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Addressing things like that is not her style and really, it is what got us into this mess because over time things built up in her where she overflowed and cheated.

So if you just walk on those eggshells and keep her from "overflowing", you can prevent her from cheating again? Is this where your mind is going? Are you actually trying to live like this? She isn't "overflowing". She knows what she is doing. You say something that she doesn't want to hear and you get punished with emotional abuse. Silent treatment is emotional abuse. Undeserved emotional abuse. You may be the first person I've ever told to start acting like the victim you are. You are not responsible for your own abuse.

Good God Man ... quit making excuses for the inexcusable behavior of your WW, and get back to JFO, because you are most definitely NOT in R.

I really don't understand BH's like you. When I went through this I went from zero to PISSED OFF in 2 seconds after finding out what was causing her changes in behavior, and I didn't care if my rage pissed her off or not. You have a completely unremorseful WW, and from what I gather an accomplice D ... what exactly are you afraid of losing?

I can probably boil down my biggest issues into a few examples, and one of them is the way we do conflict. With me having said "you are unprincipled" and she got offended. I think a much better way to handle it is if she said "Ouch, that's name calling" or correct me and say "I was unprincipled but I'm working on it" or something.

No, no, no, no.....you are SO off the mark. The way she should have handled it was to say:

You are right, I was so very unprincipled, and I am so very sorry.

Do you not see that this was just a fact. Forget the bullshit feelings. She WAS unprincipled to do what she did. Why do you have such an aversion to accepting and owning that this is just a fact? It is not opinion or feelings or subjective barb throwing: she was very much unprincipled.

Why do you feel compelled to marginalize this? That is at the heart of what should be your focus. Why do you feel you need to reframe a truth in order to appease her unjust anger?

OP, what do you think about the advice you're getting on this thread?

You behaved in an unprincipled manner will be more effective than you are unprincipled.

I agree with grubs. NVC by Marshall Rosenberg helped us a lot with this.

Just to be clear, I’m not agreeing with her response. Is she in IC? I’m sorry if I missed that detail.

I am sorry you feel her cheating is your fault. You need professional help. You do not have to walk on egg shells around a cheater. She is the one who should be bending over backward for you. Please please get a backbone and stand up to her. Your feelings matter. Don't letter push you into the background and make it all about her feelings

IMO children are very judgemental. Your DD's primary role model failed her; and her father was betrayed.

I think it's fair to assume your wife gave the same self serving, blame shifting, it's was just one affair explanation (including God forgave me) to your daughter. Plus none of this would have happened if you ....

IMO your daughter (with no firm career plan to develop the skills to support herself) is moving away because she's angry at at your wife; and can't stand to watch you suffer.

I suggest that you and DD go to therapy.

I agree with grubs. NVC by Marshall Rosenberg helped us a lot with this.

Just to be clear, I’m not agreeing with her response. Is she in IC? I’m sorry if I missed that detail.

To be fair, if I behaved like a flaming asshole, no one is obligated to gently explain to me while holding my hand and soothing my feelings that I am a flaming asshole. Flaming assholes don't get to be tenderhearted when confronted with their behavior.

He didn't even call her anything. He was gentle, as far as I'm concerned. Gentle isn't going to be enough for her. Not speaking about it at all and trying to continuously win her affection will be what she wants.

your OM wasn't principled I mean he knew you were married and still pursued you, and the difficulty thinking of you as unprincipled to go for it."

She was unprincipled to go for it! Even more than him if he was single, as she knew she was married too.Your statement is 100% correct, even the wishy washy way you said it.

If she is upset that you almost implied that she was unprincipled for screwing a guy on vacation her head will blow up if you called what a lot people here probably think...Clue, it starts with "Cheating" and end with "__________" fill in the blank.

Do you have anger towards her or won't she allow that?

Reconciliation needs come from a place of the betrayed forgiving the betrayer and the betrayer understanding what their actions did to their spouse. I don't think you are there yet.

I hate to say it but it time for you to stand up for yourself, and what is left of the marriage and stop defending and accepting responsibility for her fucking a stranger while on vacation with your daughter. (sorry for the graphic description but you still need a couple 2x4s)

Hell, she is way beyond rug sweeping, she's using one of those Dyson power vacs.

As an update WW was upset because she thought I called her a name, she thought I said "you are unprincipled." I might have, and I don't mean to call names. She was being somewhat withdrawn Friday and then I was somewhat withdrawn Saturday, we made mention of the conflict but we had a busy Sunday and haven't really addressed it.

I can probably boil down my biggest issues into a few examples, and one of them is the way we do conflict. With me having said "you are unprincipled" and she got offended. I think a much better way to handle it is if she said "Ouch, that's name calling" or correct me and say "I was unprincipled but I'm working on it" or something. Addressing things like that is not her style and really, it is what got us into this mess because over time things built up in her where she overflowed and cheated.

I'll have to respond more when I have more time.

What about you, man!?

When are you going to overflow?

I can sense the internal pressure you are under to keep cool.

You *need* to let it out. Not just for you. For her. She doesn't see she has hurt you because you haven't even shown her that you are deeply wounded. Not in a way that connects.

Have you said, "Bullshit" to her yet? I'm telling you, you need to call bullshit on her. A wave of relief will come over you as you let your honest feelings about her out. You don't need to keep her happy. You might need to have some positive interactions to keep R going, but not around the A. Stop being her emotional shock absorber and happiness pump.

I don't think you screwed up. I DO think this is incredibly difficult. You gently conveyed some pretty crappy feelings. It is natural, I think, for her to feel shame around that.

My husband still cringes if I mention OW's name or anything A related.

That she asked how you were doing is a good sign to me.

Hang in there. Find a way to repair and reconnect. Make a new memory. Focus on now.

I was SO not doing well 9months out.

Unprincipled is the most mild yet factually accurate way you could’ve possibly described her.

If she can’t handle the ugly truth of her actions— even presented as politely and courteously as you expressed them— then any degree of honest communication is going to be impossible with her. She will punish you by withdrawing her affection any time you tell her something that makes her uncomfortable, just as she has always done.

Addressing things like that is not her style and really, it is what got us into this mess because over time things built up in her where she overflowed and cheated.

What the actual F?

Really? So it wasn't her style. It still isn't her style. When she gets mad at you she cheats on you. Is that the response you expect? Is that the response of a "Principled" person?

Yeah, I think you need to stop thinking she is a rational person. You don't get mad at someone then cheat on them.

OP, what do you think about the advice you're getting on this thread?

I'm happy to read it, I mean this is why I post so I can get responses and help process; I would love to sit and reply but I have very little time these weeks.

Someone said earlier in the thread that I must expect the responses that I get, and I do. What I really appreciate though is the perspective, because when I wrote that first message I thought of it as my mistake, for using too abrasive of language. But I have so much history and baggage going on...

First I can't rule out that I might be an asshole, or at least an asshole to her. I don't know how much I've shared but I've been on my heels a bit since the first MC. This is the one that thought I was an abuser. My perspective was that since the MC was a victim of spousal abuse, she transferred all that anger out on me in session. We used to start each session with the MC asking WW if I had been abusive since last session. Here is an example that WW brought up, but never confronted me on (and keep in mind this was after I had come up with a safe word she was to use if she was feeling abused):

WW brought up moving, new change of scenery, I told her "I feel exploited that you go off and have fling sex, and then want to buy a house. You know what? I'm going to quit my job on Monday. Good luck getting a mortgage." Childish? Yes. Abuse? I didn't think so. However, MC told me "That's it. If I hear about one more outburst I'm going to tell WW to kick you out and do a separation." This was maybe 10 weeks after d-day? I was so angry and hurt, I realized that I wasn't talking respectfully, but I didn't feel that I was given much allowance in the emotions from the adultery. But I shifted, no raised voice, no demands, calm requests.

The MC experience sucked for me. After I quit MC, WW went back to her. WW told me later that MC's advice was it was a huge red flag that I left therapy, that I will likely always be an abuser, and told WW that she consider leaving the marriage. WW has never heard a professional tell her otherwise. WW has acknowledged my changes though.

I got an IC and worked very hard on not being abusive or abrasive. I never felt that other than a few episodes it represented me but I leaned into it anyway. My approach now is probably an overreaction. So I've been thinking of switching gears with therapy again, only this time see if I'm a narcissist or something. Oh and help process this belly full of resentment that is as full and hard as a medicine ball by now.

Mickey:

Reconciliation needs come from a place of the betrayed forgiving the betrayer and the betrayer understanding what their actions did to their spouse. I don't think you are there yet.

I told WW that my journey on forgiveness has several steps. Right now I have an understanding and an empathy of what it must have felt like, how hopeless she must have felt, and so whatever level of forgiveness that is.

However, to progress in forgiveness, I have asked her for some very trivial (I think) requests, for example comfort breaks that I never really got. A comfort break is something a few times a week, I get a hug and some empathetic words. I suggested "I'm sorry and it won't happen again."

She has done them, but very sporadically. So it is hard to progress in this way for me.

First I can't rule out that I might be an asshole, or at least an asshole to her. I don't know how much I've shared but I've been on my heels a bit since the first MC. This is the one that thought I was an abuser. My perspective was that since the MC was a victim of spousal abuse, she transferred all that anger out on me in session. We used to start each session with the MC asking WW if I had been abusive since last session. Here is an example that WW brought up, but never confronted me on (and keep in mind this was after I had come up with a safe word she was to use if she was feeling abused):

If you are willing to consider that you might be an abusive asshole this easily, it is unlikely that you ACTUALLY are one. Abusers are not generally very introspective. You are introspective to no end. The MC is like many, a co-conspirator in the abuse perpetrated on you by your WW. One that has authority in your WW's mind and she is almost certainly giving undue weight to.

WW brought up moving, new change of scenery, I told her "I feel exploited that you go off and have fling sex, and then want to buy a house. You know what? I'm going to quit my job on Monday. Good luck getting a mortgage." Childish? Yes. Abuse? I didn't think so. However, MC told me "That's it. If I hear about one more outburst I'm going to tell WW to kick you out and do a separation." This was maybe 10 weeks after d-day? I was so angry and hurt, I realized that I wasn't talking respectfully, but I didn't feel that I was given much allowance in the emotions from the adultery. But I shifted, no raised voice, no demands, calm requests.

I think maybe you should take the MC up on that. But not the being kicked out. Ask your lawyer to draw up papers and file a legal separation. Less outburst, more serious. Make it clear this isn't some passing thought. You hold it in and let it out. To others it seems like you are having episodes. To you, you only get one honest moment per week!

The MC experience sucked for me. After I quit MC, WW went back to her. WW told me later that MC's advice was it was a huge red flag that I left therapy, that I will likely always be an abuser, and told WW that she consider leaving the marriage. WW has never heard a professional tell her otherwise. WW has acknowledged my changes though.

Just end it now. You are suffering a slow and painful death. Think about what she is having whispered into her ear right now. Every version of blame-shifting and unmet needs fallacy. I bet she spins quite the web of stories considering she is a cheater, and cheaters are good at lying.

I got an IC and worked very hard on not being abusive or abrasive. I never felt that other than a few episodes it represented me but I leaned into it anyway. My approach now is probably an overreaction. So I've been thinking of switching gears with therapy again, only this time see if I'm a narcissist or something. Oh and help process this belly full of resentment that is as full and hard as a medicine ball by now.

You are allowing yourself to be gaslit by your WW. You don't need to fix you man. You need to get out of your head. Maybe find someone in real life that can talk to you about this that isn't a therapist? Seriously, is there anyone out there on your side telling you that your wife cheating on you is some serious fucking bullshit and that you have been a stand up dude throughout this whole shit show? Who is doing that for you?

If your wife thought you were an asshole or an abuser, she would’ve been terrified to disclose her affair and she certainly wouldn’t have the audacity to ask you for a new car or a new house with a straight face.

In fact, I would say you’re too far to the other extreme of an asshole abuser… you are willing to set yourself on fire if she complains you gave her a cold glance.

I've read all your posts

To be completely honest, you are not the abuser in your marriage. Your wife is extremely abusive.

Read that again. And then again.

I'm still waiting to read something abusive that you've done.

I've read a few abusive things that she's done. I've read enough to be quite suspicious of where she might fall in the DSM-V and yet you're now wondering if you're a narcissist.

The only way that you're abusive is if everything you have written here has been complete lies in order to get sympathy. Is that the case?

HCSDI I just want to bang my head against a wall when you talk about how abusive you were.

There is only one abuser in this marriage and that is not you.

Do you have any family you could be with? Siblings? ParentS? On the subject of family - please expose to them all. You are abusive anyway so might as well do this one more abusive thing.

And separate - in your case somewhere away from her - for a week and clear your head. She went on a vacation and now it's your turn.

I don't think you are in reconciliation.