SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My buddy lawyer gave me a funny tip on post nups during reconciliation.

Especially if you were main "controller" of finances in the household.

His advice was to GROSSLY overinflate net-worth and valuations on assets. When the WS looks at the financial disclosure and their eyes pop out of their head or they refuse to sign you will really know what actually matters to them. They will be thinking "I could have half that!" instead of "let me sign this and work things out".

good test, i dunno, what say you folks?

LoL

If my H gave me a post-nup that was wildly out of sync with my understanding of our finances, of course I would ask for more information before signing. That doesn't prove I'm a gold digger or that I lack commitment to R. It's proof of basic common sense.

I also know that if I wanted to make a point by signing anyway, I could do so without any risk. Its inaccuracy and my lack of legal representation would render it completely unenforceable.

I agree with BSR.

I would also question the enforceability of a legal document that (knowingly) grossly misrepresents the actual state of finances, (something that can easily be disproved).

I also don’t think a wayward spouse who says or does whatever their BS demands without question (particularly where the demand is unreasonable), is necessarily a good candidate for R. A good candidate for R needs to be able to hold reasonable boundaries, even with their own spouse.

"I also know that if I wanted to make a point by signing anyway, I could do so without any risk. Its inaccuracy and my lack of legal representation would render it completely unenforceable."

A rough draft should be shared before any signatures for sure. Corrections and Oversights happen wink wink.

It's the test that matters.

I bet a large number of post nups are litigated in every State, but once a clear breach is made by an offending party of one it's provisions, its gonna be tough and expensive to have a judge say the basic deal parameters aren't enforceable.

I did not require a post nup because the lawyers are going to spend more of our money fighting over it. I figured it better to just settle and go our separate ways if R fails. I think going into it with false or misleading information is a really bad idea.

sad,

You seem to be thrashing around, attacking WSes and not focusing on your healing. You're just prolonging your pain. You're doing yourself a great disservice.

I think you're getting bad advice.

From a lawyer website:

Each state has its own requirements for postnuptial agreements, so be sure to check your state’s laws. Generally, a postnup must meet the following criteria:

written—an oral agreement dividing marital assets isn’t enforceable

signed—both spouses have to sign the agreement and should have it notarized

voluntary—one spouse can’t threaten, deceive, coerce, or physically force the other spouse to sign the agreement: If that occurred, the contract isn't enforceable.

fair—a postnuptial agreement can’t be extremely one-sided or unfair

full disclosure—both spouses must disclose information about their assets, income, debts, and property.

If I were a judge dealing with 'Person A', who states that $1,000,000 in assets was worth $2,000,000, in a D I'd rule that Person A would be responsible for making sure their partner got $1,000,000 in the asset split. That leaves Person A with nothing.

I see no point in lying. I see a lot of benefit in not disclosing one's strengths, weakness, and resources, but I just wouldn't lie, especially to someone I'm angry at for lying. Two wrongs simply do not make a right.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:50 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

In what way has the OP been "attacking WS’s"? I’m asking in the spirit of accuracy and fairness.

Posting as a member, but maybe as an attaché who has a slightly wider permit to be open, frank and blunt than maybe other staff-members, and even the occasional audacity of posting stuff like this without passing it by the mods…

Before entering this Reconciliation forum you should see this text:

A wonderful place to share your struggles, success stories, and triggers while trying to reconcile. There is to be no name calling in this forum. Venting is to be limited to you and/or your partner. Please post respectfully and constructively keeping in mind the goal for this forum is to reconcile. It's a long road, but you can do it!

I feel a need to point this out to you saditsover, because to-date you have started two threads in the Reconciliation forum, and the first made it very clear that you don’t think anyone can ever reconcile. This site is rather permissive on letting people voice their views as long as it’s done within the guidelines. That thread broke the guidelines of THIS forum – the Reconciliation forum – and was moved to General where its sparked a lively debate about the validity of your claim.

What has this thread – this suggestion about a postnup – have to do with reconciliation? Why are you posting it in a forum where users are focusing on something you have publicly stated doesn’t exist?

I’m going to suggest you stick to the correct forums – like post this in General – because this suggestion really adds little if anything constructive here in the Reconciliation forum – as per the guidelines posted before entering here.

Regarding the idea… I have to say I find it strange and doubt it’s valid.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:18 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

I'm the bigger earner but my wife does well for herself too. I had her write down what she thought was fair if we D because otherwise I get screwed because she gets the affair, half of everything and alimony.

Anyway under her proposal she leaves my retirement alone and will forgo alimony.

That was enough skin in the game for me. I feel for BS with a stay at home WS because WS doesn't have the resources to support themself and a shitty post nup would almost financially encourage a new exit affair...

I am the WS and my W wanted a post-nup as a pre-condition to any possible R.

She wanted a sense of certainty in her life at a time when i turned her life upside down with my betrayal. If things were not going to work out, she didn't want to get screwed over by me yet again. As one who wants R, i thought her request was very reasonable and her rationale for it was sound.

While we each had our own attorneys, we hashed out most of the details out on our own. Then had the lawyers do drafting and review. They each recommended a few changes and i had to give a little more than what we initially came up with on the back of a napkin (literally, a napkin). By working collaboratively we were able to accomplish a few things - (1) a fair document, (2) minimized the legal fees, (3) created an opportunity for connection rather than being opponents.

I think the idea of inflating the numbers out of the gate is another form of betrayal. You've already demonstrated to your spouse that you lie and cheat. All of us who have been unfaithful lied and cheated. It's just a fact. So why be dishonest with a post nup? If you want to R, you need to start showing you have the capability for integrity. The numbers are so easily verifiable, your attempt at deception will fail. Then what hope have you of R?

I think the lawyer's advise is just plain awful.

lonelypilgrim:

Just to clarify: saditsover is the BS and not the WS. I think you were confused on that point. He posted in the R forum, but he is not interested in pursuing R, he is pursuing D after a false R. And I think he is doing the best thing for him and his family. So this thread has nothing to do with pursuing R after working through and signing a post-nup with your WS. The thread as I understand it is to elicit reactions to using a ploy of falsifying and inflating your net worth and valuation of assets as a BS to flush out your WS true intentions of greed instead of true commitment to R if they sign the pre-nup thereby losing out on all of that fictitious wealth. As has been pointed out, this is awful advice. Just IMO, always value yourself, your integrity and honor, even when dealing with a WS.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:40 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

Got it, yep, i had it backwards. My apologies.

At least i got the answer right - it's bad advice and value your integrity.

The lawyer buddy is giving both bad legal advice and useless psychological advice. Five minutes on the Internet will tell the WS that they can sign the deceptive post-nup as "proof of remorse" and go right on cheating because it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. No judge will enforce it, at least in the U.S., so the test is meaningless.

When you play cheap, manipulative mind games with a WS, you're on their home turf.

I don't know much about post-nups, but this seems to me like a typical case of bluffing to get the truth (in this case, the truth about what really matters to the WS). In that sense, it is no different than insisting on a polygraph test (in hopes of a parking lot confession), threatening divorce (with no real intention of going through with it), giving ultimatums (while knowing it’s just an empty threat), and so on.

What I learned here and from my own experience is that cheaters are master deceivers. First, they are so used to lying, that lying is their default state of mind. This means not only that they are good liars, but they are also good at recognizing lies. In other words, they are not gullible enough for a bluff to work. Second, lying is more cognitively demanding than telling the truth. This means they will most likely operate on a short-term basis and think about consequences only when it actually comes to them.

Just a silly example: very early after DDay I told my husband I should talk to the OW to verify what he told me. I wasn’t even bluffing – in that moment I really thought I’m gonna do that. He knew very well I’m too proud to actually do that. He also knew the best thing for him at that moment, to appear honest, is to agree (otherwise I’d know he’s not telling me everything). When we talked about that situation years later, he basically told me 1. he didn’t think I’d go through with it, 2. he didn’t think what will happen if I do go through with it, 3. if I did go through with it, he’d find a way to deal with it later (more lies, more manipulation, etc).

You see, you are trying to play games against a better / more experienced player. (TBH, I’m not surprised this advice came from a lawyer.) You are trying to outsmart the "enemy" on their own territory. Lies, bluffing, manipulation, games – those are your wife’s places of strength, she has the high ground here. If you want to "win", you need to entice her to come down to your home ground, to your place of strength ("Lure the tiger out of the mountains"!) In my experience, an efficient way to deal with liars is to be brutally honest with them.

Ofc, reconciliation is not a battle, and spouses are not enemies. The sooner both parties realize that, the better. However, if I understood correctly, you were in a false reconciliation, you had DDay2, your initial reaction / decision was to divorce. Perhaps there is still some hopium that the two of you have a chance at reconciliation. Before you give one more chance, you want some guarantees (like that post-nup test). Mate, there are no guarantees. Just focus on yourself, your children and on your healing. Don’t waste time and energy on stupid games, you’re better than that. I’m sorry you are going through this, and I wish you good luck!

  Moving to General

When I read the post, I didn't for one second believe saditsover was really going to do it, nor did I believe he thought it should be done.

The responses are interesting because when I read it, my idea for a response was to give him a gentle reminder to do breathing exercises, get physical exercise, see his doc for medications, etc. if he can't slow the brain down. I think I get him - everything about his life has entered the realm of the irrational and he's trying to make sense of it so his brain is in high gear, trying to find some footing, somewhere, somehow. His "flight" and "fight" impulses are at war with each other and causing a huge swirl of chaos in his mind. Anything but jump all over him as though he believed this is something that should actually be done. There are two good clues in his post that indicate he didn't believe the post nup would be real or would really be entered into: the last two lines. The one where he refers to it as a test (which is how he described it) and the LOL, meaning he saw it as a joke of sorts, a humorous way to figure out what's important to a WS who is making the outward motions of agreeing to a post-nup in order to R.

I also am a jokester when stressed. My granddaughter is not. She's 15 and I still keep upsetting her with my silly things because I never learn. Her boyfriend dumped her out of the blue and is now harassing her, calling her names and being really ugly toward her. He's only 14 but I swear he's acting just like my XWH and I'm hating every second of it, cuz he's the Big Man on Campus now, the brave one who takes charge of his life and she's skulking around, trying to lay low. So yesterday I started plotting "revenge" with her. I suggested blow darts to hit him with itching powder and a bunch of other stupid things. I don't know why, I just want her to laugh again and not be so broken and sad but to be clear, if I was making a REAL suggestion to her, I'd tell her to ignore him; I'd never really recommend any sort of revenge for anyone but especially not for a freshman in high school who will be there for 4 more years. But it was a mistake because even though everything I "suggested" was complete nonsense, it went over her head and she told me she's not interested in revenge and just wants him to leave her alone.

I think maybe something similar happened here.

Am I the only one who thinks this post was intended to be facetious and funny?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:52 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]