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Last night we talked more and she admitted to still loving the AP, and it feels like she wants to be with him. She also said many things to me about how bad of a husband I was...and how none of her friends told her to stay with me.

If you needed any evidence that you were wasting your time with R and MC, this is all you need. Your WW has NOT been putting in any work to fix the M that SHE broke with the A.

You need to start the hard 180 now. Start distancing yourself. It helps. Really. That means no more sleeping in the same bed, no unnecessary interactions. The only things you should discuss are your son or the separation/D.

I would also recommend that you try to mediate the D with your WW, as it can be a lot cheaper/easier if both parties are committed to that. I would also suggest that you hire an attorney to review anything before you sign it and also to protect your interests.

You need to start protecting yourself. Focus on your healing and don't worry about your WW or the M.

There is a chance your WW might start to make changes to show you she might earn an opportunity for R, but she has shown you nothing so far.

I agree with Tigersrule that this is the only sane thing you can do. The longer you do this the more damage you are allowing to yourself. Her decision to cheat had nothing at all to do with you. She is justifying it with strawman arguments.

Your only hope moving forward is to do exactly what Tiger is advising. It doesn't mean you couldn't stop the divorce or even have a relationship after a divorce. People have done that. But, it's gotta get back to a situation where both of you are fighting for the relationship, and she isn't. If she sees she can't go back and forth that will be helpful. It may not yield the result you would ultimately like, but the pick me dance doesn't work.

I do not think affairs are illogical. They are perfectly logical: the cheater wants to have me with someone and takes the necessary steps to accomplish this

I don't know if anyone addressed this or not, but they are very illogical.

It seems logical in the sense Stinger is addressing.

Until you face the consequences, what you did seemed logical to you probably. As Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". Being knocked out does not stop the plan from being a plan, but it shows that it is bad.

Wow. Your wife has been snowing you for almost 2 years.

You need to stop listening to ANYTHING she says. It's all bullshit.

She is rewriting the marital history to justify her crappie choices. Do not believe any of it.

Get an attorney. Do NOT go through mediation without meeting with an attorney and getting a very good understanding of what your options and her obligations are. As q physician im guessing she has a decent income and you absolutely deserve what is owed to you. Do not roll over. This is for the well being of yourself and your child.

Nothing you have or have not done caused her to cheat. Regardless or what she says.

Take care of yourself. Make sure you are being kind to yourself.

and how none of her friends told her to stay with me.

If she's in a group of gals who endorse female infidelity, then that's just more salt in the wound. Your WW seems hopelessly lost, but I'm only looking in from the outside. You're dealing with it every day.

You might check out this thread on the logical fallacies WS's use to justify their adultery. It might help clear your head a little to know you're not crazy:

https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/653367/logical-fallacies-from-ws-and-39-/?AP=1&HL=

Unfortunately it's also pretty well known that infidelity is rampant in the medical field. They're all bopping each other here and there. If you have a WS in the medical field who is deep in the fog and not at all remorseful, chances that she will continue this behavior are extremely high.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:29 AM, May 6th (Thursday)]

She kept saying "you won't be able to get over this, there will always be this undercurrent of hurt and anger".

You'll never forget about it. That's for damn sure. What does she mean "get over"? Usually that's just a request to rugsweep.

The undercurrent of hurt and anger will always be there if you do try to rugsweep though.

The issue isn’t if you can ever learn to live with what she did.

Be clear on this: Not a single person – man or woman – that has successfully reconciled with a wayward spouse has forgotten or is completely over the affair. You learn to live with that pain and remembrance and learn how to deal with it. Its impact on you lessens over time, but it is never forgotten.

I can envision an old couple sitting in their rockers late afternoon looking at each other. The former WS thinking “Thank God he/she didn’t leave me despite my stupidity in cheating” and the other “Thank God I gave this another chance despite his/her infidelity”.

The REAL issue IMHO is that if the above couple were you and your wife she would be thinking: “I miss and still love OM”. That can be reworded into “I settled for SleeplessinSTL”. That’s not really a good base for a marriage…

The key isn’t what was done, but rather what has been done since. Some reach that goal, others don’t. It’s IMMENSE work!

In some ways marriage can be seen as a rubber band that surrounds everything included in the marriage. In ideal conditions it’s a circle that defines what’s yours, the expectations and all that. It says where you (and she) can go, and it keeps things outside your marriage. When your wife sneaks off to have an affair she’s straining the rubber band to stretch outside it’s normal or expected area. You feel the pull and if you give way then it’s more like you accepting shes having an affair and not be willing to deal with it.

That’s OK… There are people that accept their spouses cheat but trust it’s just a fling and will be over. It’s not something we on this site are into, but it’s probably more common than we think.

However… If you don’t move there is a strain on the rubber band. If you start pulling her towards the center – towards where a marriage should be – then you need to pull in the opposite direction. That pressure could pull her back to the sweet-spot. The center. Or she could resist and the band snaps.

I think she’s resisting.

I think reconciling with someone that isn’t committed is not going to work.

I don’t think this automatically means divorce, but I do think you need to apply more pressure to the rubber band – despite the danger of it snapping.

“Wife. I love you too much to stand in the way of your happiness. It’s true that I might resent you forever for what has happened, but part of reconciling is dealing with that and I am willing to do that work. However – you tell me you love OM and pine for OM. I hate sharing and while that’s the case then at best I’m sharing you. I do not want you to see me as a compromise or your second-best option.

You are totally free to be with OM, work with OM, date OM… whatever. But not as my wife. I absolve you of any expectations I might have as a husband and you are free to do what you want.

It would be in good taste to be discreet until we can formalize the termination of our marriage, but our next step is to do so in accordance to the law.

This is not what I want, but it is what I need. I need to get out of infidelity and while OM is your love and you therefore can’t commit to us then this is the only way out for me. It is the least of evils. The best of several bad options.

If you want this marriage you can let me know, but the further along I go in getting out of infidelity the less inclined I will be to slow down or turn back."

Thanks folks been a while and it's been a rollercoaster... here is the latest.

Tuesday, 05/04 I came back home from taking our son to school. WW and I started talking and she said she wanted to proceed with divorce and that we could do mediation. We had a call with a mediator later that day. He emailed some paperwork to fill out to proceed to me.

Wednesday 05/05, we had a good discussion before bed, where she told me about a lot of her issues - child hood trauma at school with friends/teachers, why she doesn't trust people, why she feel she has to work so hard/get straight A's/etc so that hopefully people like/love her, and we were intimate.

Thursday 05/06, she said she had to think about Wednesday night and needed a few days

Sunday 05/09, after a good mother's day, she asked me about the mediation again and acted like that was the way we were going despite her saying she needed to think more after Wednesday. I was angry and went to sleep in the guest room.

Monday 05/10 we didn't say much.. she went to her office, I went to my mom's...I texted her that I would fill out the mediation paperwork. However when I saw it wanted a credit card and wanted WW's to be the one on it. So at 5pm when we were both home, I grabbed my laptop and told her we needed to talk before I filled out the paperwork.

With laptop in hand, I told her she needed to know how much pain she has put me through and continues to put me through (when she sees and talks to the affair partner) and I asked her how if she loves me, how can she keep hurting me? She said she 'can't help herself'. She started crying and then started talking about her options (stay with me, divorce/go to him,etc). She asked me to sit on the bed with her and kept reaching out to hold my hands.

I said we should call the AP together and she can end it...but she told me to call the AP and tell him to stay away from her or we would get a restraining order (and I added we would contact his employres HR - he's an executive there). I did that night. Previously WW would talk me out of calling him. She told me she couldn't talk with him, because he always pulls her back in. We talked a while longer and I had her write down what she was saying -- if the AP was doing something that seemed obsessive i would ask "does that seem normal". Not trying to lead her or anything.

Since then she has wondered if me calling him threating restraining order was too harsh - I told her no, because he hasnt respected the boundaries before. When she told him to not contact her, he still would, and wouldn't stop until she started responding. When she went to her retreat in Arizona in March, she told him about it and said not to go out there because she needed to be alone - he sent her flowers and other things to her room, and flew to Tuscon anyway. WW said she did not see him out there though.

I've also learned that the affair restarted in Feb/March/April and she was seeing him and they were physically intimate

The week after was good though... we were loving and had good family time with our son.

Then Monday 05/17, she has a call with a Psychologist and she tells me that the psychologist told her "she was responding to me being angry and placating/deescalating when I " (when I had the laptop ready to fill out the mediation paperwork). She says now everything she said and wrote last week wasn't her authentic self and she needed to think.

I went out that night and didn't come home until she was asleep... the next two nights took my son to friends/family and came home later and let her put him to bed, avoided talking to her. Then Thurs-Sun I stayed at a friends house.

Sunday I told her I'm still figuring things out and haven't initiated any more discussion with her. I've been sleeping in the guest room at home and only interacting around child / house / finance stuff. She is getting more distant from me though too (referred to me as "your dad" instead of "daddy" to our son).

The affair was hurtful.... the rollercoaster she has put me through the last few months is maddening and learning she restarted the affair cuts even deeper.

I can barely eat or sleep and this is basically all I can think about.

At this point I think I need to proceed with D (mediation) and be done with it to save my sanity.

Any advice?

[This message edited by sleeplessinSTL at 4:53 PM, May 25th (Tuesday)]

Two things you should understand by now.

You don’t need her permission for anything you do.

Put the hopium pipe down.

[This message edited by Marz at 5:18 PM, May 25th (Tuesday)]

Since then she has wondered if me calling him threating restraining order was too harsh - I told her no, because he hasnt respected the boundaries before. When she told him to not contact her, he still would, and wouldn't stop until she started responding. When she went to her retreat in Arizona in March, she told him about it and said not to go out there because she needed to be alone - he sent her flowers and other things to her room, and flew to Tuscon anyway. WW said she did not see him out there though.

I've also learned that the affair restarted in Feb/March/April and she was seeing him and they were physically intimate

The relentless AP that she always breaks down and makes contact with and was intimate with in the surrounding time frame DIDN'T meet up with her in AZ for a fuckfest? He flew there for no reason. To make sure the flowers got there alright. Something like this? Dude. Really?

The week after was good though... we were loving and had good family time with our son.

Good? Seems unlikely. Placid, maybe.

Then Monday 05/17, she has a call with a Psychologist and she tells me that the psychologist told her "she was responding to me being angry and placating/deescalating when I " (when I had the laptop ready to fill out the mediation paperwork). She says now everything she said and wrote last week wasn't her authentic self and she needed to think.

Her psychologist must be a big fan of having and eating cake. Because your WW is cake eating. She doesn't want to choose. The circling and cycling and bullshit means nothing. She wants to stay married and fuck her AP. So that's what she is doing. When you let her "think" she gets to do just that.

No more thinking. No more cake eating. No more deciding and walking shit back. Just file for D already.

These stories are so painful to read. What is the upside for you. She goes back to her plan B, then sneaks around on you for another few years. You really want to endure that kind of suffering?

Pack her bags and dump her on his doorstep. You need to have some self pride.

Then Monday 05/17, she has a call with a Psychologist and she tells me that the psychologist told her "she was responding to me being angry and placating/deescalating when I " (when I had the laptop ready to fill out the mediation paperwork). She says now everything she said and wrote last week wasn't her authentic self and she needed to think.

Well, later on after you an your attorney have taken as much as humanly possible from her in the divorce, your WW can thank her psychologist for ruining any possibility of R.

For right now though, I'd interview 3-6 of the best attorney practices in town. That way, she can't hire the ones you reject since they've already met with you. I'd hire a bulldog who would go after every last nickel that you're due. Remember, she's hooking up with another doctor so she'll be able to afford it. Don't pay any attention to her cries of poverty. Get all that you can.

Your alternative is to allow her to keep fucking the OM whenever she gets the urge and kissing her ass so she doesn't actually leave you for him. Now, maybe the OM will get tired of sharing and bow out. Maybe he'll meet someone more available.

Who knows? I couldn't love someone who kept hurting me like that anymore though. You're still young enough to meet someone else... or a whole bevy of someone else's while you're collecting your WW's alimony checks.

I think Marz said it for you in a very simple way.

At this point I think I need to proceed with D (mediation) and be done with it to save my sanity.

I concur. You have put a lot of effort in trying to save your M. As Marz said, you can't do it alone. That's why you aren't seeing results.

she told me to call the AP and tell him to stay away from her or we would get a restraining order

How is this supposed to help? Your WW has shown that SHE will not enforce those boundaries and the AP has already shown that HE doesn't respect them either. This also makes it easy for her to tell AP "it was all Sleepless, that's not what I wanted". Your WW had an opportunity to put you and the M first, and once again, she chose not to. IMO, the reasons for this are irrelevant. It means she is not a safe partner and is not committed to the M.

It is now time to stand up for yourself. Protect yourself and your child. File for D and do everything you can to protect your interests, continue to be a great father.

I absolutely hate it when a WS tells the BS what their IC said.

We don’t know the context in why the psychologist said what he said. Maybe it was a question rather than a statement, a way to understand her emotions rather than fact. Then she comes and tells you that Dr. Jung with all the framed diplomas on the wall says she was frightened. I seriously doubt her IC is telling her directly that this marriage is doomed and that her only path forwards is out of it via having an affair. Those are deductions she made from his words to justify her actions.

What I will say is this: If your wife was committed to the marriage then theoretically OM could be phoning her every minute, banging at your door and so on and it would be a nuisance rather than a threat. It’s a bit like alcoholism: Early in sobriety alcoholics are advised to have a dry house, stay away from bars and so on. That’s why it would be best if OM was not in your life. However – the further an alcoholic get’s in his sobriety he can meet friends at a bar and still not want to drink. He’s committed to his sobriety and has the tools to deal with it. Your wife isn’t committed to her sobriety from infidelity.

My two cents:

Already told you what I suggest your stance should be:

“Wife. I love you too much to stand in the way of your happiness. It’s true that I might resent you forever for what has happened, but part of reconciling is dealing with that and I am willing to do that work. However – you tell me you love OM and pine for OM. I hate sharing and while that’s the case then at best I’m sharing you. I do not want you to see me as a compromise or your second-best option.

You are totally free to be with OM, work with OM, date OM… whatever. But not as my wife. I absolve you of any expectations I might have as a husband and you are free to do what you want.

It would be in good taste to be discreet until we can formalize the termination of our marriage, but our next step is to do so in accordance to the law.

This is not what I want, but it is what I need. I need to get out of infidelity and while OM is your love and you therefore can’t commit to us then this is the only way out for me. It is the least of evils. The best of several bad options.

If you want this marriage you can let me know, but the further along I go in getting out of infidelity the less inclined I will be to slow down or turn back."

Only thing I will add is this:

Despite using a mediator then you should also have your own attorney. You consult with him before signing or agreeing formally to ANYTHING the mediator suggests. Not that you don’t trust the mediator, but your own attorney can give you peace of mind on if you are getting a fair deal. Since the attorney isn’t doing any paperwork or court appearances this can be worth it’s weight in gold.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Get an attorney.

Make sure you are protecting yourself.

My heart goes out to your W - she really is messed up. I have no idea when she is and is not her authentic self, because she has no idea when she's being authentic and when she isn't.

IOW, her infidelity is a symptom of her problem, not the problem itself. Changing from betrayer to good partner will be a long, hard road for her. I hope she does the work she needs to do to become and stay authentic.

My W & I have stuck with each other for decades as we fight our way past our demons. I stick with her in part because she's stuck with me, and I think I'm making the right choice. It's working for me. The pleasure far outweighs the pain.

But I don't care about your W being torn between to options. That's her problem. Your problem is that you're torn. You wrote:

At this point I think I need to proceed with D (mediation) and be done with it to save my sanity.

That's very powerful and very important.

It's possible both to stay with someone while they do the work of retrieving themself AND to be authentic and true to yourself. You can - that is, you have the strength to - take all she dishes out and stay true to yourself. If she does the work, she could become a real winner.

But that's asking a whole lot of yourself. Your best bet may very well be to D, even though you lover her, even though you want the best for her.

You're entitled to the best for yourself. That may mean cutting her loose. It's OK to say, 'No more. I've taken enough of this crap. I owe it to myself to minimize it.'

At this point, you have to choose between 1) going for D and 2) waiting to see if your W will do the necessary work - and taking hit after hit as she makes her decision, and if she does choose to do the work, you'll have to take more hits as she progresses.

You're the only one who can choose. If you keep a close watch on thoughts and feelings, I believe you'll know which way you want to go.

Once you know what you want, you're a good way towards making a good decision.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:50 AM, May 26th (Wednesday)]

The only way to truly fight for your marriage with a WW who is pining away for her AP is to move on from it. Find a path away from her infidelity. If she follows you then fine, but don’t expect it to happen. Stop cowtowing to her every whim. She has shown you she cannot be a faithful partner. Believe her.

So stop talking to her about it and work with an attorney and mediator to make the D process a reality.

She needs months and years of self analysis to change her ways and become a safe partner again for ANYONE. You cannot make her do that work. Only she can.

Good luck.

Thank you all for your help.... I can't tell you how much it means. ....you all must have a crystal ball

After doing the 180 w/ NC, staying at friends, being random with my schedule/being home and only talking about our house/son/etc, she gave me a "dissolution of marriage" notice last night. I'm talking to attorneys.

At this point I'm mostly angry...

Two weeks ago, when she recanted everything she said the week before and said it wasn't her authentic self, it sent me into a tailspin. I couldn't be around her and felt ill just seeing her or coming home. I played with my son, took him to my family at night, stayed at a friends a few nights for a week. Came home and started sleeping in the guest room and only talking about house/son stuff.

She says the first few days were hard but she felt better about herself when I wasn't around. and then cited me not being home, changing my phone background picture from her, as reasons for her wanting to move forward with divorce.

She also again said that she had the affair because of the issues in our marriage. This morning I told her "I own the issues in the marriage, but the affair is all on you". Her response was "well I don't agree". I'm chalking this up as blame shifting.

She says we can still do mediation, but at this point I'm going to talk to a few attorneys to figure out how I want to proceed. Missouri is a no fault state so the affair doesn't matter (much) in the D, but one attorney said we could do things that would make her uncomfortable / exert leverage.

So I guess you all can see me on the Divorce forum from now on... thank you all for you help. I really appreciate it.

[This message edited by sleeplessinSTL at 3:28 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

Her words aren't matching. She can't blame you for the A and then still want mediation. She is being narcissistic in her actions. Don't get caught unaware. Retain that attorney. Protect yourself and your kids.

She says the first few days were hard but she felt better about herself when I wasn't around. and then cited me not being home, changing my phone background picture from her, as reasons for her wanting to move forward with divorce.

It' a lot easier to not feel guilty when the person you stabbed in the back isn't around.