SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am so sorry you are going through this. I never had to deal with an ex-crazy lover, so I feel your anguish with worrying over that complete nonsense. I am glad that your H deleted/deactivated facebook. That was my first request for my H and he did it and has not been back on in over 10 years. It is crazy how social media has become such forces in our lives. I cannot really offer you any advice here except wait to see... wait to see if he can turn this around.. He needs to shift his focus onto you no matter how wounded he is by this discussion. This weekend, celebrate yourself.. You deserve it. Switch channels and do not stay focused on what happened last year to you... go by yourself a new outfit, eat off a fancy plate, and toast yourself to how incredibly strong you are.. because you are... we all are. God Bless and Happy birthday.

Just wanna echo some of the posts that resonated for me - that showing OURSELVES the love and compassion is super important/necessary. Put simply, I don't think a BS can ever really heal unless/until they put themselves and their needs FIRST. That doesn't mean we don't have compassion for others - even others who have harmed us (and themselves).

For me, it was VERY (or too) easy to focus on my WH (esp after his suicide attempt)... however, in a way, it also served to avoid focusing on ME and my own healing. I could see how effed up he was... and also HAD to learn to see that it was not my problem - at all. Not my responsibility - at all. He needs to find his OWN support system to address his OWN needs/issues. Waywards can have an almost intuitive way of sucking the life out of those they "love"... not saying it's intentional, but it does happen. Manipulation is often not intentional or even conscious, but it also happens (and is a hallmark of many waywards, who can use some pretty effing cunning ways of getting what they want at the expense of others, and then appear blindsided when called out on it. Folks with self awareness and reflection usually catch that kind of stuff). And let's not forget that SHAME is pretty damn selfish and manipulative (I feel so shameful about myself, how can you be mad? or I'm already so mad at myself, how can you hold me accountable?)

My IC recently reminded me of something I'd not been paying attention to: what do I get out of x or y or z.

So- what do YOU get out of being his support system (esp his sole support system) ?

What does it say to our about you?

What does it say to/about YOUR needs and wants?

Seeing him now, I think it's possible the damage to him is a lot more serious than I'd even thought. He needs consistency, unselfish love and unwavering support. He needs to hear "I am not going anywhere".

I get how hard it is to separate the love you have for the person from their actions. And it's okay to love them still. But it is okay, indeed healthier, for you to love YOU more right now. YOU need the support. YOU need the love. You need to show up for YOU right now. And just mho, but you can't give yourself the love and support YOU need if you are giving it to him.

And I will point out here that he is facing the consequences of his decisions right now. And all the poor-him stuff may or may not be a manipulative move on his part to keep you hooked in to his nonsense. Mine tried to pull that too - he was always such a victim. I bought it in the beginning, but at the end? NOPE. He made some truly execrable choices, and there were natural consequences for those decisions and that's called being a grown up and it sucks. But it wasn't my responsibility to stick around and support and love someone who was unwilling to work on himself at all much less his marriage, and that is not your responsibility either. It takes time to get there, but you owe yourself way more grace and care right now than you owe to him. Just my 0.02.

I know it's hard - please be kind to yourself.

I think you’re doing great working through all this with your IC. It’s ok if you’re not ready to pull the plug. It’s ok to need some more time to figure out what you want (as long as you are safe) As I said, I have had a lot of back and forth myself, and I think that’s pretty normal. No matter what, know we are all on team Grace! You are understood, supported, and not alone ❤️

@undeserving, thank you for this, I needed to hear this <3

@Fof9303, thank you x

So- what do YOU get out of being his support system (esp his sole support system) ?

What does it say to our about you?

What does it say to/about YOUR needs and wants?

@gmc94 These are complex questions.

First of all important to say this is a new thing. Our M previously was one of mutual support and he wasn't sick and didn't have these sorts of needs. So I don't think I was walking around with a savoir complex. Second of all, it's in my nature that if someone (anyone) is genuinely not okay, I'll help them. That's me all over.

But, more importantly, our M was vulnerable because my WH had wounds and he didn't tell me about those wounds because he thought I might leave, so he told AP instead.

He didn't care if she left, so why not tell her? So he bonded with someone who wasn't me. Then she was a lunatic, who caused a lot more wounds.

I think this A was about being far apart / ego kibbles / not having had sex for over a year - sure - it was about those things, but the root of the root is that he shared emotional intimacy with somebody who wasn't me. If he hadn't done that, he would never have ended up in bed with someone else. What's happening now (the mess in front of me that is him), is awful, but it's also the intimacy being reinstated between us.

"The story of human intimacy is one of constantly allowing ourselves to see those we love most deeply in a new, more fractured light" Which is what's happening now. It might not be fun or pleasant or comfortable or "what I deserve", but it's real, finally.

I get how hard it is to separate the love you have for the person from their actions.

@ElliKMAS this, exactly this.

And it's okay to love them still. But it is okay, indeed healthier, for you to love YOU more right now. YOU need the support. YOU need the love. You need to show up for YOU right now. And just mho, but you can't give yourself the love and support YOU need if you are giving it to him.

I hope to figure this out in IC. I am not sure what it even means right now! Loving "me" has, through my life, meant generally being nice to myself, talking to myself like my own best friend, sleeping when I was tired, seeing a masseuse when I had a sore back, respecting myself by making healthy choices and a big one was always refusing to me around anyone who made me feel bad or was toxic. I guess accepting infidelity puts a spanner in that one!

And all the poor-him stuff may or may not be a manipulative move on his part to keep you hooked in to his nonsense.

What I honestly think is that it's a statement of fact. If a person is extremely depressed with severe PTSD then there are limits to what they can do. I don't fall for a few "poor me" words. I see a man who has read a book every week all his life who hasn't finished a single book in six months. I see a man who used to run every day (even with pneumonia) who can now barely get out of bed. I don't think anyone is above manipulation, not even me, but right now he's sick. There's not really any way around that reality :(

Mine tried to pull that too - he was always such a victim.

The fight last weekend aside, where for the first time he seemed to play the victim, all through this, and as a general rule, I think my WH does the opposite. I feel like he'd blame himself for 9/11 if you let the CIA talk to him for 10 minutes. I was reading last night on what "playing the victim" means and it means that basically you don't accept where you had choices.

I am the victim of the affair as I am the only one who had no choices.

My WH accepts, fully, this was all his choice and that he is not the victim.

AP, unfortunately, believes herself to be a victim as she was "led on". She does not accept she knew he was married, she knew he had told her he didn't see her romantically, he knew he told her he wanted me and not her. She plays the victim because she doesn't acknowledge she had the choice to leave him the *** alone!

What I think my WH had a problem with is not playing the victim or manipulating. It's more a lack of empathy and a natural kind of self-absorbed nature. He has always had those things.

EDITED TYPO

[This message edited by GraceLoves at 4:09 PM, Tuesday, November 23rd]

Questions, questions, questions.

I have had space from WH for a while now and I have done a lot of sleeping. Is that normal? I don't feel depressed, just completely exhausted. It's a very tranquil sleep, like I have just survived something awful and scary and now I am safe.

I think I have cognitive dissonance going on. Because of the contradiction of all this. Ie: someone loves you and values their M so much but does this inexplicable things.

I am questioning why fidelity is so important to me. It definitely isn't about sex. I am a woman who's pretty easygoing and practical about sex. To be honest, we were apart for nearly 1.5 years, if he had said to me he wanted to get laid, I'd have probably been okay with it and been able to laugh. I know that sounds weird and most people are not like me on this, but it's me being honest.

A lot of it is about loyalty.

A lot of it is about honesty.

A lot of it is about feeling like someone took my agency away for me to choose.

What I honestly think is that it's a statement of fact. If a person is extremely depressed with severe PTSD then there are limits to what they can do. I don't fall for a few "poor me" words. I see a man who has read a book every week all his life who hasn't finished a single book in six months. I see a man who used to run every day (even with pneumonia) who can now barely get out of bed. I don't think anyone is above manipulation, not even me, but right now he's sick. There's not really any way around that reality :(

I realize this may sound a bit cold, but all of this is HIM problems. Not that I don't have empathy for him - I do actually. But HE needs to be in charge of his health and mental health issues. YOU need to be in charge of yours.

I think there's a lot of similarity to dealing with a wayward and dealing with an alcoholic. My mom is a recovering alcoholic but when I was dealing with her in her active addiction it was a lot like wrangling with my xwh in his cheating mess and his ptsd and all his issues too. And the fact of the matter is that with my mom, I tried to 'help' her for years, but all my 'help' did was allow her to stay stuck. It wasn't until I said when and laid down my boundaries that she got sober (I'm not taking credit for her work, mind you); me telling her that I would no longer deal with her drinking made it uncomfortable enough for her that she was forced to change.

Same thing with my xwh really. I tried to 'help' him by being empathetic and understanding about alllll his issues that 'caused' his cheating. His FOO, his PTSD, his seizure disorder, and on and on and on. But you see.... he had all these things, and sought no therapy, and didn't take advantage of his resources to manage them, and refused to work with doctors to get on proper meds. You know, basically like being a grown up and handling his shit. My being a soft place for him allowed him to keep staying stuck. End result when I did lay down a hard line was divorce, but it got me out of infidelity. And I have to point out too that I have many issues of my own - the difference between him and me was that I don't allow my issues to give me permission to hurt people. I worried about mine too - what would he do about his seizures if I wasn't there to remind him about his meds and dr appts?? What would he do about having a triggery day without me there to talk him down?? But he managed for 30 years before we met, and by all accounts is still alive now 2+ years without me too. See, I thought that 'care' meant something to him, but how much did it really? And while I was busy managing his life for him, I was not paying attention to my own needs and wants. That was a pretty startling revelation for me after dday.

Point being - your wh needs to grow up and manage his self. Like I said, I know that sounds cold. But if you're doing it for him, he has no real impetus to change anything.

It took me years to understand that I can love someone and still not choose to be around them because I don't owe anyone my care and energy when/if it is detrimental to my own well-being. If they are in a place where they need to change, I can lay down my boundary and love them from over there. If they choose to change, great, but if they don't then detachment is the healthiest choice for me.

I realize this may sound a bit cold, but all of this is HIM problems. Not that I don't have empathy for him - I do actually. But HE needs to be in charge of his health and mental health issues. YOU need to be in charge of yours.

I know, but my point was more that I can't get blood from a stone so there's really no point saying I need x,y,z because I can't get it. I was frustrated, but now I accept it, which is maybe healing for me too.

I don't think for one second my life is going to be transformed into one of being carer and enabler, I don't want that.

I think a lot of what I feel right now is cheated. I was cheated out of a faithful M and now I am even cheated out of proper R because my idiot WH broke himself.

Sorry if that sounds mean!

I know, but my point was more that I can't get blood from a stone so there's really no point saying I need x,y,z because I can't get it. I was frustrated, but now I accept it, which is maybe healing for me too.

No, you can't. You have a WH who cannot be R material right now. What you do with that is up to you, but there's no R if he can't participate.

think a lot of what I feel right now is cheated. I was cheated out of a faithful M and now I am even cheated out of proper R because my idiot WH broke himself.

Continuing to "feel cheated" defeats the purpose of R. I think it's one thing if he needs more time to get to a place where he can work on it, and IF you feel comfortable giving him the additional time. But you don't owe him, and eventually the work has to be put into your R. Otherwise, it's never going to feel right. It's fully within your prerogative to say, "hey, I'm patient and I'm willing to wait for awhile". But I don't think you'll be happy with the end product if you allow yourself to be "cheated out of a proper R".

I think a lot of what I feel right now is cheated. I was cheated out of a faithful M and now I am even cheated out of proper R because my idiot WH broke himself.

I totally get this. But the thing about R... it takes two people to make it work. And as you said - he broke himself by making really bad choices and not addressing the things he needs to address in his own self. Which means it is HIS responsibility to unfuck himself, not yours. It's not your responsibility to stick around and support him while he does that (if he ever does) either. You can still love him and want that healing for him while removing yourself from the situation to protect your own interests and energy. That is SO much easier said than done, but when you are dealing with a person who is really sick in whatever way that refuses to do anything to help their own self... something about horses and water, but short answer is that you can love them all the way and want all the good for them, but if they ain't willing to do that for themselves then all it will do is wear you down.

I said earlier that I realized just how much of my own needs and wants had been completely put aside in my M. It happened subtly over years and wasn't intentional, so I didn't really even notice that I was doing that - which I think is not unusual for someone like me that is a naturally empathetic person and an adult child of an alcoholic. But after dday, when I was trying for R (side note: turns out I was trying for it, while my xwh was continuing to cheat so that was fun), and I started really drilling down into what I wanted, it was REALLY hard to realize this: I wanted A, B, and C, but he couldn't give me A, B, and C. Because of all his issues he was legitimately just NOT capable of doing that. It was really hard to accept that, but when I did it was also very freeing. Because I no longer felt like I 'had' to give him the care and energy I needed to give to ME.

Your situation isn't quite the same as mine, but I think that any BS can benefit from figuring out how to detach in a healthy way from a ws who refuses to do the work.

Your WH is a broken man who can't even be honest with himself. To counter that, he plays the little boy victim. While I love a good R, it has to be about two people healing and growing. He doesn't seem to have either capability now. Men, after a certain age, oft fall apart. They fall and then see the world differently. They lose their integrity and can never get it back. So they become little boys again and struggle the rest of their lives. To me, it's too much to lay on the betrayed that they have to heal mostly alone and also be the parent for their spouse. If he can't be a man, it's probably best to just cut ties. No need to be cruel or whatever, but just let him know that he can no longer help himself and he's the betrayer.

I wish you well.

GraceLoves - this was my life for some time after d-day. My WS was a mess and literally had a psychological break. It really messes with us as empathetic partners to have to turn our backs and allow them to fend for themselves.

I can say this. It won't help for you to do anything for him. It can't. He has to mend himself and the best message you can provide is how important you are to you so he can see that you are not something to negate. It will leave him standing with himself even more but isn't that what he and you need right now?

I know that often WS's don't change until they are pushed to do so. Best advice I got was to take care of myself and leave my WS to do the same. The nature of our partnership necessarily had to change after infidelity. You don't have to take responsibility for his wholeness nor his happiness. The more we do that the worse it gets unfortunately. Big hugs to you.

I am so glad you responded to this, ISSF. Listen to her, GraceLoves. She has walked this path.

I get the pain of being far away. The only time I was at risk of cheating was when I met a terrific woman while I was on a 14 week training program, with one trip home at 8 weeks. Fortunately, she did not reciprocate the 'feelings'. Our per diems were generous. I took a trip home after 4 weeks. The instant I saw my W, I realized I was just lonely. We had been M 10 years, and I missed the companionship and all that goes with it. If I had been in an enforced separation for an indefinite period, I don't know what I'd have done.

One big issue is that your H won't make the effort to get help. I agree he needs help, but it's not help you can give. Even if you could be his therapist, that's not a good role for a life partner.

You can't get what you need right now, but you can say, 'Get help by this date, or I'm gone.'

IMO, that's the very best you can do for him.

GraceLoves-

gotta echo ISSF and others (and IIRC, ISSF's WH was in IC from dday - so even tho he wasn't making the progress she needed, he was making the effort to at least be in IC -and it sounds as if your WH isn't doing even that much).

Not saying you should x or y or z. However, your WH is not R material right now (it takes two to R), which leaves you to decide if you want to give it more time, and if so, how do you protect YOURSELF from more hurt? What ways may staying emotionally connected stall YOUR healing?

our M was vulnerable because my WH had wounds and he didn't tell me about those wounds

I might consider reframing this to your WH was vulnerable - not the marriage.

FWIW, I could say the EXACT same thing about my own WH, whose CSAT says this is an attachment disorder going WAY back in his FOO, that's hard as F for HIM (or anyone) to repair/heal from, which is a precursor to even STARTING the work of R. Not diagnosing your WH - but attachment theory is something I found helpful in my journey (esp once I flipped from trying to Dx him to learning about MY attachment issues).

You may get some mileage by listening to the Stan Tatkin episode of helping couples heal.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:54 AM, November 25th, 2021 (Thursday)]

GraceLoves - this was my life for some time after d-day. My WS was a mess and literally had a psychological break. It really messes with us as empathetic partners to have to turn our backs and allow them to fend for themselves.

I can say this. It won't help for you to do anything for him. It can't. He has to mend himself and the best message you can provide is how important you are to you so he can see that you are not something to negate. It will leave him standing with himself even more but isn't that what he and you need right now?

I know that often WS's don't change until they are pushed to do so. Best advice I got was to take care of myself and leave my WS to do the same. The nature of our partnership necessarily had to change after infidelity. You don't have to take responsibility for his wholeness nor his happiness. The more we do that the worse it gets unfortunately. Big hugs to you.

Thank you ISSF, really good advice, and it means a lot to know someone has been in my shoes (although I am very sorry you had to be).

Where I am at right now is disengaged. I have not seen him. I have barely responded to contact. I have told him I just want to be alone. I have been nice, and said I hope he feels better, but that I just want to be alone.

He's tried to persuade me to see him, and said if I am sad he wants to comfort me and cheer me up. It just made me realise how much he just doesn't get it. I don't need "cheering up", I need tangible participation from him in healing from his cheating. Or at least tangible steps to sort himself out.

I think I have realised if he's not giving what I need for R then I may as well just be by myself anyway. Otherwise basically the M has become one where I am basically healing him from his affair whilst he does basically nothing. It's making me very resentful, understandably, but I am the one who chose to do that.

Going to IC by myself hasn't worked in his favour - telling the counsellor "out loud" all these things is just making me withdraw from any faith in the M. He's not there to participate, so it sets a bad impression. Like a defendant not showing up to court!

I'm so glad GraceLoves that you are seeing the need to help yourself first and foremost.

He's tried to persuade me to see him, and said if I am sad he wants to comfort me and cheer me up. It just made me realise how much he just doesn't get it. I don't need "cheering up", I need tangible participation from him in healing from his cheating. Or at least tangible steps to sort himself out.

And here's the thing. This is ALL about him. When I told my WS that it was about him and not me he just couldn't get it. After he did the work he described it as me being his mirror. If I was sad and upset (and I was) then it made him feel worse and of course his behavior would just make R farther from possible. It took a lot for me to learn to let go of him and of the outcome and of the ways in which we engaged prior to infidelity. Sounds like you are on your way.

This is NOT easy at all. Not one bit.

I think I have realised if he's not giving what I need for R then I may as well just be by myself anyway. Otherwise basically the M has become one where I am basically healing him from his affair whilst he does basically nothing. It's making me very resentful, understandably, but I am the one who chose to do that.

Very good on you! That is exactly why I got to the point where I knew I would leave. It gets to a point where it is a total drain because we are still hurting from the trauma AND getting re-traumatized every time our WS cannot see or attune to us. The pain is just too much to carry so we have to shed some part of it and the part we must shed is their healing. We cannot do it for them anyway. The more we do the more they rely on us as their mirror. That is simply unfair and not healthy for either party.

I got to the point where I simply told him I didn't care about anything he did or didn't do. It had no impact on my emotions. I also told him that the more he couldn't see me the more I understood how he could betray me and the more I was emotionally slipping away from him. At the time I felt like I would never get the feelings back.

So this level of ambiguity may be uncomfortable but part of our healing is getting comfortable with the unknown. You are getting there. Don't underestimate the damage this has done - and the effort you need for yourself because you are worth it. He will or won't get his big boy pants on. In the meantime, work on you so you can set the boundaries you need to stave off more trauma. Sounds like you are on your way!

And here's the thing. This is ALL about him. When I told my WS that it was about him and not me he just couldn't get it. After he did the work he described it as me being his mirror. If I was sad and upset (and I was) then it made him feel worse and of course his behavior would just make R farther from possible.

Sounds familiar!!!

It gets to a point where it is a total drain because we are still hurting from the trauma AND getting re-traumatized every time our WS cannot see or attune to us.

Yep, I am here right now.

I was emotionally slipping away from him. At the time I felt like I would never get the feelings back.

I feel like I am emotionally slipping away. This makes me really sad.

I feel pretty awful actually, like this feeling of resignation and complete loss of hope or faith. I wish he could understand ANYTHING I am feeling, but he can't. I am just utterly alone in this.

It occurred to me that I have been sitting there reading the books, posting on this forum, seeing the counsellor and he has not been attuned to me or properly present for me. Him abandoning me through the healing process is another wound to add to the pile of wounds.

Sadly this is part of the process or at least it was for me.

I feel pretty awful actually, like this feeling of resignation and complete loss of hope or faith. I wish he could understand ANYTHING I am feeling, but he can't. I am just utterly alone in this.

It is a double whammy - the very person we would normally turn to help us through such a horrible trauma has abandoned us again. It is not a great feeling. But I will tell you that the hopelessness will turn into incredible resolve for you. This is the cusp of a big part of the healing process. Sadly you too have to stand on your own to heal. I wish it wasn't the case. But it will make you incredibly strong. There simply is not enough energy to take care of yourself properly and work on the M until each party has done enough work on themselves.

I understand being so sad about this.

I feel like I am emotionally slipping away. This makes me really sad.

It feels like it is impossible to get back. This is exactly what I expressed to my WS. I told him that I could feel it and if he didn't get his act together it would be too late. In fact I did lose all feelings for him. Now I look at it differently than I did then. I think it is a necessary activity to get us to focus on ourselves appropriately. I was absolutely to attached to his well-being and his behavior forced me to turn to me. He seemed so hopeless to me. I just couldn't recognize who the hell this man was after living with him for 20 years. It was incredibly heartbreaking - I understand where you are at.

To your point, it feels like another wound. And that too is what needs to stop to protect ourselves from further pain.

It occurred to me that I have been sitting there reading the books, posting on this forum, seeing the counsellor and he has not been attuned to me or properly present for me. Him abandoning me through the healing process is another wound to add to the pile of wounds.

He is living in complete and utter shame and that will cause him to go into survival mode and not see you. Knowing this is little comfort when we are hurting so badly.

This is why the recommendation is to really do you. Turn inward right now - it will help you out. If I can say anything, don't worry about the loss of feelings for him. He will either do the work or he won't. But you must do you and he needs to experience the healthy boundaries you put around you.

Big big big hugs to you!

He's not R material by a very long shot, that being said, the fact he refused to block her on FB speaks volumes, deleting his FB is NOT the same, he needs to convey in no uncertain terms that he wants to block HER and only her, he could have deleted the whole thing to spare her feelings and if that's the case, well another proverbial "nail in the coffin". If you ever entertain the idea of R again I would press him to reactivate his FB account and then block her, not just from FB but from all social media, phone, emails, and even an NC FOREVER text in front of you, short and to the point (no sweet goodbyes), and that's just for starters. Again based on what you posted, I suggest you pull the trigger and file for D, you deserve so much better, If you haven't, don't forget to get tested for STDs, some could stay dormant for years.