SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why not stop before it turns into the A?

Why would we?

I’m not trying to be flippant, but it sounds like you’re asking why we have an A in the first place? Before starting the A we think we are getting something out of the relationship. Sex, ego kibbles, validation, attention, and so on. There are no consequences in our minds and we either compartmentalize it or ignore our vows and personal values (if we have any). We are not thinking about our spouse, just ourselves, so it’s totally selfish thinking.

If the rational part of our brain sat us down and told us that by doing this we will lose our marriage, family, job, health, self respect, and that we’d cause so much pain and heartache, then we maybe would stop. But I think it’s more likely that we’d just rationalize it all away and say “not me.” Because the desire for the thing we’re in the A for to begin with is so strong that it pushes all other normal thoughts away and focuses only on that part.

That’s why I don’t really take offense when you call WS’s “monsters” or “sub-human creatures.” Because in some ways that’s what I was in order for me to think that way.

Question for Ws spouse!

Married 45 year he had an infidelity with sister In-law 40 yrs ago in our home. I caught him sitting on loveseat holding covers up! Lied for 40 years said he was patting her butt and he admitted it Oct 2019.

First Affair with my social friend 38 years ago Dday was May 2019 last Dday dec5th 2019. We were separated got back together lied when asked if he sleep with anyone prior.

He said he got a Guilty conscience ws thinking of me felt shame and lost his hard and she asked if he wanted to stop he said yes.

Second affair 6 years later he got laid off went out of town to work wirh brother . I asked him not too Go didn't trust his brother.

He came back with crabs spent Weekend with homeless girl says he could‘nt get it up tried several times. he came clean on this one.

I’m davistated, triggers, dreams. I can’t think of anything over the last 4 decades that aren’t tainted and bring me severe pain,crying. feel like I’ve lived in prison no choices. No future at 62. I know how to communicate I can’t do marriage counciling. I can’t relive the past. I’m in trauma therapy and ptsd.

Question for Ws?

My husband wants to know What he can Do to fix this?

I have to be honest, Nolife. It's not that he doesn't know what to do. He's already been told that over in Wayward, and ten minutes in the Healing Library would give him all kinds of specific resources. The problem is that by "fix this," he means he wants to know how to get you to rugsweep. We can't and won't help him with that.

I'm so sorry for your pain.

Any WS's break NC? How did it impact you and your relationship with your BS? Did you become distant, pick fights, etc? Did you realize breaking NC was affecting you and your BS? Did it depend upon how far along you were in "doing the work"? Did your BS suspect contact due to your behavior and bring it up to you to talk about? Thanks.

For those WS who were “loving” to APs...

My Wh is not very loving toward me. He’s not into public displays of affection and he doesn’t write love notes or anything to me.

The two APs he’s been much mover lovey dovey towards. One he sent a famous poem to, and one he’d text very nice things to.

Why to them and not me? I’d love to have some of that lovey dovey stuff... I just figured he wasn’t into PDAs and mushy love stuff and left it at that. To find out he CAN do mushy love stuff ... is hurtful

Question for WS? I haven’t seen any circumstances like this one so I think it would be great IF others have been through this and can share..

Is there any Ws that Was separated from bs for a previous affair that got back together.

Then you lied to bs when asked if you had an another affair and continued that lie for years to your bs.

How did you continue to lie over the years?

How did you justify it In your mind.

How did you feel about the lieing over years.

How did you do it and what made you come clean?

What was your expectations of your betrayed spouses reactions.

Did you think of what it would do to the bs.

Did you think of the consequences of your actions.

How did you continue to act normal and love your bs and continue to have children, love your kids go on as if everything’s perfectly fine and nothing ever happened.

My husband had an infidelity at 40th year of marriage. We split 2 yrs later for 3 months then got back together. He lied when asked if he had affair. he lied for 38 years about that affair. Had another at 32 Nd year but came clean. So he continued to lie about the 38 yer even after the 32nd year. The 38 year lie killed me it imprisoned my choices, stole my life, my heart,my thoughts and dreams. I now don’t feel he ever wanted me back then. I don’t know what I ever did to deserve this. I’ve been in a lot of groups and I have yet to find another person who has experience what I have. I long to know I’m not the only one on earth to go through losing your entire life in the blink of an eye. I can’t explain what it feel like to wake up and wonder why you were put on this earth. Why you didn’t deserve a life and why your entire life is gone. I long to talk Ws and Bs who experienced what I’m young through but I just don’t think they exist.

[This message edited by Nolife at 7:59 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]

Dear WS,

You still didn't stop your A after Dday #3, which led to discovery of DDay #4 December 17 (same women but learned it was a PA and false R and False NC)

You continued your A and I later learned it was not just an EA like the previous women but also a PA.

You claim you love me and you always chose me but how can that be when you didn't do so until she blew your world up by calling me to tell all.

How could you be so lowdown as to sleep with OW on Dec. 5 and then me 6 hours later? You claim you were worried she would tell me so you just did what she wanted. That is a lie. You always lie.

But yet when OW calls and tells all because you don't have the balls to leave me even when I told you I wanted a divorce on December 10. (but wasn't even aware of what happened December 5) you claim that isn't what you want but yet were stringing her along as well.

OW calls on December 17 and I learn you told her the entire truth. She was privy to know about December 5 but I was not.

I hate you with every fiber of my soul but I am trying to make it through the holidays for my girls.

Did you pretend to find the Lord again yesterday December 22? Is that why you asked to go to church?

It is no coincidence that your new IC was sitting in the pew in front of us. Since you became an atheist you seemed to have lost your mind.

The Christian part of me prays for you. The other part of me can not stand you and what you did.

[This message edited by confused2007 at 11:34 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]

How did you continue to lie over the years?

How did you justify it In your mind.

How did you feel about the lieing over years.

How did you do it...

These are all the pivotal questions in my work as a reforming WW. The A was 30 years ago, but the lies didn't end until about this time last year.

There are so many emotions and mind tricks that go into lying to a spouse for that length of time. First and foremost, I had to subconsciously develop the ability to lie to myself. It's not like I got up every morning and thought, "Another day, another 24 hours of lying to BH." I sold myself on the idea that he knew the "important" things, and the rest was just painful detail that served no purpose to disclose. What is "important," of course, is defined by the WS and their needs/goals, not what the BS has every right to expect. Obviously, on some level, I knew damn well that everything was important; that's why I was hiding it. But (and this is the part that makes any normal person's head spin), I refused to face that importance, even within my own mind.

In my personal case, I told my BH (BF at the time) that I had slept with OM and performed/received oral sex. I did not tell him about how often that sexual contact had happened, and I made it sound like I got pressured/carried away instead of telling him about the planned and fully consensual night we spent together. I also admitted that we had exchanged ILYs, but I made it sound like I only responded from a sense of obligation. My rationalization was very reductive: PIV and ILY were the worst things I could have done, and I admitted that I did them, right out the gate. This is atypical of most TT, where the WS works up to admitting to the most damning acts. By focusing on the things I had admitted, I gave myself permission to omit the "lesser" acts. Somewhere inside, I knew how dishonest and unfair that was, but my ruthlessly self-interested side shut that voice right down.

...and what made you come clean?

The growing realization that rugsweeping wasn't going to cut it anymore. My BH didn't keep hammering questions at me for all those years. At first, he believed me. Why would I admit to sex and expressions of love, and then lie about other things? But over time, his own subconscious got louder and louder. He knows me, and he knew that my story didn't add up. My protestations that the sex was practically accidental didn't line up with my sense of emotional attachment and responsibility to OM after D-Day. I made it clear that I wasn't forced, but also said I was angry that OM had pushed for more than I meant to give. This was true of our last encounter, but not the first, and I presented the last as the only one. BH kept coming back around to the specifics of consent until I said that it wasn't rape, but part of me felt violated as if it was. After that, BH steered clear of asking additional questions because he felt he was intruding on a traumatic experience. I thought I was finally admitting a truth that BH wanted to hear, because he was very clear that he hated OM and wanted to blame him for everything. I hadn't wanted to process my anger at OM, because the while point of the A for me was that I was powerful and in charge. I resented BH for making me face that I wasn't as "in charge" as I thought, but I was relieved when it looked like the admission satisfied him and would allow us to rugsweep.

This dishonesty on my part had the effect of silencing BH in ways that I did not understand until recently. It was a huge gap in our understanding of each other, and entirely my fault. If I had been honest, he could not have come away thinking that my consent over the course of the A was less than wholehearted and enthusiastic. It was only in that final encounter that I was angry at being manipulated and pressured.

What was your expectations of your betrayed spouses reactions.

I thought he'd be angry, first and foremost. He was the one who suggested we be open to seeing other people, so I was fully under the impression that I was more invested in him than he was in me. I thought he'd be pissed off that I violated boundaries, and hurt, and that he might well dump me on the spot. I was not prepared for him to be utterly destroyed. I immediately started minimizing to walk back the consequences.

Did you think of what it would do to the bs.

Did you think of the consequences of your actions.

Not while it was happening, no. That was Future Girl's problem, and Present Girl didn't want to admit what I was doing, or I would have had to stop.

How did you continue to act normal and love your bs and continue to have children, love your kids go on as if everything’s perfectly fine and nothing ever happened.

By pretending that it didn't happen, or more accurately, that it happened in some parallel universe that was just for me. I acted like OM was an ex-boyfriend who preceded my relationship with BH, instead of my partner in betrayal. I also used my BH's own As as justification for sidestepping responsibility. He had lied to me, and was refusing to be accountable for what he did because what I did was so much worse. I used that as license to refuse to admit just how much worse it was, far worse than BH knew. I resented his retroactive free pass and wrote myself one of my own. I'm not sure exactly how aware I was that I was doing it, but it is crystal clear in retrospect.

Interesting response is there any male Ws spouses out there that can respond to my tread? I think honk I’m the only person with my circumstances.

I posted a thread in the Reconciliation Forum...but maybe it is better for me to post a question in here.

On Dday my H told me he had "feelings of love" for the adultery co-conspirator. He would always correct me when I said he was "in love" with her...he only admitted to having "feelings of love".

FIVE years later...we are doing well and happily in R. During a discussion recently...my H is now insisting that he NEVER had any type of "love" for the adultery co-conspirator. This is very confusing to me!!!

He had admitted a while back how he knew he ENJOYED being with her...although now he can't remember any instance where he actually remembers that. He just knows that there was a time when he enjoyed being with her. However...he is adamant that there was never a time when he LOVED her...even though he said he had "feelings of love" for her on Dday. IF he logically can know that he "enjoyed" being with the adultery co-conspirator...how can he logically say he never "loved" her? Does anyone relate?

As a BS I find the 'specialness' associated with sex died when I discovered his A. We are over two years out, I am able to enjoy sex to a certain degree without necessarily having mind movies, but I learnt to manage mind movies by fantasising about him being someone else. I now almost see sex as transactional, a means to satisfy an urge. That deep down intimate feeling/connection you have with your spouse, before you find out about the betrayal, is gone (because I suppose I know I have been replaced by someone else in our time frame) and I cannot see how you ever get that deep down connection back.

I read it time and time again about BS missing the specialness/uniqueness of being intimate with their WS. How do WS feel about their sex life with their BS post DDay, do you now miss the 'special' between you and your partner, or are you accepting sex is just sex, good, bad or indifferent because you knew when you crossed that line in the first place, and were prepared to trade what you had with your spouse for something new and exciting, your 'special' was already something you did not want. It seems on most occasions, and I assume heightened by the secrecy and sexual build up in between liaisons, that Affair Sex is intoxicating and is often described as monkey sex/porn star sex, (which creates a very vivid image in a BS mind). How has your 'special' connection changed for you in Reconciliation/Recovery?

Hi Want2BHappyAgain. Belated Merry Christmas!

I’m not sure if my answer will help, but I’m someone who loved their AP during my A but didn’t after DDay and don’t now. But my feelings were fleeting. They went away so fast once my husband shed light on my affair that the love I knew that I had for my AP was childish love that was totally self-centered and based on nothing real or of substance. I know what I felt when I was high on endorphins and ego kibbles during my A and I call it “love” because I don’t want to sugarcoat anything for my BH, but we are both aware of what that “love” really was. And now, looking back on those feelings and how I was with him, I feel the farthest thing from love. I feel repulsion and disgust (at both of us, but me more than him). It was teenage fantasy garbage and debasing and humiliating and I did it based on feelings that were as substantive as mist.

I don’t know your BH, but he enjoyed being with her. He must have, right? And that might have created feelings of closeness. That’s not love though. Real love, like you know, is based on so much more than sex and how the other person makes us feel about ourselves. It would have been natural for him to feel close to her. But that and love are very different things. I thought mine was love when I was in it and realized afterwards how wrong that term was. Looking back I can’t describe how icky it all makes me feel. I cringe when I even type the word “love” about my AP.

I’m going on and on as usual. Sorry. In short, speaking for myself, and maybe this applies to your BH too, right after DDay I would have said I loved my AP. Now, no way. I thought it was love then because I felt wonderful about myself and I convinced myself it must’ve been love because I didn’t want to be the type of person who had an A for meaningless sex (as if having an A for “Love” makes it okay ). But it wasn’t real. I enjoyed being with him. I was close to him. But it was also superficial and it was nothing next to what I had and still have with my husband. Not even close. Does that make sense?

I hope you were abale to have a meaningful and wonderful Christmas even with these thoughts swirling around in your head.

How do I get him to understand things when you have infidelity and lie for 40 year.s

Then separate for three months get back together lie about an affair for 4 decades and when was asked if you did to start with.

Then have another affair at 32 year but come clean but was busted when you brought something home.

He swears on his life and everyone else's he didn’t love the women or wasn't attracted to her she lied about me and was a social psycho lying ass friend and it happened once. he said looking back he realized she was out to hurt me through him back

Because he lied for 38 years about her I feel she was still in control of his life our life so it took him from us for 38 years!

Does that make since for me to feel that?

He say I was there with you and the kids were I wanted to be. I’ve never lived anyone but you.?

She destroyed our marriage our life. When I look back I was surviving on what ever attention he gave because of his guilt and shame I Feel.

I feel my children didn’t have him fully either Is this normal too!

Looking back wondering why was he so distant at times actually a lot of the time, Wondering what was wrong but no answers when asked.

I don’t know what I need To heal but a miracle would be awesome. Would welcome some Wm responses Too..

MrsWalloped...my sweet Niece...you sound so much like my H about how he feels he never loved the adultery co-conspirator. They were strangers who had a 9 1/2 week A. But I have heard of people who have fallen in love in a lot less time.

Thankfully...the google timeline showed me that he didn't even go to her house the whole week she was on her period. This was the last full week before he left her country...and they were probably never going to see each other again. IF he felt LOVE for her...I would think he would have spent as much time with her as he could. Instead...he only started going to be with her after she got off of her period.

I KNOW this. I see it on the google timeline. But it sure shocked me to hear him say those words after all of those years! Now that I have had a few days to think about things...I can understand where you and my H are coming from. Thank You!!!

Looking back, did you know deep down that your feelings for your affair partner were crazy or unrealistic? So many wandering spouses feel that they are in love, yet work on their current relationships. The tulmultuous road of recovery seems hard to justify when you have these intense feelings for something new...

Looking back, did you know deep down that your feelings for your affair partner were crazy or unrealistic?

No. I felt terribly guilty about the feelings, but I believed they were real. I didn't have a lot of experience with "new relationship energy," and I'm not sure OM had ever really had it, so we both were ill equipped for rational perspective.

By the time the A was waning, I had started to see the problematic aspects of OM through the NRE. At that point, though, my self-image was so wrapped up in the idea that he really loved me that I wasn't putting much thought into the question of whether I really loved him. I loved the way the A made me feel. I didn't consider the unpleasant possibility that we were both just empty ego kibble for each other.

Yes, the constant struggle with shame, anger, frustration, grief, and inadequacy on the one side -- vs being told you're absolutely perfect just the way you are on the other -- dooms a lot of reconciliations. Of course, a relationship built on that kind of lie is a foundation built on sand, but unfortunately it can take a while to wake up to that. By the time that happens, many WS have permanently burned the bridge back into their marriage.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 7:11 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]

I’m not sure how to start. I feel so embarrassed for being here. I have been married for almost 31 years and have known my h for almost 33 years. We lived together a year before we were married. My dday was in Sept.

My h told me that he cheated over 27 years ago and has never cheated again. He cheated with women that he knew prior to meeting me. He met these women in bars and went to a hotel or some place to have oral sex for money upon their first meeting. Supposedly, he never had intercourse ( I’m not sure that I believe him) with either of them, but did admit to performing oral sex on one of them twice but it was before he met me. I’m not sure that I believe that either.

It was oral sex only and he paid them. I don’t buy it. Once we got married he broke it off with one; however, he continued seeing the other one for a number of years after we got married. I asked him why he selected one over the another one and he said that “she was better at it”. Wow! I didn’t like the answer but I did feel that he was a least being truthful.

We have always had a decent sex life and he never talked about oral sex. Occasionally, he would give but it didn’t seem important to him to receive it. When I asked him why we never discussed it, his reply was that this wasn’t something he thought a wife should do. Is there anyone out there with this frame of mind? My reply was that we weren’t always married and he responded that he was developing a relationship with me and that he put me on pedestal. Does this sound like bs?

When asked how did it end and when did it end he doesn’t seem to remember. He says, that he knew that it was wrong and had to stop and he told her to never call him again. She would call him at work. During this time cell phones were not used as they are today. I am really struggling with not knowing the timeframe.

I appreciate any and all feedback.

I can’t understand how you can see someone for years and not develop a relationship/feelings for them, but he says that it was “only sex”. How is that possible? He also says that it wasn’t something he did often, but would occasionally reach out or sometimes she would call because she needed money.

He has told me parts that he remembers but when it comes to dates/times he isn’t able to recall. My h states that he is so embarrassed and has chosen to forget much of the information. Is there anyone that has a similar experience that can help me to better understand?

When I asked him why we never discussed it, his reply was that this wasn’t something he thought a wife should do. Is there anyone out there with this frame of mind? My reply was that we weren’t always married and he responded that he was developing a relationship with me and that he put me on pedestal. Does this sound like bs?

No, it sounds like a classic Madonna/whore complex. There are the things you want from bad girls and the things you do with good girls, and you keep "good" girls good so that they stay marriage material. Does that fit other attitudes you've seen from him? Is he (or was he at the time) someone who is more comfortable with traditional gender roles?

As insane as it sounds, I do not remember the details of ending things with OM. I don't remember anything about what I said, what he said, how long the conversation was, or even when it happened. I can narrow it down to within a few months, but only based on contemporary letters. Stranger still, those letters show that I visited my long distance BF (who later became my H) during the A, and neither of us remembers that visit. D-Day was less than two months later, so we must have fought about me looking him in the face and hiding such a huge betrayal. My H might not believe I could forget an event of that significance -- except that he forgot, too. And generally speaking, neither of us has a faulty memory; in fact, mine is photographic, and although the skill is waning with age, I used to be known for being able to recite entire conversations verbatim.

Could your WH be lying? Absolutely. Many WS "forget" inconvenient facts, even very recent ones. If your WH is like me, he forced himself to forget things he was lying about and/or details of which he was particularly ashamed. Then there are other things that just faded away with the passage of time. In other words, yes, he could also be telling the truth.

I'm so sorry. I live every day with a man who needs and deserves the full account of my A and will never get it because I hid it for so long. It's a terrible thing to do to someone who loves and trusts you.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:40 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

BraveSirRobin: thank you for taking time to respond. Yes my h is more comfortable with traditional roles.

As I look back there were several signs that I missed or chose to overlook. He is very attentive to my needs. He is a gentleman: open doors, provides, supportive which makes this even harder.

I asked if he cuddled with these women and he said no. He was there for one thing and one thing only and he wanted to get out as quick as possible. He says he never kissed them (hard to believe). Another issue that sticks in my mind is that he allowed one of them to spend the night before we met. He says, it was only once. I wouldn’t think that someone would allow a hooker to stay over, but maybe they do. When I called them “prostitutes”, my h looked puzzled and said that they were not prostitutes. I told him just because they don’t stand on the corner doesn’t mean they aren’t prostitutes.

My h said, that I think he treated them like he treats me and I do think that. It’s hard not to. He states that he did not. When were together he wants to satisfy me, with them it was all about him.

I can’t wait to feel better!

I'm not saying this excuses his cheating in any way, but it is possible he treated the experiences as purely transactional. Maybe he didn't see the women as prostitutes if it was all implied negotiation ("I like men who know how to be generous"/"here, go buy yourself something nice"). Regardless, each BJ was a product with a price tag on it. He comparison shopped and went with the best supplier. She reached out when she needed the business. If that was the sum of their relationship, kissing might not have been desired on either side.

Again, this is an analysis and not a defense of what he did. The coldness with which he disregarded your marriage is devastating regardless of his motivation. And if your gut is screaming at you that there had to be more, I'm certainly not going to tell you you're wrong. I'm just observing that he would not be the first man to compartmentalize sexual interactions in that way.