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My god, they should study him for Narc research. His manipulation is so out there I'd laugh if it weren't real and traumatizing to you.

So happy to hear you have a go bag, a lawyer and a plan.

Go you!

Hah, the coach thing I can relate to. My BH would talk down to me, ordering me around like people at work,

Total bullshit! What a shit excuse for being shitty.

Good coaches yell encouragement when they're spurring their players on to greater efforts.

My beliefs exactly. Would I want my daughter coached any other way?

He's a narc.

Okay so I didn't really know what you were getting at before, but yet another piece of the puzzle slowly came together for me after reading yours and nomudnolotus's replies, and with talking with my IC. He is a covert narcissist, like you say your dad is. I had never heard of that, I thought there was basically one kind, the grandiose narc, which is more like my dad. I am educating myself on this now. What on earth...I feel even more betrayed, and yet a lot of pity for him. He wasn't born like this.

It's like the limbo bar in reverse. It's never enough mad .

So take your "unsatisfactory" self out the door. You'll never satisfy him, and that is a GOOD THING.

Sadly, he'll never know that to be satisfied in others, you need to first be satisfied in yourself.

Sadly, you are completely right! He's wanted me to "change" since we got together. The words "change" and "nothing" are now triggering words for me. Like seriously he says I need to change, and I "do nothing" (meaning I do nothing for his self esteem since the affair)...almost daily.

He sees your body as HIS.

He sees you as a piece of property.

Not as a woman. Not as his wife. Hell,not even as a human being.

You are an object. A possession.

Fuck ALL of that.

Your ass is YOUR ass.

He has treated you as though you belong to him,therefore he can use you as you see fit.

That little conversation tells you all you need to know. He hasn't changed at all. He isn't even working on changing. Because..

He said inside he feels like screaming. I asked him if he wanted to unleash on me right now, and he said yes, but he knows I need him to be calm.

Inside he is still the same abuser. He's wearing a mask for outward appearances. He's simply playing another game with you.

ALL OF THIS. Exactly.

New problem. I'm not on birth control and we don't use condoms and he keeps wondering why I don't want to have sex. I absolutely do not want to get pregnant right now. But he does/has been wanting to for awhile. Ridiculous. I don't know if I can keep this up. We will just fight every day because he feels unwanted and undesirable because I kept choosing other guys over him, and now I don't want him. Someone PM me any ideas. Thank you

Another thing. After I just posted that last post, I remembered a dream I had last night. The dream was simple. It was just that I was missing (I think 3) diamonds from my mother/mommy ring with my daughter's birthstones that my husband gave to me. I hardly ever remember my dreams. I'm not superstitious or kooky but I do believe in God so I got curious, and I looked it up. This is what I found literally right away:

Dream about Diamond Missing From Ring is sometimes insights from your subconscious mind. You may be experiencing an upheaval in your life. There is something in your life that you need to let go no matter how hard it may be. The dream suggests your outlook and how things are going in your life. Some situation or relationship is emotionally draining you.

Just found that very interesting lol!

[This message edited by soapt at 1:06 AM, Saturday, March 19th]

Hi soapt,

I get into dream analysis too- not that they predict the future or anything kooky like that, but they help you understand what's going on in your life emotionally. When my dad was dying, I had repeated dreams of tornados blowing down my house around me. Doesn't take much metaphorical genius to understand that one.

So yeah, the fact that it was a ring your husband gave you is pretty telling.

Have you read/listened to a lot of Dr. Ramani lately? She does a lot of good talks on covert narcs.

Oh my gosh the tornadoes make sense. Pretty cool when you subconscious does that, even if it's about something sad.

I haven't seen any videos from her yet but I've been watching Dr. Les Carter and other videos. I'm finding most of the typical narc behavior to be true in my case but not all of it. For example, the main one that doesn't line up is my husband actually values many of my opinions, such as in business decisions/ideas, how the house should look (I decorate and he likes it), or even what to name our kid (the name was my idea and he agreed). True full blown narcs do not typically do that, from my understanding. I'm still finding a lot to be true though, so I'm still learning.

I have decided to keep being sexual with him, while using spermicide or just not having intercourse. It's been annoying and tricky and triggering, but it is keeping him happy. I figure I have to be manipulative now. And he is having happy days lately. He's doing house projects, genuinely complimenting me, cooking for me, wanting to go shopping with me, basically love bombing me. I do not want to do this forever, but my moving out will come soon enough. Last night he was complaining again about not being able to believe me when I compliment him or his "area", because he knows what I said and did to "those other guys" and that's all proof of what I actually think of him. So to me, that means that everything he has said and done to me is proof of what he thinks of me. I didn't say that out loud, but I heard it loud and clear.

So. I am still so hung up on the finances. Big time. I feel I have to be seriously manipulative right now, to keep him motivated to work at the business that is 100% in my name... Like, he even said to me yesterday that it's to my benefit that I manipulate him, because I will make more money! By manipulate, he means to just be overly sexual and kind to him. If I do that, he melts and just wants to do things for me. He just said it in plain conversation. So I feel sort of like...I gotta fake it 'til I make it. Because if I turn his life upside down by leaving, I fear he will simply not be motivated to work, lead his workers, fix our financial mess (my mess) or make money at all. He could literally leave the business, walk away with no debt and just get a job somewhere. He really can, because on paper, he is a simple employee. And I would be stuck with loads of debt that would not all be erased via bankruptcy due to state taxes. And right now, he is gearing up to take over my biggest responsibilities; sales and money management, so I can be a housewife. He wants to relieve my load, after all these years. I honestly don't even know what to do with that. I guess I'm just not too familiar with the cycle. It's never been this love-bomby before, this is huge stuff. Oof

For example, the main one that doesn't line up is my husband actually values many of my opinions, such as in business decisions/ideas,

For this at least, the $$ making, you don't have to analyze too far to see the narc. He trusts your judgement in business because it's brought him the comfort of his lifestyle. Of course it's in his best interests to keep that going.

Your business situation is confusing to me. I'm an engineer, not an accountant/business type, so that's not hard to do (confuse me). Let me see if I am hearing you right:
-You own the business
*Does this mean your name only is on: loans, leases, equipment purchases, bank accounts, etc?
*How did this come to be in your name only?
*Did you start this business as your idea or was it his idea that he made you do the background work for?
*What was his credit like when you started the business? Was yours better and so you were the one to take the loan out?
-You have debt that would not be erased because of state taxes if you claimed bankruptcy?
*Have you talked to a tax lawyer? Or a business lawyer? PM me if you need recommendations, I have a few friends I can ask.
-Your husband is only an employee and not a co-owner on this company
*If you are his employer and you own the company, why not hire another person capable of doing his job before you leave him?
*If you do this, you can have his start date coincide w/in a week of your separation and FIRING of your husband.
*If your husband is your employee, you can fire him. Married or not. ESPECIALLY if you live in an "at will" state
*Do you have a formal contract written up with your husband? Like, you will work x hours or do such and such duties for the set fee of $X/hr? Any way you could finagle that one?

And right now, he is gearing up to take over my biggest responsibilities; sales and money management, so I can be a housewife

Ok. I am going to salt this with how triggered I am about men promising to take care of women when they're their housewife. I did that and my BH mismanaged money and justified extravagant things for himself (in the middle of tax auction and foreclosure notices) because I was such a bitch when I was going through my post-partum. I really was a bitch. Hormones aren't my friend...

ANYWAY!

With your husband's history of control and domination, this "intent" seems dubious at best. I would not let him take it over unless he agrees to sign the debt of the business over to you. If he wants the responsibilities so you can stay home, great, but he has to take it as a package deal.

Otherwise, he could decide that when you leave him, he's not going to work for the business. Then you will be stuck with the debt, bad credit and NO INCOME. And right back where you are now- scared, dependent, cut off and completely at his mercy.

So sweet. The narc wants wifey to stay home and be further dependent upon him .

Again, he wants the privilege of being the "big man" around the house, he has to take on the big responsibilities too. That way, when you leave him, you can wash your hands of all this and be the one who is the

simple employee

and HE can be the one stuck with the debt.

Your business situation is confusing to me. I'm an engineer, not an accountant/business type, so that's not hard to do (confuse me). Let me see if I am hearing you right:
-You own the business Correct
*Does this mean your name only is on: loans, leases, equipment purchases, bank accounts, etc? Mostly yes, all our accounts are in my name. My husband has just one loan in his name that is for the business. I have no loans but I have several outstanding debts as I've mentioned.
*How did this come to be in your name only? Because of his previous divorce. The ex had nothing to do with his business whatsoever during their marriage. It was totally his, 100%. When they split, he was only required to pay a small amount of child support each month. Back then, his business was not very profitable so he didn't want to pay her additional child support in case the business grew (which it has). So that's why he sold the business to me, before we got married, to avoid us having to pay more in child support. Additionally, we signed a prenuptial agreement to create another layer of financial protection from her (she is quite litigious and jealous).
*Did you start this business as your idea or was it his idea that he made you do the background work for? It was all his business. He started out having me run the office (customer service, scheduling, payroll, taxes, invoicing, etc.) while he managed sales, employees, ordering, project management & physical labor. Our roles have changed a bit over time, but I still run the office. I took over sales and money management, and he still manages employees and projects but on a larger scale. Like much larger. And he does most of the decision making and I'm okay with that, I hate making decisions.
*What was his credit like when you started the business? Was yours better and so you were the one to take the loan out? I was young so my credit wasn't great, and he was going through bankruptcy due to the divorce so his credit was not great either.
-You have debt that would not be erased because of state taxes if you claimed bankruptcy? Yes, sales tax does not go away because it is collected. I could erase other debts with bankruptcy, but unfortunately the sales tax debt is substantial.
*Have you talked to a tax lawyer? Or a business lawyer? PM me if you need recommendations, I have a few friends I can ask. We haven't yet. We have a business lawyer but we have been through the bankruptcy process from my husband's divorce about a decade ago and his sales tax didn't go away.
-Your husband is only an employee and not a co-owner on this company
*If you are his employer and you own the company, why not hire another person capable of doing his job before you leave him?
*If you do this, you can have his start date coincide w/in a week of your separation and FIRING of your husband.
*If your husband is your employee, you can fire him. Married or not. ESPECIALLY if you live in an "at will" state
In theory, yes, but reality...no. We have a skilled labor company and a retail store. My husband's rapport with our employees is seriously outstanding and his knowledge/experience is second to none (for his age too). He has just been lazy with his gifts/talent because of all the personal shit we've been dealing with. The stuff he does, it would take someone years to learn, like it has for him. Also, I am not the one here with the business mind, my husband is. I'm not saying I'm incompetent, but in this case, I can't do it without him. And I definitely can't hire his replacement right in front of his eyes. Like, just because the business is in my name doesn't mean I make all the executive decisions.
*Do you have a formal contract written up with your husband? Like, you will work x hours or do such and such duties for the set fee of $X/hr? Any way you could finagle that one? Nope, no contract. We don't do that with any of our employees actually.

Ok. I am going to salt this with how triggered I am about men promising to take care of women when they're their housewife. I did that and my BH mismanaged money and justified extravagant things for himself (in the middle of tax auction and foreclosure notices) because I was such a bitch when I was going through my post-partum. I really was a bitch. Hormones aren't my friend...

LOL about the hormones, sorry to hear! Yikes, sounds like horrible financial mismanagement. I will salt that, because I've always wanted to be a housewife, and he's wanted that for me too but we have both not really made great efforts toward that goal. Now he finally wants to help. To me, it's just kind of like...well, he can read me like a book and I know he has been feeling me pulling away these past few months and this feels like his greatest effort ever to make me "happy." Which then, feels like...um thanks. I feel so special.

So sweet. The narc wants wifey to stay home and be further dependent upon him

That could be what's going on because he can sense I am pulling away. Not sure though because he knows how much trouble "I'm" in. He knows very well what's going on here in the business.

My IC says to trust God and to stop trying to control the outcome. I know that I am for sure trying to control the outcome but I feel it's in my best interest to...

Sighhhhhh so much crap to consider lol!

Thanks for answering my questions! It really does sound like you would have a tough time making the business successful independent of your husband. I'm glad that the whole thing didn't start off as a manipulation on his part. I've seen it before where a woman is told to do something by her husband financially as it is "the best move financially" only to have taken on the risk for little personal reward.

Yeah, our finances sucked. BH is moving heaven and earth to right it and we're much better at working together now. Not perfect, but, wow what an improvement. He's really done amazing things to make our marriage work. I'm really proud of him (when I'm not shame spiraling or having a PTSD moment from all the shit we have been through).

I have trouble letting go and letting God too. So much was out of my control in my childhood and early adulthood. I asked repeatedly where God was during those times. To me, for a very long time, God had dropped the ball. I really came into the church as an act of surrender. I couldn't take it anymore after my dad died. Can't beat Him, join Him. That and BH's family was going through the death of his grandma from cancer as we were going through my dad's death with cancer. His family was able to come together and love on each other. Mine really just imploded. So... they're faithful, they're handling it better, we're agnostic and losing our shit... which is the way I want to live? That's where I was when I converted, but it's done many good things for me and also been extremely challenging in its own way.

It's hard to trust anything when you're raised in a "justify your existence" home. Not sure if that's what you went through, but that's what happened to me.

Keep hanging in there. If it would make you feel easier "letting go and letting God," maybe try listing the skills and competencies you have (inside the home and outside it) and see what He's given you and what you've done to steward it. I'd bet you'd be surprised at how long that list really is.

When they split, he was only required to pay a small amount of child support each month. Back then, his business was not very profitable so he didn't want to pay her additional child support in case the business grew (which it has). So that's why he sold the business to me, before we got married, to avoid us having to pay more in child support.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but here was your first red flag that your husband is not a good guy. Good guys don't rip their kids off. Child support is NOT for the ex. It's for making sure that the children have a decent lifestyle.

As far as your business goes.. let it go. Get a good lawyer, get a good job, and get out. Sounds simpler than it is, but you have to figure that you're never going to get another minute of your life back. I think you have to ask yourself if this lifestyle is working for you or not.

she is quite litigious and jealous)

I don't know..maybe she's litigious because he screwed her child out of the proper amount if child support.

And he may have spun it as her being jealous. Being a narcissist, I'm sure he has. But,sweetheart, your husband is no prize. If anything,she's glad he's no longer her problem.

Thank you for backing me up and encouraging me! Even though it's nice to hear, I do feel I haven't really done this lady (husband's ex) justice for how I feel about her...

Child support is NOT for the ex. It's for making sure that the children have a decent lifestyle.

maybe she's litigious because he screwed her child out of the proper amount if child support.

Yes, it sounds bad. The thing is, they were awarded 50/50 joint custody and her father was wealthy and gave her a whole house to live in. She never got a job even though she had a whole week at a time to herself. As the kids got older, she did ask us for money, so my husband offered to take over the kids' cell phone payments for her if we put them on our business phone plan, to save everyone money and she declined (most likely because that would mean she'd give up control). She never asked for more money after that lol. BUT to your point...I think what you are all trying to say is that my husband is a master manipulator. And I agree, he surely is.

So, more stuff. She has always been horrible to me and my husband and the kids. And was she jealous? Yes. My husband kicked her ass out of the house for being an abusive, entitled POS (there's proof of this, it's not he-said-she-said). One day, while I was engaged to my husband, at my step-son's baseball game, she was laughing about her friend threatening to beat me up in a parking lot right IN FRONT of my step-son. I've witnessed many scenes involving her using my step-kids against their dad. One tiny example is: one day she got them chanting that we (me and my husband) are "on Satan's team" and high-fiving them for going along with her about it. That isn't even a joke. She is fucking cuckoo. So even though my husband is sounding nuts right now, and he is, I feel a particular hatred for this woman for what she has put her kids, myself and even my husband through. Brainwashing, manipulating, yelling at, questioning and guilting those poor children... Yeah. She's crazy. Anyway, she really is a sick person, which quite possibly had a lot to do with why I trusted my husband in the first place. I thought, how could he become abusive when he was in such a horrible marriage with that sad excuse for a human? I'm still perplexed by this TBH. Sorry if I'm a bit touchy with this topic, but she truly is wicked.

A bit off track, so...

As far as your business goes.. let it go. Get a good lawyer, get a good job, and get out. Sounds simpler than it is, but you have to figure that you're never going to get another minute of your life back. I think you have to ask yourself if this lifestyle is working for you or not.

I'll have a chat with my IC about this tomorrow, and I meet my lawyer tomorrow as well. My first lawyer meeting got cancelled so fingers crossed it goes well!

Thanks for listening to my rants lol

What's his relationship like with his other kids?

And right now, he is gearing up to take over my biggest responsibilities; sales and money management, so I can be a housewife.

He wants this so he can control you further. He can see that he is losing control. Please do not let this happen.

What's his relationship like with his other kids?

Pretty sad. They live with us half of the time. They are teenagers now so there's that teenager alien situation, but what's sad is that I feel like my husband gave up on them. Back in the early days, he was an awesome daddy. He played with them in the ways they liked to be played with, he fought hard to be home as much as the business would allow, he was consistent in discipline and routines, he never talked bad about their mom to them even though she was clearly doing that, he brought them to church, taught them lessons by explaining things rather than spankings or punishment, and a whole bunch of other good father things. Their mom has always been pushy, nosy, entitled, demanding, so over their childhood, she would constantly be on my husband's ass about whatever she was mad about that week. She would complain about my mom babysitting her kids instead of herself, whine about us washing the girls' security blankets, complaining about how I do their hair, just all the pointless crap you could think of. So around the time of my "affair", my husband kind of started giving his ex more control. He let her pick up the kids from school or practice during our week, plan things on our week, he just basically stopped bucking her every wish like he always has. And I feel he became uninvolved, uninterested, rejected, and distant. He stopped going to their games and concerts and he really just acts like they chose their mom over him and like...he just doesn't want to fight it anymore.

That's why I feel like he "gave up." He feels abandoned by everyone, including his kids. He has a victim mindset. He always has, I just didn't see it.

To me, I think that it has always been easier for them to disappoint and reject their dad rather than their mom, because they get consequences for hurting her feelings but not his. If they hurt their dad's feelings, nothing really happens, no emotions to carry, no explaining themselves to him. So that's how they coped. But what's wrong about this whole thing is my husband didn't have to just stop caring! He is their father for Christ's sake! He should be the grown-up, and do what's hard even though you get nothing back.

Anyway, it's very sad to me. And he won't listen to me about it either. He just gets insulted if I (very nicely) tell him what I think he could do differently. He usually says "what's the point? Why waste my energy when nothing will change?"

His whole victimhood mentality is what's got him into this hole. It's just all sad.

Gotta go for now!

How long had he and his ex been divorced, before he met you?

How long had he and his ex been divorced, before he met you?

We already knew each other. We went to the same church and his sisters were my best friends. My father (my husband's pastor) helped him through the DHS process and with filing a no-contact order against the ex-wife. I have known my step-kids since birth (or known of them I guess). It's always been kind of a weird dynamic because the oldest is only 12 years younger than me.

I had not considered him to be an option for me. Like it never crossed my mind, until he showed interest. We became an item really soon after she was removed from the home. Really soon. Like weeks.

[This message edited by soapt at 9:23 PM, Wednesday, March 23rd]

So she believes he had an affair with you.

I believe what you say. But,it looks like he was having an affair with you.

Which is what I thought,when you mentioned the way she treated you.

And she also knows the 2 of you schemed to screw her children out of the correct amount of child support.

None of this matters, since you are leaving him. But I do think maybe you need to look at your husband's entire history, with different eyes. He has never been a good man.

He was the same man with her,that he is with you.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:26 PM, Wednesday, March 23rd]

So she believes he had an affair with you.

I believe what you say. But,it looks like he was having an affair with you.

Yes it was a literal affair. He claimed he would not go back to her ever, and the marriage was over long before they physically separated. But yeah that was an affair. We kept our relationship hidden for a long time and she never officially knew we were together. But she knew. She actually blames their whole separation on me and my dad, like it was a scheme to get rid of her (because in her mind, she did nothing wrong). Ha, it could never be because she was physically violent or a raging lunatic.

But I do think maybe you need to look at your husband's entire history, with different eyes. He has never been a good man.

I have actually been trying to do that these past few weeks (hence my reading old letters and conversations). I'll come to terms with that soon I think.
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The lawyer I met today says that before I do anything, I need to speak with a financial professional. She will send me some names to try.

So, he gave you the old cheater's soft-shoe about how his marriage was over and you two had an affair on his first wife, is that accurate? Because if that's the case, how in the hell does he justify sending you out to fuck other guys in order to appease his fetish as a response to your cheating? He's as much a cheater as you are at that point.

It also explains why she didn't want you to do her daughter's hair or want your mom to watch the kids,etc.

She may also have been angry and responding to her husband having an affair with a teenager. Not that physical violence is ok. It does explain her hatred for you. It was justified.

Read in JFO. You will see how devastating being betrayed is.

I'm pointing all of this out because it's clear you've been somewhat brainwashed. And your perspective is off,when it comes to your husband.

And it started when you had an affair with a married man then the two of you conspired to cheat her and her kids,out of legal child support.

Your entire life with him has been one big cycle of abuse.