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"We never forgive and act, we only ever forgive people." I cannot excuse or forgive what she did, but I can forgive her.

I am completely unable to separate the two. If someone murdered my child would someone suggest this? Just how would anyone separate the killer from the act of killing?

She chose to cheat, she cheated, she lied. Exactly how can I absolve her? How could I, or anyone, forgive a cheater for cheating? I don't understand it and I never will. Separating it like this - like "hate the game, not the player" - is insulting to my intelligence. It is a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize why a BS stays with a cheater.

If I forgive, will I be "weak".

There is a hyuge hidden assumption here that being weak or strong is important. Is it really? Is it an actual criteria you have, or a imposed societal criteria creeping into your decision making.

Here's a thought to ponder...forgiving is neither weak nor strong in and of itself, but it is possible to try to forgive from a position of weakness, or from a position of strength. Subtle difference. Which one is more likely to succeed?

ISurvived7734

Separating it like this - like "hate the game, not the player" - is insulting to my intelligence.

So do you believe no one can truly forgive, that you personally can't forgive, or are you choosing not to forgive?

So do you believe no one can truly forgive, that you personally can't forgive, or are you choosing not to forgive?

I speak only for myself - I cannot forgive. I could "choose" to forgive which would make my WW feel better but I would be lying to myself.

I don't necessarily do "forgiveness".

I do acceptance.... I accept that my WH is capable of being a liar and cheat. He is capable of intentionally hurting me and putting himself first.

I also accept that he kind, loving, authentic, cheerful, reflective, thoughtful, considerate, proactive, a good dad & a leader.

I accept that all those things reside on him and that I am strong enough to handle it all. I accept that there will be good & bad days, laughter, pain, hurt feelings, miscommunocation, no sex, lots of sex, forgetfulness, mundane task. I accept that he is human and flawed.

I don't forgive him..what he did was.unforgivable...I accept his human. And that I am too. I know what he is capable off...and that I can survive it.

I think I may reach forgiveness one day, in the literal sense that I will not seek revenge or try to achieve justice. Because I think that would be futile. There is no "fair" and no justice for what has been done. There are some wrongs you can't make right. You can't unring the bell, whatever cliché you want to apply.

But I remember back in my college days when I was taking a logic course,(as House of Plane was saying something similar) where we discussed things that bother you, such as the question of whether or not you are weak for staying. The lesson was, is this REALLY a problem for me, or is it something I perceive others will judge me for. I had to admit that in many cases, there were things that I was letting eat at me that were purely because I could hear my mothers' voice (or someone else) being outraged at what I was accepting in my life.

What's ironic is that my H was one of those people who would be so indignant that I was allowing someone to "wrong" me and not standing up to them, and now here he is asking me to stay with him after he screwed me over.

[This message edited by tiredofcrying59 at 7:59 PM, September 28th (Thursday)]

Ditto all said by Sisoon. Also think that notwithstanding the ease of speaking that way, forgiveness isn't something that's "given" as one would give a gift, or information, or a smile. Seems to me it's something that grows organically inside the betrayed, develops in one who has been violated as time passes and as the relationship changes, improves, grows, develops into something better.

You're still living with your H; you are doing things, you are intimate in many significant ways. Each day you are living forgiveness as a process as something growing from your willingness to work on your M. Maybe even that is not forgiveness so much as acceptance, as openness to continue to be together.

I know those many years out from d-day-ten years or more. Some have never felt they forgave but they are glad they stayed; they are content in their relationship--it's not perfect--their past is very imperfect but there's no desire to separate. Maybe it's something to stop thinking about.

I expressed forgiveness to my husband. I feel very much at peace.

Thank you for all of the insight on forgiveness. I was using lack of forgiveness to control my need for justice.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 8:18 AM, September 29th (Friday)]

I told my WH that I forgave him early because he was suicidal. I didn't mean it. I don't even know what it would mean to do so. I guess I'm accepting that he can do something that awful to me and I know to watch out now and be strong enough within myself to trust my instincts and leave. I am choosing to give him the power to hurt me again by staying, though he could never hurt me that intensely again. Forgiveness...yeah. I still don't know what that would mean for me. I'm not trying to exact vengeance on him currently. I'm very impressed with his growth as a person so far. I'm staying as long as he's growing and bettering himself as a human being. I do love him very much. But forgiveness? For wrecking me psychologically in ways that I'll never be the same from? Nah. I don't know that I forgive that. I may become a better person in some ways after this, but a lot of very good and important things died in me too. Accept that it happened and that he damaged me, sure. No choice in that.

I'm happy for you. Forgiveness is hard, and a huge step. I'm glad you're feeling a little better today.

She chose to cheat, she cheated, she lied. Exactly how can I absolve her? How could I, or anyone, forgive a cheater for cheating? I don't understand it and I never will.

So ... you're saying you can predict the future, huh?

If forgiveness is giving up the desire for revenge or for your WS to be punished, you might be surprised. I sure was.

A lot of people told me forgiveness wasn't required for R, and I believed them. I was pretty sure I would never forgive, but R worked well for me, and there I was, close to 4 years out, unable to sense any desire for revenge or for punishing my W. I was shocked, but there it was.

My guess is that holding to an 'I will never forgive' position is probably some sort of emotional defense. If you want to heal - and I mean you heal you; I don't mean R - you need to recognize that's no defense at all.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:11 AM, September 29th (Friday)]

If and when I am ready to forgive my WW I will. She wants it and I told her I am nowhere near there yet. She has to earn my trust back first, and then when I get to where I can trust her again, I might do forgiveness.

Her church family were all over me to forgive her right away. And of course, because I was the husband it was my fault. She cheated because I was not providing her with what she needed and because I was not being a good "Priest of my household". I basically told them all to stick it, and I left the church after getting into an argument with the pastor about all of it.

She still goes to that church and gets fed all that blame-shifting crap, which I'm not too happy about, but it's her life.

If and when I am ready to forgive my WW I will.

Kind of like a watched pot never boils, it may we'll be that staring at the forgiveness question gets in the way of forgiveness. Read Sisoon's post above, it echos my experience.

After a period of time of just getting on with life with my wife, I found myself in a state of forgiveness. I couldn't be bothered to drag up the anger, to roll around in the manure of it all. I was free of it. I remember sitting in the parking lot of the doctors on day, and kind of marveling at the fact.

I was raised going to a baptist church. The teaching was to always forgive. I was also taught that when His forgives us,it absolves us from our sins into her words we need to repent and ask for forgiveness, God absolves us -meaning we are able to go to heaven now. All bad doings are washed away.

That is how I was raised and what I believed forgiveness was.

So now,Ian not able to, nor do I concern myself with forgiving my wh. I was taught it meant absolving someone of their wrong doing and I can't do that. I have ever heard that it is for yourself. It was always for the sinner. It was never to free me if my red for punishment but for the sinner to be absolved of punishment. That's how I was raised to believe in forgiveness. Therefore I am unable to forgive and don't feel any need to. If he wants forgiveness he can ask God for it. That's also how I was raised. You asked God for forgiveness.

Very interesting opinions and thoughts and I thank everyone for sharing. Gave me lots to think about.

I do have one thing to add. I truly believe that Reconciliation will only work if both people love each other with their whole hearts. And without forgiveness, can that happen?

I've been in both positions. When my XWH cheated the first time, I forgave him readily and we were happily reconciled for 34 yrs.

This time, I did not forgive him readily and we're divorced. But I actually feel myself beginning to forgive him in my heart. I'll never tell him that but it's making me feel more at peace.

I'm not sure if that clarifies anything for anyone or makes the waters muddier. Or maybe both. :)

Ah forgiveness. Everyone wants to know what this is, should the offer it, can they attain it, etc. I suppose my husband wants it. I suppose I have given him a lot of forgiveness, but it's never been our focus. It's like both of us focus on making our decisions for what's best for our marriage. Lots of our arguments end now because the source of the arguments are selfish and not what is best for the marriage. We talk about stuff and generally find solutions to problems because every problem's solution isn't what I want or he wants, it's "what is best for the marriage ". Have I forgiven him? I guess I have for most of it. Not formally. Has he asked for my forgiveness? Not in almost 2 years? Is forgiving him what's best for our marriage ultimately? Probably so. How do I go about forgiving? As resentments surface, I face them. I mull over them. I eventually come to peace with them because that is what's best for our marriage. And then I forgive him for that bit of destruction. Then we move forward. When decisions start being made based on what is best for the marriage, then you stop worrying if forgiveness is a weakness or if he got his way more than you or if it was his turn to make coffee, or rub your back or pickup the kids. You just do what is best for the marriage and the marriage becomes happier.

i think you can love someone and not forgive them.

Sewardak- there's no doubt about that. You can love someone who you do not forgive and forgiveness doesn't have to happen. I completely agree with you. But who is hurting by not forgiving? Who is being helped by not forgiving? I'm not judging. I'm curious.

deephurt: I was raised going to a baptist church. The teaching was to always forgive. I was also taught that when His forgives us,it absolves us from our sins into her words we need to repent and ask for forgiveness, God absolves us -meaning we are able to go to heaven now. All bad doings are washed away.

That is how I was raised and what I believed forgiveness was.

So now,Ian not able to, nor do I concern myself with forgiving my wh. I was taught it meant absolving someone of their wrong doing and I can't do that. I have ever heard that it is for yourself. It was always for the sinner. It was never to free me if my red for punishment but for the sinner to be absolved of punishment. That's how I was raised to believe in forgiveness. Therefore I am unable to forgive and don't feel any need to. If he wants forgiveness he can ask God for it. That's also how I was raised. You asked God for forgiveness.

I was raised in a Baptist church also and I was taught the same thing, and when it came down to it I could not forgive her...especially since her affair was with one of our church's ministers.

Were you pressured by you pastor and church family to forgive him? I was pestered by those people so bad and for so long that I left the church and never went back. I think I have decided to follow Jesus on my own accord and not worry about church. Who needs that kind of fellowship, where everyone blames me for what she did?

[This message edited by LivingWithPain at 2:54 PM, October 2nd (Monday)]

w3irz - i can say simply I don't forgive someone and there is no bitterness, anger or need for justice attached to it. probably doesn't hurt anyone. but some things are unforgiveable. doesn't mean we have to stay mad about it, it just is. in many cases of infidelity, imo, this is true.

following your logic everyone should forgive for everything if it only hurts the victim of the crime. I just don't see it that way. sometimes people need to hang onto something to make things right inside their head. so in some cases, not forgiving is helping the victim.

[This message edited by sewardak at 3:22 PM, October 2nd (Monday)]

Religious discussions are forbidden here. However, since some people have mentioned religious teachings, I would like to add my two cents.

About forgiveness, I suggest Christians read Luke 15:7 and John 8:7 (or, if you have the time, the full text of Luke 15).

Some people here said that only God should forgive. I would kindly suggest them read Matthew 18:21-22.

Please do not answer me, for we can't discuss religion here. Just read the few verses that I mentioned and, if you think it is worth it, discuss it at your church.