SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You can’t force someone to be in love with you. People fall out of love. Really sad when they wait 20+ years and then to top it off they don’t tell you but sneak around with a loser. Anyway, I think you let the fear push you way to fast into reconciliation. All you got so far is a spouse who says she wants to reconcile. But honestly, does she? You know she is a liar and a cheater. And you didn’t really let her choose. Best option even now, is to take a step back and decide what’s best for you. She has been an open book. I feel bad that you look at her and see her “feeling bad about what she did”, because that’s nothing really. There is no way you can tell whether she feels bad for losing her real true love or if she feels bad about what she did to you. I’m not telling you to divorce her, but you gotta detach a bit. It’s the only way you will ever have a chance of making a good decision.

And we were never perfect. Otherwise this wouldn't have happened

Harry, every marriage has problems -- but marriage NEVER causes someone to CHOOSE to cheat. That very particular decision belongs entirely to your wife.

WS tend to magnify any marriage difficulties in an attempt to justify their behavior.

I'm for whatever you eventually choose to be your path, but don't let any of the blame to cheat -- be on you.

If you to choose to try to work it out, the marriage issues can be ironed out down the road, but there is no place to re-start any kind of relationship until she completely owns her poor choices and pulls her head out of this fantasy that the A was anything 'special'.

The last couple of days have been difficult.

Before we went to bed two nights ago my WS told me she understood why I told the OBS - that I had a right to do what I felt was right and that the OBS did have a right to know.

Our MC was yesterday and at times I felt like I was getting ganged up on. It was kind, empathetic ganging up, but I was defensive. The gist of things was "You should have talked this out with your WS first and made a decision as a team - I shouldn't have done this on my own - it shows lack of trust in your WS". What what what? I really like the MC but this was hard to hear. (No, not going to drop the MC - she's been too helpful)

I asked my WS, "If I were to have asked you about this, would you have wanted me to contact the OBS?"

"No, probably not", she said.

So I was supposed to have a conversation about this with someone I knew would say "Don't do that" and who also still has some sort of feelings for the AP? I'm supposed to expose myself to that? I'm actually intellectually curious about this - has anyone in the history of the universe done this? It makes no sense except as a way to make her feel more secure about me, I guess. Maybe I could have just gone ahead after the talk and informed the OBS. BUT THEN wouldn't I have been guilty of not taking my WS's feelings into account? At least I was hearing her, then making my own decision, though...

So I wasn't a good team player. I guess I can own that - and in fact, I think that's fine in certain areas because I frankly don't and can't trust her.

[Chapter II - 2 hours after therapy and we're zombies]

OBS posts a single, crude message about my WS on the FB page of the company she works for. They remove it and let her know that they are there for her. OBS also tries to friend WS

So now I feel like I own this. "If I hadn't told the OBS, she wouldn't have posted that stuff".

We spend most of the rest of the day apart and rally for a nice walk and dinner out at the end of the day. It was wonderful and I felt grateful to the world.

[Chapter 3 - Rise and shine, Saturday]

OBS sends 4-5 friend requests to WS with nastier, meaner messages: "Did you think about my kids, I hope you lose your job, your hubby should leave you", with lots of 4 letter words thrown in.

Again, I feel partial ownership of this as I knew things could spin out of control once the genie was out of the bottle.

WS is out again walking and to get coffee/journal. It's a relief, actually. I can think straight(er).

One bit of brightness in my day - all of the AP's profiles on Social Media are gone. Poof! Poor guy not able to project how wonderful he is to the rest of the world.

At this point I believe:

- I did the right thing for me

- That we'll get through this

- That we're still dealing with consequences of the A, and until that's done, we're sort of just playing house and make belief. There is still more pain ahead. I and/or WS are fooling ourselves to think anything differently.

- WS is still NC and has no intention of reaching out to AP. I'm not going to try not to stress about it, but I will be vigilant. If she does, I detach and we see what happens.

- WS is feeling naked. If OBS goes nuclear, should could get outed to folks who don't know

- WS is very angry at me for what I've done but at the same time knows she had it coming

- WS still wants to keep working on our M, as do I.

I just read through that list and see only one reference to "I / me" . The rest is "Her - We - Us". Jesus.

So, serious question. I think I am co-dependent. Has anyone gone to meetings on that? Were they any good?

Happy Saturday! (Sorry, can't resist)

[This message edited by HarryChicago at 12:42 PM, July 28th (Saturday)]

Bro you really need to snap out of this.

Firstly a MC is not a judge. Just a highly trained theorist, their word is not law.

When someone tells you something that is quite obviously wrong like the sky is orange when it's blue, you don't argue down somewhere in the middle.

You telling the OBS is not a team decision no more than your wife considering you during her affair.

You rob a store the police do not pick you up then ask you if they can talk to your family to gather evidence. Your wife f*cked up royally. You took your balls and told the obs because right is right.

Now you block the obs, and if she keeps harassing your wife you call the cops or go to court to get an protection order. But this is the price of an affair. No discussions, you get treated like an adult with a very firm hand.

Next time you go to this MC, stand your ground or better yet if you feel strongly that the narrative is getting twisted to put some blame on you, fire them altogether and get yourself a new one.

You want your wife to respect your position then do not bend and be like steel. The obs is not on her ass because of what you did, this is all on her.

Consequences are not a bad thing. She had an affair with a married man. He had a wife and kids. She needs to own her shit. You reap what you sew.

Better put your Mr Nice Guy away. And your MC is a rugsweeper.

You showed no trust? Good god almighty. Who the hell woild at this time? No one with any common sense.

You didn’t cause any of this. Cut the MC she’s a waste of time.

The best thing I heard about healing - bar none - was 'You heal you; she heals her; together you heal the M.'

Or,

BS heals BS;

WS heals WS;

together they heal the M, if that's what they both are willing to work for.

Telling OBS is part of 'BS heals BS.'

The MC's client is your M; she owes a fiduciary duty to it, so she wants to use every opportunity to build a team.

You could have asked your W,but as you know, you didn't have to. You could tell OBS even if your W objected - that's part of your healing, as I wrote above, and it's also part of being an autonomous individual in your M.

I'm really sorry OBS is harassing your W. Can't she complain to FB?

Gosh. I don't think you really want to reconcile. You are doing exactly what most people who fail to save their marriage. You see it's not your job to save your marriage. It's the WS. People love the thing they feel they can't have. And you are making it clear that the PoSoM is the real catch. he isn't doing anything at this moment and your wife is pining for him. Meanwhile, you are clawing to stay with her.

You have to get control of yourself. You just have to. The first thing you need to do is stop going to marriage counselling. You are trying to fix the wrong thing. The marriage isn't the problem. Her actions are the problems. A marriage counselor can only help a couple who wants to be together. Your wife doesn't know what she wants right now. You have to accept that. You cannot try to apply logic to this situation, she literally might think that this guy was the love of her life., Who knows, you can't trust anything she says because you have created a situation in her mind where she thinks you will never pick what's right for you over her. And to be 100% honest with you, she'd be a fool to trust you a this moment. Because this really isn't you. This is simply a stage in the process. Read through other stories, and you will see yourself in so many of the early pages. This is the stage where your whole world has been overturned and you are desperate to save it. Your merely the captain of a sinking ship. And you are convinced that you either save it or drown with it. But I assure you that eventually you will wake up one day and your biggest worry won't be saving a marriage to a woman who might not even love you anymore.

I think you should go on a vacation by yourself. Just head somewhere for a week. Just to get some space from all this. Don't sugar coat it for your wife. Tell her you are going to get some distance so you can really think about everything that has happened. When you leave, don't call her at all. let her call you. really just see how she reacts. the sooner you can stop trying to save "it", the sooner you can see how she really feels. See if she pines for you.

I gotta say, in my mind you are 100% better than your wife. And it's likely that deep down she knows that. But the way you are acting it is creating an illusion. you are making yourself the desperate lover and merely a prison for her to remain trapped in. And if you think I'm kidding read up on the nonsense these cheaters believe. They live in delusions.

My exWW, let me tell you, she literally forgot that before I came along she had terrible relationship, one after another. She once told me that she had begun to accept the idea that she'd never get married. Fast forward a few years, and she imagined that I wasn't letting her be free. She missed her old life. After my DDAY, she assumed I'd be bending over backwards to win her back. She literally believed that. I know what she believed because she was so silly to write a journal on a google doc that I had access to. Anyway, when I told her that I wanted her to be free so that she could find herself and find her soulmate, man did the fog clear up quickly after that.

Now I'm not saying that will happen for you. Your wife might really want to be with someone else. But either way, if she doesn't want to be with you, you have to let her go. And if she does want to be with you she needs to breaking her back to save the marriage. It simply cannot be you saving it. You can't save it. She is the only person with a shot at doing that. Because once you get to the anger stage, who knows if you even want to be married to her.

The only thing your MC is doing from your posts is putting your $’s into her kids college fund.

What’s she really doing for you?

Save the marriage at all cost? Keep those funds flowing?

None of what the OBS is doing - NONE OF IT - is on you. The OBS had 100% right to know. What she does in reaction to her pain was all avoidable by your WW and the OM.

If the OBS gets out of line, that can be dealt with. But even then, a WS should be reminded that when you make the decision to have sex with another woman's husband, eventually there will be a price to pay, and it may be uncomfortable.

Can your MC explain why you are supposed to have trust in your WW at this moment? That's something that your wife needs to earn back. She threw it away. It would be nice if you could operate as a team again, but the team was torn apart by her actions. You need to repair the damage before you worry about the other stuff.

You did not cause the OBS's anger. The affair did. You simply informed her of the affair so she could make informed decisions about her own life and health. Many would say you had an ethical obligation to do so, since cheating can't exist if the cheaters don't take away their spouse's autonomy by giving them false information.

Please remember that you are not responsible for protecting your wife from the natural consequences of her actions, consequences that any rational adult would have seen coming when she chose to have an affair. It says a lot about the dynamics in your marriage and your wife's lack of ownership if she turns this into a situation where she is the martyr.

OW lives on another continent, but we do have a few close friends in common. After DDay my husband informed them that he couldn't communicate with OW any more, and they reported that they ran into her and she was sobbing about her heartache, and they subsequently dropped her as a friend. My husband shared this with me in a panicked way, like he was expecting me to support him in feeling bad for the OW for experiencing this small consequence. I said coldly, "Well, that's none of my concern," and told him to reach out to a friend if he needed someone to help him with those feelings. But whaddayaknow, none of his friends thought he or the OW deserved any sympathy either.

Any discomfort or embarrassment or shame that she is experiencing is 100% her fault. You did the OBS a kindness. Your wife should have worried about the OBS being vindictive before she had an affair with her husband.

it shows lack of trust in your WS".

I would have probably responded, "Well, no shit Sherlock. Exactly what solid reasons have I been given to trust this person."

wouldn't I have been guilty of not taking my WS's feelings into account?

A really remorseful person would know that she caused this outcome (as did the OM) and that because she has lied enough, being truthful is the only way to become a decent human again.

So I wasn't a good team player.

There is no team at this point. Your wife broke up the band when she decided unilaterally to have an affair. She just didn't tell you.

Your MC doesn't sound terribly versed in dealing with infidelity. You still have a gushing wound from your wife stabbing you and the MC is treating your wound and the blister your wife has from using the knife too aggressively as the same thing. This is problematic.

OBS posts a single, crude message about my WS on the FB page of the company she works for. They remove it and let her know that they are there for her. OBS also tries to friend WS

So now I feel like I own this. "If I hadn't told the OBS, she wouldn't have posted that stuff".

Correction: If your wife had not inserted herself into that woman's life by having an affair with the OM, there would have been nothing to post. This is your wife reaping what she has sown.

You were decent to a person who needed to know that she needs to get an STD test. You may very well have saved that woman's life. Your wife is embarrassed because she has done things she SHOULD be ashamed about.

You don't own this. Your wife does and she needs to get about the business of truly owning her actions and accepting the consequences of her bad choices.

OBS sends 4-5 friend requests to WS with nastier, meaner messages: "Did you think about my kids, I hope you lose your job, your hubby should leave you", with lots of 4 letter words thrown in.

Your wife did not think about this woman, her kids or YOU. She thought only about herself. She threw a stick of dynamite into a family and had literally no regard for the damage it would cause. You didn't let a genie out of the bottle - you just quit hiding your wife's crimes. You are no longer an accomplice to the murder of another family.

You have shown yourself to be the kind of person who chooses the right thing over the easy thing. I hope your wife realizes she should be looking at you as a signpost of how someone acts when they have integrity.

One bit of brightness in my day - all of the AP's profiles on Social Media are gone. Poof! Poor guy not able to project how wonderful he is to the rest of the world.

Your wife may want to follow suit or at least block the OBS. Not that she doesn't deserve to hear how she contributed to another person's pain, but hopefully she has heard enough to gain some empathy.

- That we're still dealing with consequences of the A, and until that's done, we're sort of just playing house and make belief. There is still more pain ahead. I and/or WS are fooling ourselves to think anything differently.

The consequences will last for a long time. You have to work through them actively. Trauma has to be processed. You can do this, but playing house and pretending everything is well never improves the situation.

- WS is feeling naked. If OBS goes nuclear, should could get outed to folks who don't know

She needs to own that vulnerability. She could control it if she is brave enough to be honest with those who may need to know. For example, she may need to let her boss know as things were posted on the company website.

- WS is very angry at me for what I've done but at the same time knows she had it coming

A remorseful person would only be angry at themselves for creating this reality. You acted with integrity. This isn't a punishment you doled out, this is what she made happen with her own actions. This is imperative to a successful R.

So, serious question. I think I am co-dependent. Has anyone gone to meetings on that? Were they any good?

I got more out of IC and books than groups but your mileage may vary.

Don't sweat it.

You did the absolute right thing in informing obs; let the chips fall where they may.

Separately, you indeed appear to be co-dependent, but not morbidly so. I've seen worse.

Don't overthink the situation.

"You should have talked this out with your WS first and made a decision as a team - I shouldn't have done this on my own - it shows lack of trust in your WS"

Harry, this is one of the many reasons why I tend to dissuade a BS from going to MC this early out. To begin with, if this is anything close to a verbatim quote, the word "should" would have set off alarm bells for me. There is no reason why a therapist 'should' be using this word. This isn't a 'team' decision. It's the right thing to do and if experience serves as any kind of guide the vast majority of WS would be dead-set against the idea of informing an OBS. My FWW went through all sorts of bullshit trying to talk me out of it. That may be part of the reason why I hesitated as long as I did. The next time you see your MC (if you decide to go back) I would ask her to expand upon the logic of this 'should' statement. Far too many therapists lack credible experience and wisdom when it comes to infidelity.

There's another reason why MC this early out can be (and of is) detrimental. Marriages don't cheat; people cheat. I've been around SI for over three years now and I can tell you that the state of a marriage is absolutely irrelevant. I've read from a great many members who have written about troubled marriages. I've read from plenty of members who believed that they had a good (or even great) marriage, only to find out that their spouses cheated. It really doesn't seem to matter much. Wayward spouses cheat because of their own issues.

Going to marriage counseling early on after D-day is a lot like putting the cart before the horse. Until your WW is ready for MC, there's really no point. Again, after so many years on this site, I've read from more members than I could possibly remember who went to MC with a WS who was still lying, still blame-shifting, still unwilling or unable to own and fix their shit. I'm not saying this is true of your WW, but it's entirely possible.

I would highly recommend that your make IC for your WW a condition of R. This is something that I eventually did, about six months after D-day, because members here repeatedly encouraged me to do so. It was one of the best pieces of advice I received here.

As for the OBS's rage, well, brother, it's to be expected. If the OBS continues to harass your WW, the solution is rather simple. No more social media. Humans survived just fine for thousands of years with Fakebook and the like. I'm sure your WW can live with out it as well. I, for one, have ZERO social media accounts and I'm doing just fine. As others have pointed out, if it becomes a problem, involve the law. Document everything and keep it for reference.

So, serious question. I think I am co-dependent. Has anyone gone to meetings on that? Were they any good?

After just a few meetings with her IC, my FWW understood that her CoD tendencies were off-the-charts. She still struggles with it. Codependency is an extremely common issue with both WS and BS. You'll read about it all over these boards. It's also an extremely common reaction to the betrayal of infidelity. You'll find an excellent article about this in the Healing Library. There's also a specific thread dedicated to CoD tendencies in the "I Can Relate" forum. If you think that you have strong CoD tendencies, I would highly recommend Melonie Beattie's book on the subject. You might consider IC for yourself, as well.

The best advice I can give you, brother, is to focus on you, your recovery and healing. Step-back and detach, watch and observe what your WW does. Find your own peace of mind, because reconciliation and healing takes a long, long time. Two to five years.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:14 PM, July 28th (Saturday)]

I'M not going to tell you to find a new MC. I'M going to say don't go to an MC at all. Neither of you are ready and it seems like MC is not getting to the issue of trust and betrayal. This looks like a potential rugsweeping scenario to me... You guys need IC until your wife has dealt with her issues and you are emotionally stable enough to process most of your feelings to make a decision of MC. IMHO, MC is a huge mistake in the early stages of discovering infidelity.

We started MC days after dday, and I stopped it a couple of weeks after, it was too soon.

About 6 months later we started again with a different MC, and it almost broke me mentally. I didn’t feel heard, and felt it was ok for my WS to bring up EVERYTHING I did every since he knew me that he didn’t agree with. I will admit that I am not perfect, my house will never pass the white glove dust test, but I never did anything that would hurt our vows. Stopped seeing that MC also.

So if you aren’t feeling heard, or think it is helping you with your MC, take a break.

Kiddos to you for telling the OBS. I wish someone had let me know what was going on when my WH was cheating. You did her a big favor, her dr needs to know she is not in a monogamous relationship.

Harry, you absolutely did the right thing. The OBS has the right to know, and whatever consequences your WW may have to face ARE ON YOUR WW.

Your wife had an A.

I contacted OBS without the knowledge of my WH. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Your wife does not get a say in how you need to process this.

Tren and Marz hit the nail on the head, so I will not rehash.

Your MC is an idiot. How much are you paying this charlatan for bad advice? I would suggest in the strongest possible terms to discontinue going. "Make this decision as a team"? WTF? Did your WW consult with you as a "team" before entering into an A?

"Showed a lack of trust"? Um, she lied to me, cheated on me, and is still in love with the asshole she cheated with. Show me even one reason I should trust her at this point.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:53 AM, July 29th (Sunday)]

We also ran off to MC right away. I think at the time I wanted someone to give us warm fuzzies and help us remember why we loved each other, but all she did was hammer my husband for being selfish and wrong. So in retrospect it was useful because he needed a good kick in the rear and I needed to hear that I wasn't supposed to be fixing the marriage at that moment. We transitioned to IC for each of us instead.

HarryChicago

Harry - you need to take over the helm of your boat. That and change what you want to see into reality. Have you read many stories on this blog?

Go through The Healing Library reading everything and then do it again.

Your spouse's decision to get her emotional fix from a married man is her issue. She needs to fix that on her own. If you two have lost "that loving feeling," then you need to talk.

If she isn't willing, you need to do the 180 and prepare for learning how to cook and wash clothes on your own.

Butforthegrace cuts to the jist of what you need for starters:

Your MC is an idiot. How much are you paying this charlatan for bad advice? I would suggest in the strongest possible terms to discontinue going. "Make this decision as a team"? WTF? Did your WW consult with you as a "team" before entering into an A?

"Showed a lack of trust"? Um, she lied to me, cheated on me, and is still in love with the asshole she cheated with. Show me even one reason I should trust her at this point.

I had a good day yesterday.

@AtLastFree said:

I think you should go on a vacation by yourself.

And I kind of did - took a long walk by myself and just sort of wandered. Found a coffee shop and spent the morning and most of the afternoon there. I read, wrote, and talked to an old friend who probably could have been the world's best therapist if he wanted to be. He asked me some awesome questions. Had a late lunch, then wandered and read my way back to the house. I arrived home feeling at peace and centered.

I'm so hyper-vigilant about my WS's emotional state (What does that facial expression mean? Is she thinking about AP? Did I do something wrong? What can I do to fix this?). Both the MC and my IC have told me to relax. My IC in stronger terms - kind of similar to what you guys have said - "Work on your own stuff, don't worry about her. You can't fix your way into a better place."

Taking a break from her was night and day for me. I'm going to do it every day. I need to detach from the situation more. And I'm going to work on that.

When I got home we talked about the telling-the-OBS thing again, and I told her that I simply don't trust her when it comes to her feelings about the AP and wouldn't for years. That I didn't mean for this to hurt her, but it wasn't her or even the OBS, really - it was about me. I told her that I regretted that things got out of control with the nasty FB posting, but that these were the real-world consequences of the decisions that she made and she was going to have to deal with them. I told her I loved her but I did the right thing and I'd do it again.

She got it. Far fewer tears this time. More rational.

So anyway, the MC thing. Seems I struck a chord there. There were tons of strong reactions.

Question: Am I nuts or is there a (fairly strong) anti-MC bias on SI? I see a fair amount of "fire your MC" advice on other threads. What's up with that?

On my situation:

Tren:

Firstly a MC is not a judge. Just a highly trained theorist, their word is not law.

Yeah. Point taken.

Marz:

Cut the MC she’s a waste of time.

Nope. She's not. Part of the (long time) problem my WS and I have had is that we're BOTH rugsweepers - we avoid conflict. Hell, you've been pushing me to do the right things for months now (and thanks, btw. I don't always agree and I don't always take your advice, but it's good to hear).

The MC has gotten us to the point where I feel I can expre.ss myself and do. She's given us a framework to talk about stuff. If nothing else, having a space to talk about whatever is "this week's problem" is worth the price of admission. She's also kept some conversations from going off the rails. So while I think what she said was completely wrong, she gets a pass. I don't know what was going on in her head.

sisoon:

The MC's client is your M; she owes a fiduciary duty to it, so she wants to use every opportunity to build a team.

This makes sense to me and is as good as an explanation as any for what she said. No new FB grenades thus far, so perhaps we're out of the woods. This situation has gotten WS thinking about telling her sister about the A - to get ahead of things in case there is 3rd party disclosure and to have someone to talk to about it.

StruggleBus & DIFM & swmbc. Yes. What you said. I know it, but it's good to hear it again. Reassuring to know that I did the right thing. StruggleBus I laughed out loud when I read "No shit, Sherlock". People in the coffee shop prlly thought I was a crazy person.

Unhinged:

All: I do find that MC has been worthwhile for me, and think for the WS as well. The points that you all have made are valid - collectively, this board has "seen it all".

I'm not going to discontinue MC. Right now, it's good for me. I'll be careful about rugsweeping.

The stuff you folks have said about (essentially) "Running the MC playbook when WS isn't 100% through her fog is dumb" resonates. I will discuss with my IC and think on it myself.

the word "should" would have set off alarm bells for me.

MC never told me what to do, no "shoulds" used. The message was clear from context, though.

Anyway, I'm tired of typing. Going to get some coffee and revisit this later

Thanks all. I've had a love/hate relationship with this place, but I'm glad I found it :)