SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Lost, now is a delicate time for reconciliation, if that is even still on the table. Listen to BeyondRage and read his saga (and it's a saga and a half). You are dealing with anger issues now. Believe me when I say this, this is where I was. You are emerging from the shock and awe of the betrayal and now just want to rage to the heavens. The trick is to use anger for focus and clarity, to keep you out of shock. It will keep you grounded in what HAS to be done. It will remind you that you are NOT the one who wronged your marriage, you are the victim of betrayal. Anger will focus you on your own list of non negotiable items to move forward with, if she is truly capable of reconciliation.

I'm trying to contain it. Mornings are so rough for me. I'm feeling a lot better now. I want to send a revision of Steven's letter, but after this morning I think I'll wait for a bit.

Ultimately, you can't control her, you only control YOU. If she isn't interested in putting in the work, you stay in practical mode. Stay calm even when angry, and stop rage-texting. That only gives her the idea that she has some influence over what you will do. She doesn't. Only you can decide your actions going forward. She checked out of that role when she decided to sleep with the AP she can't seem to quit.

Nope, she isn't.

Best of luck going forward and continue to check in here. I really empathize with what you are going through.

Thanks man.

I'm actually thinking she's not so much a 'lie to my face' (or text) person as a 'lie by omission'. I have to ask direct questions to get anything out of her. Never volunteers it, but doesn't deny it. It's dishonesty either way, not sure if it means anything.

To be honest I have been entertaining serious notions of calling him up and telling him to convince my wife to move in with him. Probably a pointless phone call, but whatever.

Forget the above, it’s counter-productive and self-destructive in that you’re giving him power over you unnecessarily.

Until you take some form of decisive action you will likely be in this current state with her waffling for some time. It gets old quickly and it’s a very detrimental environment for your kids, especially if arguments ensue and escalate.

The swiftest, most decisive action you can take is in my first response to you. There’s a high possibility he won’t want her (other than for sex), and there’s a high possibility she will more quickly see the loser that he is. It’s obviously your call, but being on the other side of this thing myself, having read countless stories on here of how these situations often play out, when you have a spouse thinking like yours the best form of action is to make the decision for them and get yourself out of infidelity pronto.

It’s like treating an infection, you can let it fester and continue on in pain, or you can treat it effectively to allow the healing process to begin.

LostOne, check your PMs every so often.

And it’s good to see you are deciding not to try and “nice” her back into the relationship any more. I just think you need to Focus the messaging and then detach strongly until you actually see her doing the work over a sustained period of time.

You have a long road ahead of you one way or another.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:26 PM, January 6th (Monday)]

Forget the above, it’s counter-productive and self-destructive in that you’re giving him power over you unnecessarily.

It'd just be easier if she was already gone.

Until you take some form of decisive action you will likely be in this current state with her waffling for some time. It gets old quickly and it’s a very detrimental environment for your kids, especially if arguments ensue and escalate.

Yes, true.

The swiftest, most decisive action you can take is in my first response to you. There’s a high possibility he won’t want her (other than for sex), and there’s a high possibility she will more quickly see the loser that he is. It’s obviously your call, but being on the other side of this thing myself, having read countless stories on here of how these situations often play out, when you have a spouse thinking like yours the best form of action is to make the decision for them and get yourself out of infidelity pronto.

It’s like treating an infection, you can let it fester and continue on in pain, or you can treat it effectively to allow the healing process to begin.

Your first response was to pack her bags. She is adamant that she's not going. She's cosigner on the loan, I can't make her go.

The over-riding message to deliver is very simple and direct:

I am in no way interested in being in a relationship where I am not my partners one and only love. Until you can take the steps to make me feel I am that person for you, we have nothing else to discuss. I wish you well in finding what you are looking for.

I think you are doing well. As well as I did. I just wish you didn't have to stay in that house. You should do everything you can to make her affair as inconvenient as possible.

No more babysitting the kids while she goes out with her OM. If she goes out, you go out, and you get the kids a sitter...every single time. Don't let her openly cuckold you without a fight.

And you should expose her affair to the rest of the family. It can be empowering, and it takes the wind out of her sails. You owe her no loyalty or fealty now, so just bite the bullet and do it. All you need to tell are her parents and yours. They can trickle the news down if they want to. And expect her parents to take her side because they will. They love her more than you and blood is thicker than water.

TLO2020,

What is your WW doing to help you? Rhetorical question.

A basic mindset you should have right now, is that you are the one that has to be chased/won. You are the one that did not step out of the M, did not break any M vows. You are the Prize.

Your WW says she is 'weak', but is string enough to have the energy to go see her boyfriend often. This is justification on her part not to work on the M anymore.

If she were truly remorseful and truly wants to stay with you, she would be moving Heaven & Earth to stay in the M.

At this point in time, it is useless to think about R, as it is only you that wants to R. For a successful R, both parties need to want it. If one party is halfhearted about it, then it is doomed to fail.

I am in no way interested in being in a relationship where I am not my partners one and only love. Until you can take the steps to make me feel I am that person for you, we have nothing else to discuss. I wish you well in finding what you are looking for.

...then you walk away and go for ice cream with your two kids

What is your WW doing to help you? Rhetorical question.

Absolutely nothing. She's all about herself. She is 'torn apart' that she's hurt me so badly and wants desperately to stop my pain.

But will do absolutely nothing. This is all I've thought about the last day and a half. I had a yelling match with her last night. I was harsh - but accurate. I said that I couldn't trust anything she said. I said she was a liar. I said that she didn't give a shit. I also said that the 'appointment' today is useless. She will come back from it - if it happens at all - and say one of two things:

Either:

1. I need a new therapist - this one didn't click.

2. I like this therapist and I feel that i made some progress, but I'm not ready to stop the affair.

Something like that - I'm not a prophet.

I said to her that under no circumstances will she come back from therapy and realize that she should be doing stuff to help me.

Because she won't.

Your WW says she is 'weak', but is string enough to have the energy to go see her boyfriend often. This is justification on her part not to work on the M anymore.

I mean, facetime everyday or whatever, maybe see him once a week to fuck. That's quibbling on 'often' though so who cares.

If she were truly remorseful and truly wants to stay with you, she would be moving Heaven & Earth to stay in the M.

I know this. I sit here and the logical side of my brain absolutely knows this. I have told her this and it's like pissing in the ocean. It's the other bastard in my brain that wrestles for control that is being a bitch in this whole thing.

Anyway. As I said we had an argument last night. At the worst I told her to get out of the room I was in. She went downstairs and said 'hope you like jerking off'.

She later apologized, but that was so completely fucked up considering what's going on right now.

I was later thinking about the whole thing - I need to get a fucking grip. I kind of detached while thinking about it - it feels like I'm more arguing with myself when I talk to her. As though I'm trying to dig up the definitive statement that will get me clarity. But it's a waste of time and energy. It seriously is.

So later she was upstairs (as was I), with the kids. She came in briefly to talk to me. I had no energy. She said that this was hard for her and if only she could predict the future (something like that, not that thing) and know that we'd be okay it would be easier for her.

I said that she's focusing on the wrong thing - she should focus on the present. She asked what she could do. I said, have you called him? No. I said, well then give me your phone so you don't. 'Well, I mean, I could just contact him through other electronics'. So give me those. Silence, then 'I'm trying...I have to make some calls I'll think about it'. I knew it was useless and didn't have the energy. I felt stupid for even talking to her. Why am I wasting this energy.

I sent her a text saying something like 'I'm just confirming that you aren't going to give me your electronics'. She said she still had people to call. I didn't respond. Later (11ish) she said that she would put her phone outside her door, because she needed the alarm to wake up (we are in different rooms, FYI).

I didn't respond.

This morning I went to the gym. I had absolutely no energy. I was about to give up and I decided to just try to get angry. Well, I did and had a good workout. That was pretty good.

I get home and schools are closed. Okay. She sends me a text about it. I say I know, thank you.

Later in the morning she comes up - she says she expects to hear from the therapist today. I say okay. She says a few other things, I give 'okays' or whatever. No substantial talk.

I know where we are at and where we are headed. I have to focus on just shutting the fuck up in front of her because it's just draining me.

So that's what I will do. That's all I can seem to do at this point. I will focus on:

1. Figuring out the house situation. I'm going to contact my bank and figure out what refinancing for one person actually entails.

2. I will look into apartments near our children's schools. I've already seen some, but I need to figure out whether I need three rooms, what kind of security deposit I need, that sort of stuff.

3. I need to look more into 'separate but under one roof'. I have some documents, but I need to read it and reread it. Internalize it. I feel like one of us moving out would be a much better (for my sanity) option than living under one roof - but if I have to, I will live under one roof.

4. Continue to do something. Do whatever to get my mind off things and get some distance. I can't be researching every minute - it feels like obsessing over this whole situation.

5. Stop fucking talking to her above anything other than 'okays' and getting general info from her. I can't handle anything else right now.

6. Maybe keep a journal. It depends on how much free time I have. I love writing, but I'm already on this board, sending stuff to my friends, and all that.

Above all if I can make some progress on these 6 things (especially 5) I think I will be minuscule-y better tomorrow.

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 6:58 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

You need to draw the line in the sand clearly and honestly! Then walk away and leave it to her to do what she wants. If she does nothing then continue to walk away. If she goes all in for the OM continue to walk away. Continue to walk away until she’s done work on herself to become someone you would work toward again.

What happened to the letter you were writing her. You are still trying to force her to do things she is not willing to do. That’s you leading the recover, not her.

She is still in the A. So you need to draw the line in the sand and then detach. Stop engaging. Little discussions or arguments are not going to do it.

Push her to him. Show her that life with him means life without you and make that real to her RIGHT NOW.

So use the longer letter I wrote or the shorter one to craft your own words but again, the message needs to be clearly this:I am in no way interested in being in a relationship where I am not my partners one and only love. Until you can willingly take the steps necessary to make me feel I am that person for you, we have nothing else to discuss. I wish you well in finding what you are looking for. I am no longer interested in discussing anything else while you are actively having an affair with another man.

Write it, send it, then walk away. No more discussion.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:25 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

TheLostOne2020,

She’s wobbling because she still think she has options. Make it real for her, Get some divorce paper, it will either wake her up or it won’t. But either way you’re out of infidelity which should be your objective.

Why don’t you go out with your kids? Have some fun. It will help.

The only one trying and bleeding is you.

Stop. Making. Her. Trying. To. Get. It.

Stop. Trying. To. Reason. With. Her.

Stop. Avoiding. The. Hard. 180.

I totally agree with stevesn and The1stWife. What you are actually learning the hard way is that engaging with her is useless and exhausting. A waste of time. Stevesn has given you an excellent template. Implement a hard 180, which is kinda where you’re heading anyway. This is all maddening and crazy-making but you are handling it. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 8:15 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

Flip the script.

It shouldn't be about what she has to work out and the decision she has to make, it should be about the decision you have to make.

Next time she approaches you with a comment or to talk, let her know you came to this realization. Say you need some time away to think about whether this was deal breaker for you and if you can stay in the marriage. Then leave for the night or a couple days. Stay at a hotel one night. Get some space and privacy to let your hurt and rage out.

Why are you making her a priority when you are just an option to her?

At this time your weakness is defining you. Unless you change that you’ll stay where you are.

Do you like living this life? You are the only one keeping yourself there.

I get home and schools are closed. Okay. She sends me a text about it. I say I know, thank you.

Later in the morning she comes up - she says she expects to hear from the therapist today. I say okay. She says a few other things, I give 'okays' or whatever. No substantial talk.

I know where we are at and where we are headed. I have to focus on just shutting the fuck up in front of her because it's just draining me.

Looking at the above, I think you're getting the essence of communication under the 180 regime. I agree, a separation is in order for you to regain some sanity and heal from this. However, economically and legally this just isn't always feasible, no matter how crazy she makes you and how strident people on here and Reddit are saying "leave her, dump her!" It's a grim situation to be in, but if she's on the loan, you can't exactly put her shit on the porch.

The good news is you at least recognize that her constant intrusion into life and desire to confront you is driving you a little nutty and it's setting you back. The only way forward is to disconnect her by minimizing responses to her. You provide a good example of this above. BTW, I know you already know this. I'm only being supportive. Three plus years ago, I was going through a very similar situation-- faithless spouse, dithering responses and trickle truths, and just plain lies. With an in house separation added in. It was sickening and so, sooo triggering. Believe me, I know where you are. I didn't know what a 180 was at the time, but I had figured out the minimal contact bit on my own. I wish I had stumbled on SI back then, sigh.

You cannot control her. You cannot make her "get it". The only thing you can control is what you do next. As so many people have pointed out the major goal NOW is to get you out of infidelity. One way or the other. I like the progress you've made so far, actually. You see her for what she is, and I sense the direction you want to go. Ultimately, it's your show.

Keep up the good work, brother, it is not as desperate as it seems right now.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 10:58 AM, January 7th (Tuesday)]

I think at this point you simply should file for D and have her served without warning, she's not a child and should know that fucking another man while being married has catastrophic consequences for the M, moreover continuing to talk to OM means she's still in an active A. You don't seem to want to do much about it, stop arguing and take action, EXPOSE the A with ALL family and close friends TODAY and file for D. I may sound like a broken record on this but I think this is what you need to do.

D takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around and ends her A, offers full on demand access to her phone and all electronic devices and passwords, sends an NC FOREVER text to OM in front of you, commits to IC with someone who specializes in infidelity (very important), and does the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed, otherwise just let the D process run its course and get out of infidelity.

I'll be honest with you... I'd just put out the ultimatum at this point and be done. I'd tell her to choose either marriage or divorce and to do it right then, not some nebulous time in the future when she feels ready. I'd point out that it takes TWO to reconcile and that after this, I wouldn't be available as I would be committed to the divorce process. It's unconscionably cruel to keep you on tenterhooks like this after you've been psychological ABUSED and enough is enough.

If she chooses the marriage, she writes an email which establishes NO CONTACT, she gives it to you for approval, and she sends it right in front of you. After that, she closes all social media and email addresses, changes her phone numbers, and provides passwords to all new emails and apps.

If she chooses divorce, you end discussion and hire an attorney in order to file as soon as possible. I know this is a scary option for you, but take some time exploring it. Imagine not being accountable to her anymore. Imagine having your own space to do with as you will, spending YOUR time with the children and parenting the way YOU want to. Imagine meeting someone else, possibly someone more compatible, who is truly into you. Imagine your freedom from an abusive relationship and all you might accomplish on your own, hobbies you've let go of for years, new interests to acquire.

You're still very fresh from DDay and still emotionally enmeshed, so it's understandably difficult to imagine another life for yourself. But no cheater is owed a second chance. You're not even required to offer her that ultimatum. You could make a decision today to just be done with her, design a new life going forward with just you and your children. Even if it's 50% of the time, it's YOUR 50%, doing what you want to do and no longer catering to your selfish WW's demands. Just think about it. The fuller you can creatively visualize your new life, the less scary it is to contemplate the loss of the old one. From what you've said, you've only been with this one woman... and there's a world of them out there. Women who don't lie and cheat are out there.

Doing the 180 helped me tremendously for the short few months I had to stay in the house with my STBXWW. You should be working to minimize your communication with your WW as much as possible. You cannot do that by being at her beck and call.

Visit two or three more lawyers for free consults and find a lawyer who is affordable. If you and your WW have basic agreements about how the assets should be split and if you agree on custody arrangements, then there is almost always a way for lawyers to fast track the divorce process and save you money. I live in a fairly expensive town, but because I made my WW a fair offer and provided all the leg work up front, I'm probably only going to be out $15-20k or so by the time it's all said and done.

Or, maybe you could hire a paralegal who specializes in divorce and who can act as a mediator. Some states allow non-lawyers to do this. Look into that and see if these are available. They are usually a lot cheaper.

Do the 180 in earnest. Treat your WW like furniture and stop talking to her! Start packing up your personal belongings into boxes. Start separating your life from hers. Begin the process of moving on, even though you may not be going anywhere for a while. Don't say what you will do, just do. When she sees this happening she will realize that you are moving on and, like my WW, she will eventually stop bothering to talk to you. Believe me, unless she falls on her knees sobbing and begging you to forgive her, there is nothing she can really say that you need to hear.

The only one trying and bleeding is you.

Stop. Making. Her. Trying. To. Get. It.

Stop. Trying. To. Reason. With. Her.

Stop. Avoiding. The. Hard. 180.

Completely agree with this.

Plus. No arguing. Just say "I'm sorry your feel that way"

No telling her to give him up. Just say "You do what you must and so will I".

All other communication should be about the kids. Until you are finally feed up and ready to pull the trigger to get out of infidelity and this hell she has put you in. Then talk finances and separation.