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This0is0Fine posted 8/11/2020 22:43 PM

The only way you are getting to waived alimony is if she takes it completely uncontested or mediation. Once she has her own lawyer, you'll never be able to hold her to it.

Tigersrule77 posted 8/12/2020 06:27 AM

The only way you are getting to waived alimony is if she takes it completely uncontested or mediation. Once she has her own lawyer, you'll never be able to hold her to it.

Thumos cannot HOLD her to anything until the D is finalized and she waived alimony as part of the agreement. She can change her mind at any time until then.

TiF, i agree that if she hires an attorney, the attorney is likely going to push her to go after alimony. My XWW was told by her attorney to do so, she refused and we settled. Her attorney actually stopped representing her over it. So if Thumos' WW honors her statements, she will accept it, regardless of how she is advised, because very likely she is hearing the same thing from friends and family.

thatbpguy posted 8/12/2020 12:15 PM

I get a little concerned when one spouse is being "passive" when divorce is brought up and then just has the other one (the spouse working towards divorce) do all the lifting. The concern is that near the end they decide they need to fight (for various reasons) and then it gets blown up. Somewhat like showing your hand to someone in a poker game only to have it used against you. It's tricky waters, to be sure. I wish Thumos all the best.

Bigger posted 8/12/2020 12:41 PM

Thumos
I venture 80% of couples divorcing set off with the intent of it being amicable. I guess less than 10% make it. Itís a great goal to have and one to strive for, but chances are the only way you can make it amicable for her is by accepting all and every concession she asks for.

In order to get a divorce that is in your favor you really need to ensure itís completely legal.
Imagine this scenario:
You do your own settlement. She forgoes alimony, she accepts a payout from the family-home, she getís the Mazda and you keep the Ford.
Three months later you get an attorney letter pointing out that the settlement was made under duress, as can be clearly seen in the house being valued under market-value and that your pension / 401k wasnít valued in the total-assets pot. Her lack of representation can be seen to her advantage and your disadvantage.

The moment at least ONE person Ė like a mediator Ė handles the settlement you have (a) someone that knows each and every i that needs to be dotted and t that needs to be crossed and (b) the wording used to ensure complete transparency and (c) someone that can confirm participant acceptance.

Go read what WornDown suggested. IMHO its gold.

Thumos posted 8/12/2020 18:13 PM

Somewhat like showing your hand to someone in a poker game only to have it used against you. It's tricky waters, to be sure. I wish Thumos all the best.

Yeah, it is for sure. And I knew that before that I told her. I can't claim I didn't know what I might. be setting myself up for. I just don't know any other way to be than to be straightforward.

As far as her being passive, what I mean to say is that she's not going to set up appointments or help much with paperwork.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:15 PM, August 12th (Wednesday)]

Thumos posted 8/12/2020 18:15 PM

The moment at least ONE person Ė like a mediator Ė handles the settlement you have (a) someone that knows each and every i that needs to be dotted and t that needs to be crossed and (b) the wording used to ensure complete transparency and (c) someone that can confirm participant acceptance.

Go read what WornDown suggested. IMHO its gold.

Good perspective. A mediator would be cheaper than two attys doing warfare and more expensive than a third party, but probably worth it.

Buffer posted 8/12/2020 20:43 PM

Brother
Is she truly trying to get you not to D?
Or just paying you lip service to remain?
One day at a time
Buffer
Buffer

Thumos posted 8/12/2020 20:56 PM

Is she truly trying to get you not to D?
Or just paying you lip service to remain?

She doesnít want to D. itís not lip service. It doesnít matter. Iíve made my decision.

Today I booked a trip for myself we agreed is a shared expense and documented as such. I will be staying by myself at a small cabin out in the desert to hike, read and take photos.

Iím moving forward with my to do list which goes a little slower than I want when I have to spend all day on zoom calls for work.

WornDown posted 8/13/2020 12:49 PM

A mediator would be cheaper than two attys doing warfare and more expensive than a third party

Why do you think having attorneys automatically means warfare?

It's a misconception that a lot of people have, but most attorneys want to stay out of court as much as possible.

The ONLY time a divorce becomes a war is when one party wants it to be. If both don't, it won't, regardless of whether you both have attorneys.

Your attorney can't file motions/drag things out unless YOU want them to.

If you think (and I don't think you do) that you can "trick" your spouse into an agreement by avoiding attorneys...you'll end up paying more in the end as Bigger was pointing out. Having attorneys for both parties makes someone coming back and claiming they were scammed that much harder.

Thumos posted 8/14/2020 12:13 PM

I am telling my son this weekend about the affair after he asked me two weeks ago to level with him about why and his friend can't have play dates.

I have waited bc this was his first week of a new school (which went great and has already given him access to a new friends group). He was feeling anxiety about going to the new schoo, but now that has dissipated almost immediately with a great teacher and very welcome in group of kids.

I didn't want to cause him undue anxiety before that. I scripted out what to say to him already and thinking about it, I will need to tell OBS (other betrayed spouse) because it would be unfair to not let her know. So here's what I scripted to reach out to her.

Just wanted to see about reactions here to my script and any downstream effects I'm not thinking about:

[_________ I wanted to let you know we have leveled with (my son) about the affair, and I felt it would be unfair for you not to know about this. I have felt badly about not reaching out to you with the information I had right away back in December of 2016. (Of course never having been cheated on, I didn't have a grid for handling any of this). In any case, I hope I'm handling it the right way now: (my son) asked recently in a very adult manner why he and ________ could not have play dates. He wanted me to level with him, and I felt I would be disrespecting his maturity and autonomy by not being honest with him as a boy turning into a man. Earlier I felt it wouldn't have been age appropriate. So now he has been told that OM and my WW had an inappropriate relationship, that both of them broke the rules of monogamous marriage, and that both of them violated trust. I told him that it causes me a great deal of pain to be in the presence of someone like OM who was a friend and violated the trust of a friend so casually -- and that you felt the same way about (my WW) -- and that play dates and the like simply were not realistic considering that. I also told him we don't want to interfere in his friendship with ______ in any other way, that _________ is a great kid and they should feel free to remain friends as long as the two of them wish. Finally, I told him this wasn't his problem, or _________'s problem, and not something either of them can fix or should worry about. That's all -- just wanted you to know.

KingofNothing posted 8/14/2020 14:52 PM

I would be very interested in how she responds to that. She didn't appear to be too invested in the affair in your earlier posts. Beyond getting her a new home, I guess. She was the AP in the previous affair that broke up the POSOM's previous marriage, if I'm recalling correctly? Do you think she might take your comment about "never being cheated upon" as some slight? (Just a style point).

Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely the right thing to do. I just would be interested in what tortured logic she's using these days.

I'm assuming your STBX is aware of this as well, and supports this action. Does that mean, A) the boys will get together to hang out somehow in a "safe" environment (however you can define that) or B) it's still off the table, forever.

I think (not sure) you have told your son about divorcing. You can pretty much rely on the fact that your son will not keep that to himself with his friend, no matter how well intentioned he is.
So, eventually, the POSOM will know you are divorcing. I doubt he cares much, but how does that make you feel?

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 2:58 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/14/2020 15:11 PM

I would be very interested in how she responds to that. She didn't appear to be too invested in the affair in your earlier posts. Beyond getting her a new home, I guess. She was the AP in the previous affair that broke up the POSOM's previous marriage, if I'm recalling correctly? Do you think she might take your comment about "never being cheated upon" as some slight? (Just a style point).

This is exactly why I ask for insight here. Very good points.

I haven't told my WW that I will be reaching out to OBS. She is on board with the script for telling my son, but we haven't discussed me telling OBS yet. I'll be telling her that this weekend. However, I already did lead up to it by saying "we'll need to be prepared for downstream effects of this and other questions that may arise." And she agrees.

A couple of clarifications:

1. OBS did have affair with OM before marrying him. It was an exit affair with her previous husband in favor of OM, not the other way around. Basically a classic hypergamous move for the OM's family money. Essentially the OM has a habit of going after other husband's wives. I imagine it's some kind of sick conquest game for him -- although not a very fair fight if it's being done behind your back, right?

2. OBS hasn't been that interested in talking, but also remember it took me a full year to reach out to her, so she could justifiably be a little pissed at me. I just don't know. She wouldn't even confirm or deny for me whether the outlines of what I knew were true. On the one hand, this could be interpreted as I have the truth, because wouldn't she jump on the opportunity to correct me? On the other hand, perhaps she knows more but would like me to swing in the wind. Who knows? Who cares at this point?

3. Boys were going to school together - that was the "safe" place for them to play. But now they attend different schools. They also zoom call each other and have played fortnite with other boys during the pandemic. Frankly, fortnite has weirdly been a godsend for keeping kids in contact with each other.

4. I can't ever see a situation at least that I would be comfortable with where play dates get arranged.

5. We have not told son about divorcing. Nor have we told older daughter. I have A LOT to do to get the process going and I'm kind of overwhelmed by the to-do list I've come up with, frankly.

6. I'm not going to spring divorce on my son as he's starting a brand new school and while my daughter is just about to start college.

7. However, my thought is that a convo like this with my son about why his friend can't have play dates is actually a good prelude that introduces my son to some of the things his mom and dad are working through -- that way divorce isn't a complete shock when we tell him later this year or early next year (depending on how quickly this can all be worked out).

8. My other thought has been: We've transitioned him to a new school, and a new group has become available to him immediately. He's very excited about his new school, new teacher and new classmates. So it could be that this friendship could dissipate naturally bc the entire original friends group has been scattered by the pandemic bc of parents making other arrangements outside of the school they were attending.

That would make things a lot easier overall, so I hope it does.

So my son doesn't know we're getting divorced yet. He will but I want to lead him up to it rather than springing it on him one fine day.

As far as OM finding out about the divorce, I don't care. I really don't. I'm done. I want my freedom. And I want out of limbo. As quickly as I can arrange it I'll be moving to a nearby community. With my son in a new school, the likelihood of crossing paths with OM is all but nil.

As far as fears about OM and my WW reigniting, I find that highly unlikely. But what if it happens? Well, then they're made for each other, aren't they? And I can't imagine it would be a successful long-term relationship in any case.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:14 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

HalfTime2017 posted 8/14/2020 15:20 PM

Thumos, I don't see how you owe the OBS anything. Seeing as she is also a WW, who glommed onto some money, I doubt she feels the same way you do, or traditionally would with another OBS going thru the same thing for the first time.

You owe your son the explanation, but the OBS, I'd say meh. Your son has found new friends, and hopefully in time, that other friendship dissipates so that it will no longer remind either of you of the OM, and the destruction brought on by him. You never know, your son may even be upset with the OM once he finds out that Dad and Mom are divorcing b/c of them. Maybe talk to your son, and see what he says before reaching out to the OBS.

18yrs2kids posted 8/14/2020 16:13 PM

Thumos, I'm new here but wanted to say I'm also all for collaborative law and mediated divorce, in part for the economics of it but also to minimize harmful impact on kids. A great book is Divorce for Grownups by David Magnuson who is a divorced dad and also a mediator himself. The subtitle of his book is A Comprehensive Guide to Divorce in California but it's great information regardless of which state you're in. We're a California family but have been living abroad the past 4 yrs, and I still got a ton of good info from this book.

Even though my experience as a BS has been very compact time-wise, I had a lot of time for therapy, reflection and research thru Covid lockdown and made the decision to D early on. We opted to Nest, or Birdnest where the kids stay at home with the dog, and either me or WH. we share a studio apartment and are never in the same place at the same time which is awesome. Also a great resource for telling the kids is Rosalind Sedakka Child Centered Divorce titles, on her website you can download her thing about How to Tell the Kids. All the stuff you've been saying and doing strike me as being totally Child-Focused and collaborative.

Me: BW
Him WH
2 kids: DD13 DD13
Married Oct 2005, DD Mar 2020

[This message edited by 18yrs2kids at 4:15 PM, August 14th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/14/2020 16:23 PM

I have thought about nesting but what relationships with other people? I donít want to be tied down after I divorce. I would like to move on.

Justsomeguy posted 8/14/2020 19:34 PM

Thumos, I did the nesting thing for a year. PM me if you want some insight.

longsadstory1952 posted 8/15/2020 15:00 PM

There is nothing wrong with scripting your talk with your son. The thing is, once you go down the road, the questions will be endless and will keep coming as he confronts your wife, the om ,the obs, the friend, talks to other friends etc. you gotta know this will happen.

Since you are not going to separate any time soon, this will be a scab that will be picked at. All that is going to happen is that you will have more stress in your life. If history is any indication you wife will be very passive and evasive, and will probably push the questions back to you.

So, you sure you want to do this now? It has to come but with no exit plan you are in for a long bout of misery.

Also, you are going to really fuel your rage at your genius wife. After all, what exactly in the hell did she think was going to happen someday?

Your son is going to be hurting and will be very confused. Expect him to act out. As for obs, rather than your script, maybe a text. My son knows should do it. No need to explain yourself. Just saying.

Your wife was planning on a birthday vacation. Maybe you could leave her home and just take him.

And finally, I am so glad for you that you are leaving the shit show. At least you wonít have to go thru the charade of renewing you vows. You must have wanted to drop kick her across the county when she came up with that ball breaking idea.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 3:05 PM, August 15th (Saturday)]

Hawke posted 8/15/2020 18:04 PM

Hi, Thumos. Sorry that your wife wasn't willing to do the work required for reconciliation, but I'm sure it is a relief to you to be moving on.

My ex and I managed an amicable split, and I'm very glad we did. We've had a couple of hiccups since then, but have maintained civility and largely communicate about the kids via text and email. For example, he sent me an email last week that pissed me off because he was suggesting a schooling option for the kids that would clearly not be possible with my work schedule (and frankly, I didn't think was the best choice for the kids). So, I got back to him letting him know firmly but civilly that I disagreed and my reasons. However, when my nanny called me today to let me know she was getting tested for COVID, I asked him if he could keep the kids until we knew the result and he easily agreed. So the benefits of being amicable and not having to resort to the letter of your agreement constantly is helpful if it's possible.

My kids were quite young when we split up, but I think the general advice I read was sound. Don't bring up the divorce until you can answer their questions about how it will affect them - where will they live; what about their stuff; will they still be able to play basketball/trumpet/whatever extracurricular means a lot to them. Your child in college might wonder whether you can or will still financially support him (if you are providing any financial support) and whether he can still come home for the summer.

My ex didn't precisely resist our separation (we weren't married, so didn't need to divorce), but did as little as possible to move it along. I actually wrote out his financial disclosure and sent it to him, so that he could send it to his lawyer, who provided it to my lawyer who forwarded it on to me. Silly, but necessary to fulfill the legal requirements.

We each retained our own family lawyers, each of whom had experience with both collaborative divorce and high conflict ones and each lawyer vouched for the other as being reasonable to deal with. A mediator cannot advise either party and can only provide legal information, so crucial things can be missed. I was also worried that the agreement could be overturned more easily if my ex didn't have independent legal advice, since I'm a lawyer (corporate/commercial, not family).

We did not choose "collaborative divorce" because where I live that is a specific arrangement where the parties agree that if they can't settle out of court, the lawyers could no longer represent them and they would have to start from scratch. After we had each had a chance to get legal advice, we hammered out the basics of custody, division of assets and support over lunch and let our lawyers know our decisions. My lawyer drafted the first cut of the separation agreement, it went back and forth a couple of times largely cleaning up or clarifying things, and then we signed.

My lawyer had advised me that I would be paying child and spousal support, what the range would look like and the different options (paying a lump sum vs. over time (these have different tax implications, too). I chose to pay a little more spousal support, but with the agreement that spousal support could not be revisited due to any change of circumstances, and I'm glad I went that route. The quantum of child support is pretty much dictated by the government, so not much leeway there.

Anna123 posted 8/15/2020 18:11 PM

There is nothing wrong with scripting your talk with your son. The thing is, once you go down the road, the questions will be endless and will keep coming as he confronts your wife, the om ,the obs, the friend, talks to other friends etc. you gotta know this will happen.

This is not the norm as long as the BS doesn't bad mouth the cheater or look for an us vs them with the child. Depending on the relationship of the BS and the child, to secretly hide such a major fact as to why his parents are divorcing has the potential to be far more damaging. In my case, my son trusted me to always be honest with him. I remember the time when I was still hiding it and it was just awful. Talk about questions, there were hundreds. After I clearly told him the reasons for the divorce, there was nothing more to question. I supported his relationship with dad, and time moved on in honesty and clarity.

Thumos: My lawyer was a pretty even keeled person but he adametly kept reminding me to never tell cheater what I will settle for. That becomes the starting point for them and he rarely could get them to budge after they had a number in their head. I hope this continues to go smoothly for you, that would be wonderful and well deserved.

Unsure2019 posted 8/17/2020 19:05 PM

Thumos,

Iím glad youíve finally made a decision to get yourself out of limbo. I had some time this weekend and went back and read the first few pages of your initial post/thread from a year ago. God, the pain you were in just exploded off the pages, and it had been that way for three years. From what you described, your felt this huge relief after telling your WW that you wanted to D. If you ever question it, just go back and read those first few pages.

Finally, I think I remember you saying that WW was reading your posts. If so, it just baffles me that the pain your described couldnít move her much at all. Just an amazing lack of empathy for some one who says she really ants to R.

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