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Idiotmcstupid posted 8/5/2020 19:01 PM

What is keeping you stuck, TheThunderRolls?

For me it was primarily that I had talked myself into a narrative of fear about what would happen to my children. Ultimately I realized that I've been a zombie the past three years and I'll be a better dad half the time than a semi-checked out dad all the time.

I also realized that I was settling (I think this is true most of the time after a devastating D-Day) and had not been honest with myself about it.

With the heart scare and the lockdowns, I put things on hold. But this summer I really began reflecting again and realized that I just wasn't with someone who had true remorse about this.

I'm not saying I hate her or loathe her, just that she doesn't have it in her. If she had what it takes it wouldn't have taken me three years to get a written timeline, STD test and failed polygraph from her.

The circumstances of her affair were quite toxic and compound in nature (gaslighting, separating from me, sex in the home, sex after confrontation, double betrayal, involving our children etc) but then that was ramified with three years of blameshifting, "fog," DARVO, foot dragging, minimization, etc.

It took me awhile to realize that she just wasn't willing to do the heavy lifting required for a true reconciliation (which I now believe is a truly rare event in any case).

To be clear, I don't regret staying. I probably would have been better off all things considered if I'd walked away right after D-Day but I'm not sure my kids would have been better off. That's just part of the shit sandwich. I came to a place where my disgust with trying to choke down the shit sandwich outweighed my fear.

If you're saying you'll be where I am a year from now, then you're already laying down "predictive programming" in your brain and you're already there!

So what is holding you back? Most of the time it is fear. [quote/]

Thumos, you are much in the same place as me, but you have been able to let go of the hate.
I wish I could. I am starting to. But I have a ways to go.
I did realize that my WW was not the person that could "do the heavy lifting" quite a while ago. But I just couldn't pull the trigger, d/t fear about the kid and my own codependency.
I salute you for making the right choice before you had to experience another dday.
I know I'll never lie down on those particular train tracks again myself. At least I can say I tried.

[This message edited by Idiotmcstupid at 7:09 PM, August 5th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

Idiotmcstupid posted 8/5/2020 19:05 PM

Ok, what am I not getting about the quote function? That is very frustrating

Buster123 posted 8/5/2020 19:21 PM

Congrats on getting out of limbo, I'm just curious, how did she take the news ? was she expecting it ? relieved ? what was/has been her demeanor ?

My desire is an amicable 50/50 custody of our son with a clean split of assets down the middle, but I would like for her to waive as much child support and spousal support as possible.

You can certainly try it but don't expect it, of course ask your attorney how much you would have to pay if any, then go from there, again hope for the best for expect the worst just in case.

I think it's the least she owes me and I would take having to pay her as another level of betrayal.

Hopefully she complies, however don't be surprised if what SHE thinks she owes you is completely different, remember cheaters are SELFISH by nature, she also owed you fidelity which I'm sure was/is more important to you, yes this is the SAME person who committed the ultimate and most hurtful betrayal to you.

I feel that even though you probably waited more than you should to make the final decision, in your case I think it still will help you not to have second thoughts and/or dwell on the "what ifs" had you left immediately after D day (correct me if I"m wrong).

I know you've been reading a lot here and now on TAM, and I'm sure you've come across a few times with the "I want to try to R so that eventually if it doesn't work I at least know I tried" from other BSs and that their reason is similar to yours (kids, finances, fear of the unknown, etc.), you did it your way and the way you felt "comfortable" in an effort to reduce the impact on you and your children.

Thumos posted 8/5/2020 23:50 PM

I feel that even though you probably waited more than you should to make the final decision, in your case I think it still will help you not to have second thoughts and/or dwell on the "what ifs" had you left immediately after D day (correct me if I"m wrong).

I definitely would have liked to have more information to make a decision. Ultimately I concluded I had enough. One could wait around for that extra piece off filler information, but why?

As far as what ifís and regrets I have had more than a few. I think it would be impossible to be caught up in an infidelity and betrayal situation without having some level of self recrimination (which is one reason detachment from the source of betrayal is probably the healthiest route).

Iíve found that for whatever reason those have dissipated steadily the past few weeks as Iíve arrived at a decision to D.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:51 PM, August 5th (Wednesday)]

Thumos posted 8/5/2020 23:57 PM

Thumos, you are much in the same place as me, but you have been able to let go of the hate.
I wish I could. I am starting to. But I have a ways to go.
I did realize that my WW was not the person that could "do the heavy lifting" quite a while ago. But I just couldn't pull the trigger, d/t fear about the kid and my own codependency.
I salute you for making the right choice before you had to experience another dday.
I know I'll never lie down on those particular train tracks again myself. At least I can say I tried.

In my view it is much easier to let go of feelings of hate, resentment and anger if you detach. Much easier to forgive too. Just my experience so far.

Iíve been saying for awhile to other folks ďyou are not obligated to shackle yourself to the source of your pain.Ē It took a bit for that piece of advice to sink into my own heart and mind.

Think about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:59 AM, August 7th (Friday)]

Tigersrule77 posted 8/6/2020 07:41 AM

Thumos, in response to your original question, I don't know of any checklists, but if you check out your state's website, they will likely have a section that explains the D laws briefly and any paperwork you have to file.

My D with XWW was fairly amicable, but I still hired an attorney because I wanted them to review everything and make sure I did it right. And to make sure I didn't screw myself. I would recommend you do the same. My attorney didn't push me to be aggressive, he understood the situation and acted as a resource when needed. That sounds like the type you are looking for.

I would recommend that you write up a proposal of what you would like to offer to STBXWW and present it to her. If she says she is willing to accept it, then you are in good shape. If not, you may need a mediator, but most areas have free resources for mediation, if needed.

I agree with some of the other posters, if you haven't separated finances yet, do that right away. You can let her know that so she doesn't act surprised and she has no reason to be angry about it. I didn't hide anything I was doing from my XWW.

Just a heads up, in my state (MD) my XWW waived alimony and that cannot be rescinded. However, child support can always be changed, so even if your WW agrees to something on that now, she can always ask the court to change it. So if you receive a huge raise, no need to tell everyone about it. Just a suggestion.

Unsure2019 posted 8/6/2020 12:35 PM

Thumos,

I know this has been a long, painful journey for you and I glad that you are finally resolved on how you want to move forward. Iím happy that you finally have some degree of peace.

I have to say that a part of me was hoping that when you finally told your WW that you wanted a D, that she would come clean, answer your lingering questions honestly and commit to doing everything humanly possible to keep you and your M. Iím disappointed that she couldnít see a way forward to do that.

Also, Iím not sure how old your DS is, but I think he should know exactly why his friend is not welcome and what your WW did to cause this. Be careful if you let her control the narrative on this one.

Finally, you might want to let everyone know that youíve moved to the D forum. I donít always check here, and just stumbled on your move.

Thumos posted 8/6/2020 18:19 PM

Unsure, I just put up an update in my thread in Reconcilation to let everyone know I'm transitioning over here.

Also, Iím not sure how old your DS is, but I think he should know exactly why his friend is not welcome and what your WW did to cause this. Be careful if you let her control the narrative on this one.

First, I wouldn't say my son's friend is not welcome, but it just can't happen. The OBS would certainly not want her son at my house and I would never want my son at their house. It's untenable. Both the OBS and I have talked about how sad we are about this aspect of our respective spouse's betrayal.

This poor kid -- the OM's son -- did nothing wrong, he's a good kid and I hate that his dad's decisions and my WW's decisions affected them both. But that's the way it is.

I have suggested to my WW a united front in answering my son's question and have scripted out a few options. She told me tonight she likes both options for how to talk to him.

Here's basically the script I came up with:

"We made a decision a couple of years ago that unfortunately you can't have play dates with ___ . We know that's confusing and we feel bad that it's confusing. That's our decision and we don't want to be mysterious about it, but it isn't going to change. So we need to talk about it now, and then we're not going to continue to talk about it over and over. If you have questions that might pop into your head about all of this, you should ask them and we'll do our best to answer. We want you to be able to be friends with ___. so nothing should change about that as long as you want to be friends. The reason ____ can't come over is ____'s dad and your mom had a relationship that broke the rules of the marriage between mom and me. It hurt me and also hurt ___ 's mom. When I see _____'s dad it causes me pain, because he broke my trust. When ____'s mom sees your mom, it hurts her because your mom broke her trust too. It's like having a friend who really broke your heart. You wouldn't want to see that person over and over. This has nothing to do with you, nothing to do with ____ and the two of you did nothing wrong. But it's just the way things are. This is not your fault, it's not your problem, and it's not your problem to fix. You should continue to be friends with ____. But play dates are not something that can happen."

ISurvivedSoFar posted 8/6/2020 18:37 PM

I'd caution you to be very careful about your assets and her behavior as this gets real. The more threatened she feels the more she may do things that are not in favor of amicable separation and divorce.

Even though I am not divorced, I will say getting the post nup and the split of assets to favor me didn't go well at first. My WS felt threatened and survival mode took over and he couldn't see past the fear of being alone and destitute. We eventually worked it out but it wasn't easy. With "d" looming she may have a similar reaction.

I think you need to separate out finances right away to protect yourself. In our case I got the bulk of the proceeds from the sale of our home and I got all of my retirement which is exponentially greater than his. So you'll have to evaluate your situation and the laws in your state to determine what is right for you.

Have you determined what you want and what you'll be willing to negotiate?

Congrats on making this decision. It must be wonderful to feel so relieved.

Thumos posted 8/6/2020 18:46 PM

I'd caution you to be very careful about your assets and her behavior as this gets real. The more threatened she feels the more she may do things that are not in favor of amicable separation and divorce.

I know. I'm trying to be careful. I think dividing up finances now may be wise, but I also don't want to create an antagonistic atmosphere.

I'm hoping to set up a family law appt with both of us soon so we can discuss.

My goal is to get 50/50 custody on our one younger child, no alimony from me, and an even division of assets. I will probably have to pay some level of child support bc of the way our state law is structure, but I believe she can waive alimony and also waive to a lesser amount of child support if possible.

That's what I'm looking for. I don't desire to keep the house at all. It's where the affair happened. She cant afford the house on her own so it will need to be sold.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:58 AM, August 7th (Friday)]

ISurvivedSoFar posted 8/6/2020 21:10 PM

Do you want more than 50/50 division of assets?

WRT child support, often the judgement relates to keeping the child to the same standard of living before the divorce.

Like I said the more real it gets the more she's going to have a reaction. She's already shown she will run to her mother for protection when she perceives a threat.

Stay strong and go see that lawyer!!!

betrayedafter20 posted 8/6/2020 21:32 PM

I have suggested to my WW a united front in answering my son's question and have scripted out a few options. She told me tonight she likes both options for how to talk to him

Thumos I have not closely followed your story and I 100% support your idea of a script and I think this is excellent

I too provided a script for WH an I to present the kids for the separation announcement - I posted it on SI for feedback and received excellent insights, I hope others respond to this besides me

I believe that how we word things can make so much difference

I hear no hate, anger or inappropriate bias in your script

It is stating the facts so no sugar coating yet being sensitive to the kids

Not a psychologist but you totally have my vote

I love that you are putting the kids #1 on priority <3

Edited to add, and paraphrased from my faith-based IC:
I am a believer and forgave, forgave, forgave.

Rest in knowing that your stay in attempted R is validated. Rest in knowing that you exhausted all possibilities - that your conscience is clear, you did everything you could. NOW you have permission to take care of yourself 100% and it is the will (of ???) in my case, God, or whatever your beliefs are.

[This message edited by betrayedafter20 at 9:47 PM, August 6th (Thursday)]

crazyinlove1995 posted 8/6/2020 21:53 PM

Hey man.I dont have time to post.Sorry your here in this forum.I hope you can finally get some peace within Yourself
YOU have taken a huge step for yourself It sucks its hard,but you've got this.
Peace

Mrhealed posted 8/7/2020 02:12 AM

Thumos,

Are you un Contact with OBS?

I think would be a good idea to inform OBS that you are getting D. This way she can keep her eyes open in case your WW decides to try to be friend with OM again. I may be mistaken but I got the impression from your other thread that your WW thought that her A was not a Big real (from her comments I assumed she believes It) and that you all, including OM and OBS, could have a civil relation for your kids... Sorry if I got It wrong.

In addition, informing your DS about the A Will affect OBS as probably your DS Will tell the other kid.

OBS has not a say about what you do, but the above actions would be a nice gesture

TwoDozen posted 8/7/2020 03:38 AM

Thumos

I donít post often and havnt yet posted my full story but I have followed yours and Iím sorry for you and your DS that is has come to this.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that my WGFs A is a deal breaker for me and there maybe nothing she could do to change that, but like you am stuck in a perpetual should I / shouldnít I dilemma .

So I will keep following and hopefully take some strength from your actions to do what I feel more and more each day is the only option to remove us both from pain that I fear will stay with us indefinitely if we stay together.

Best of luck brother 👊🏻

Butforthegrace posted 8/7/2020 05:54 AM

As to messaging to your son, keep in mind that you and your WW will both be co-parents for another 10 years or so, and his best outcome happens if he feels warm, loving relationships with both of you. Further, your WW will be in your life for those 10 years, maybe more.

It's likely your son has already heard things from your older daughter. But I think it is a bad outcome if he is angry or resentful toward his mother. For his sake, I would suggest your communication to him focus on her being a good mother to him.

That said, there will almost certain come a day, when those boys are adolescents, where they will realize that his father, and your son's mother, had sex with each other. Will they find that a mutually embarrassing fact? Will one of them gloat about it? Will they fight? Or cease being friends?

If there is anything to prepare him for (and to prepare you and your WW for), it's facing that day when: "Dude, my mom fucked your dad" is stated out loud between them.


[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:58 AM, August 7th (Friday)]

Tigersrule77 posted 8/7/2020 07:01 AM

Thumos, you should confirm with your attorney, but your STBXWW can agree to whatever child support amount you want. The only reason it would become a legal problem is if SHE chose to make it one. Meaning, you two could settle now on $500/month. However, at any time, either party can ask the court to review and adjust. For example, if your WW received a big promotion at work and a big raise, you could ask the court to lower the CS based on her new salary. Or she could say that she is struggling to pay bills based on what she agreed to and needs you to pay the amount based on the state formulas.

The court will only act if prompted by one of the parties involved. In the same way, if you DON'T pay the agreed to amount, the court will only act if she reports. The exception to that is some states have you pay the court directly and the state then transfers the money to the other parent.

JanaGreen posted 8/7/2020 07:27 AM

Tigers, in my state that isn't the case. Child support is determined via a calculator tool that accounts for income and time with the children. You can agree to pay more than the calculated amount, but not less.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 7:27 AM, August 7th (Friday)]

Butforthegrace posted 8/7/2020 09:31 AM

Child support is determined via a calculator tool that accounts for income and time with the children. You can agree to pay more than the calculated amount, but not less.

That's the rule in most states. There is a uniform family law act that most states have adopted in some form.

Further, child support is always subject to adjustment as life circumstances change.

Thumos posted 8/7/2020 11:01 AM

Do you want more than 50/50 division of assets?

If I end up having to pay child support, which seems likely given my state's laws, then I will be pushing for a 60/40 division of assets or something like that -- as well an agreement by her to waive spousal support/alimony.

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