SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Didn't wear my ring to work today. I didn't think anyone would notice. I am certain I wouldn't notice if any of my employees stopped wearing their wedding rings. But of course, they did. They all tried to be subtle with their questions, so I just played dumb. I don't think I owe anyone an explanation right now.

I tried to generate a list of questions to send to WW. But I keep hitting a wall. I'm not sure what she could say right now that would make a difference. Anything she says about her thoughts/feelings during the affair is meaningless and ultimately irrelevant. Anything she says about her current feelings would probably be tainted by panic and desperation. Seems like a waste of time.

Indeed, anything she says will be draped in desperation.

Don't over analyze. If you want answers, ask. No such thing as wasting time here. Do what you need for you.

Go back and read my post on engineers and they way they think. You just did it.

So what if she comes from desperation? What might you expect? For her to be snarky?

So what if she will try to say whatever it takes. You have the smarts to figure that out. Maybe there is a gem in there that may help you.

If you don't ask, you don't get.

It can be nice to have answers to questions (and even nicer to have correct, verifiable answers), but only sustained, consistent action over long periods of time really matters.

A1 you don't have to answer this, but curious as to what questions you're considering asking WW to answer?

I tried to generate a list of questions to send to WW

I recall you were working with your IC on this. I'm guessing this came out of things you discussed in sessions. What was your IC's reasoning for suggesting this approach? I mean beyond the obvious...you have questions about your W's actions, you ask her, you get an answer. What outcome did the IC see for you in doing this?

I can see where her answers (really more her response) would be irrelevant to you right now. So whether the questions are fact based ("When did it start?") or open ended musings ("How could you?", "Who are you that you could do this us?", "Why?"), the response probably doesn't take you to a place of greater understanding.

I would recommend that you work on developing questions that you have. And you and your IC use those as a basis for discussion. Your IC can guide you on developing ways to cope with the thoughts that generated the questions.

Your questions are important for what they reveal about you. Her response would not be so important right now. Not pure engineering 101, but break the problem down into its smallest components, find the linkages. That is where I would find value in the questions that are in your mind. It takes advantage of your analytical, disciplined mind's way of processing information. Your IC then becomes your guide in having your right side brain coupled up with your left side brain to work through this shit storm.

It’s late so I will follow up tomorrow w some thoughts I have for meaningful questions to ask.

But in the meantime I thought I’d leave you with the best set of questions ever asked by an SI member, Walloped. He’s posted on your thread before. He or others may have pointed you to his thread already, and while not every question will relate to your situation, just reading it may spark ideas in your mind of what you really need to know.

Here is the page with the questions. I thank Walloped for being an strong example and inspiration to many SI betrayed.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=566988&AP=581&HL=38603

I haven’t looked at your thread for awhile. Last I was here, people were telling you what to do and think even though you were not presently in infidelity.

At this point all you have to do is process things and get in touch with how you want to spend your life. Has your WW made you happy since she got her head straight ? Stay with her. Feel you can do better? Drop her. Her breaking the marital covenant frees you to live and act selfishly. Whether your self-interest favors reconciliation or divorce is up to you.

What was your goal with separation?

Was it the first step to divorce?

Was it to get some distance to weigh your options?

Did the separation agreement deal with things like dating and relationships and expected fidelity?

Was the separation agreement comprehensive as in outlining final financial separation?

Could it be a divorce settlement with a couple of signatures?

A separation without a goal or purpose is only a slow, meandering path to divorce. Even worse it can be inaction that might lead to no resolution.

That ring? It’s only a ring. If you think you are headed for divorce then take it off. Wondering about it is like an amputee wondering whether to put on a shoe on the missing foot. If you have problems taking it off… well… that should tell you that you aren’t ready for divorce. If that’s the case – then once again: What is the goal with the separation?

[This message edited by Bigger at 2:38 AM, December 12th (Tuesday)]

You are absolutely right: Any answer you would get to your questions now would contain a lot of panic and desperation and could probably further complicate the situation on your side (and would probably give her hope as she will likely say things to soften the situation). In fact, you will probably never get the true answers in the rest of your life should you decide to get back with your WW. I am not saying these in favor of divorce, just looking at the situation from an objective perspective. The history cannot be unmade but working on yourself to rewire the relevant parts of your brain given the current information is probably necessary for R. Why I say this? Because you wrote in your first posts that she had already been a wonderful wife and a mom in the past 8-9 years since the passing of the OM. So, it is indeed mostly up to you to decide whether or not to R as she has already been a good wife recently. Asking more questions to her under the current circumstances will probably not provide a new understanding or new information that will change the course of the events right now. It might even be somewhat detrimental to your current progress since D-Day. However, again for the sake of sustaining an objective look, another perspective could be the following: filling up the blanks in the story and making new connections in the information you already have (and also for a consistency check to see if she is really being truthful and honest, keeping in mind that truth might actually be hurtful).

You are absolutely right: Any answer you would get to your questions now would contain a lot of panic and desperation and could probably further complicate the situation on your side

I don't think that is true in this case. She never would have given him the envelope otherwise.

She's a person who is 9 years out, and has behaved as if she was caught 9 years ago and given a second chance to be the spouse she should have been. Short of actually informing her husband, of course. But she was given a chance to un-$%^& her life and look inward and figure out she was a pretty horrific human being for a really long period of time.

A1, you should ask questions (if you want to). You are going to start recalling events from the past, and things she was doing at the time, and wanting to link up her life in your family with her private life. Now, you can go down this road as a form of torture for her (and it will be for you too) or you can walk it as just finding out the truth of your past. I recommend the second.

Sending strength!

I tried to generate a list of questions to send to WW. But I keep hitting a wall. I'm not sure what she could say right now that would make a difference. Anything she says about her thoughts/feelings during the affair is meaningless and ultimately irrelevant. Anything she says about her current feelings would probably be tainted by panic and desperation. Seems like a waste of time.

This is true. However you do deserve an answer to your questions and only she can answer them. These answers could help you process and heal. I would want to know if she visits the grave, not in the past because I am sure she did. But I would want to know if she visits the grave now. If not when was the last time. I would want to know does she look back at the affair and the affair partner with fondness or is she disgusted with what she did and is remorseful for ever doing it. I would want to know if she was planning on leaving me before he died. I would have so many questions. Her feelings of desperation would be insignificant compared to my need to know. Once I know my answers then I can gauge where I am in my life and want I want to do, divorce or reconciliation. But I can only speak for myself. You must do what is best for you.

Let us assume she looks back and says "she is disgusted by who she was" 9-10 years ago in response to A1's questions. Is that the truth? Maybe it is maybe not. What I meant to say in my previous post is that the answers A1 will get might not necessarily reflect the ultimate truth if that is what he seeks. It is likely her answers will be a mix. Even though the truth lying in the answers is questionable, if it will in some way provide relief (note that I am not saying "answers") to A1 regardless of the outcome (R or D) then it might be worthy. Again, none of us knows his WW better than him, he (A1) will be the one to judge the correctness of the answers he is getting and whether they make sense or not and the type of relief this could bring him. In the past 9 years, she has apparently worked on herself to be a worthy wife and this surfacing of the affair got her totally unguarded and that is where the panic and desperation comes from. I am sure she wants A1 back but it is A1 who will need to rewire himself to start living with the new information from the past regardless of her answers should he choose to R. Her answers might certainly have an impact (positive or negative) on this "rewiring process" not because she is assumed to be speaking the truth but how she is putting herself out there to make the M work.

[This message edited by burcm at 8:27 AM, December 12th (Tuesday)]

I think generating a list of questions would be really helpful. Sure her answers might just be self-serving at this time and not verifiable but the whole process of asking them and then discussing the answers will be helpful for you both I would think. She says that she understands what she's done but my guess is that once you give her a complete list of questions that show what bothers you, what nags at you, etc. She will see a more complete picture of the devastation she has caused you and the ramifications of all that she has done and that can't be a bad thing.

For me I would like to understand how present this guy was in my life. Did I ever meet him? Did you bring him around me and I wasn't even aware of it? How often was he around our daughters? I would try to think back to special occasions and dates and see just how much she pulled away from you and the family for him. That Valentines Day 10 years ago when her Mom got "sick" and she had to go visit. Was that true or did she actually spend it with the AP? That kind of thing. I'd also ask about other Affairs during our marriage and who else knew about this one. I think that creating this list and going through it will be painful but the act of having a list will keep the discussion with your W on track and less likely to go sideways with emotion and give you a baseline from which to decide what to do next.

For me I would like to understand how present this guy was in my life. Did I ever meet him? Did you bring him around me and I wasn't even aware of it? How often was he around our daughters?

Yeah, those are the sorts of questions I was thinking of.

Their past is your past too. There's a lot of digging to the truth of things that you will want to do. Lot's of factual questions to be asked, before you get to the ones that speak to feelings and such.

A1

You’re a strong man and I know you have a plan but I figure ideas from us can be helpful, even if it lets you figure out what you DON’T want to do.

If you are adamant that you want to D (I don’t know that you are) then maybe you don’t have to talk to her and give her any questions.

But if you are unsure, or even want to explore if R is even a possibility then you are going to have to start talking to her at some point, when you feel ready, of course.

It’s more about the process of communicating at first than having to believe anything she says. Infidelity and the process following it is not an exact science. Even if you poly’d Every question you can never be sure of what’s fully in her heart.

The only thing that would come close is to watch her actions over the next 30-40 or so years. The only question you need to answer for you is if you want to give her that chance. And you don’t have to rush to answer it.

However, starting the discussion is the only way to take that first step. And you can start it, then stop it, then start it again an unlimited number of times. It’s your prerogative depending on how you are feeling during the process.

With that said, here is a starting list of questions. Throw out the ones you don’t like. Throw them all out if you want.

Or use them and add some more from your mind and any others who have posted here in support of you.

Record the session when and if you do discuss, or at least take it slowly and write down her answers so you can review them if you need to later.

I am not sure the answers are all that important. On one level they are. As you said, there may not be anything she can say to answer some of them that will make a difference.

To me, the most important thing, if you are willing to explore whether R is possible or not, is to start having the communication. If you are not ready now, don’t do it right away, but know that you may never feel completely ready to take that first step. So you may have to give yourself a little push forward.

Thanks for listening.

Here are some questions to help start with....

- besides Michael have you ever sexually touched another man while we have been a couple

- kissed?

- had an intimate moment of any kind?

- have you had an emotional connection with another man besides the me or Michael since we started dating or were married

- are you having an affair now

- are you in love with Michael still

- how can you convince me you are telling the truth

- were you in love with him

- how do you see him now

- did u go to the funeral

- did u visit his grave

- when was the last time you visited the grave

- you wrote that I am stupid. I think you may be right as my wife had an affair for 9 years and I didn’t know, but tell me your thoughts on that

- do you still think I am ugly

- did you think I was ugly back then

- why did you write that

- I’m still the same person, how am I no longer ugly?

- you wrote that he was much better in bed. That I was bad at it. Tell me what you think about that

- you complained about my job. Are you ashamed of me

- did you ever go with him and our kids someplace other than the church day care program

- did I ever meet him

- what was going through your mind when You were standing with both of us

- what does he mean to you now

- what do you think of him as a person

- what did our vows mean to you when we married

- what do they mean to you now

- do you love me

- are you in love with me

- do you want to stay with me in this marriage

- why do you want to stay in this marriage

- how would you feel if i had been the one to do this

- what do you think I should do

- what do you hope I will do

- what steps do you think we should take moving forward

- how do you make me feel safe that this will never happen again

- how do I compete with a ghost

- if I said I was willing to work through this with you how do you envision our relationship going forward

- what do you think of yourself

- what do you think of me

A1, it occurs to me that you may already be unconsciously doing the exercise of imagining yourself single, and with being separated you are already living it to some degree. The house remodel is a great example I think, it appears you made that decision on your own. If that is correct, were you comfortable with that? Did you enjoy independently making those decisions to reclaim your house? Likewise, single women are showing an interest in you, perhaps it’s just friendly but maybe there are ulterior motives because you are a desirable partner. How would you feel about starting a new relationship in the future? If your WW never returned (for whatever reason) how would you live and how would you feel about it. Based on what you’ve described so far, it sounds like you’d make do. So continue that exercise the rest of the week and see how you feel at the end. Then, when the time comes, put yourself in the married and reconciling mindset and think about how that will feel. Would you be able to survive? How about thrive? I think that is the goal of all this.

AO - you stated

Anything she says about her thoughts/feelings during the affair is meaningless and ultimately irrelevant.

Have you explored the information she left you in the envelope?

There is no timeframe other than what you make. I agree that there isn't much she can say a this point. Maybe 4-6 months down the line you will have more perspective as to what is important to you and what to ask.

Of course leave your ring off without explanation. It's your business. It's a piece of metal, of less utility than a master bedroom really.

Take your time. So what if you drift towards divorce? Divorce is a legal thing really. Emotionally it's like tearing down the sheetrock.

Try not to overthink this. Sharman said it succinctly:

I don’t think you need to read into ‘how to act’ divorce. You are unilaterally supporting your children through this, driving a remodel and are making significant decisions solo.

That is basically what it means. There really isn’t a ‘pretend’ divorce mindset.

Do things you enjoy. Friends, exercise, learning, whatever. Being your own dude is all you can do.

If you are still looking for options then here's one that, IMO, would provide you with peace of mind and provide the best example for your daughters should they encounter a cheating husband in their future: Divorce amicably, treating your wife fairly. Live single for a while. Then date other women. Your ex could be one of them. It's like remodeling the master bedroom.

Again, though there is no timeline other than your own. You don't owe anything to anyone.

A1,

R is not a must. For some BS cheating is a dealbreaker.

This has nothing or o do with what others are doing or advising, not what other have achieve or willing to try to achieve. We all are diferent.

Once the emocional rollercoster starts to vanish, and the time apart from your WW gives you perspective, you will know if her A is a dealbreaker or not.

Just remember that even if decides to R , there are not guarranties of succes. Also R is not a promisse you may decide to R and in a years, month or week realized that you wanted an D, is OK.

Last thing, numbness is normal but try not to stock on this fase, in the long run may destrucción you.

Good luck