SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Having been around SI for 9+ years, I still don't have the ability to predict very far into the future. IMO, it's possible for your W to have finally gotten it, and it's possible that R may happen for you. Not likely, but possible.

Some thoughts ...

1) Even if your W has finally gotten it, it's fine for it to be too late for you to still want R. Don't force yourself into R if it IS too late. Rule 1: Know yourself.

2) By the same token, don't let powerful voices on SI keep you from choosing R. If your W really gets it and if you really still want R, go for it. Rule 2: Know yourself, and know your W (and I don't mean Biblically).

Use SI to help you get and stay in touch with reality. Let us blather about what you should do - just remember: you live your live; no one else here does. Ironically, I'm about to tell you what to do.

3) I suggest you NOT think of D as something your W chose or forced. I suggest that you think of yourself as choosing D based on the facts as you know them - choosing D as the best option for you (and your kid(s)), choosing D not as a way of getting back at your W but as your best way to a satisfying, rewarding life.

I think Neitzsche wrote of making a choice out of necessity, and I think that's wise.

4) I agree wholeheartedly that a written timeline is extremely useful. It's beyond extremely useful. It's something you both can rely on. I know in my case I thought my W had TT'ed me about 14 months after d-day. She pointed out it was in the TL - I just looked at the even differently then than 14 months previously. It saved me a lot of angst R had been going well, and I didn't want to stop it, but I had sworn not to accept any TT.

AND ... some people can't do time and sequence. Besides, your W will put the stuff she thinks is important into her TL. It is likely to help you if you ask a lot of questions about whatever she gives you. It may even be best to work together on the TL.

By that I mean: she names an event, you take notes, you ask for the info you want, together you write up a document that passes muster with both of you.

View the TL as a document that serves R, not as penance. Then, if it turns out to be stuff that makes R impossible for you, so be it. (I don't think anyone above has suggested the TL as penance, but it is occasionally suggested as such; hence my comment.)

Best of luck, bro. Whether you D or R, you can survive and thrive.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:25 PM, April 22nd (Wednesday)]

I don't agree with doing the timeline together. It is up to her to put the effort into doing a timeline as part of the effort to show she is fully engaged in creating an environment that R could be possible. It isn't punishment. It is her providing detailed information for you because she knows you need it to heal and trust again.

She can do the timeline. When it's provided you can ask for clarification or more detail and she can fill in the blanks for you. Probably the first attempt will be quite vague about things.

I never got a timeline from my WW. We had lots of conversations. Probably better described as interrogations because of the sluffing off and vagueness. A written timeline, of which I outlined what I needed from her in the timeline as a starting point, is required. Never got it. It would be a big job for an LTA with a COW and she was never up to it and therefore never up for attempting R (along with other things).

It's difficult to really understand these mood swings.

I'm growing in apathy towards my ex. I can go through most days without anger.

Right now I'm seething. It's ~1:30 AM. I'm trying to distract myself with games or music, but love songs keep coming on.

I used to love love songs. I was a huge sucker for Billy Joel. When someone would croon about feelings of love, passion, safety, security, I really identified with them.

Now they just rekindle my hate. Angry songs stoke my anger. Clubbing/dancing/whatever songs reinforce my loneliness and that makes me angry. I desperately want to move past this, but I can't move out during this whole coronavirus thing and I can't move on until I move out.

Fuuuuuuuuck.

I understand. My relationship with music took years to get back to anything close to what it was before her affair. Even now it has some lingering shifts. I certainly would have never expected to relate to "Solitary Man." During the years of false R and divorce I listened almost 100% to faith based music. I understand given your beliefs, this likely would not work for you, but for me it was lifesaving. Not that I didn't channel a few hate songs from time to time. I just knew I could not get stuck there.

M84, are you still with us?

How are you doing Incarnate?

I am still here.

I don't know what's been keeping me from updating or posting here. Shame? Disgust at myself?

Long story short (and yes I know it usually doesn't turn out to be very short at all....) is I've initiated the divorce process. Contacted my lawyer, understood the procedures and timelines and considerations involved. Never ever ever pictured myself as someone who would be in a broken marriage or someone who "has a divorce lawyer". But here we are.

Turns out (like I said I've been completely disconnected with how a divorce is like) the process will take many months. The back and forth between our lawyers. The negotiations and settlements of all ancillary matters. The court dates and finalising of all issues. It is such a long process. And when I was apprised of it all, my gut reaction was dread. I wished it would be something that could happen right away. It is as if a divorce would magically stop the pain. Or at least mitigate the pain.

I'm sure in a lot of ways it would. To have some form of closure. To be able to have refocus on rebuilding myself. I just want to stop caring. The truths, the lies, the manipulation, the sex, the betrayal... it all hurts more because of how much I care. I find myself concluding that the less I care, the less all of it will matter. Ergo if I manage to stop caring, stop loving, I would stop hurting.

It's been a month of home lockdown due to covid, with another month to go (till 1st June). So we are stuck at home for better or worst.

Serendipitously she has secured a new job, so has been serving her notice for her previous job at home away from the office. It's been 2 months since she last seen her AP. 3 months since last contact with her AP. But because of the truth trickling, it doesn't really matter.

To me, her affair was from Aug 2019 till her latest confession. It doesn't matter that she "ended" it in Jan. It doesn't matter that she was slightly still ambivalent in Feb. It doesn't matter that she "decided" or "chose" me.

Her lying, her manipulation, her relentless decision to protect herself from her actions and keep me in the dark throughout multiple D-days meant I have lost all basis of reality and truth, and I have lost all ability to trust her.

I've told her I am not going to delay or postpone or put the divorce process on hold. There is no pause button here.

She is begging me to hit the pause button. She says I will see. Just give her some time and I will see for myself. She is working on herself, she is working on change, she is going to be a safe person. She will work to become a responsible mother and a committed and caring wife who will learn how to love and respect and honour me. She says I just need to pause, let her prove it to me. Let me see it.

To paraphrase, isn't this just begging for a chance? A chance she doesn't deserve? Chances like these were given against my better judgement, and said chances were all squandered and pissed on by her.

She is giving me a complete timeline. She is vowing NC. She is including me in the process of ensuring NC. (She doesn't want any chance of relapse, apparently, and she says she wants us bad enough to do anything to make sure she doesn't fuck it up at all.) She is giving me access to her WhatsApp, her emails. She is vowing to stay accountable to her every movement as and when she resumes going back to work. She is giving me full autonomy over our finances. Giving transparency to every single cent she has spent and will spend.

I think she knows it is too little too late. I think it is too little too late, too.

I do love her. And if we split, it would be because she didn't love me. Until it was too late.

I've just been super busy coping with... post-dday rollercoasters. Trying not to binge eat. Trying not to lash out. Trying not to cry too much. Trying not to die.

Just surviving for now.

M84, We have all been there. Please don't be too hard on yourself. It does get better.

Someone mentioned triggering on dates in a different thread and I just checked, it has been eight years. No triggers, no regrets and life is good.

Hi M84,

I think this is my first comment to you, so let me say I’m sorry you are here. You said a couple of things that I’d like to follow up on.

She is begging me to hit the pause button. She says I will see. Just give her some time and I will see for myself. She is working on herself, she is working on change, she is going to be a safe person.

That’s nice of her... However, you are already giving her time because as you previously found out:

Turns out (like I said I've been completely disconnected with how a divorce is like) the process will take many months.

So, there is no need to pause. Keep her feet to the fire and see if she can change and if it is good enough for you. She could reach perfect remorse and it still may not be enough. You get to decide.

One other comment. You said:

She is giving me a complete timeline. She is vowing NC. She is including me in the process of ensuring NC. (She doesn't want any chance of relapse, apparently, and she says she wants us bad enough to do anything to make sure she doesn't fuck it up at all.) She is giving me access to her WhatsApp, her emails. She is vowing to stay accountable to her every movement as and when she resumes going back to work. She is giving me full autonomy over our finances. Giving transparency to every single cent she has spent and will spend.

Again, great. So good of her to do these things... That said, I’d encourage you to avoid becoming the Marriage Warden. You should have transparency and unfettered access to her devices should you want to look, but don’t make yourself crazy with it or allow it to give you a false sense of security (burner phones, secret email addresses, and other workarounds are commonly discovered in additional D days).

You are doing very well despite the shit storm you find yourself in. Focus on yourself and your son in the near to mid term.

It doesn't matter that she "decided" or "chose" me.

This "chose" idea really irritates me. My 1st IC said that to me. Once. I chose her when I asked her to marry me and she chose me when she said yes. Then we confirmed it in front of a church full of witnesses and God's presence.

I told my IC that she unchose me to commit adultery. She test drove a POS for 4 years and then decided she would choose me. Actually, she was never going to leave me. She liked our future. But lucky me. She test drives someone else a lot then decides she likes the old model better.

She will work to become a responsible mother and a committed and caring wife who will learn how to love and respect and honour me.

This is similar to the "chose" me. She said in front of a lot of witnesses that she loved you, respected you and honoured you. That was at your wedding ceremony. Now she's going to learn how? Kind of late isn't it.

Divorce does take time, Mach. Delays. Renegotiation. My bill turned out to be more than double the first estimate provided me.

What you do is up to you, Mach. Perhaps she, with lots of time and nose to the grindstone work, will truly change and be the wife you thought you had. Even if she does it's still up to you. As you indicated - too little, too late. It might be and it might not be. It is your decision.

I agree with the above: the inherent slow pace of a divorce proceeding will afford plenty of "pause".

But here is a thought to ponder. Time will pass and you will grow old. If you remain married, you will grow old together and presumably you won't cheat.

At some point, it is mostly likely that one of you will die first, leaving the other to spend some time alone. If you are the survivor, alone with your thoughts, and if between now and then she becomes the best wife ever, absolutely does everything possible to make you happy, will your thoughts:

(a) wish you had a do-over so you could have divorced her back in the day and found somebody else to love, without the stain of infidelity multiplied by long periods of flat-out dishonesty and trickle truth?

or

(b) be content that you remained married despite her 3/4 of a year of utterly despicable contempt toward you?

It doesn't matter that she was slightly still ambivalent in Feb. It doesn't matter that she "decided" or "chose" me.

She "chose" you? First, you weren't hers to choose. You were unwittingly married to a woman who was actively lying to you and cheating on you. If you had known the true facts, you would not have been available to "choose". Second, what sort of prize is it when a lying, cheating wife "chooses" you? "Yeah, I get to be married to a woman who cheats on me. What a treat!"

Furthermore, actions talk, words are BS. As between you and the AP, whom did she lie to, cheat on, sneak around behind, and whom did she carry on an emotional and sexual affair with? Her actions tell you whom she chose, and the fact that she is worried about a "relapse" tells you who her heart still chooses. I say this to BH's all the time: if you really love your WW, show her with your actions. Set her free to go to her lover.

She is including me in the process of ensuring NC. (She doesn't want any chance of relapse, apparently, and she says she wants us bad enough to do anything to make sure she doesn't fuck it up at all.) She is giving me access to her WhatsApp, her emails. She is vowing to stay accountable to her every movement as and when she resumes going back to work. She is giving me full autonomy over our finances. Giving transparency to every single cent she has spent and will spend.

She doesn't want any chance of relapse? There's a confidence booster. And she's suggesting that you live your life as a marriage cop, as if that will somehow be satisfying as you try to heal from the trauma she has caused.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:23 PM, April 30th (Thursday)]

M84, it sounds to me like your WW already HAD multiple chances. Each time she TT'd you, she had the chance to tell the truth and start to rebuild your trust. But she didn't. She chose to lie and try to protect herself and deflect from the truth. So no, she really doesn't deserve another chance. It is up to you to decide, and I think your making the right choice.

M84,

Disclaimer - I don't know much of your back story I'm just replying to your last post. There's a lot going on in there, and all of it sounds perfectly normal being only 9 months or so from D Day. It sounds like you are doing the right things to take care of you, all the SI idioms like you need to be willing to lose the relationship to save it and all. That sounds like a cliche but I think that it's a catalyst in surviving infidelity.

Reaching that point is significant. It alerts your WW that you are serious that it's not about love, it's that you can no longer remain in the relationship with someone who violated that trust. That relationship is over. Once you get there, the WW has a decision to make whether they know it or not - wake up and create a new relationship or lose the one that exists. You've made your decision, now she is on the clock. The clock runs on your timeline.

To paraphrase, isn't this just begging for a chance? A chance she doesn't deserve?

I can't answer that for you, as I don't think my wife deserved that chance at 9 months out, or even a year out. And I didn't give it to her. I gave myself time to watch her actions and not her words, to see the changes she was making, real changes and awareness that our old relationship was gone, but our history wasn't. She got that, and she new that nothing she could do could erase what had happened, but she did the work and didn't avoid that fact. That's what saved our marriage (I'll caveat that with saying so far) but I'm optimistic. We are almost 9 years out and happy in R. That's my anecdotal advice.

M84, how are you doing?

And how are you doing Incarnate?

It's sad to see where we are right now in the Menz thread. This place is a ghost town as of late .

It's sad to see where we are right now in the Menz thread. This place is a ghost town as of late

Not much to say of late. Cabin fever...go to bed early...wife goes to bed late...breaking in the new dog Hank, or as I affectionately refer to him, Hank-zilla. He lunges and snaps at my wife if she gets too close to me. My theory is that he's been watching cable news and is enforcing the social distancing thing of 6 feet.

What's up with the rest of you?

Work, work and more work. Taking a couple online class and doing online volunteering so I'm not working all the time. Working in my yard, but that's more therapy then work and this is showing up soon

so hopefully some distraction time there.

Nice guitar. I have a 62 Gibson 12-string but took off 6 strings and tuned it down by one octave because it was beginning to bow the neck.

I've been a volunteer at our local Federal prison for around 20 years but that was cancelled on March 13th. Doubt very much they will open up the prison to volunteers any time soon.

I've been binge watching shows on Hulu. Am getting ready to finish up the 4-season French crime drama, Braquo, which btw is awesome. After that I'll get caught up on the latest Vikings season.

Machiavellia84

Her lying, her manipulation, her relentless decision to protect herself from her actions and keep me in the dark throughout multiple D-days meant I have lost all basis of reality and truth, and I have lost all ability to trust her.

This hits me hard - this is why I'm separating. I can't come back from what my STBXW has done.

To paraphrase, isn't this just begging for a chance? A chance she doesn't deserve? Chances like these were given against my better judgement, and said chances were all squandered and pissed on by her.

She is giving me a complete timeline. She is vowing NC. She is including me in the process of ensuring NC. (She doesn't want any chance of relapse, apparently, and she says she wants us bad enough to do anything to make sure she doesn't fuck it up at all.) She is giving me access to her WhatsApp, her emails. She is vowing to stay accountable to her every movement as and when she resumes going back to work. She is giving me full autonomy over our finances. Giving transparency to every single cent she has spent and will spend.

I think she knows it is too little too late. I think it is too little too late, too

I think it's because she is looking at it differently than you are. She's looking at what you are doing as punishment. You are looking at it as the inevitable conclusions of the inability to ever trust her again.

I've just been super busy coping with... post-dday rollercoasters. Trying not to binge eat. Trying not to lash out. Trying not to cry too much. Trying not to die.

Just surviving for now

I'm sorry man. I know how you feel. You will get through this.

steadychevy

This "chose" idea really irritates me. My 1st IC said that to me. Once. I chose her when I asked her to marry me and she chose me when she said yes. Then we confirmed it in front of a church full of witnesses and God's presence.

I told my IC that she unchose me to commit adultery. She test drove a POS for 4 years and then decided she would choose me. Actually, she was never going to leave me. She liked our future. But lucky me. She test drives someone else a lot then decides she likes the old model better.

It bothers me too - my STBXW said some shit like this too, but instead of 'choosing me' it was 'choosing the family'. Fuck that bullshit. My STBXW did the same thing. Didn't care at all what it did to me, must had to get her ego kibbles.

TheLostOne, my XWW also tried to lay this on me. "We had so many good things in our marriage so we shouldn't throw that away." This was after I finally found out. I replied that apparently that didn't occur to her when she was screwing him, gaslighting me, lying to my face while looking me in the eye for 4 years. No come back from her.