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Mrs. Walloped,

No, sorry. This is inappropriate. Happy Valentines Day to you and Walloped.

[This message edited by humantrampoline at 9:18 AM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Hi goingsolo1,

do you trigger? And have there been occasions when you triggered while being intimate with your husband? If yes then how have you handled it as an individual and as a couple?

Of course I do! And there have been many times I’ve triggered when we’ve been intimate. Same with him. We didn’t go through hysterical bonding, so the first time we had sex after DDay was about seven months later. It was super emotional and didn’t go very well. I’ve cried in the middle, I’ve asked him to stop, he’s had to stop, he’s pushed me off him, I’ve stopped moving but just hugged him and cried in his chest. Sometimes we talk it through, sometimes we go back to what we were doing and sometimes we don’t. We talk a lot about it beforehand (not so much anymore, it’s a lot better than earlier). He was worried how I’d react if he triggered and I felt the same way. My emotions are all over the place when we have sex. I’m so happy he wants me and that he wants to be close to me, I want to do this for him, I want to make him happy, I want to take away his pain, I want him to forget for just a little bit so he could be at peace, I’m scared of losing him, it feels good, I feel horrible about my affair, I wonder if he’s thinking about me and my AP. I know I sound like a mess! Sex is more than just a release for me I guess. And because of that I trigger sometimes. My therapist said that I should just enjoy it and stop thinking so much. Have fun sex too, not just emotional sex. And we do. I’ve actually gotten a lot better at just being present with him when we have sex and being close with him. Being intimate with him and all that entails. Sorry. Long answer. Basically we communicate. Before, during and after sex. We know one of us might trigger and we understand that we may have to stop. We are understanding of each other. That’s how we handle it.

Hi Sanibelredfish,

Also, have you talked about acceptance in the broader context of both him and you? Obviously, I believe he’s accepted you had an A, but can he accept that he’d stay with a partner that had an A? I believe that this is where his high standards for himself and others may be problematic for R. What work is he doing to get to his truth on that question?

Yes, we have. We talk about it a lot. I think your question is what he’s struggling the most with now. He’s a man of integrity. His father was like that too. And because of that he’s very conflicted. Integrity to him means doing what’s right no matter what and not because people will applaud him for it, but because it’s the right thing to do (yes, I need to learn from him). So what’s the “right” thing now? Stay with me and keep his family intact? Be the “better man” and forgive? Or be true to himself and his internal value system? But if he does that and leaves his wife and children then what kind of man is he? He’s not the type to put his own happiness first. He’s the self-sacrificing type. But the other side is what does he think it says about him if he stays? He also connects Acceptance with Condoning and Forgiving. It’s hard to talk to him about this from my perspective because I want him to stay. I don’t want him to leave me and our children. I want him. I want us. But I tell him they’re not connected.

I don’t want to speak for him more than I have. I don’t want him to hate himself if he stays but I don’t want him to hate himself if he leaves either. All I can do is show him that despite what I did he can have a good and happy life with me and our family. But it’s up to him to choose it. I know it’s not fair but this is going to be his choice to make. Please reach out to him to ask him what he’s doing to work through this.

Hi BlueIris,

Some of your answers here were surely painful to admit to W, and even more painful for him to hear. What I want to know is, when he asked something - for the first time, or a repeat/variation of a previously asked question, and it's one of those especially painful truths, how did/do you answer him? Matter-of-factly? Do you hold him? Apologize? How does one show empathy while delivering something you know will cut so deeply?

It’s a good question. I can only tell you what I did. There were two periods for us, the weeks immediately after DDay and then when he moved back after he left for a short period of time. The first time he asked me questions was during a weekend. My answers were very matter of fact with lots of apologies. Lots of crying on my part and some on his. We took lots of breaks. But he didn’t want me anywhere near him. This was when he was trying to get at all the information he could. He was very forceful. Told me I had one chance to be honest and that I shouldn’t worry about if what I said hurt him cause he was already in so much pain. So I did. He asked and I answered.

After we separated for a bit and he came back he’d ask me things over and over again. The way I’d answer was very different. I’d try and hold his hands or hug him. I told him how sorry I was with every answer. But not just a generic I’m sorry. It was always in the context of his question. Here’s an example. He asked me about the places my AP and I would go so I told him once how we would browse at the street book vendor on Broadway in the Upper West Side and then go to an outdoor cafe nearby. I told him that I know he would have loved doing that with me and I’m so sorry I did that with my AP and not him. That it would have been wonderful if we spent the day together like that but now we can’t because I ruined that for him. That I was sorry I shared special moments with my AP that should have only been with him.

When the questions were about sex I’d ask him if he really wanted me to answer them and then I’d apologize for hurting him before I answered. I’d always tell him I love him so much and that I understood if he hated me and how much I wish I could undo everything I did. I did that over and over again. I never got frustrated when he’d ask me something that he asked many times before. I answered every single question like it was the first time he asked it. I never rushed him. Always dropped everything when he wanted to talk to me and always gave him my full attention. No cell phone buzzing or phone ringing took precedence. If I was cooking I lowered the flame. Honestly, I don’t know if I did the right thing or not. Maybe there’s a better way. But all I had to go on was my own thoughts and feelings. I really just wanted to take his pain away and I told him so. I wish it was as easy as kissing a boo-boo to make it go away but it’s not. Not at all.

It is often said here that a WS lacks empathy. What is your take on that? For someone who has been so deeply harmed by your own FOO, is it something you've had to work on? Or is it...I don't know, maybe part of the compartmentalization that seems to be part of the WS SOP?

Funny question for me given the response I got to another answer I gave. That’s okay.

I think it depends on the WS. I think some justify their behavior or excuse it. I think others get a wake up call in some way and fully grasp what they’ve done. I also think that those who truly love their BS, despite their actions indicating they don’t, will react with empathy more than those who have a list of grievances or have a tough marriage. I think I’m an empathetic person. When I volunteered I would see these little boys and girls in the cancer ward and it would tear me up inside. I’d imagine what their parents were going through, I’d imagine how I’d feel if they were my children, I’d marvel at the strength of these children and think what it must be like to know you were so sick and be in so much pain yet be so happy and genuine. What I had to work on was not whether I was empathetic or not, it was my motivation for doing the things I did. I truly cared about those children, but I also cared about me and felt good doing the work I did. Part of my reason for volunteering was to help them but part of it was to help me too.

In my limited experience as a WW I can say I had two things I had to focus on. Me and Walloped. And we were two different things. What I mean is this. He left me alone a lot after DDay. I don’t mean that in a negative way. I mean he was dealing with his issues and he didn’t want me smothering him or love bombing him. So, I worked on me. But I worked on me for him and me. I knew that I couldn’t be what he needed me to be unless I worked on me. Does that make sense? So my way of showing him that I felt his pain and wanted to help him heal was to become the person he deserved by working on myself. At the same time I’d try to take his pain away whenever I could in whatever way I could. For example I knew that one of his struggles was whether I still loved him and whether I desired him and maybe I was really planning on leaving him even though the polygraph showed I never intended to. But I knew that didn’t matter. He was still struggling with that. I wanted to take those fears away from him and to comfort him. He had trouble sleeping because of my affair. I wanted to help him. Before we started having sex again we still slept together. So at night I’d snuggle up to him, I’d kiss his neck, I’d hold him until he peeled my arms off of him, I’d thank him for not leaving me and for giving me one more night with him, I’d apologize and tell him I’m never leaving him. I’d tell him how much I love him and how grateful I was that he was in my life and how important he was to me.

I worked on empathetic dialogue and imagining how my husband felt and writing down all the fears and doubts and what he must be thinking, etc. so I could better understand his pain and what he was going through. But I didn’t work on empathy from a “I don’t have it” point of view. I’m not my mother. Far from it.

I am also wondering if you ever brought up things you remembered without being asked - either to correct a minimization or lie by omission, or even just something you'd remembered that hadn't been addressed before.

I have. Many times. One time it was a big lie. I had broken No Contact a second time and lied about it. It was during all those questions in that weekend I mentioned and Walloped asked me if I called my AP and I said no and that he called me and then I lied about the conversation I had with him. My husband was packing to leave me. He was moving into his brother’s house and I thought for sure he was leaving me for good and this was the separation before the divorce. So I told him I called my AP. I had just found out he was married and had other affairs and I was a wreck but even though I knew I shouldn’t have done it I did. I lied because I was terrified he’d leave me if I told the truth. But he was leaving me anyway. So I told him. I didn’t do a good job of it. Just kind of yelled it out and bawled like a baby and blubbered a lot of apologies. Of course he already knew and was just waiting to see if I was going to be honest or continue to lie.

There were a bunch of other times when I’d remember certain details about things we talked about and places we went and things we did. My husband was hungry for details. He hated hearing them but couldn’t stop himself wanting to know everything. So if I remembered something that I left out or wanted to add I’d tell him. Sometimes they were things like what we ate at a restaurant or the name of the restaurant or what I was wearing and other times it was that we held hands or kissed at a certain place and sometimes it was about sex. I didn’t lie or minimize the sex part. I was honest about positions and how many times, the things I did and let him do and how often I orgasmed. Things like that. But he wanted to know every detail so if we discussed a time when my AP and I had sex and I told him 20 details about it I might have forgotten the 21st. I wasn’t hiding details. But sometimes I remembered additional ones and so I’d tell him. That was hard. There’s no easy way to tell your husband, Honey, I just remembered that time I was telling you about? Well, this other man also pinched my behind and gave me a hickey under my left boob. It was terrible. I don’t know if giving him all those details was healthy for him. For a long time I thought it wasn’t but he said he needed to know and I wasn’t going to not give him what he said he needed from me. But it was very hard on him. I tried to be as close to him as possible to help him process what I was telling him but I know it still killed him inside.

Sorry I went on for so long. I hope my answers were helpful.

Sharkman,

You propose that he should be working on forgiveness. Many couples have successfully been reconciled without forgiveness. Why should he? You said yourself that you are not 100% sure you could never cheat again... should he forgive?

No, I didn’t. I said that he was working on Acceptance and Forgiveness. I never suggested he should. Here’s what I wrote:

He’s going through his own issues regarding Acceptance and Forgiveness of both me and himself. There’s only so much I can do to help him there and even then it may just not be enough.

To answer your other questions, I don’t think he should unless it helps him heal. He does not need to forgive me. I would love it if he did, but I haven’t gotten to a place where I have forgiven myself so why would I expect him to forgive me? If he ever gets to a point where he can forgive me I’d think that would be really something for him. It would mean he’s attained a certain level of peace and calm and that would be wonderful news because it would mean he’s getting healthier and more at ease and possibly happier. But in terms of should he forgive me or if I have any expectations of forgiveness, the answer is no. Not at all.

And I agree. I think you can reconcile without forgiveness.

If you've done everything right and the problems still exist then in my experience the answer is that you were not trying to solve the right problem.

Recovery is incremental, and it takes a long time. The SI rule of thumb is 2-5 years.

Many of us in R talk about being on the '5 year or longer plan'. It looks like the Wallops are 2.5 years out.

If, at 2.5 years, I judged that my W would not become a good enough partner soon enough, I would have split. But I knew when I started that R would take longer than 2.5 years. I don't see unrealistic expectations in the posts of either Mr. or Mrs. walloped.

I can’t barely stand to read this. I don’t know how your husband felt hearing these things being the man he is.

Affairs are so horrible. How do these things happen? And for what? Your AP isn’t heartbroken over you. Neither is my husband’s AP. Wallopped is heart broken. So am I. I am actually crying over the pain in this post.

You felt empathy towards the cancer kids. I feel empathy for all the betrayed spouses. And for you. You tried so hard to be a good nice woman. But came home with another man’s hickeys. It’s so sad to me. I want to say debasing.

The bell can’t be unrung. No matter how many details are shared. The result is still the same.

Edited. Sometimes I just hold my husband at night. I think while I exhale. For tonight I am going to pretend he never hurt me. I just want to sleep so deeply tonight. I love these pretend nights. I truly do.

Sometimes I will jerk out of sleep. I turn abruptly from my husband. My husband will wake up. He pulls me close to him. Grabs my hand. He won’t let me go. He knows I have to get away because the affair is choking me. But he won’t let me go.

I almost died last year. My husband needs to feel me on him at night. The thought of losing me guts him. And I am gutted so many times because he slept next to another woman. A woman who didn’t even call her children at night to say good-night. This is the woman he chose to gut me with.

The details I know about my husband’s affair hurt so much. Reading these words. It’s guttering.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 7:44 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

i don't have much to add but I am glad you are here contributing to this board.

I was heavily involved in your H's thread early on and think the world of him.

I am glad you are contrite and here. The process will still be long. Be there for him every step of the way. he never asked for this but he is a trooper and I only wish you two the best.

Mrs. W, I understand you want to carry on with the work you have taken on here of answering questions for a while longer. It is helping many people, both BSes and WSes.

I do have to admit it concerns me more than a little.

You've explained very clearly that you are mindful of the altruism trap, especially the effect of praise on you. That's good. But the altruism trap can be multifaceted. Another form it can take is "duty," and the positive internal reward from discharging "a duty." Which can slide, over time and repetition, toward martyrdom.

The awful thing about this place is there will always be a need for it. That new member ticker on the top of the screen is never going to stop growing. There will never be an end to new members with questions and old members with questions still or again.

The mods here are very wise. Long before I came they established a topic on the I Can Relate thread for WSes to answer questions of BSes.

When the time feels right, or maybe even a little sooner than that, you might consider joining the other WSes who take turns helping there.

When questions are asked of you here, it does become easy I would think to feel a duty to answer them, because they are asked of you personally. On that other thread, however, you can answer when you feel empathy, or have experience to bring to bear, but also let others add their different or complementary answers to yours. And you can take a break when you need to and let others share the work.

And it will make space on your own thread, this one or a new one, for you to ask your questions when you are ready to.

--Edited for spelling.

[This message edited by Owl6118 at 9:01 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

MRSWALLOPED,

I read every day on SI when Mr. Walloped posted from the beginning. I knew the pain he was going through having gone through multiple betrayals. I was impressed by his desire not to sweep this aside and the SI contributors that wouldn't let him. I wish I had known about SI after my wife's first betrayal. I don't think I would have had a 2nd or 3rd. I am out 5.5 years from her last confession and still ruminate about them daily and every day remains a challenge to stay happy and work on the marriage.

Thank you for posting and revealing some insights into your reasons for the affair though no reason will truly be the end answer. I can hear my wife giving some of your reasons when she explained her affairs. They were never satisfying, but each layer was closer to comprehensible. We scraped together our relationship through our acceptance of the past that we cannot change in hopes of a future that was promised when we first married. I still have moments of anxiety and panic when I see certain pre-affairs-behaviors in my wife such as when she bottles up, is critical of me, or seems unhappy.

What do you see as challenges to rebuilding your relationship with Mr. Walloped at this point? And what do you think Mr. Walloped sees as challenges?

What level of satisfaction do you have with your relationship now? And again, what do you think Mr. Walloped's level of satisfaction is?

Thank you for your attention to this thread. You are gutsy. But remember sometimes you may need to take a break from us inquiring minds to let your emotions and reasoning recover.

When Walloped posted some of your descriptions of how your A began and progressed, what surprised me most is that your AP's pursuit appeared to be pretty much the standard seduction routine and seemed like it should have been fairly obvious to you what was going on. Do you have any insight into why you didn't figure him out until after D-day?

Also, when you're out working or otherwise interacting with men now, do you find it easier to recognize when they're hitting on you? (I said "when" not "if" on the assumption that there's a sleazebag in every crowd - although that assumption may not always be correct.)

It’s probably due to my natural aversion to criticism and bristling at some of the questions. I don’t mind gettting questions. I didn’t post to just say something and not get responses. But you can kind of tell when someone is asking a question because they’re interested in your story, or are trying to apply it to their situation, or are simply curious versus those that are attacks or projections of pain disguised as questions. I understand them and I need to do a better job of not letting them affect me.

Keep in mind that SI is a messy place. It's full of raw emotions, people in a world of pain, confusion, doubt, fear and all that jazz. A lot of comments and questions will be from a place of pain, projection and anger. Don't take it personally. Remembers, it's not always about you.

I hope SI is everything you expected. Personally, SI and it's wonderful members have been way more helpful than I could have ever imagined.

I also hope you've felt welcomed here.

During your husband's initial agony, a lot of posters on here assumed your OM was a player/predator type but some saw him as someone who was really in love with you due to the way he kept contacting you even after W knew. They figured a player would have cut & run right away. But he acted like he was lovesick.

How do you know he didn't have real feelings for you? Or do you? Can't say because he lied about being married. Seems like loved people get lied to a lot.

When W called OM's wife and put you on the phone, did it ever occur to you that could have been a set up? Not that I think W would do that, but it could have been anybody on the other end of the call. It wasn't really proof that he was still married.

I always wondered if that was why you broke NC at your sister's - to verify that. If not, do you feel you got some kind of closure from that call?

This is a post for Iwantmyglasses because I can’t PM yet.

I wish I could give you a hug and wipe away all your tears and take away your pain. I’m so, so sorry.

Your post got to me so much. I’ve read it over and over again and I’m responding even though I probably shouldn’t cause I’m way too emotional to be rational or coherent. Sorry.

It killed my husband to hear the details. It tore him apart and ate at his soul. But he was obsessed about the details and he kept asking me saying he needed to know so I told him and I didn’t hold anything back because I wanted to be truthful and I wanted to help him and this is how he said he would be helped but I died every time I told him more because I knew I was killing him slowly. I cut him. Every little thing I told him was like I was stabbing him over and over again but he kept wanting to hear it. I couldn’t take it. I was losing my mind knowing I was hurting him so much by telling him details but I was too scared to not tell him. How could I not if that’s what he wanted but how could I when I saw what I was doing to him? You know, I wasn’t kidding about the hickey and my AP pinching my butt. I didn’t mean for it to come off as light hearted because it was the exact opposite. And there were many more of those kinds of things. It’s much more than sad. It’s sickening and horrific and it was debasing. Degrading. It was cheap and dirty and shameful. And I had to tell him about it over and over again because he’d ask or I remembered something and I promised I’d tell him if I did and each time I hated myself more and more. I couldn’t stomach what I did, I’d throw up, literally, and he would look like a trauma victim which he was and it was because I inflicted it on him. He was so bewildered. Confused like. I’d tell him something and he’d look at me like he didn’t know who I was. And I understood that. Because the person he thought I was would never do that to him. It was like I was a total stranger to him. And I’d still tell him. Because he wanted me to. I can’t describe the pain we were both in. I’d have to tell him these hurtful things like how another man fed me or that we had sex on a chair or that I cut his nails and every single one was as if I was literally hitting him over the head with a baseball bat and for me it was like a dagger piercing my heart because each time I told him something I knew I was killing him and I knew I lost him a bit more. I’d see the look of incredulity and I knew I destroyed him. You’re right. He is heartbroken. It’s a good way to say it. He grieves over what he lost and I grieve over what I threw away. I had something special, something wonderful, and I gave myself to another man because he made me feel good. I let him do things and I did things to him that nobody besides my husband had any business doing. And what boggles my mind is that even still my husband loves me. Sometimes he hates me too, I think, but all in all, he loves me and I don’t understand it. I don’t know why. And I die inside and hate myself knowing what I did. I tortured this special, special man who has such a capacity to love. Who is so giving and has such a generous heart. I don’t know why he hasn't left me. He certainly has every right to and no one would blame him for a second. I don’t know why. I have such a hard time seeing me as the person I was before this. I used to think I was a good person. I had major self esteem issues before but I had a family and a husband and I was a good wife and mother and now I’m the woman who, as you said, came home with another man’s hickeys. It’s horrid. I feel so dirty. So icky. One of these days I’ll start a new thread about how I look in the mirror and I can’t see me anymore. I see this woman who killed the man she loves and hurt her children. And then I realize that woman is me. What kind of mother hurts her children? What kind of monster must I be? When I was 6 months pregnant with my oldest daughter, one morning I woke up and the sheets were full of blood. Walloped was already at work and I panicked and called him in hysterics. He calmed me down and called 911 and then he had to race from Wall Street to the hospital in Long Island. I was in intensive care for a week and almost died. He told me later that on the way to the hospital he was praying to God to just let me live. Meanwhile I was praying to God to just let my baby live. I would have died happy if it meant she would survive and be born healthy. I was content knowing Walloped would be there to take care of her and I would watch over her from Heaven. And God answered both our prayers and we both survived. And how did I repay Him? By becoming the person who ruined their lives and wrecked our family and put my children in therapy. And as you said, for what? Who does that? What kind of person must I be? How selfish am I? Did I ever really love him or them? How could I if I was able to do this? You are 100% right. It is gutting. It’s debilitating. We made love tonight. It was so emotional. I cried so much and held him so tight. I don’t want to lose him. I know how much I hurt him and there’s nothing I can do to make that go away. When we make love I hope he forgets a little bit. I hope he remembers me as I was and not as I am now. I hope he remembers when he was happy and loved our life together. He’s sleeping so soundly now. So peaceful. I wish he was at peace all the time. I don’t want him to hurt anymore. I have those pretend nights too. I pretend I never did what I did. I pretend he’s still my one and only and that his touch is the only one I know. I pretend he still loves me and respects me. I pretend my children still think of me as their mother and not as the woman who betrayed their father. I’m probably going to get responses to this post about how I said “I” too many times or how I’m throwing a pity party or I’m showing myself as a victim. I don’t care. As I said I probably shouldn’t have written this and not at 3:00 in the morning, but I saw your post and started crying and I couldn’t stop. So I’m typing and crying. I can’t believe it because I’ve cried so much these past few days I’m amazed I have any tears left. I’m still crying. I’m crying for my husband. I’m crying for the pain I caused. I’m crying for you and your husband. I know it doesn’t help anybody but I can’t help it. You are in R yet you are in pain. I’m so sorry. Your husband is in pain too. Both of you are in pain that he caused by what he did with that woman and I wish I had a way to ease your pain. I’m sorry that I don’t. But if it helps just a little bit, please know that there is a stranger out there who is thinking of you and is wishing you peace and serenity and happiness and love.

Thank you for sharing this.

There is more to say. Lots of appointments today.

I wanted to jot this down.

I don’t know what your religious affiliation is. I have learned this. The absolute best way to tear apart the world is to tear apart families. I truly believe the Devil uses adultery to achieve this goal. There is a stain through generations because of it.

My friend who cheated. She told me and our other friends how the evil was pulling her. I didn’t fully understand it until I heard a VAR of my husband talking to his AP. His tone of voice. No matter what an ass my husband had been over the years. I never heard that tone. It had an almost evilness to it. I cannot explain it on paper. I heard it. I know what I heard.

You and your husband had an evening together to be man and wife and the devil/evil was there. I am not advocating religion. I just firmly believe Christ makes all things new.

What you did was so wrong. You know this.

I don’t fault the use of I. Sometimes there isn’t a better way to explain it.

You have spent your life living through your family just as I have. Sometimes that I is so intertwined with family because it’s every bit of who you and who I am.

Mrs. W,

Thanks for the follow up.

He’s a man of integrity...And because of that he’s very conflicted. Integrity to him means doing what’s right no matter what and not because people will applaud him for it, but because it’s the right thing to do (yes, I need to learn from him). So what’s the “right” thing now?

Exactly, and you give some very good examples as well. One thought you may have not considered from his perspective is what example does this set for your boys when they find out. You both will need to think very carefully on how to approach that one. He may be concerned that his staying will teach your boys that they should accept that their spouses may cheat on them. Alternately, it could teach them to work through problems with people who have wronged them. Maybe it teaches one of them one thing and the other the opposite thing (I know how differently my own kids react to the same event). Had he left you, the pros and cons lesson-wise would have changed, but the ability of your kids to individually learn from it would have remained the same. That’s the hell of an A, it doesn’t give anyone any really good choices. Some are just less bad than others. I say this not to upset you, but to hopefully give you some additional insight into how W might be feeling.

He’s not the type to put his own happiness first. He’s the self-sacrificing type.

Exactly. Which raises the elephant in the room. I want to put this as gently as possible, if he decides he must leave I doubt it would have anything to do with his happiness. It would be more likely his own survival and the ability to live with himself.

He also connects Acceptance with Condoning and Forgiving.

This is a tough one, because in some ways they can be, but they don’t necessarily have to be. I learned this when a sibling of mine went through a life threatening illness created by extremely poor choices. At first I couldn’t accept what they did, because it was reckless and stupid, but with time I’ve accepted what happened, but I certainly don’t condone it (their problems brought about by their choices arent my problems) and I can’t forgive what their choices have done to my parents. This is easier for me though because I can keep my sibling at arms length, W doesn’t really have that option with you. So, I feel like any guidance I give in that regard would be insufficient. I’m sorry I can’t be of more help.

Hey MrsWalloped, thanks so much for all of this. Count me as one guy who really relied on your husband's story and posts to help me get through my process (which is of course still ongoing in many ways). Also count me as a person who believes in the duality of human nature, and the varied and complex ways that a person can do "bad" things and still be "good." I can tell that you are a good person.

Like so many of us here, there are huge similarities between Walloped's story and mine. I see a lot of myself in him, and witnessing his process has become, for me, like witnessing what my life would be if my WW would have been like you. She wasn't and isn't. Her lies never stopped and her affair never stopped. I'm divorced now and it's a whole new process, one that neither of you have experience with.

But I think there is value to me in seeing what life *could* be like. Because I fought hard, too, and would have swallowed so much to keep my marriage intact. I would have done it -- much like Walloped, I think -- because of all the "right" things I was supposed to do as a father, man, human, whatever. I'm driven by the same value system(s) that you describe in earlier posts, I think. Often at my own expense, probably.

Anyway, without really getting into it, it's helpful for me to be able to bear some witness to your husband's (and now your) process.

Not sure why I'm writing you other than to say that what I really, really care about most of all is healing and positive outcomes for betrayed spouses. Not about preserving marriages, not about punishment for WS, not about anything else, really. And what I think so many of us are marveling at here, as difficult as it is at times to witness, is how *you* -- MrsWalloped -- are working very hard to be exactly what you need to be to help Walloped heal and have a positive outcome in his life. Not to save your marriage, not to save yourself, but to help this man. No WS has done it better here that I can see.

We can't predict the future and no one can say for sure what will happen with you or your husband. I'm glad that you seem to see that it's not really about that, it's not about your marriage, and for this one massive thing, it's also not about your own important issues and pain. It's about him. That is good human karma stuff.

And yeah, thanks for all the honesty. It matters. :)

[This message edited by Okokok at 10:09 AM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

Hello Mrs. Walloped. No questions from me. Just some encouragement hopefully. Several months ago Walloped posted something that made me happy for both of you. It also made me hopeful for my own M and jealous of Walloped at the same time.

My W also has a lot of FOO issues. In fact, your mom and hers might have taken notes from each other.

I would love to ask a question. This is one that's hard for me to figure out, and might be pretty difficult for you to answer, so please just skip it if you prefer.

As a wayward, is there ever a difference between remorse/regret for your actions, and just simply covering your own ass?

I see story after story here (one particularly painful one is a guide or moderator here) where through the affair they are full on committed to being with their AP. They talk about it, they make plans together, they dream of it. Then, once discovery happens, and things don't go as planned with the AP, suddenly their BS is the most amazing thing ever. I see all the time, they are all I ever wanted, I love them and no one else, we're meant to be together.

I try to help, especially here in the W forum, where I feel like the perspective of a BS who isn't raw from recent trauma might help. I try to be direct and compassionate (sometimes I fail). But it's the one thing that I just can't seem to understand. To me, you have an affair because that's the best way to maximize your life enjoyment. You lie, because that's the best way to maximize your life enjoyment. You say all the right words, because that's the way to maximize your life enjoyment.

So in your case, you claim that Walloped is the best ever. He's kind, compassionate, supportive. He's been there for you, he has provided for you. So why in the world would you ever challenge that? Why would you ever take the chance to destabilize the life of your children? Why would you choose to damage the man that's raising your children?

Selfishness doesn't apply here, you aren't taking the last brownie. I don't believe anyone when they say that they didn't think that the affair would hurt their BS that much. The lies, and the excuses for lying, are all just a tactic to mitigate damage to themselves.

Most of what I see now in this forum, I just assume is from people who have gone to 50 websites looking for a way to save their asses. They are well versed in exactly the right things to say about their affair. I take full responsibility, not my BSs fault, I made a terrible mistake...

How is anything that you've said any different? Why do we put more weight into the words of someone trying desperately to save their quality of life over words that they used with their AP?

[This message edited by xhz700 at 11:13 AM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

The following bit illustrates the sort of thing I'm really wondering about:

He wasn’t in the middle of a divorce. He was married, but separated and he and his wife were going to marriage counseling together to work on their marriage. Why was I angry? I thought he loved me. I thought I was special. And I found out in a very emotional and shocking way (from his wife on the phone when my husband called her) that he was married, had lied to me, was working on his marriage, had multiple affairs, that I was just another slut to him, and that I ruined my life for him. I was angry at him and felt sorry for myself and scared of my husband.

This is precisely what I don't get, even though it happens over and over again. The guy is the sort of person who will conduct an extended affair with a married woman. One who, just by virtue of having an affair, is continually lying to her husband. And yet, when it turns out that the AP is a cheater and a liar, the reaction is always the same - how could he do this to me? I trusted him? I feel so betrayed. Extremely well described here - and I can't begin to imagine the pain it causes to recount these horrible moments - but by no means unique to Mrs. W. This reaction happens over and over again. I just don't get it.

This reaction happens over and over again. I just don't get it.

You and I are in the same boat, Foley05. I think it's something that just can't be explained.

I think most of us think other people are good people, that they're not out for anything or have evil intentions. most of us probably view ourselves like this. So, when a AP turns on the charm we think there is no harm. Because people are good at heart.

the fact that some people have an agenda does not compute to most people. i really have to think hard about it. entering into any relationship - friendship, romantic, etc - your first thought is never, what do they want from me. at least, it's not in my head.

So when you say how could the WW not know, well, there is your answer.

and I might add I'm not a man and never see someone and think, hey, possible sexual conquest. that has never ever entered my head. apparently this happens though, as you guys are explaining. for most women, it does not.

[This message edited by sewardak at 12:51 PM, February 14th (Wednesday)]

You've answered so many questions it has been painful to relive those memories and feelings again here. So I will not ask many questions. I just want to encourage you to continue to do the work you are doing. Continue to strive to be the wife you want to be for W and for yourself. I want to encourage you to continue to strive to heal from this. You have learned from it but you both need to heal. It took me a long time to heal from my wife's affair. It took her just as long to heal as well. Yet in April it will be 12 years since D-day. I will pray for you. If I have questions later, I will ask. But be encouraged. Just wanted to say that.