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Skins said:

Yeah it might not be the ideal relationship anymore but she was more than happy being OM's side piece slut so at least she is now my slut.

From nicenomore:

But if he wants this, why not let him enjoy the experience, and anything else he can with her, then make his decision? It’s the least she could do for him and she is willing...

Does this sound healthy to you NNM? You don't think this sounds like punishment?

[This message edited by sassylee at 10:19 PM, February 12th (Monday)]

It sounds very unhealthy.

Two damaged people who continue to hurt and damage themselves and each other, and possibly others they bring into their bed.

I don’t think anyone wants to see their spouse as a slut- but it is what happens unfortunately. I’m fairly certain his wife understands that- but I can’t attest to whether or not skins wants to R or not, that’s his call. All I am saying is that he wants this, and she wants to give it to him. Seems like it would be harder for skins to not have this happen than to have it happen. I said different strokes for different folks, and I meant that, but here thebdynamic is obviously different, and if skins wants this to consider R and so does his wife, I won’t be the one to shoot it down. I have learned when to not overstep my suggestions, but I also won’t knock the reasons why he wants it.. and as far punishment, I doubt this is really punishment when you factor in 4 years of humiliating deceit. That is punishment, these are probably more along the lines of consequences of a changed marriage...she could walk any time, but she wants to try and make him happy. If he wants it, where’s the harm? Again, only my opinion. If he can sleep at night without feeling immoral, and I totally respect those who couldn’t, I’m not sure I have any place to judge him is all

And edit to say, I don’t believe he is hurting himself, that was done by his wife. Right now he is figuring out his next steps, and his wife is happy to oblige. Healthy? Nah hasn’t been since the first day she cheated. Healing? I’d say you have to ask skins whether he thinks this is helping heal his damaged esteem, ego and pride... but not my place to say.

For me, I don’t regret the threesome, because my wife wanted to do it for me, it didn’t hurt her. What did hurt her was sleeping with the OBS. I meant it as an attack on her OM, but missed the fact that it was also an attack on my ex wife. By the OBS and I do regret the hurt that caused her.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:37 PM, February 12th (Monday)]

If you treat your wife like a slut, and she sees herself as a slut...don’t be surprised if she continues to act like one within and outside of the marriage. A wayward spouse needs to build their self esteem in order to become a safe partner. If they continue to believe all they’ll ever be is a sex blowup doll, then thats what she’ll be....and blow up dolls don’t care about fidelity. They just perform.

We’ve had WW’s post about their spouses hitting them - and they defend their spouses actions because they deserve it. So the husband beats her and she puts up with it because she doesn’t feel she has a voice after cheating. If they both think its working...would you shoot that down?

Both parties need to work toward healing after dday. If healing comes at the degradation of another - then I would not consider that healing.

For me, I don’t regret the threesome, because my wife wanted to do it for me, it didn’t hurt her. What did hurt her was sleeping with the OBS. I meant it as an attack on her OM, but missed the fact that it was also an attack on my ex wife. By the OBS and I do regret the hurt that caused her.

Really? If you regretted it so badly, then why didn't you offer her a threesome too, with another man?

Really think about my question before you answer it. Think about what kinds of boundaries you had, and what boundaries you lacked. Which of them were healthy for you and for your exW? Which of them only benefitted one of you? Why would you want to continue in such an unhealthy direction, where only one of you - be it her or yourself - was "benefitting"? (and I use quotes because I don't consider unhealthy choices to benefit anyone)

Also - have you done your own work as a wayward?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:57 PM, February 12th (Monday)]

physical violence against women, is not acceptable, period. Consensual sex is incomparable to domestic violence and rape,and doing so devalues the trauma real rape and violence victims endure. The slut comment- whether you want to believe it or not, not a single BS wants to think of their wife as a slut. But it is often what happens. I HATED that I saw her like that, but being one for another man made it so for me. The luster was gone, and the only way I could have sex with her was to objectify her in mind after dday. They say one mans trash is another mans treasure, but for some, unfortunately it never becomes that, myself and many included. In fact one of the reasons I divorced is because I’m the end I knew I could never be the loving and caring man to her again, and eventually even I wanted her to be happy. I HATED that infidelity made me see her like this. Of course, maybe I would have tried harder at R if we had decades of life together, finances and kids etc. I totally respect BS who try and work through it all because they have so much more invested and people depending on them. But we were young and innocent, so I thought.

I regretted hurting her, and still do. But I’ll never come to the point of accepting that what I did was just as much of a betrayal as what she did. Say I haven’t done the work, Chastise me, throw me on the fire for my infidelity. But Here is the thing. sure I was broken and used poor coping mechanisms- difference was, her justications Weren’t because of me, mine WERE because of her. She was poisoned in life, and her failings were forced on me. She was broken, but I wasn’t until she shattered me. She couldn’t resent me because I didn’t fuck her over, but she sure as shit fucked me over. And at the least, I told her In no uncertain terms what I was doing, I gave her the option to get out, she wanted to stay, but then got mad at me for following through. At the LEAST I was honest to her, didn’t lie or hide anything. I at least gave her the courtesy of truth. And since I was the betrayed, and it was a deal breaker for me, I didn’t need to offer her the threesome. Had I cheated first, my answer would be entirely different and YES if she needed that to feel ok for my destruction of our marriage, I’d have offered it.

I benefitted from the threesome more than she did, but she benefitted in that I probably wouldn’t have even thought twice about R had she not. And in the end, does the WS not owe some form of amends to try and make the BS happy? As I said, had I brought infidelity into my marriage, I certainly would have understood that requests difficult for me, I would honor because i brought the shitstorm upon us. She recognized that.

Besides that one episode in my life, I’d never felt the inkling prior to cheat, not after we divorced. So I’d say that while not perfect, my boundaries are pretty good.

After dday I didn’t hit my wife, verbally abuse her for Years etc etc. like I see many posters talk about. Just told her my terms, and that R was to be considered later. She offered the threesome after I told her how unfair it was, and I threw the idea out there. i took her up on it, and yeah, It certainly did help with the imbalance feeling, and the emasculation. not the hurt though. What did help the hurt was hurting the OM. Again don’t regret that, but do regret how it hurt my ex W much later on. I am not perfect, but I’m no monster. Just was a young guy trying to deal with the hurts and humiliation and insult of his wife’s betrayal. Some things I did right, and others I did wrong.

But in he end we did divorce, because I realized it was a dealbreaker. So while it was for me, I was also effectively setting her free to find someone who could be that awesome guy for her, because it couldn’t be me anymore. I hated knowing that.

If I could go back, I’d do a lot of things over. But despite being a wayward, I don’t think I’ll ever fee like my indescretion comes close to hers. And having a threesome was great for me as a BS. But every case of infidelity is different, and I obviously cede that what works for some doesn’t work for others. In skins case, it seems like he wants it, and His wife wants to give to him. I’m not going to object based on my anecdotal experience. That’s all I’m saying.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 12:38 AM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

sure I was broken and used poor coping mechanisms

This is what you can control. And it's the reason why I asked the questions I did.

Your pain is valid. It will always be valid.

Your choices afterwards determine whether you grow healthier or unhealthier. They are worth examining. If you feel you have examined them enough, then there it is. If not, though, if it struck you that you made unhealthy choices, then look at them and own them. Not to wallow in self-blame - rather, so that you can make healthier ones in the future.

My concern is this: you say you were broken and using poor coping mechanisms. Do you mean sleeping with the OBS after the threesome? Instead of stopping after the threesome, you kept going. Why? Do you think that others who would engage in a threesome might have that same outcome, where they wouldn't stop afterward?

I guess what I'm wondering is, if you see that your coping mechanisms weren't healthy, then why advocate for others to use them too?

As always - take what you need from my questions, and leave the rest.

Guys only use you for sex!!!! It seems like many WW never get that concept. They believe all of the lies and fake feelings to get treated like a porn star for someone who's invested nothing into them and will leave them the instant they are caught.

This is my fundamental point in many threads throughout my posting history. It's the part that I can't understand about female A's. And it's the part that reading this board doesn't really expose because I truly believe most of the men posting here aren't the "typical" AP.

But, yes, most of the time, guys are only using women for sex. In an A, that "most of the time" becomes "nearly all of the time". I just don't get how so many women miss that; you are signing up to be an unpaid porn star; well, paid, but your payment comes in lies.

I feel like we all tiptoe around this over and over, talk about the "feelings" and "love", when (in my eyes), most guys know what you're saying to be true.

And the damaging thing about this, to relate it to the thread, we all know (BH's) that are wives are happy to be "sluts" for another man. Because, they were, even if there wasn't anything "new" sexually (but there almost always is).

Why is this concept so hard for many WW to understand when it's so plainly obvious to me (and I think many men)? Of course a man in an A is using you as a sex toy, that was his reason for doing this to begin with. What do you expect, him to change mid-A and decide he actually had an A to find love? Because, me, and the men I know; we don't operate that way.

This thread seems to have drifted away from the original post by Walloped. I don't see the suggestion about a threesome whether suggested by the BS or WS as an evening out as being very evening out. My WW had an LTA with a COW. Lots of fucking all over the province and at his place. How could a contrived encounter compare to that. To even out I'd have to have an LTA with all of the same elements. And how would paying for sex compare to my WW freely and willingly going to his place to fuck for nothing.

I do agree that given my WW provided sexual gratification to her AP I should expect the same. There shouldn't be any holdback. She willingly jumped at every opportunity in every venue. I don't want to fuck in the back of a van on the side of a road or on a viewing platform in a bird sanctuary or in a machine shed or demand sex at 5 in the am if she didn't put out the night before as she was supposed to. No, I would prefer it in an appealing bedroom or a high end hotel with love, commitment and mutual satisfaction. Not like she did with him.

I also agree with the last post by Rideitout. WW's AP was physically attractive and "nice". He treated her like a fuck toy. She was an on call screw. A free call girl on demand. Never any satisfaction for her. He never spent any money on her in 4 years. He didn't even provide a beverage, not even a glass of water, when she went to his place for nooners and quickies. The routine is that they fuck then he leaves her room or she leaves his place. No cuddling, snuggling, nothing. But he didn't use her just for fucking. Bullshit.

Learning that your once precious wife and mother of your kids debased herself with not only having an affair but to take it to wanton levels is devastating.

There is no evening of the scales in such a situation. A WW deciding to finally give you a BJ to completion or to give up the booty does not come close to evening things.

To me the 1st time swallowing and anal is VERY intimate. It's almost like giving her virginity. The intimacy difference from doing it the 1st time vs doing it later with her BH is like the difference of opening a brand new Iphone from apple store vs a used 3 year old iphone from Craigslist.

As for threesomes, most BHs would think LESS of their wife if she offered a threesome as some kind of offering. It means she doesn't get it.

We want what she can't do. We want her UNFUCKED. So since she can't do that, it's best to leave.

[This message edited by Jsmart at 6:42 AM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

There is no evening of the scales in such a situation. A WW deciding to finally give you a BJ to completion or to give up the booty does not come close to evening things.

Correct, because the implication of a wayward husband or a wayward wife now suddenly willing to try new things implies that they are performed out of duty or duress. It's a little rape-y to me.

Part of proper reconciliation is the betrayed coming to terms that their spouse, for a variety of reasons, was willing to do new things for their lovers. Addressing the root cause of this is how to handle it. Admittedly, the root cause may be a dealbreaker for many.

There just isn't any way around things being dealbreakers. I drive drunk and I kill someone, it's a consequence. I didn't sit there in the parking lot and run calculations. I did it. But I know deep down the consequences. Same with certain aspects of the affair.

Getting back to the question at hand, the sexual aspect is probably a small percentage of the recovery. The betrayal and subsequent transference of emotions is. Sex is just a cherry on top.

"Why is this concept so hard for many WW to understand when it's so plainly obvious to me (and I think many men)? Of course a man in an A is using you as a sex toy, that was his reason for doing this to begin with. What do you expect, him to change mid-A and decide he actually had an A to find love? Because, me, and the men I know; we don't operate that way."

um, because women aren't men? you are really painting a very unflattering picture of men here. using your logic, why get married then? why not go from one sex object to the next? if fairness/justice is your game, and your rage at not being able to have someone new like your wife did, why get married if someone new is all that?

i'm guessing the WW offers up sexual things because she wants to keep the attention of the AP. to make her do those things with you to stay in the marriage, something she's never offered and something she probably doesn't want to do, is punishment. i'm not understanding the concept of wanting to do something sexual with someone who is not on board with it but is doing it because they have to. is that pleasurable sex for the BS?

if she did it with her AP but doesn't want to with you (but feels like she has to) doesn't that really say something to the hurting BS? why stay?

"Part of proper reconciliation is the betrayed coming to terms that their spouse, for a variety of reasons, was willing to do new things for their lovers. Addressing the root cause of this is how to handle it. Admittedly, the root cause may be a dealbreaker for many."

exactly!! but, many are saying that if they got the sex the AP did then it's all good. they're skirting the issue. your wife did something with AP that she wouldn't or didn't with you. stare it in the face.

[This message edited by sewardak at 8:13 AM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

I'm not even close to considering R. I'm still in recovery mode and the sex is helping me heal. That was the biggest issue for me to deal with so now I'm owning that part of our M. She understands completely and isn't doing anything she doesn't want to do and is in fact enjoying herself much more. OM never cared about her needs or pleasing her. I at least give her 2+ orgasms each time because I know how to give her pleasure. I'm just making sure I get what I want now. I never used to care about that before and only wanted to make love. We still do that sometimes but I really wanted some new experiences especially after what I found out she did with OM.

She insists sex was never an issue for us she just craved the attention the way he made her feel . How the hell do women not understand it's all completely fake? They throw everything away (marriage, family, house and career) for fake feelings and to be an on call sex toy for the AP who doesn't give a fuck about them at all.

It's pathetic really.

um, because women aren't men? you are really painting a very unflattering picture of men here. using your logic, why get married then? why not go from one sex object to the next? if fairness/justice is your game, and your rage at not being able to have someone new like your wife did, why get married if someone new is all that?

Because I am one, and I know how I operate. And I see how other men I know well operate. Are some different? I'm sure they are. But are those men the ones likely to be in an A? I sincerely doubt it.

I never said someone new was "all that". And I don't think that either; it has nothing to do with "all that" and everything to do with "more". A's for men, in general, are about getting more sex. It's not about how much better the AP is, in fact, it's probably the opposite; it's simply "who will say yes".

. How the hell do women not understand it's all completely fake? They throw everything away (marriage, family, house and career) for fake feelings and to be an on call sex toy for the AP who doesn't give a fuck about them at all.

I have no idea. I really don't. If sex isn't your goal, you're almost certainly not going to get it from an A. And very few women want to be an "on call sex toy", so it takes a lot of "fake" to get them to move into that role. A lot of men DO want to be or have an on call sex toy, that's why we do it (in at least some instances).

I was reading a story on here about someone who had a RA by joining a hookup site on d-day, reaching out to the guy, then sleeping with him the same day. And that guy probably still looks back on that sex and thinks "Wow, that was awesome". This is who a lot of men are, if we could sit around and have women call us up for sex endlessly, we would. How long do you think it would have taken for a man to find that RA, and what does that tell you about sex drives and desire between the sexes? But, here's the important thing, that's who a lot of men; especially those who are willing to cheat. Why women would expect otherwise, I just don't understand. But I suspect that's because I'm a man, and I just can't fathom someone falling for the BS that many of us spew, especially in an A.

"Because I am one, and I know how I operate."

but that's the point. Women do not.

Oh please, women know how men "operate". They've been told their entire lives by parents and society to protect themselves from men who are after one thing and one thing only.

Hell, I told my WW that she used sex as a weapon against me by intentionally withholding. You know what she told me? All women do that because they use sex to get what they want!

Unbelievable! I guess I don't understand how women operate.

I suspect that most of us women who have been...less virtuous...in our lives know that's how men operate and often operate that same way ourselves. It's usually pretty transparent. Guy compliments the crap out of you to try and get laid, you see right through it and it's kinda fun and if he's hot, you let him think he's talking you into it if that's how he wants to see it. It's the casual sex dance. It's only really messed up when it's used on more naive women to make them think that he wants more or for the purpose of cheating. Though my first marriage was to a ONS guy...turned out we really liked each other as people too.

my WW that she used sex as a weapon against me by intentionally withholding. You know what she told me? All women do that because they use sex to get what they want!

The operative words here, skins21, is "my WW". Your WW is, sorry to say, a hot mess. And, she isn't the spokesperson for all womenkind.

eta: to change word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:17 AM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

but that's the point. Women do not.

Which is why I take the time to post on topics like this, because, I think, in many cases, you are right, they just don't understand. But look at the facts of a typical A. What is REALLY going to happen?

If you want to have a lot of sex, if you want to have anal sex, if you want to have someone orgasm on your face/mouth/ring, if you want to have sex in public, if you want to have sex with 2 people in a day.. Then an A might be for you. Because all these things are very likely to happen, they happen so much in A's that we all kind of just expect to hear "my W had anal sex with the AP but not me". Because this is the reality of an A. Now, think about it, what does that list sound like to you? To me, it sounds like a male sexual fantasy; it's all the thing that guys most want from women without all the things that they don't really care about. And if you, as a woman, also value those things, then you'll get what you want out of an A. But if you don't..

How the hell do women not understand it's all completely fake?

I'll go back to this post, because it's dead on; I think this all the time. Because everything else you're likely to get from an A, it's all fake. Fake emotions, fake promises, fake "dreams of the future". It's all fake. The sex is real; but if you don't value that, then.. What the heck are you doing??

Oh please, women know how men "operate". They've been told their entire lives by parents and society to protect themselves from men who are after one thing and one thing only.

While I tend to agree with you, it does seem that's a whole lot of women seem to forget (if they really do know). Because there are legions of heartbroken WW's here who "lost it all" when the H left and the AP dropped them cold. Which, if you know how men operate, you know where you stand as an AP, as you know you're a sex toy to him and nothing more. So why all the anguish when he moves on? And I see a whole lot of men on here who are very different from the men I know in my personal life, men who are deeply upset about what they've done. That's not my experience at all in my RL, men who have A's aren't even a little bit remorseful about it to me, they boast about it and trade pictures.

I just think we draw a completely inaccurate vision of the male (and perhaps female) AP here. Maybe there are a ton of predatory/ultra high drive females out there, but I've never met one. And maybe there really are a bunch of devoted men who are sexually satisfied with their monthly marital sex who just slip up and have an A because of their feelings, not because of their sex drive. But I've never met one (outside of this board anyway).

Yes, she has lots of issues. I wasn't aware of many of them until after the affair. I never really understood or asked about her early childhood or FOO issues.

If we don't end up making it I'm going to thoroughly vet anyone I become intimate with in the future. If they have had sex before 18, had more than 5 sexual partners or come from a broken family I won't be giving them a second date. Those are just huge red flags that I was unaware of in my naive romantic youth. I see much more clearly now and will be extremely picky about finding a really good woman.