SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No contact serves a very important purpose. It allows you to heal without triggers or the impossible detonation of seeing her. It is a statement of your partner's continued remorse and respect for the injury he has given you. It is a final, unequivocal message to the AP that she has no place in your future life.

Your husband's one job should be protecting you from further injury by being exposed to her in any way.

Has he not written her a NC letter? Generally, it's recommended he write a letter saying what they did was cruel and thoughtless to you, and he only wants now to try and make it up to you. He doesn't want to see her, hear from her in any way and will not engage with her on any level. He gives you the letter to read and approve (see if it helps you feel comfortable, safe and more trusting.) He signs it. You put it in the envelope, seal it and mail it.

It's never a slam dunk and over. You still have to monitor and ask and there might be an occasion like the one you described above. But at least it will make your husband take it more seriously, too.

We have discussed him getting a new job, but the cost/benefit analysis isn't great

Applying logic to what is basically a non-logical situation. Well… one created by non-logical events.
The costs are not necessarily relocating or affecting the kids. If those were really the costs you dread then why not accept he has affairs? After all – the cost of dealing with them won’t come well out of a cost/benefit analysis – refusing to let him have his fun MIGHT lead to you having to relocate or MIGHT affect the kids...
Seriously – if the ultimate "cost" isn’t the risk of losing the marriage and if the ultimate "benefit" isn’t the marriage itself then you have to rethink the whole thing IMHO.

Dealing with infidelity ALWAYS should have divorce as the ultimate "cost" or the work required to reconcile as the ultimate "cost". What you are describing is the dreaded limbo. IMHO that is the absolute worst place a marriage can be.

There are couples here on SI who have managed reconciliation despite ongoing contact. I don’t think a single one of them would chime in with it being ideal. I think R is incredibly hard, and some of your comments make me think that maybe you are unknowingly trying to run this marathon while dressed in a suit of armor and dragging a grand piano.

My suggestions:
Don’t THINK og GUESS her husband knows. Contact him and have the discussion. Does he know? How does HE feel about his wife and her OM working together? Who knows – maybe he will pressure her to leave the job. Do this without your husbands knowledge or acceptance.

Make it clear to your husband that the ongoing contact is preventing you from fully reconciling. Ask him what he is willing to do to give your more assurances.

Get a clear answer to why he has to be involved in the office drama. After all he’s not a manager and not in her group. Is it a voluntary involvement or is there a real business or management reason for it? He does NOT have to be part of the argument if the Christmas party is at the Hilton or the Marriott or if Jane in bookkeeping really insulted Dave in the storeroom.

I think people work harder at saving things if they have a realistic idea of the options. You mention relocating, financial troubles and an elderly family member. Well… keep this in mind: IF you can’t accept him being in contact with OW then this can very likely end in divorce. That can be in the next months or maybe years from now when your marriage is so saturated with resentment you won’t even remember why you are filing. At that time the family member might be deceased and the kids long flown the coop. Or not.
However… with kids, a length of marriage and all that… IF this ends in the Big D you are entitled to child support, alimony and a fair division of assets.
I AM NOT ENCOURAGING YOU TO DIVORCE!

But I am encouraging you to be realistic about what you are dealing with and the possible outcomes. Maybe once you both realize the options it makes the cost/benefits analysis a bit more sensible.

17 years later, my H STILL works with his OW, though not closely. They're in different departments and only have to have business contact about once a month. I don't think I would have been on board with him staying at that job if he had to talk with her every day or if the company was small.

Two months after DDay and one month into R, we had a HUGE fight because he wanted to wish her a happy birthday if they happened to pass each other in the hall, and I didn't want him to initiate any contact whatsoever. He said he just wanted to return to a normal coworker relationship with her. We fought about this for days, until our MC session.

The MC finally got through his thick skull. He said, "You can't treat her like you would treat your other coworkers. You didn't FUCK your other coworkers." Lightbulb moment. I also told him that he could choose to be nice to her at my expense, or he could choose to build my trust. His decision. He skipped the break room cake and skipped "HBD" in the hall.

He told me about attempted contact from the OW and forwarded me any emails that she sent to him. She was like BreakingBad's OW. She tried for a full year to get his attention, telling him via email that she "missed her friend" and asked if they could just talk as friends. He copied me on his reply and told her no, they can't be friends, and that he'd been forwarding me everything that she sent to him. She still tried from time to time, in person, but it eventually stopped because H didn't give her the response she wanted. ETA: And because we told her that she needed to get checked for herpes. That'll shut it down QUICK, lemme tell you. lol

I think she still carries a torch for him, based on her Pinterest. I don't worry about it, though, because H did a lot of hard work to affair-proof himself. Counseling, telling me when she attempted contact, telling me when he fucked up once and stood and talked to her for a couple of minutes after she stopped him in the parking lot. He truly thought I'd eat him alive when that happened, but because he immediately fronted himself out, it wasn't as traumatic as it could have been. I LIKED that he knew he messed up. I liked that he rebuffed her. I liked that he told her that he came back to me because he loved me, not because it was the best thing for the kids. I liked that she got shot down repeatedly. Anyway...

If they're being transparent and accountable and showing the BS in other ways that they take rebuilding trust very seriously, it can work. However, if the BS decides that it's a deal-breaker, then that's that.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 5:31 PM, Monday, November 1st]

Apologizing in advance for the t/j:

You can't treat her like you would treat your other coworkers. You didn't FUCK your other coworkers.

This is gold.

I still chuckle to myself when I remember the look on H's face when MC said it!

My FWH has NC....but I run into OW all.the.time in our small community. We have a plan of what we'll do as a couple when and if we encounter the other folks.....politely ignore, show massive amounts of PDA to each other, check in, stay or leave depending on how we feel at the time, etc. It's worked well when that happens when we're together.
I DO run into OW far more often on my own. Some days, it is no big deal. Some days, it is terrible.
I like the transparency that you spoke of. I don't know how far out you are, but do you feel safe? I think that is the kicker. What is he doing to make you feel safe in these situations? Is he showing up for you?

but it was also clear that he didn't see cutting off all contact with his affair partner as reasonable or necessary. His perspective was that as long as each of them was being completely transparent with their spouses they could go back to a level of friendship that would allow them to have a collegial professional relationship

Hard no.

I'm sorry - that would be deal breaker territory for me.

And...as others have said...if the OBS does not know, they should be informed immediately. Don't let anyone know you are doing this as they will have a way of talking you out of it.

I 100% understand where you are. I was there.

On DDay, I discovered inappropriate communication with my H and his peer. They were both executives in a small company. This meant they worked together constantly, had many of the same meetings, and traveled internationally and domestically a LOT. He told me a lie of a timeline and that there was one kiss at the end of a business trip. I sent her husband a FB message that day. I kicked him out as well. When he asked if he could come home, I demanded that he quit or figure out a way to not be in the office with her and cut all ties with her. (She incidentally did not HAVE an office because she came later, so she was always in his. ). We had a conference call with her husband that week. (Who she also lied to, as he said that he would sue my husband if she had to change her work schedule and that "I trust my wife."). I relented on the immediate quitting because I am a SAHM and for him to quit immediately would have been hard (plus he had 1001 excuses that ranged from feeling guilty about his other co-workers to $).

When he returned to work a week later, she was still coming into his office for meetings and they would still go out to office lunches. I was in such a messed up state that I didn't know which way was up. When I figured out that this was all happening, mostly because I asked to see his work computer and found chat messages between them (that he had googled how to erase BTW but couldn't), I sent him some articles from the healing library and told him to have a no contact call. Which I was going to listen to. And that he could not be alone with her/talk to her period. That NC call was complete bullshit as he told her I was listening and then they both acted like it was obvious that they couldn't talk.

For two more years they worked together and it was HARD. We had a laundry list of boundaries that he had to abide by in order to alleviate my panic attacks. (No travel with her, no alone meetings, I saw every communication between them, had access to his chats, no conferences, no work events, etc. It was a LOT and he basically became a hermit in an office and company he helped to build.) She never let up. Went into his office all of the time, asked him to travel, tried to gain sympathy if she had some kind of ailment, sent him notes and gave him treats for his Bday, arranged a SHIT ton of happy hours and events and travel (which is how they started fucking around). But after he started getting his head out of his ass, he saw the relationship for what it was and avoided her.

I still could not move forward as she was also starting to take over things that were not in here job description - like HR. She began trying to control the way he did things, asked for one one ones to talk with him, etc. Thankfully he was senior to her and could ignore all of those and make rules for how he worked - most people don't have that freedom. I told him he needed to quit or I was done. He started looking, told his CEO, and then basically the company and board begged him to stay and made it so he never had to go into the office or do anything with her. (His boss was told about the A.) She got wind of this and wanted her own deal. Unfortunately for her, she wasn't that necessary, so she didn't get special treatment and quit.
When she left, she also took a job halfway across the country. (Super helpful since she lived a few miles from my sister and I always panicked about running into her.)

The level of anxiety I had daily dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. (Even though it took her a few months to actually disappear from our city - she made sure to try and get a few more meetings with him, and sweetly sent him a personal "goodbye" email and made sure he had her new contact info. ). It was really lovely. And for five months, her being out of the office and company and having no claws in him felt wonderful to both of us. We were great.

So great that he eventually disclosed a physical affair with her. And the truth. That she had continued to come in to ask him why he just "tossed her aside", and when other people would drop off conference calls, she would ask him to stay on the line so she could tell him how hard it was on her and how much she missed him. And that on DDay 1, when he was in a hotel, he had an hour long cover up call with her where she offered to come and pick him up to "be with him". She wanted him to leave me.

It all made sense after that. And I DEEPLY regret allowing them to work together. I truly believe that I delayed my own healing all to keep him from feeling consequences and shame. I will never again put fear ahead of what my gut tells me is right. YMMV. I'm sorry you have to deal with this and I hope you find a way through. For what it's worth, both WH and I look back and wish he'd left then. We would be MUCH farther along than we are now and his job isn't his identity anymore anyways, which was a lesson he needed to learn in order to find his way back to his core values.

I can only tell you my experience: my WH continued to work with his AP for two and a half years past dday.

WH could not easily get another job (although not impossible) without losing some income, I then lost my job, it felt that it was getting for bad to worse for me on all fronts and keeping his stable job was a sensible option.

WH had absolutely no reason to interact with AP. They previously met on a project that, once the affair came to light, WH handed over to someone else and their reason for any work interaction ended there and then. Big company with 500 employees in the same building (thousands nationwide).

WH also told his line manager about the affair and his line manager ensured they never attended a meeting together again, he told her line manager they cannot work together again, it only happened once that my WH joined a virtual meeting she also attended (although she wasn’t on the invite) and he dialled off immediately and informed his manager who ensured it will not ever happen again. HR was also informed.

WH spent all that time reporting any sightings or potential interaction (such as when he dialled on the meeting mentioned above and he saw her name as a participant and dialled off), any time he went to the office canteen he would call me and stay on the line. If he bumped into her by any chance, going to grab a drink or going to a meeting he’d call me and tell me about it, or when he joined a couple of all employees events and saw her staring at him he’d text me at the same time. That was our agreement in order to cope.

She used to come on his floor on purpose and pretend she is talking to someone (he’d call me and tell me about it). She also posted all the stuff possible on FB including affair details and I felt I couldn’t back away from checking it as she was still working with him and I needed to see what she’s up to. She also reported herself any sightings by making comments such as how my WH looks covered in guilt and it eats at him. She had threatening behaviours at points which again made me feel unsafe if I didn’t keep an eye on her SM (which we later reported to the police when she got specific enough and I felt really unsafe). She used to check his outlook diary and make up stuff based on it until he realised and made his diary private.

Anyway this was the dynamic with a WH who willingly reported every move that had anything to do with her and wanted her out of his life.

IT WAS HELL!

I work too and each minute of the day I couldn’t concentrate. I wondered if that specific moment in time was the moment they were having coffee behind my back laughing at my stupidity. Despite all my WH’s reassuring actions my trauma response was so raw, I used to have panic attacks at the thought of them casually saying hello in the hallway. I had absolutely no opportunity to shut the door on her and start healing as she also lives in our area so I had to look over my shoulder if I went to the shopping centre so it was a constant feeling of being under attack, during office hours I still felt she "had" my husband (this was an office hours affair) even if he was constantly accountable and reassuring, at the weekend I constantly looked over my shoulder in case she was anywhere I went.

No doubt some things got magnified in my head as I perceived her as an intruder from the beginning so I am not exaggerating when I say I felt I was always exposed and I was waiting for the next kick in the gut.

Besides this, when I had a good(ish) day and managed to focus on healing, suddenly WH would call to say there has been a sighting or that she’s done something. Or she’d post something she found in WH’s diary and push me over the edge (she once pretended she was with him at a health assessment which he had in his diary, he didn’t attend the appointment but she didn’t know that. That was about two years post dday, yes she was that crazy).

So my advice: change jobs if feasible. Think what’s more important, your mental health or your husband’s job. On the plus the ow in your story may not be so focused on you and wanting to cause misery however on the down side you have a WH on your hands that doesn’t even understand the importance of no contact (mine didn’t either for a while until she turned on him and then he wished her dead) so if he believes he can still say hello and be friendly then I can’t see how you’ll succeed at R, frankly I’d wonder every time we argue if that’s the day ow will be extra sweet and WH extra angry to engage in the affair again.

The ow in my case was made redundant at the beginning of the pandemic. She upped her game big time pre departure including getting a job in a team my WH worked with directly and the manager of that team had no clue about the A, she turned up at work one day sitting two desks away from him and posted on FB about how she "won". That didn’t last long (long story, WH ended up working from home and her moved to a different part of the building, the trial ended and they decided the role wasn’t suitable), thank God she left. I can tell you that I did not understand the importance of cutting all ties completely including changing jobs until that day. Regardless if the WH is on board with NC or not changing jobs enables healing faster in my view. I’ve lost 2 and a half year focusing on this woman, on WH’s sightings of her, of my heart racing when meeting WH for lunch as part of our reconstruction work (yup she checked his diary and decided to show up and make her presence known a number of times), instead of focusing on my own healing more.

For your sake I would say ask him to change jobs.

Our stories are a good representation of "Don't shit where you eat." Good lord.

Luna10

. each minute of the day I couldn’t concentrate.

Reminds me of someone telling you to not think about an elephant for the next 10 minutes. So you spend the next 10 minutes thinking around an elephant, which really is more exhausting than just thinking about the elephant. Not-thinking is hard.

The OW is more a part of your daily life now than anyone else not actually in your family. Whew.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 9:01 PM, Tuesday, November 2nd]

The OW is more a part of your daily life now than anyone else not actually in your family. Whew.

Exactly!

I have big memory gaps about my kids’ childhood and experiences post dday but I can tell you everything about her posts on FB, every encounter we (ow and I) had when meeting my WH for lunch and all the times she pretended to do something evil just to unsettle us.

I can’t tell you if it was worth it or not (to remain married even if WH continued to work with his AP) because we are in a pretty good place. I will admit that her constant assault on our relationship and WH rising up to the challenge by finding new ways to provide reassurance and never wavering (FaceTime during meetings, FaceTime if he was one minute late leaving the office, being on the phone with me EVERY DAY for two years when going to get his lunch from the canteen and the list can go on) did bring us together somehow as we became a team against her.

But I’m sure I would have healed so much faster if she wasn’t ALWAYS there in my head due to her constant presence in our lives.

She’s still present in my mind at the weekend briefly. The fact that now I have peace and I did shut the door on her the moment she left that workplace, enabled me to focus on healing, to process who she actually is, and now, during weekends when there is a true chance to run into her, I just make sure I never leave the house without feeling confident about the way I look. But that’s it, just a fleeting thought of "if I bump into her it will be her loss seeing me".

Thank you all. I've been very busy with work and life, but I've been reading your replies and they are helpful and give me a lot of food for thought. I especially appreciate those of you who have experienced your spouse working with their affair partner. It gives me a lot to consider.

In our situation, my husband changing jobs is more complicated than it is for most people. It is good to be pushed on that by you all so that I don't lose sight of it as an option, but it's a judgement I've made based on what would be risked and gained for me, for my children, and for my long term practical and emotional well-being. I don't see myself changing that judgement unless something significant changes in the situation.

You've all brought up issues with the woman's husband that have made me realize that I might be naive in my assumptions about what he knows. My husband and I were both worried in the months after the affair came to light about whether she was lying or misrepresenting things to him, and my husband actually wrote him an apology letter last spring. It was not super explicit or detailed, but it was heartfelt and direct, and we both figured it was an opportunity for her husband to ask questions if he hadn't been told the truth. His reply was kind, but vague, and we took it as him wanting his privacy and not wanting further discussion (who could blame him?). The situation has always felt a little off, though, and all of your comments make me realize that she may have spun this in a way that covered her ass and made my husband and/or I look crazy. I am mulling over how best to address this. He is a good person from what I can tell, and he deserves to make informed choices about his relationship.

Mostly, though, I just appreciate being able to talk a little bit. Dealing with this for over a year and having no one to talk to has been so lonely and hard.

I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to imply that my husband's going NC made it easy. No, he didn't see her, but there was pressure from people because she was my sister-in-law - my brother's wife - and he died about five years after the A.

Nobody understands NC that hasn't been experienced infidelity. Nephews, cousins, even one of my sons wanted me to forgive and make nice. It was bad enough that I had to see her at the memorial services (really bad - I would vomit, cry, wring my hands), but they would ask if my husband would come. Thank God my husband always said flat, "No," when the possibility of his being present came up although if he'd said anything else I would've squashed it and maybe him.

It probably would've been the final straw and undo our reconciliation altogether if he had wanted to go. I never felt 'fortunate' about this aspect until now. Great fortune. It's just a great big sh-t sandwich.

[This message edited by merrmeade at 9:13 AM, Thursday, November 4th]

A NC letter means nothing, when the WS thinks he can be friends with the AP after dday. Especially when they work together. A BS has no way to verify the affair has even ended, as long as they work together. Sure, the WS will say it has. But considering all the lies they told during the affair, it would be ill advised to believe them.

I'm almost scared to post anything for fear of jinxing our situation but my D day was a little over 4 years ago. My wife and the AP still work together, but in a very limited way. She works at a medical clinic but for a different provider than the AP. She does occasionally have to interact with him but she is supposed to let me know every time and be fully transparent about the entire situation. They have shuffled things up a few times at the clinic and there was a chance that they would end up in the same clinic and, when we discussed it and I told her I was NOT okay with it she agreed that IF it happened she would explain the situation to the Office Manager and if they wouldn't change either party she would look for another job. We have been lucky enough that it hasn't happened so hopefully our luck will hold.

Looking back, I don't think it was the right decision to allow her to continuing working with him though. When I found out about the affair, she agreed to a NC but I had discovered after about a month of me thinking that we were working on our marriage I was completely blindsided AGAIN after I ran her apple account through recovery software that she had never broke contact with him. I was so angry and done that I didn't really care anymore and my logic was that:

1)she wasn't fully committed to ending the affair and working on our marriage and it was just a matter of time before I caught them again or she gave up and just finally admitted she no longer wanted to be with me and no matter where she worked there would probably be men there and it would just be a matter of time before it happened again with someone else

2)she really was done with him and it wouldn't matter

As far as I know she is doing what she is supposed to be doing and seems to be much more present in our marriage. I feel like after 4 years with no warning signs it's not fair for me to ask her to leave at this point but I still watch closely and if I see anything that gives me a bad feeling we talk about it and she knows that she has to do whatever it takes to help me be comfortable.

But, If I could go back I absolutely would have made her quit the day I found out. I didn't realize how similar affairs are to drugs and how we were taking unnecessary risks by making it easier for them to interact. For addicts, getting past that first phase is the toughest part because the rush is still fresh on their minds. But after that memory fades it becomes much easier to abstain, but the problem is maintaining it forever. An alcoholic can't have an occasional drink because they know that if they take one drink it is just a matter of time before they fall back into their old ways. My wife knows that all it takes is one friendly comment or joke in that hall to derail 4 years of hard work towards a healthy marriage.

Another thing to consider is what would your situation be if he keeps his job and you divorce him? Would you be better or worse off than if quit his job and tried to find a new one? For example, if he keeps his job, are you likely to get a decent settlement and child support, or would it cause greater hardship than if he quit?

One of my ex’s OW was a coworker, and these questions definitely factored into my mental calculus when I was weighing staying or going. In my case, I had reason to suspect that if he quit he simply wouldn’t work out of spite, which opened the possibility of me being on the hook for spousal support.

As others have said, it’s really untenable to attempt R with someone who is working with an AP. I was constantly imagining what they were saying and doing. I did not want to be the wife who was demanding calls and texts all the time and pictures of his surroundings.
To make matters worse, he worked nights and I worked days so we already had little time together and I was losing precious sleep with anxiety.

I think that if your husband wants to reconcile and rebuild your marriage, he will find a way to extricate himself from the OW a permanently. He might not be able to do so immediately but his mindset should be firmly in the "How do I get myself into a situation where my wife feels safe?" rather than "How do I get my wife to tolerate my situation?"

I am mulling over how best to address this. He is a good person from what I can tell, and he deserves to make informed choices about his relationship.

I think most folks on SI would say that you just do it, and you do NOT consult or otherwise speak to your WH about it (it seems to be a pretty common thing for the WS to give the AP a heads up, and/or the AP to paint a story to the OBS about the WS/BS being crazy and just trying to stir up crap - not saying that's what's going on for you specifically.... just saying it IS a thing and many are blindsided, hence the advice to do it w/o giving your WH any kind of a heads up. If the WS is upset about that, it's really part of the consequences of the A and putting you into such a position to begin with - KWIM?)

duplicate

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:08 AM, Saturday, November 6th]

To add to GMC's advice, one immediate benefit of giving the full story to OW's husband without providing your WH a heads up in advance is that you will find out whether or not your husband is still talking to her and the current state of their relationship.

If he confronts you for talking to her husband and gets upset or angry at you for it, then you know without even asking him that you've blown the lid off an active affair.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:48 AM, Saturday, November 6th]