This site has been like therapy to me and I am forever grateful. The best info I received and the posts that gave me the most hope were that of DaddyDom. He's a former WH who is now devoted to his wife, his family and it seems, to helping others on this site. Hearing the wayward's perspective and hearing his determination to be a better man gave me hope. It gave me hope that my WH could do the same. And I needed hope. Desperately.

As a BS, I can completely relate to what you're experiencing. I too believed I was in a fairy tale marriage, when really, I was being manipulated, gaslighted and cheated on repeatedly. I had him on the highest pedestal and when he got knocked off, it was heartbreaking and life changing.

I can only offer feedback based on my own experiences, here's what I've got:

* Trust your gut. Your brain wants to ignore it, not believe it, in hopes that things will change and that maybe your gut is wrong and overreacting. But that's wishful thinking. My gut was right about everything. Everything I was suspicious of turned out to be true. I was right all along and I hate myself for not trusting my feelings sooner.

* Cheaters are liars. Liars lie. To everyone. About anything and everything. But the person they lie to the most is themselves. The brain acrobatics that they go through to justify things to themselves is the craziest thing I've ever experienced. Realize that they lie to themselves for multiple reasons, but mostly it's about who they are as humans. No one wants to admit they're a liar and a cheater and a gaslighting manipulator. No one wants to see themselves as a monster who is destroying another human. So, they minimize what they're doing in their heads and convince themselves that there is some sort of twisted justification for their actions.

* Lie detector test. Schedule it, make her do it. her reaction will tell you a lot. Is she willingly going because she wants to make sure you know she's telling the truth OR does she get upset and defensive and very "how dare you not believe me?" I know they're not 100% accurate, but just making the appointment will force her to think differently. Her back will be up against the wall and *usually* that's the only time a cheater will tell the truth. You can talk with the polygraph examiner and come up with your own questions. I spent a lot of time on this because I didn't want there to be any gaps or loopholes that would allow my WH to wiggle his way out of the complete truth. He came clean to the polygraph examiner about a few things because he knew he couldn't pass.

* She's not telling you everything. They never do. I also highly doubt that she was honest with the therapist. My WH was not. It wasn't until after the lie detector test and everything came out that he finally came clean with his therapist.

* Stop believing what you WANT to believe and believe what your eyes see, what your gut feels and what your brain tells you is logical or illogical.

* It's never going to be the same again. It will never be "how it was". There will be a new normal.

Sending you best wishes.

OP, you seem to be very hung up on whether your wife had full vaginal intercourse with this other man, or whether they both "only" climaxed one another with their hands. You mentioned you’re a Christian. I’m concerned you can’t quite decide if your wife committed adultery or not.

From a Biblical perspective, I can assure you she has. Jesus outright endorsed divorce when "sexual immorality" occurs (translating the Greek word "porneia"). This word encompasses ANY sexual behavior outside of marriage and is NOT limited to vaginal intercourse. Even sexting, though of course that didn’t exist 2000 years ago, would certainly meet the definition of "porneia". In other words, you have 100% Biblical grounds to divorce. Your wife has repeatedly told you she’s ok with divorcing you.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you’re still so hung up on her. She’s clearly not into you during sex, she’s shown such profound disrespect for you, she cheated on you (at least once that she’s admitted to, and likely far more), she swore on everyone’s life and God’s holy Name she was telling the truth, only to be proved a liar, and now she’s offended that you’re thinking she’s lying again? Ok, yeah, you had some fun times together. I see nothing of the love you have for her reciprocated back to you - in fact quite the opposite.

Ever heard the latin phrase "In vino, veritas" ? It means the truth comes out of folks when they’ve been drinking. That time your drunk wife told you how you suck as a lover, husband, etc. - that’s what she truly believes. You ought never have summarily dismissed all that the next day when she said "haha - kidding!". So why is she still with you? Clearly, things are working for her. She has you as her meal ticket, spider-squisher, and co-parent, while she has God only knows how many studs on the side to satisfy her lusts.

You also made a major mistake not telling the OBS after you caught them. That wife not only deserved to know what was happening, but she also would have been your ally in ensuring this adulterous relationship was over. Think about this: how would you feel if you found out there were 10 other wives out there who discovered their husband’s sexcapades with your wife, but didn’t tell you? "Not their problem / none of their business"? Hardly. You’d rightly feel angry they withheld the truth from you. You were robbed of your agency to make informed decisions about your life. And this is what you have robbed the OBS of by your non-action.

So how about secretly inform that OBS now? Do NOT tell your wife you’re doing this. If she pipes up about it afterwards, you have proof they’re still communicating. If your wife says nothing, you’ve still (finally) done the right thing.

I just don’t know if you have it in you to get yourself out of this situation. Clarity could be had if you sat your wife down and said this:

- Your sexual betrayal shattered all my trust in you
- Your behavior since has raised legit questions in light of your adultery (and yes, it was adultery)
- For this marriage to continue I need an external verification of you telling the truth
- Therefore I need you to write a full timeline of ALL that happened with that married guy
- You have 3 days to complete it
- After that, I need you to take a polygraph that will ask you if you’re being fully truthful regarding this timeline
- You will also be asked if you’ve had any other sexual contact with that man or any other while married to me

I strongly suspect your wife will say FU to any and all of that, knowing she won’t pass. This way she can at least try and tell the world you calling her a constant liar caused the end of the marriage (which is why YOU should get out in front of that and tell everyone that while you TRIED to forgive her adultery, it became clear she’s hiding much more, and without honesty, there can be no marriage).

Now the BIG question is this: will you do this? If you don’t you’re just going to continue to suffer as you have been. At that point, you have yourself to blame for this. I pray you choose wisely.

@gr8ful
Just wanted to reply to you about your post. It hit hard but everything you said was the truth.
As far as me wanting to know if they had penetrating sex. I don't want to know to have an excuse for divorce. I want to know just because I want to know the truth. I feel like they both lied to me. I is something that has been eating me up from the inside since it happened. It is something that I want to be able to put to rest and never think of it again. I will never be able to do that unless I know that I have the truth.
I am actually starting to get unsung on her. There is just to much that is unanswered. Now it is to the point she is basically getting mad and shutting down when I start to ask her questions. I know she is still lieing about a lot of things. I can basically everything she tells me when she is answering my questions. I ask her the same question and she answers it close to the way she first answered it but something will be left out or out of order. When I question her about the difference she gets mad and tells me I remember every single detail. I tell her she should be able to answer the question the same way twice if she is telling the truth.
We are not getting along at all now.
As far as me not telling his wife. I know I made a mistake and I should have told her. I gave him my word that I would not tell his wife so I did what I said I would do. I feel really bad about it and yes I would be extremely upset if it was the other way around.I should have never made the deal but I was very selfish and thinking about what I needed. I was a terrible mistake. If I could only get some type of proof that the affair went further than what they told me or if my wife would admit I would tell her immediately. I have thought many times about doing what you said and get her a message anonymously.
He moved with her across the country not long after I found out.
As far as the drinking. Some of the things she has told me while she was drunk still makes me insecure to this day. I will say this though. She has not had any alcohol since December so that is one thing that I am proud of her for. I had enough and poured every drop I could find in the house down the drain and told her I would not tolerate any more in the house period. She basically quit cold turkey and did very well doing it. I was surprised she was able to do it so easily because she was a heavy drinker.

FallingApart

I’m sorry you are here and in pain.

From my perspective I feel like you are focused too much on what you don’t know, and not what you do know.

It’s understandable. And also painful when you can’t trust your partner and what she says.

But I want to tell you that it’s enough just to know what she and he have told you they DID do in that car. It’s painful enough. IT’s marriage shattering enough.

So I’d like to ask you to maybe focus on that for a while, and not where the rose came from or if they went further in the car.

Her rose story is hers to live with at this point. You can assume it came from a cheating partner, or it came from a store give away. Maybe down the road you’ll find out. Maybe you won’t.

And maybe they went further in that car. Maybe they didn’t. But what they did was enough. Whether it was his fingers or member inside her, both are really bad. Jacking him off is bad enough. Intercourse would be bad too. But the possibility of her not having done that doesn’t get her off the hook one bit.

So instead, I’d ask you to focus for a bit on what you DO know to be true.

And as part of that, I’d ask you To be honest about it with her. Tell her how you feel about it in the context that you’re pausing your investigation mode to focus on what she has admitted to and how it has hurt you.

I’m sure you have told her something like this before, but if you haven’t gone to this extent, I urge you to this time.

Here’s the type of thing I would say. Customize as you see fit and if it doesn’t resonate with you, feel free to move on…

I’m going to stop focusing for a while on what I dont know. You are the only one who knows what is true or not. And you have to live with the fact that you are or are not telling the truth to the person you vowed to love honor cherish and protect. The dishonesty, cheating and shady behavior you have lived by have made it impossible for you to be believed.

Between you and your therapist you can decide if you can handle holding on to what is true or not and if you feel if I deserve to know it or not.

But I want you to know, the things you have admitted are true, have broken my heart. I so loved you. I had such great pride that you were my partner. But the things you have done and said have destroyed that feeling for me. You put on a great show to the world, but I know what you are capable of, and those things have slowly destroyed me from the inside.

I dont know that you care. When you get drunk, the things you say are so biting that they can never be forgotten. And the way you avoid trying to support my pain are no where near what they need to be in purser to help me heal from it.

First and foremost I need to feel desire from you. I need to feel you truly do want me as your partner in life and that you crave being with me. I’m at a disadvantage being your husband. I do t look like the shiny new thing walking down the street any more. You need to show me that you care enough that you don’t want to lose me, and more importantly, that I’m more than enough for you the rest of your life.

And that leads me to the next, you need to find a way to make me feel safe. That I can feel sure you are not gonna chase the next hard cock that walks by. That it’s mine you want and not his, or his or his. You need to figure out how to do that. You need to show me that you want to work hard to figure out a way to do that.

And lastly you need to show me you actually care about how you hurt me. How you made me feel less than every other guy out there. You consistently cheated on me before and after our wedding day. You are the person who has hurt me the most in this world. How can that be. You should be the one I turn to when I am in pain and not the one who pains me the most. I need to know that that hurts you more than it does me.

Either you show me that is the case or we should probably find a way to amicably end what I guess has been a charade of a relationship.

So I’m realizing what I do know is more damaging than what I don’t. The sad truth is if you would truly be honest with me about everything and then take to heart what I have asked for above, we might actually have a chance to build something new and maybe real and better. But honestly I do t believe you have it in you.

You have never valued me above those who treat you like shit and a piece of meat. That’s how you have made me feel…. Less than. I’m hoping you care enough to make that change. I won’t wait around very long to see if you can change my mind on that.

But I’m gonna stop banging my head against the wall on the questions of if his Dick was ever inside you or if he or another cheating partner gave you that rose. You can hold those secrets for yourself. I hope they keep you warm at night knowing that I don’t have the answers. But I’m relinquishing that pain to you. I dont deserve having to feel it any more. And it’s coming quite clear you don’t deserve me in the same way.

If you have something to say back, probably best you write it down. Our conversations are become way too difficult to be meaningful. I wish you well in deciding what you want for your life going forward. I’ll be here doing the same. "

I do t know if that helps any my friend. If it were me, I’d probably write it to her. Talking seems to be getting you no where.

I truly hope you can take a break from obsessing over the unanswered questions. As I said, what you do know is damning enough. Focus on yourself for a while. Say your piece, speak your truth, and then begin to move on until she show’s indication that she’s in it with you instead of against you.

I wish you well…

[This message edited by Stevesn at 5:06 PM, Saturday, July 8th]

So FAATS: what’s your plan? It’s either (1) ACT by following some or all of the advice we’ve given or (2) sit and stew and watch your marriage fall apart anyway.

It’s really that simple. If you continue on your current course without action, your WW will make the decision for you.

I am sorry you are struggling so much. Personally, I do think you are truly obsessing over the rose. It can be interpreted as a bit suspicious, so you aren't completely making that up in your mind, but there are other explanations that make sense too, including what your wife told you. Without more data, you can't use that one fact and consider it as anything evenly remotely close to definitive evidence of an affair.

My wife has thrown out a flower like this before because it was given to her with no meaning and a single flower randomly given, sitting alone in a vase, just isn't her thing. I remember asking about why she would throw a healthy flower away and she explained it. It's plausible your wife did the same. And think about this, if she is in an affair and her AP gave her the rose she could have kept it on display and told you the story about the grocer i stead. Or she could have kept it at work. If she was given it by a person she cared for she might not have wanted to throw it away. But she chucked it out. So lots of ways to interpret, none definitive.

Your wife has stuck to her story from 13 years ago like superglue. You made an error telling her what the other guy said but still, she has stuck to it hard. That does not mean she told you the truth but it does mean you are super unlikely to get a different answer unless you use the polygraph method. Then you would know if she is telling the truth or not. Short of that, I can't see another method to discern the truth there after all this time.

You are alienating your wife at this point so what do you have to lose by backing off and then trying the VAR, GPS tracker and/or polygraph strategies?

I have made so many errors during this marriage. One of the previous post said I screwed up telling her what he told me. That was one of the mistakes I regret most. I truly didn't know what I was doing. I was in such shock and anger from just talking to that piece o s and hearing just what he told me sent me in orbit with me grabbing him and throwing him up against the vehicle before I realized I was really about to pulverize this in the parking lot where we had met, at which point I told him he was damn lucky that I had a daughter to raise and a few other warnings before shaking and releasing him then getting in my truck to leave. So I was both in shock and in pre stage rage when I confronted my wife for the 2nd time. Then to listen to her and watch her lie right to my face with ease and sounding so convincing. The main reason I don't believe them is because I think about what they both to me and I just don't see how it is possible. I mean like I said before. Not that I would do it but if I was the one who had been talking and texting her all day saying who knows what then meeting her at the planned secluded location and I have her in the car and we are making out hot and heavy leading into both of us feeling each other off, there is no way I would have stopped going all the way and having sex. I mean how is it possible? Why would anyone do that? You have met up, making out, and have the opportunity, you are hot because of how far the making has come, you are basically right there, along with yourself and hot with her, and I am supposed to believe they just stopped one step away from the sex and just finished each other off using hands. It is almost impossible for me to believe that. And this happened 2 times! If by chance I made it through the first session without having sex, the second planned session with the same private setting same making out until again the pants are open and she has me and I have my hands on her there is no way I am just going to stop again. No way I mean what is the point of taking the time to plan everything just to meet a play with each other? Especially after seeing her place her hand on the Bible and swearing and lieing to my face the way she did.
She is very convincing. When she started having a drinking problem and getting drunk frequently I started to see that she indeed had to people in her. I didn't and don't drink so I was sober. I saw the sweet beautiful woman that I married other side come out. It was like she had a demon in her or something. I guess they don't call it spirits for nothing. She was pure hell on wheels with an attitude. She was crazy and violent just like what she grew up in where I was always thinking it's not if something was going to go down it was when is it going to go down. You had to be out full alert at all times waiting. It was total chaos. She would also say horrific things to me. Really bad. I would sometimes ask her things about her infidelity while she was in a rage. I once told her after all I had done for her and as good as I have always been to her she owed it to me to be honest with me and her response to me was not her telling me that she had been honest and she had told me everything, it was her responding to me that she didn't owe me anything and didn't have to tell me anything. She was evil. Then the next day she would act like nothing ever happened. I would question her about things she had said and she would just say she didn't mean anything she said.
I am on the fence right now and troubled about where we are at now with me trying to talk to her more about the affair and the rose and other things I have accused her of lying about. It is to the point where she is crying, telling me she is sick of talking about the past and doesn't want to talk about it anymore, getting upset and mad telling me she hasn't lied about anything, taking her rings off and telling me she is done and she is going to move out as soon as she can find somewhere to stay and get a divorce so I will not have to worry about her every second of the day wondering what she has lied about or where she had been all day. Is she serious? Is she really telling me the truth about everything? Is she trying to play me to see what I do or if I try to stop her or see if I just stop talking to her about any of the lies I suspect her of. I is hard for me to choose. I am a mess and I really need help and advice if anyone has any.
Thank you all