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I finally got my wife to agree to tell me everything about her affair that happened in 2006-7.

She'd been denying that it was ever physical. For almost 15 years she denied it. I all but knew it was. So I hounded her all this time. I brought it up at least every 6 months.

She never reconciled with me. Back in the day she refused to go to MC or IC. I wasn't going to force it because we were in MC when she was cheating.

Then. after about 6 months she started getting sick of lying, I guess, and started telling me "get over it" type of stuff.

So she finally agreed to tell me everything after another hounding by me.

But here's the crazy part. I cheated on her too. Multiple times. Maybe like 9 times all spread out over our 20 years, depending on your definition of cheating.

I went through a ton of self work in the last 5 years. Intensive therapy, working on myself. One of the things I realized is that I don't want to be in a marriage with lies.

So we went to the therapy session where she expected to tell me her affair. And she did. It turns out they had sex at least a dozen times.

But then I detailed all my infidelities over the years. I wanted to start with a fresh slate. No more lies from either of us. She only knew of a couple infidelities in the past. So this was bombshell information for her.

After MC she divulged more of her infidelities the next day. She actually cheated on me a separate time when she studied abroad way back in college before she ever even suspected I had betrayed her.

She also divulged other inappropriate sexual stuff that happened over the years of which there were a few more, like kissing other guys.

Now it's been a month or so since this happened. But we have had an extremely hard time. I feel bad for cheating on her. But I feel a lot worse that she cheated on me. IDK if that's a bad sign.

I wanted to give our dysfunctional marriage a chance of becoming something worth keeping. I thought the only way to fix things is to adopt a new relationship. One based on total honesty. And that meant I had to fess up to my stuff. And it also meant she had to tell me her's. IDK, I just really feel differently than I ever felt before going through therapy. A marriage based on lies is no longer something I want to waste my life on.

But we have 3 little kids. So I thought I should give it a real effort to fix this. To make this marriage into something that I'll be proud of in front of my children when they get older. Or to have the self respect to finally leave this toxic wasteland.

I know now that I have to voice my complaints in the marriage, instead of stepping out to try to get over my resentment in the dysfunction of it all. I now see that I have been shooting myself in the foot all these years. It accepting her crap and living in a one sided relationship that is the real issue. No amount of ONS can fix that. I'd been living my life by the Fool's Golden Rule. Treat others how they've treated you. Now I see why they call it foolish. It just debases my integrity. Now I can't imagine doing that. I learned that it's okay to leave people who hurt you. And I'm closer than ever to leaving this marriage. I think my wife could sense that, hence why she finally agreed to stop deceiving me.

But now I am really starting to feel lost.

After epic Dday, she told me no more rages and toxic fighting. I have honored that. I really learned a lot of communication skills in therapy, and I just don't need to get heated and have a blow out anymore. However, she keeps raging at me. As if that weren't bad enough. It's not like a normal fight where it escalates. She's the only one escalating now. I have calm discussions where I tell her how I feel and ask questions about her affairs. At some point she gets triggered by something I say, and lashes out at me. I remain calm during this, and try to tell her I am not able to have a rational discussion anymore, I am too upset. And then I try to leave the room or house. But she doesn't stop. She just follows me around yelling at me and getting in my face and saying hurtful stuff. It was my turn to ask questions and have her listen to me. And she keeps turning it around on me so she doesn't have to face her shame. She starts asking me questions suddenly and seems worked up, but even though I remain calm it doesn't help. She just flies of the handle.

She's actually a very manipulative person. And a liar. But again, in therapy I learned how to deal with manipulative people without getting upset myself. And ever since then I have been not allowing myself to be drug around a fight with a bunch of dirty tactics, like changing the subject, turning my complaint around on me and cross complaining, guilt trips, insults, projection, gaslighting. She does it all pretty regularly. But now it doesn't work for her. I just redirect the conversation back to my topic and call out her tactics.

It sort of feels like she has started raging more at me because those tactics no longer work. Raging is a way for her to control. And makes her feel justified. And allows her to let off steam.

But afterwards it makes me feel crappy for days. I don't want a wife who rages at me. Do you think this is something we can fix? I really don't know what else I can do to de-escalate. Other than going back to how things were before, and just crumple myself into a box to fit the marriage. Stop confronting her on her crap. I already tried that and it just didn't work for me. I don't want to build resentment anymore to where I end up acting out in different ways. That old me is dead. Now I feel bad though. I feel all the feelings of resentment at unfair treatment, anger, being shut down, sadness. And it tells me something. It says I don't want to be with a rage-aholic.

It feels like her rages take what little tiny bit of love and respect there is trying to sprout, and stomps all over it. Ever since she raged at me 3 weeks in a row, I have been thinking about my escape plan out of this marriage.

I don't trust her at all. I don't believe her that she's told me about all her infidelities. She admitted that if I hadn't come clean with all my stuff, that she would never have told me about the other affairs I had little idea of before. And in front of the MC she said she only told me about the other ones so I wouldn't feel as bad. I brought this up with her and she said she meant something else, not that she has anymore secrets.

I am just having a really hard time believing anything she says. IDK if this is ever going to change. Idk what to do. Will it get better? Will she finally listen to me?

It feels very similar to her old lying ways. It feels like she is lying and trying to manipulate me. I used to tamp down these feelings. But now I listen to my intuition, because so far, since therapy, it's been really astute.

But I'm not sure if I can trust myself. My emotions are high in general this last month. And I just found out about a lot of stuff that's hugely trust breaking. Will it ever come back? Will I always still feel like she is probably lying to me?

Your WW cheated, it got rug swept but resentment and anger on your part was obviously there, then you decide to have three kids, relatively recently it sounds, with what sounds to me like a toxic partner.

We’re your A’s revenge A? What was your mindset during all of this wrt staying with ur cheating wife? Why stay with her? Why have children relatively recently with someone who appears to be highly toxic?

I bring this up because the fact that you have young children is obviously playing a big role in whether you stay or go.

She's actually a very manipulative person. And a liar.

So are you.

You cheated ~9x over 20 years and didn't disclose it, and you're upset with her for lying to you for the last 15 years? It's a good thing that you've disclosed and are finally wanting to live in truth, but you can jump down off of that pedestal any time now. You've been just as toxic as she is, if not more so because you hounded her for 15 years like she was the bad guy without revealing that you were just as bad. That's some crazymaking behavior, man.

I feel bad for cheating on her. But I feel a lot worse that she cheated on me. IDK if that's a bad sign.

You seem to be in the victim mentality, painting her as a screaming, cheating shrew, when she's your victim as well. She just found out about YOUR 20y of betrayals a month ago and you're faulting her for having big emotions. Nah. Not cool.

Five years of intensive counseling and working on yourself and this is where you are? You were either extremely screwed up to begin with, your counselor sucks, or you're a narcissist incapable of seeing the truth in the mirror.

I don't usually come at people like this, but this is some serious nonsense.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 4:31 PM, Wednesday, October 6th]

The two of you will never have any sort of healthy marriage unless both of you shed the toxic behaviors., and want a better marriage through hard work.

From the little that you have stated, neither of you would be what we would call 'a good candidate for reconciliation' at this point. You are also referred to as 'madhatters' here, due to the fact that you are both wayward AND betrayed spouses. It just adds another mountain of garbage to sort through.

If nothing else, I assume that through counseling you have learned that you are not responsible for another person's actions. You didn't make her cheat. You didn't turn her into a raging partner, and you can't unturn her into a non-raging partner. She is the only one who can make these changes, so she will either put in the work....or she won't. But that part is out of your control. So let's focus on you.

These things may sound harsh, but they are simply an observation from the outside. Hopefully you will see it as constructive criticism, and not shut it out. So these few things stuck out:

--You mentioned that your wife is a liar and manipulator. How would you assess yourself? You lied to her face by omission every single day up until a month ago.

--You mentioned that you hounded her for years about her coming clean, but yet you didn't feel the need to reciprocate. It is almost as if your transgressions are 'less bad' in your mind for whatever reason(s).

--You recently discovered that your wife cheated on you a long time ago abroad before she ever suspected that you betrayed her. Did you betray her by this time, and if so, what does her suspicion have to do with anything? That she cheated before she even suspected you did? Like that is somehow more egregious?

--You say that you feel bad for hurting her with your cheating, but her cheating bothers you more. I see this simply as your lack of empathy for her, and some sort of disconnect as to where your cheating is somehow not as bad as hers. At least to you.

It's a lot of shit to unpack. She's probably got just as much baggage as you do. But you both have to ask yourselves--"Do I really want to be in this marriage? Do I want to uphold the promises of marriage that I took on my wedding day, and commit fully to this woman/man?" If so, then what do the two of you have to lose by getting vulnerable and trying? If not, then end the toxicity, and be the best coparents possible. But until the two of you put down ALL of the resentments and secrets, you are bailing water on a sinking ship.

Wow. Sounds like you think your cheating was ok and hers wasn't...? WTactualF. Grow up. Your shit is as bad, if not worse than hers. And to answer the question, until you figure out your own wayward thinking, no, I doubt there is any chance for this marriage.

Maybe consider radical honesty first (as you said, no more lies). As it stands it seems like you are both fighting manipulation with manipulation, trying to get the upper hand in a zero sum game. You two should be working together and setting an example for your children (your signature says you have 3, one of whom is an infant). But with as much action as both of you have had outside the relationship, it makes me wonder if you guys are cut out for monogamy at all. There are a few posters here that have entered into ethical non-monogamy, but that could be a path for you guys.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:34 PM, Wednesday, October 6th]

I feel bad for cheating on her. But I feel a lot worse that she cheated on me. IDK if that's a bad sign.

Well, that's normal. You write as if you expect your W to be different from you, as if you expect her to feel worse for her cheating than for yours.

You need to adjust your expectations.

I, too, think the best way to start is probably to be radically honest.

And I think you need to hear your W's rage, just as she needs to hear yours.

And I think you both need to figure out what you really want out of your M - and if you don't agree on what your M will be, you need to end it.

*****

ETA: I've just reviewed your first 6-8 threads/posts. In 2014 you stated you hadn't conducted any As. Is this the first time you've admitted your cheating on SI? BTW, when was your last infidelity?

Yeah, yeah, I know you qualify your cheating with something like 'depending on how you define it', but that's bullshit. That's a lie you tell yourself.

You can get support as a madhatter. No matter what support you get as a faithful BH, though, you're not going to take it in, because you know it's given on false pretenses. Lying on SI is like lying to your therapist. You're just not going to get the right help unless you're honest about your sitch.

Being dishonest hurt you more than it hurt anyone else.

You say the session with your C was a month ago. That - not your original d-day - may be the start of your healing.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:08 PM, Wednesday, October 6th]

Your WW cheated, it got rug swept but resentment and anger on your part was obviously there, then you decide to have three kids, relatively recently it sounds, with what sounds to me like a toxic partner.

Yes, I didn't really grasp the level of toxic until I entered therapy after my first was born, and after a few more years, really. Eventually my psychologist suggested that she sounded like a covert narcissist. It would make sense. I was raised by narcissists, so that used to seem normal to me, and makes sense that I would pick her. We got together as teenagers. Her family are also narcissistic, with two of her sisters candidates for NPD diagnosis, imo. I'm still on the fence about it. I'm not sure if I just don't want to believe she has such a toxic personality, because I want to believe she can change. Or if she just has narcissistic traits that doesn't rise to the level of personality disorder. I would say I have narcissistic traits that doesn't rise to the level of PD, but not as high as her. And I also was easily able to change those habits/thoughts in therapy. So maybe I am hopeful she is the same way, and will find shedding her toxicity to be relatively easy with some help from actual professionals. I'll leave the diagnostics to them.

We’re your A’s revenge A? What was your mindset during all of this wrt staying with ur cheating wife?

Most were "revenge". It was like from built up resentment from feeling squashed in my relationship. Like I was giving up everything for her to always get her way and never feeling really listened to. I think the first time I cheated was due to societal pressure. She was my first and I was thinking she was the one, but I was young and everyone was saying like you'll regret it if you don't sow your oats or whatever. So I was insecure, and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Then after that if slowly shifted towards resentment and less getting experience for a time or two. Then it was all about resentment.

you're faulting her for having big emotions.

Definitely not. I'm faulting her for how she's choosing to behave while having them. Yelling obscenities at my in front of our children. Getting in my face while I'm sitting down in a chair to the point where she's pushing me all the way off the chair, while holding our infant. Slamming my laptop on my hands. Not respecting that I say I am overwhelmed and need a break. Not taking accountability/minimizing/denying/blameshifting her actions afterwards and not apologizing. These are just examples of the type of stuff I mean when I say she rages at me. And I have not reciprocated. She said I need to stop raging, so I have. But she's a hypocrite who doesn't feel the need to hold herself to the same standards she expects of me. No one HAS to behave that way. She's allowing herself to.

She is the only one who can make these changes, so she will either put in the work....or she won't. But that part is out of your control.

I guess I made this post in the spirit of what if she doesn't make any meaningful changes? When do I know when to call it quits? It seems like I obviously have a problem with accepting the unacceptable and then later resenting it.

You mentioned that your wife is a liar and manipulator. How would you assess yourself? You lied to her face by omission every single day up until a month ago.

I am too. But if we're going to talk objectively about degrees, and leave the guilting me out of it, then she is a way bigger liar and manipulator than me. I'm not talking just As. She lies and manipulates constantly, maybe in every conversation to avoid shame or looking bad or just so people will think she's great. Definitely how a covert narcissist would. It's how she was raised, her family are the same. Her moral compass and ability to be vulnerable and take criticism is hugely out of whack. She'll gladly play the victim for sympathy. For example, she used to tell me she was always "talking me up" to other people and bragging about me when I wasn't around. But it always seemed like her people would subsequently dislike me more afterwards. Turns out, she admitted recently, that by "talking me up" she meant she would say something that makes her seem like a victim, and then argue with them as they told her I'm no good, and she would "talk me up" which really means making excuses for me in a way to garner maximum sympathy. Just an example of what I mean by liar and manipulator. There are countless ways she is that way, and it's definitely higher than the average person.

you both have to ask yourselves--"Do I really want to be in this marriage? Do I want to uphold the promises of marriage that I took on my wedding day, and commit fully to this woman/man?" If so, then what do the two of you have to lose by getting vulnerable and trying?

I really want to be married. But I don't want to be married to her as she is. I am willing to work on it and give it a real try, total honesty, vulnerability, the whole nine. I am hoping she will take this time to make some changes, or I am out the door. I can't force her to change. But how long should I wait? How will I know if changes are being made? How will I know if it's enough change?

And I think you both need to figure out what you really want out of your M - and if you don't agree on what your M will be, you need to end it.

I have figured out what I want. She needs to decide if she can give it to me. It depends on change from both of us. So that's sort of what my whole post was about: How do I know change will happen? How will I know it's enough? When is the time to decide it's not enough and to just call it all off? But I suppose those are the eternal questions that only I can answer. So looking for them here probably won't help much.

She is a narc? Sounds like you are.
You have accepted NO responsibility for your part or your cheating.

You sound like the type to live in the "grey" area of mortality. I'm sure your wife would probably say you rarely take responsibility or accountability.

Degrees of cheating? Degrees if mortality? That is FLAT OUT manipulation and you use it. so I have very little doubt you use it on her.

You are very holier than though about behavior in front of the kids...were you thinking of your children when you were cheating? Or when you were gaslighting and lying to their mother?

You will wrap yourself up in self righteousness, beat her with her choice to cheat, and make her responsible for YOUR choice to cheat.
You are the one posting...so I won't address your wife but you are NOT a good candidate for R right now.

A revenge affair is classified as an affair that occurs after discovery that your partner has cheated. Feeling squashed and fucking around is not a revenge affair, it's just a regular ol' affair. You're as guilty as she is, if not more so.

Are you for real? I have a hard time believing that anyone who's been in "intensive therapy" for five years would be this dense. Did you tell your counselor about your infidelities?

Prissy gave you excellent advice. Your view of love and marriage seems very objectified. The situation sounds toxic and damaging to all of you, particularly your kids. Are you still in IC? What do they think about all of this?

You and your wife both need a lot of independent work, I think. If she’s as horrible as you say, and you’ve done so much intense work, why would your healthy boundaries want you to stay married and expose you and your kids to this stuff? It doesn’t wash. And five years of self work but only a recent disclosure? I don’t see how a marriage is gonna grow here. I would really encourage you to explore amicable divorce and family counseling to support your kids. Own and work on your side.

I'd like to say that I'm surprised by some of the responses here but I'm not. Really? Screaming obscenities and aggressively confronting GG while holding an infant is totally normal BS rage stuff? Getting violent by slamming stuff on his hands? Regardless of what you think GG deserves, there's 3 innocent children being thrown into the middle of it by his MHW. THEY are innocent and GG needs to do everything and anything to either ensure this stops or he leaves and gives the children a calm, stable environment.

GG, clearly you have enabled and contributed to this environment until very recently. I'm sure it has worsened the situation. I'm sure you still need more IC to get closer to healthy partner regardless of whether your MHW is in the picture or not. But that change anything I am about to say and it doesn't mean you deserve everything that is happening to you. Unless maybe you have treated her the way she is treating you now for years and left that out of your posts. But even THAT doesn't change my advice to you. What you need to do right now though is to see a lawyer and get a better idea of what would happen during D. Then you can lay out what you will and will not tolerate from your MHW. If she physically assaults you, whether with her hands or an object like the laptop, the police will be called and one of you will stay somewhere else for the night. She MUST get into IC and the fighting in front of the kids must end. If it does not, you need to be willing to walk away for their sake. This is highly stressful and damaging to them. They aren't old enough to process or cope with what is happening the same way that an adult can. That means as scary and terrible as it is for you, it's even WORSE for them. They are learning unhealthy things about marriages and relationships from witnessing these fights. They are now more at risk for a laundry list of psychological conditions because this is happening. The fighting needs to stop immediately and if it doesn't, you need to leave to ensure that it does.

I'd like to say that I'm surprised by some of the responses here but I'm not. Really? Screaming obscenities and aggressively confronting GG while holding an infant is totally normal BS rage stuff?

To be fair, OP didn't tell us this until his second comment. I agree with you that it's inexcusable and it needs to stop. W's anger is understandable, but raging in front of her children is abusive and harmful, as is physical abuse towards OP. A boundary must be set and enforced.

GG, clearly you have enabled and contributed to this environment until very recently. I'm sure it has worsened the situation. I'm sure you still need more IC to get closer to healthy partner regardless of whether your MHW is in the picture or not. But that change anything I am about to say and it doesn't mean you deserve everything that is happening to you. Unless maybe you have treated her the way she is treating you now for years and left that out of your posts. But even THAT doesn't change my advice to you.

True, I have enabled and contributed. In fact, I used to rage at her in similar fashion, not the same way in front of the kids, though. I always knew I could control it, because I never did those extremely toxic rage things in front of the kids. Maybe slightly raised voices. She is always willing to take it to a more toxic place in front of them though. I guess that's why it's always been a sticky point for me. I always knew somewhere deep down that I was in control. But she loves using the "out of control, so not responsible for my actions" excuse. But I learned another way. I learned to recognize my own emotions, and to have the insight to take a break from talking if I'm getting too upset. Raging does not do what I think it will in the moment. It only damages things further. I have really taken that in, and learned. Even in the face of her raging, I can step back and say let's take a break instead of responding in kind. Getting in touch with my emotions has also shown me the damage her rages causes to me. I am upset about it for days afterwards, and literally can't connect or trust her enough to talk about anything of substance due to fear and past trauma. I literally dissociate and can't talk to her. I go into fight or flight for days when interacting with her. It's very unhealthy for any close relationship for me personally. So I realized I don't want to be with someone who rages. That's sort of what this whole post is about. Can she change? Will she change? How can I help her change? When will I know that it's not enough change?

What you need to do right now though is to see a lawyer and get a better idea of what would happen during D. Then you can lay out what you will and will not tolerate from your MHW.

We've both already seen lawyers separately. I read online that laying out that I won't accept being raged at can often backfire because what if she then rages anyway? Am I prepared to leave the M over one more rage? I don't think so. I understand that she is hurting, and I want to give her an opportunity to have me actually support her where she's at in stopping raging. Otherwise it's just not going to work. Idk if that's good or bad advice. As I said, I find people who rage at me to be people I can't get close with. At least for a while.

If she physically assaults you, whether with her hands or an object like the laptop, the police will be called and one of you will stay somewhere else for the night.

I'm not involving the police, acab. But she might respond to the staying somewhere else. The only place for me to stay is a hotel, where I'm sure she would be insecure about me doing, plus spending the money, plus what a nice break from waking up all night every night to crying infant. So that all is like a consequence for her rages that might help her change faster.

I am not missing your point about protecting the kids. I desperately want to protect them from this. Just getting D is not always the best solution though. I want to build a M I can be proud of with my kids. If that's not an option, then I want to be able to leave and feel like it was the right call and I gave it my very best try.

She is in IC, and I am as well. We are also doing MC.

I don’t understand why you and your wife are so concerned about your children’s well-being when it comes to getting divorced but neither of you gave their well-being a second thought when it came to cheating on each other multiple times.

I’m not minimizing the impact of divorce (as a child of a divorce myself) but you are doing your kids no favors by maintaining a marriage poisoned by degree of mistrust and resentment. It’s a toxic situation for everyone involved.

I think you and your wife need to take your kids completely out of the equation and try to determine whether you even like or respect each other enough to even consider reconciliation. From there, you need to determine what reconciliation means to you, because you might have different definitions for what that means.

Lastly, you both need to hold each other to the same standard of behavior. The fact that you harbor so much bitterness and resentment over her cheating and lying while doing the same exact thing yourself indicates to me that you don’t see your wife as your partner in the joint endeavor of marriage but as an entity that exists just to serve your needs and make you happy. Perhaps your wife has the same unhealthy view of you as well. Regardless, your marriage will only survive if you are aligned in what your expectations of and obligations are to each other and your marriage.

I see you only came to have your view point of your wife's behavior reinforced. And some posters are giving you that. And those are the only posters you seem to be responding to. However you need to be able accountable for what you did, you caused, your work, your destructive actions against your own children.

But I can see you aren't ready to do that yet. And that is highly narcissistic. You show up here only illustrating her bad behavior while minimizing or explaining yours away to an audience that has no investment other than to make yourself look and feel better about your own behavior. Classic narcissism.

GG,

Now that you have the real story are you going to expose the OM or confront them?

Also DNA the kids and STD testing?

The physical violence shouldn't be happening. Aside from that, do you think she doesn't have a right to rage? You admit you have "hounded her for years." All the while, you were keeping your many infidelities a secret from her. That's got to piss a person off.

Can she learn not to rage and be physical? Sure. You did. But it took you time,and it will her as well. She has a right to be enormously angry with you. She doesn't have the right to get physical.

I wish there was a like button because I would like the hell out of Prissy's comment. ETA: And HellFire's.

Now that you have the real story are you going to expose the OM or confront them?

Also DNA the kids and STD testing?

STD testing is a good idea, to make sure that GG didn't bring something home to his W from his multiple affairs over the last TWENTY YEARS. NVM that they do that during prenatal care, and the kids are all 4 and under.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 10:23 PM, Wednesday, October 6th]

STI testing is not routinely done if under the care of a midwife outside of the hospital/OB route, fwiw, in case that was Mrs. GuitarGod’s situation for prenatal care and childbirth. Some midwives do it as a matter of course, and certainly if he mother requests it, but not all. Mine asked me if I felt the need, but did not prescribe it.