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I'm sorry Somber...your husband doesn't get it.

I really feel now that I could and should have done more to show my support and encouragement.

Here's how I feel. I remind DH of when it's good for him to meet with his sponsor and manage the kids while he goes off. When DH was going to 12 step groups at a different time, I gave up my 1-2 hours of "me" time a week so he could go to a meeting.

I hired sitters so he could get to meetings after his relapse.

I am trying to work through the marriage after all of his lies.

I encourage DH to do other things he's interested in to keep himself mentally healthy.

That is how I show my support.

If my husband wants "atta boys" he can get them just fine from his 12 step group. And he does, actually, now that he's got over 2.5 years of sobriety under his belt this time.

My husband does not extend the same courtesies to me so that I can heal myself.

Should we separate, I also don't think that my husband will ever fess up and say he's the reason why. I figure I'll just have to fill in the appropriate details when the time comes.

I won't even celebrate our wedding anniversary anymore, since his relapse. I don't get a card or anything. I also request that DH keep it very low key, if he felt the need to mark the occasions. This past one DH asked his parents to watch the kids so we could go out. I told him to cancel. So we did.

Or is he playing the victim so well I am just an easy target for this emotional rollercoaster?

Somber, I think the short answer to this is, yep.

Your husband is very lucky you are anywhere nearby, in anyway shape or form for any part of the day or week. A cake??? Really? He's lucky he doesn't get one in his face. What did he bring home for you?

Done more to show your support and encouragement? You feel you should do more??? I hope you have people in your life who are giving you support and encouragement. You are not your husband's sponsor; he should be constantly grateful for your mere presence in his life and working toward becoming someone who gives and gives instead of asking and taking.

Somber, I am angry on your behalf. I think you have gotten much wisdom here from others.

I want you to look at your husband's behavior for the self-centeredness and immaturity it displays. We don't give adults gold stars for brushing their teeth. We don't give abusers gold stars for not abusing. This is expected and required adult behavior. His need for affirmation and attention is childish at best and narcissistic at worst.

And he is playing the victim with blame shifting and gaslighting. This is abuse. I want you to consider the hostility in your husband's behavior. It's still to protect his fragile ego and to evade personal responsibity.

When I let myself really accept that my husband was immature AND hostile, I saw his behavior in a different light.

Here's what I say to my husband:

"You need to be re-assuring me. I don't need to re-assure you. You were the betrayer."

And, finally, expecting sex or physical contact for a reward for everything is still evidence of addictive thinking. It's like they want an eroticized mommy. I have no desire to have sex with a whiny, crybaby who is so needy. And I've told my husband that.

Your husband needs to get to the point that he understands recovering is his job and needed to save himself and others. He needs to sober up about recovery. It took my husband a year to accept he was addicted and another year to get that recovery wasn't something he was doing for me, but doing for himself.

It took him longer to accept that he needs to make amends and develop empathy and caring.

After six years, what I can say is that the self-centeredness seems to be the thing most resistant to change in my husband. That does not make for a promising future.

And, Somber, I had to look at why I got hooked into these messages. Why in the world did some part of me believe I would need to make a cake upon my husband's return from SA rehab. My individual therapy has helped me with all of this. It's an immense relief to no longer believe these things and to no longer slave away at taking care of an immature, abusive man. I didn't even realize I was doing that, but now I do. I don't do it anymore.

Be gentle with yourself.

ashestophoenix

[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 8:05 AM, November 11th (Monday)]

Thank you all for your support, kindness, shared experiences and advice.

I go back and forth between recognizing emotional abuse, thinking he is manipulating me or gaslighting me (all things my therapist has named for me from the way he has acted). Then I feel bad, like I am wrong to label him this way, that he isn’t such things...sometimes it appears he acts more normal and together than I do. That makes me feel like I am the one struggling so maybe I am the one with the problem...

Second time, that is how I think we are to be supportive. I honestly don’t think much more should be expected of us. I didn’t want to celebrate our anniversary either, I didn’t get a card, I asked him to not get me anything, explained that we aren’t in a place to celebrate our marriage. And well he booked a surprise trip for the two of us.

Marji, just thinking of throwing a cake in his face makes me smile! Thanks for that. I do have supportive people in my life but I often find myself isolating myself from them as well. I feel so alone but I create that loneliness myself sometimes.

A lot of people know my husband is an alcoholic and was in rehab but no one knows of the SA.

So his rehab was for alcohol BTW, not yet SA rehab. But he hasn’t stayed sober from alcohol so I don’t know to trust that he would be from SA behaviours. He has indirectly blamed me for starting drinking as he quit for x amount of days I his life didn’t change so what’s the point...I imagine SA would be the same although that addiction has been much more hidden. It took me being a detective to find that out and I don’t want to search anymore.

We don't give abusers gold stars for not abusing. This is expected and required adult behavior. His need for affirmation and attention is childish at best and narcissistic at worst.

Yes but he sure expects gold stars (sex, bj, allowing him to grope me) and yes he expects it for not abusing me or being sober I suppose. In his mind it’s for buying me things, doing nice things, etc.

Thank you all again, I will reread these responses. I certainly need more IC to get through this. He has a long process ahead too but I don’t think he wants to put in the work. He does say he hates his life sober and wants to drink...not a great sign. He has been hiding booze but some days sober and trying to prove himself to me...then other days the opposite.

Somber, my stomach got tight and I felt stress levels rise reading your post. I know that tune. That's an addict wanting credit for doing what he's supposed to do. That's lack of humility and empathy. In no other world but an addict or abuser's mind can you trash everything and everyone in your life and turn up being a decent human for one day and want a party in your honor. It would be like me beating my child 364 days per year and being nice on Christmas day and wanting gratitude for that. It's a sign of abuse and addiction. That's who he is. Can he change? No idea. He definitely isn't in his right mind today. That's all you know. This is what you're dealing with, a big entitled baby.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:42 AM, November 11th (Monday)]

So overwhelming to navigate this and know where I fit in it all and what I should have done, should do...

If we separate it is going to be crazy!!!

(((Somber))) your WS sounds a lot like my STBX. I threw in my ALL after D-Day 2. I fell back in love with him again only to be thrown under the bus 2 years later. My STBX never put in the work that I would have liked to have seen from him. When False R hit I completely shut down. We separated temporarily right after that and then he lovebombed me back. I detached when I saw that he stopped putting in the work again. It was still all about him and his victimhood. The world was against him. Of course my detachment sent him in the opposite direction claiming he withdrew from the M a year ago because I didn’t put in any work. And I didn’t so now that is his M.O. that our M is ending because I didn’t put in the work

Don’t let him mindfuck you. My STBX will never be willing to admit that his treatment of me and the many A’s were the cause for the beginning of the end. I have to ignore his version constantly and keep telling myself my version. And yes separating has made it crazier to deal with him, but oh so peaceful and revitalizing when he’s not there.

In no other world but an addict or abuser's mind can you trash everything and everyone in your life and turn up being a decent human for one day and want a party in your honor

Yes I guess your all right with this one!

I came home from work in yoga pants (I change into work clothes at work) and he requests that until things are better between us, if they ever get better, can I please stop wearing tight yoga pants. Then asks to just touch my ass. Then when i ask him to stop, saying it’s uncomfortable and objectifying, he stops and rolls his eyes.

My head hurts!! That’s for sure.

And yes separating has made it crazier to deal with him, but oh so peaceful and revitalizing when he’s not there.

Thanks, it’s something to think about.

I just found hidden alcohol bottles

I am fearful of separating and that side of him; I am also fearful of staying the same, I’m fearful of going backwards and also fearful of abandonment. I’m fearful sharing time with my kids and the unpredictable behaviour of his...I am afraid of every move!! I feel very stuck!!

Well, let's start with your fear of abandonment. Aren't you already feeling abandoned? He's abandoning you in your face. That ship has sailed.

fear of abandonment. Aren't you already feeling abandoned? He's abandoning you in your face. That ship has sailed.

^^Yep I can totally relate to this. I am still going through cognitive dissonance. I'm assuming this gets better when you don't have to see them face to face anymore. Whenever I feel like I'm alone and abandoned I have to remind myself that I have already been alone and abandoned for the most of the M.

I'm assuming this gets better when you don't have to see them face to face anymore.

It does. It also gets better when you reframe it.

Infidelity and addiction hand out abandonment wounds like candy. Most everyone has abandonment wounds. All of us have already had acid poured into those wounds. That's a done deal. Even being the one who leaves doesn't necessarily eliminate that. When I left, I was leaving someone who wasn't capable of giving a shit about me as a human. My humanity had been discarded. That mental dialogue of how you aren't worth anything to them or they wouldn't do XYZ is brutal. The only thing to do is accept it. No, you aren't worth that to them. No one is. Some of these men cannot care about another human sufficiently period. You aren't really special to them and you know it. You may be more special to them than to anyone but themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's empathy directed towards you or that you'll be treated well.

When you reframe it to see that you love yourself enough to not tolerate this treatment from another human being, that helps the most. Why put his feelings over your own? So what that you weren't important enough to him for him to act like a decent human being? He is definitely not important enough to me for me to martyr my mental health. He's not more special than I am to me and most certainly not more special to me than my children are. Therefore, I left.

Yes DevastatedDee, I am feeling abandoned. I suppose the feeing of abandonment is intermittent and without lifestyle change for myself and the kids. I like your reframing of it all...

Why we put their feelings over our own??? I think partly because they demand it and manipulate situations so their feelings are always before ours. Not sure. I am sure that I am feeling sicker and sicker staying!!!!

Whenever I feel like I'm alone and abandoned I have to remind myself that I have already been alone and abandoned for the most of the M.

So true. Crazyblindsided, You are doing IHS right? That must be so challenging. When do see the opportunity for your own place? Stay strong, that would be so difficult.

Persoanlly speaking, I decided to start mentally disconnecting completely.

My husband was doing the blame-shifting and gaslighting...no empathy. Since I filed, hes out every night on the weekends...searching for supply. He didnt want to accept that his going out triggered me to start snooping....he deflected and claimed the reason he hides is because I blow up?!

These men dont get well...they have personality disorders...What helped me the most was watching and reading about narcs and the abuse cycle...they dont get worse, they escalate...the more I watch, the more validated I felt in my decision.

I fear he will escalate his altercations with violence. The last one was the moment of clarity in regards to what this character is capable of. They arent stable at all and capable of anything. They have little to no control over their emotions, which is deeply rooted in anger. He burned a bridge and now all bets are off, in terms of self control...his REAL self has been revealed...not enough crazy glue to fix this type of broken. He knows its beyond damage control, thus the escalation....this is out of fear of exposure. You mix this with a lack of empathy, theres no telling what he will do, to keep his outward image going.

My DH's cousin was arrested on charges of prostitution right before my DH's cousin passed away.

My husband's cousin was not the brightest tool in the shed. If HE could figure out how to hire a prostitute, then my husband totally could, too. All things given, it seems more reasonable that a sex addict would have hired a prostitute over a joe-schmoe.

Here's the bad part, though. This is starting to get fairly intrusive for me. OK, super intrusive. My DH is also very cagey about what whom he finds attractive, and of course, he can't remember which moms at school he's fantasized about...even though he's only been sober for 2.5 years.

But, I'm wondering if I posed as him and set up some meetings with prostitutes what would he do? Would he be honest and mention that suddenly he's getting propositioned that he legit knows nothing about? Or would he keep it a secret and go through with meeting the women? If he was selective about the women, that would give me data on who he finds attractive. Plus, I would also get real data on where he is in his recovery. And I might be able to suss out whether or not he's lied more about his sexual past.

There's part of me that is like "this is WAY better than a poly" and part of me that is like WTF.

Mostly, I just need a space to get this out. I spin worse when I'm on computers, I'm super stressed, and I don't sleep. I have a planned day of self-care, and I don't want to ruin that too much. So, I will likely stay away from here and the computer in general.

But, I'm wondering if I posed as him and set up some meetings with prostitutes what would he do? Would he be honest and mention that suddenly he's getting propositioned that he legit knows nothing about? Or would he keep it a secret and go through with meeting the women? If he was selective about the women, that would give me data on who he finds attractive. Plus, I would also get real data on where he is in his recovery. And I might be able to suss out whether or not he's lied more about his sexual past.

I think you need to ask yourself if this kind of stuff is what you want to be doing in a marriage. I think you need to listen to the part of yourself that says "WTF", lol.

Seriously though, this is a sign that you are focused too much on him and not enough on you and what kind of situation you find tolerable. If you're really so suspicious of his loyalty that you'd test him like this, that isn't good, you know?

secondtime, I think wanting to test his honesty says that you're working overtime, trying to accept the reality of who this man is, while knowing what he is already capable of. Normal response, yet, lift your sights a bit and look into how you'd either be reassured or not, if he were to "pass" this one particular test by telling you. Being honest about it would be positive, yet it still wouldn't mean he'd never fall to some other temptation some time in the future, long after you concluded he was on the right track. In other words, such a test wouldn't really give you that much useful reassurance, would it?

It would be an easier life if we could believe them, when they promise never to do what they've already shown us they could and would do. Not sure that is realistic, though.

DashboardMadonna, LOL! "Not enough crazy glue to fix this kind of broken." OMG!! Poetic.

Secondtime-

I literally just watched a video by Sam Vaknin, in regards go "narc amnesia"...

They change their stories so much, to fit a narrative that portrays perfection. These men always claim they dont remember and so on. Sam also goes on to speak of how they will even change their childhood stories, creating a childhood, where the mother is a saint...ie. "madonna"...

When they get old and burn a lot of bridges (their wives up and run), they realize older broads, like myself, arent going to look too kindly at the fact that they have shit relationships with their mothers etc...

In terms of what my husband finds attractive; anything and everything that isnt me... honestly, they haven't any limits or taste in women...its about what better serves them and this is where prostitutes come in.

He had a musician "friend" (they haven't real friends) that married an Asian mail-order bride and I cant help but think this triggered my husbands deep seeded envy, fueling his entitlement to take advantage of massage parlors...he use to call asain women "fortune cookies"... it's disgusting....just total objectification, while making me feel minuscule.

When it comes to prostitution, they see them as beneath themselves and that is what turns them on (madonna-whore etc.)....they are misogynists. It is deep seeded anger stemming from the relationship (or lack there of) with their shitty mothers.

These men hate their mothers and the vast portion of them, will not allow you to talk ill of their shitty mothering skills.

My husband claimed he was close to his mother (gaslighting his reality)....its a fucking lie, she was a drug addict that chased abusive men...all in the name of dick. Her father was a known pedophile, so she chased tons of shitty men, while scoring drugs.

I'll say it and say it again; if his mother wasn't already dead, I'd knock her teeth out for raising such a POS. With that, his father isnt any better...hes a neglectful covert...much like my husband. My husband got enjoy listening to his father make his stepmother grunt like a pig, in the bedroom, as a kid.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 12:05 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

DashboardMadonna Wow I could have written the same thing except my STBX hates his mom but still visits her in a home and you can’t say anything about his childhood and I can’t stand my MIL she is a true non empathetic bitch.

I believe my STBX is also a misogynist for the exact reasons you stated above!

Crazy-

His mother died of lung cancer at about 40....she had no real relationship with her kids...it seemed forced, as whe was very stand-offish, in general.

When she died, she was supposedly off the drugs, but the damage was already done. My husband doesnt say much about his mother, other than how they were "close"....

Hes a broken man, that seeks comfort in nothing but the broken. He refuses to realize his irony, that everyone he fucks, marries etc., have childhoods that run parallel to his. He is his abusers and just perpetuates it through the generations. I believe I nipped this in the bud, in terms of our son...

It's a level of sick that has me wake up in a jolt, through the night. He made his bed, now he can lie and die in it. I will never speak to him again...I haven't any reason to...our son is long grown. He will probably go the route of mail-order bride...someone seeking a green card. Any mature woman with half a brain, would pick up on his freak flag.

In saying that, I wonder if his musician buddy is the same person...going mail-order ties in with trafficing....go figure. The sick always congregate together...bottom feeding mentality.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 3:34 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

Thanks all. I know my thoughts were dumb. I still had quite a nice day despite everything.

I've already told DH that the lying about the slips is a likely a deal breaker. I'm not ready to separate, yet, and it's bad timing. I can't work two jobs, go to school, and shuttle four kids around town on "my" days by myself.

I know I can't really trust him. Even though he actually has been fairly trustworthy and incredibly reliable. When he's working his recovery of course.

Second-

Definately finish your school, first....how much longer do you have?!

Per usual, I'm doing shit backward. I am addressing my ADD and hoping to get on meds, so I can attempt some sort of schooling. I'm really at a loss. The thought of depending on alimony scares the shit out of me...I dont trust him at all....he seems pretty adamant about blowing his life up...its not a secure feeling.