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My story part one

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KingRat posted 11/8/2019 11:34 AM

There are plenty of other ways people feel soul crushing hurt, pain, and betrayal besides being cheated on.
What if one spouse is abused?
What if one spouse has an addiction?
What if one spouse is raped?
Do any of those circumstances justify cheating? Or is it JUST your spouse cheating on you that justifies it?

No. We've abandoned logic on page 1. At this point, it's just about justifying your choices.

Newlifeisgreat posted 11/8/2019 11:36 AM

JUST your spouse cheating justifies it.


If the spouse is abused, attacked, raped, that is NOT the cheating spouses fault!! Would it be their fault if they were diagnosed with a serious/deadly disease? Of course not!

But willingly have sex with someone that is NOT their spouse IS their fault!

They opened your marriage. They just forgot to inform you of it, and whatever the betrayed spouse has to do to heal from the betrayal is fine by me

[This message edited by Newlifeisgreat at 11:40 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls posted 11/8/2019 11:54 AM

I see that reference a lot—“willingly opened the marriage, just without telling the BS.” So then the BS has a revenge A, justified as just exercising their rights in the now-open marriage. I follow so far.

Where I get lost is, if the marriage is open all around now, then the original WS can keep fucking their AP, right? Or find a new one? No? Why not? The marriage is open both ways now, right?

Zugzwang posted 11/8/2019 12:25 PM

JUST your spouse cheating justifies it.

Then I guess being abused by your parent justifies abusing other people too? Being raped justifies raping others? What if the BS was a mean son-a-bitch? Would that justify them getting cheated on? I mean after all the BS deserved it since they were a mean son-a-bitch. It was justified. They started the abuse. A child being bullied justify shooting people?

Your spouse cheating justifies divorcing because you respect yourself enough to say, fuck it I deserve more.

Wouldn't choosing to cheat and stoop to that level just make you self destructive and hurting yourself? Yeah OP can consider R now that he has reclaimed his pride, at what cost though? Now he feels like shit too from guilt on top of being betrayed. Sounds like it was justified to me. The act of cheating is no longer considered wrong or bad if it is done in the name of revenge? Just being done in the name or revenge just jumps a level in a mean vindictive spirited way. I can't imagine that sitting well with a healthy good adult.

If you choose to cheat in response to being cheated on, you had issues already going on before the spouse cheated on you. Being cheated on might of been the icing on the cupcake that sent you over the edge.

HeartBreaker11 posted 11/8/2019 12:29 PM

If the spouse is abused, attacked, raped, that is NOT the cheating spouses fault!! Would it be their fault if they were diagnosed with a serious/deadly disease? Of course not!

But willingly have sex with someone that is NOT their spouse IS their fault!

So if someone is married and their spouse is abusive, then that IS THEIR SPOUSE'S FAULT and cheating would be justified then?

If someone is married and their spouse is an addict, then that IS THEIR SPOUSE'S FAULT and cheating would be justified then?

As long as one spouse has done something that is their fault, cheating is justified?

They opened your marriage. They just forgot to inform you of it, and whatever the betrayed spouse has to do to heal from the betrayal is fine by me

If the marriage is open, why does the BS insist on NC with the AP?

Would it be fine for WS to find a new person to have a relationship with?

What about if the WS has an EA? Does the BS get to have an EA too in order to heal, or if there an EA to PA ratio that the BS should adhere to?

If the WS had an only PA, does the BS get to only have a PA too, or can they have an EA/PA?

What if the WS had multiple A? Does the BS get to sleep with the same number of partners and have the same number of RA, or is it a one shot deal?

Is there a time limit? What if BS decides they want to invoke their free pass RA a year after DDay? What about 3 years after? 10 years after? At what point does it go from a RA to just an A?

What if a BS is enraged and starts physically assaulting their WS? It helps them heal and feel more in control of the relationship. Is that okay? Whatever the BS needs to to to heal, is on the table, right?

Newlifeisgreat posted 11/8/2019 18:08 PM

We are moving into the realm of the crazy now, and I apologize if it is partially my fault.

But to answer A question that popped up that many others than shot off of....

If someone is hitting you (abuse), is the victim then justified in hitting the next person that walks by them on the street? Absolutely not. But while the person is hitting them, the victim have the right to hit the attacker back? Absolutely!!

When I discovered my ex was cheating, I gave the question of offering her the option of reconciliation all the time necessary to make my decision, and in less than a blink of an eye, the answer came back “when he’ll freezes over”. But I did not start a relationship until my divorce was finalized. And although she nullified the marriage vows, I did not believe I was in a good enough place to start dating until after the process was done.

But I stand by my previous statement. Whatever the victim needs to do to help heal themselves from their spouse’s betray is fine by me. Please do not interpret that to mean that I approve of physical violence.

I do not believe that those that cheat have a 1/10 of idea of the pain and devastation they cause they one they vowed to love, honor, and cherish.

It really comes down to a simple statement, if you are married and you want to have sex with someone that is not your spouse, the first step, long before the panties hit the floor, is to file for divorce. If your spouse cheats on you, do whatever you need to do to heal yourself, and if that means that the best way to get over someone is to get under someone, so be it.

(Last statement was meant to lighten up the discussion a bit)

To those that have been are are being cheated on, I wish you nothing but the best. Remember you are stronger than you think! You will get out of this Hell that your spouse has thrown you into, and I promise that things are A LOT better on the other side, at least it was for me. Don’t let fear paralyze you from doing what you believe you should do, no matter what it is.

Good luck to all

JBWD posted 11/8/2019 18:09 PM

Assigning fault is entirely beside the point. If Buzzy and his wife want to R someone’s going to need to extend some grace and acknowledge that the universe isn’t keeping score.

And as has been touched on, Buzzy undertook this RA MORE for revenge than your average MH here, and the WSs (remember we’re in the “Wayward Side”) recognize that as a selfish motivation. As is the lopsided demand for NC from his WW but not from him (Great call switching that up, Buzzy!)

Point is every cheater on this site believed that they were getting something unique and special from another person- And very few of them persisted in their belief that another could make them whole.

We can continue to circle back and forth on how cheaters can’t possibly understand the depth of pain, but we have unique insights as well, and most of those insights are in ways humans fool themselves into placing their well-being in the hands of others. So please don’t think anyone’s casting stones, we’re simply ID’ing destructive behaviors that resonate with how we understand our previous justifications.

HeartBreaker11 posted 11/8/2019 18:53 PM

I do not believe that those that cheat have a 1/10 of idea of the pain and devastation they cause they one they vowed to love, honor, and cherish.

You're making a lot of assumptions and blanket statements about WS here.

Myself for an example.
I was engaged prior to meeting my (now ex) husband. We had a long term relationship (4+ years), we lived together, and we had a son together who was born still.
He cheated.

I was in a long term relationship with my daughter's dad. We lived together and raised our daughter together. We were a family in every sense of the word.
He cheated on me with his ex throughout my entire pregnancy, and literally while I was in the hospital having my c-section.

So yes, I am distinctly aware of how painful it is to experience betrayal and cheating.

Many of us have been in previous relationships in which we have been cheated on.
Some of us are Mad Hatters in our own relationships.
Some of us have experienced infidelity from our parents and suffered pain, betrayal, and devastation in that way as cheating has destroyed our families. Not the same as experiencing it from your own spouse, but definitely that territory comes with it's own set of unique pain and heartache.

The idea that we can't *possibly* comprehend the pain we have caused by being unfaithful and therefore BS is justified in doing whatever they damn well please is quite frankly really offensive.
Many of us do understand to the point that having to live with what we did keeps us awake at night and makes us really hate ourselves.

At the end of the day, with Buzzy- he came here feeling completely justified in his RA and continuing contact with his AP. He has since had a change of heart because all of us WS recognized the selfish, self destructive wayward thought patterns and explained the logical fallacies. This is an awesome thing and it sounds like he and his wife have a chance to hash things out and the potential to really make some progress this weekend. That is what this site is all about.

Encouraging Buzzy, or anyone really, that they are justified in cheating is extremely not helpful and quite frankly, pretty inflammatory here.

anoldlion posted 11/8/2019 21:15 PM

I understand Newton's third law, "For every action there is an equal and opposit reaction." I also understand and agree with the concept that if one action hadn't occurred there would not have been a reaction. Therefore the original action is the cause of the reaction, whatever that reaction may be. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the reaction was the declaration of war, action and reaction. I also realize that the reaction can be up for debate. To Buzzy that reaction was equal in the form of a RA.
Buzzy wrote a while back that if he had not had the affair there would not have been any reconciliation because his wife's affair was eating him alive like cancer. So here is the question for the WS. If you desperately wanted to save your marriage and the only thing that would do that would be your BS having their own affair, would you agree? Consider this. If you say no then you are exhibiting traits of hypocrisy and entitlement. If you say yes then you are bringing more toxicity, mistrust, hurt, and problems into a marriage that is already on the verge of total destruction. So what would be your answer? I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 9:15 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 11/8/2019 23:00 PM

If you desperately wanted to save your marriage and the only thing that would do that would be your BS having their own affair, would you agree?
I said yes because I didn't feel I had a right to say no. BH didn't actually sleep with OW (he called a halt at the critical moment), but he wishes he hadn't done anything at all.

Buffer posted 11/9/2019 02:04 AM

Buzzy;

how was the weekend with WW?

FoenixRising posted 11/9/2019 06:38 AM

Not gonna lie, having my A may be the one thing that did save my M. That doesn’t mean it was right or that I’d do it again or recommend it.

Here’s the thing. Morally we should all work to show compassion over selfishness. Infidelity is selfishness. Regardless of motivation, it’s less rewarding overall to show selfishness over compassion.

It does not matter what happened before when the opportunity to cheat is staring you in the eye. The choice is yours. It’s right or it’s wrong. It’s compassionate or is it selfish? What kind of person do you want to be? You get to chose.

Think about drug addicts. If you found out your Spouse was addicted to drugs, would you want him/her off drugs? Or would you start doing drugs with them? The choice is ours. If you’re head is not straight, you go for the heroin bc something is broken in YOU TOO and you join your spouse? Do you feel better now? Your both addicted to crack now and really effed up but hey, you’re in the same level now.

What we recovering cheaters have learned bc we went through the ringer up and down the street again, is that you’re not in the right head space (regardless of circumstances past) if you are willing to cheat. You wouldn’t say yes to crack bc your spouse did so you shouldn’t be saying yes to other unhealthy choices like boning the neighbor, or in my case, my H’s x best friend.

Infidelity is wrong no matter what.

[This message edited by FoenixRising at 6:39 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

ShutterHappy posted 11/9/2019 08:56 AM

Imagine the following scenario:

Bob has been working for AliceCorp for 10 years. But Bob just uncovered a troubling fact: After getting a call from the bank for a bounced check, he discovers that he hasn’t been paid in 2 months. Confronting the CEO Alice, she say that she never really liked him, he’s a poor worker who doesn’t do his job properly. Bob also learns that Alice hired Mark to do some of his job and his pay now goes to Mark.

Bob: why not fire me?
Alice: I didn’t want to hurt your feelings! Beside now that I have your work and Mark’s work, the company profit increased 10% and I’ll get a nice fat bonus, what’s not to like? And besides, it’s all your fault, you didn’t pay enough attention to me during meetings...

The point so far is that Alice broke her contract with Bob: work in exchange for money. Alice is trying to have her cake and eat it too (and extra stock options)

The contract is now null and void. Waywards expect Bob to continue to honour his contract while Alice takes full avantage of him.

Bob now has some options:

1. Sue Alice but continue to work unpaid at her company until the court declares the contract void. After all, he signed the contract and even if Alice doesn’t honor it, he’s the moral man (wait for D before dating)
2. Bob decides to go work for a competitor right away, hurting Alice’s business by his absence and by helping the competition and figure out his worth on the market. Is he such a bad worker like Alice says? (on D day, or soon after, marriage is void, go sleep with someone else)
3. Alice promise to fire Mark and pay him back and give him a better contract. Bob will also have access to the accounting system to verify that he gets paid (Marriage contract is void, a new marriage agreement is put in place, this is R)
4. Accept the terms of #3 above, but while at work, steel secrets from Alice’s business and sell it to her competitor, making extra cash. Set the business on fire. After all, she "deserves" it, being such a lousy CEO. That’s a RA.

I haven’t read all the OP thread. After discovery, I don’t know if Buzzy committed to R.

If he has not, the moment Miss Buzzy panties came off, the marriage contract was void. Buzzy was free to meet any girls and do whatever in Seville. Miss Buzzy was free to continue to meet her AP (I think it’s hikingout that pointed that out but I’m not sure).

As such, it’s not even an "affair". Yes there’s revenge, but how could it be an affair when there’s no more marriage?


If Buzzy had wanted to do a RA, he would have gone with option #4. Accept to commit to R, commit to the new marriage, then have a 4 months affair without telling Miss Buzzy until after the affair ends.

anoldlion posted 11/9/2019 10:10 AM

ShutterHappy: I agree 100% with everything you said. I have expressed my stance many times that there is no such thing as a RA. My belief that once one spouse breaks their vows then the entire relationship is broken. I have said before that a relationship/marriage is like an egg. Ever tried to break half an egg. Can't be done. If the BS then hooks up with someone else it is an affair and not a RA. The only thing that is left of a marriage mired in infidelity is a legal piece of paper filed in the county files(marriage license) and can be made null and void with the signature of a judge. Until an agreement to divorce or reconcile is reached by both BS and WS then there is no relationship to cheat on by either. My 2 cents. I do wish you well.

HeartBreaker11 posted 11/9/2019 10:36 AM

The only thing that is left of a marriage mired in infidelity is a legal piece of paper filed in the county files(marriage license) and can be made null and void with the signature of a judge. Until an agreement to divorce or reconcile is reached by both BS and WS then there is no relationship to cheat on by either.

If there's no marriage anymore, why are BS so hurt when their WS continues contact with the AP after asking for NC? Why demand NC at all from someone who they are no longer married to?

There is a period of time in which the BS is in limbo. If you are saying that this limbo time is not considered married, then you seemingly have no problem with any WS who chooses to continue seeing their AP, acquires more AP, etc. during that time. That's not cheating. That's not continuing an affair because there is no marriage.

Another huge thing that BS ask for often times right away and while still in limbo is a timeline. It makes sense- how can you commit to R without a timeline? How can you commit to R without knowing the whole truth? But if what you are saying is correct- there is no marriage anymore, the WS shouldn't need to give a timeline until the BS commits to R. I mean, once the marriage is over, the WS doesn't owe the BS any form of communication. It really puts this whole process in a conundrum.

Many BS install tracking systems, cameras, and keyloggers. It's part of building trust. If there is no marriage anymore, this is honestly kind of stalking someone. While my husband and I were married, I had zero problem with him tracking me because I broke trust and was trying to earn it back. We are divorced now, and if he was continuing to track me, I would press charges for stalking. There is no marriage anymore, and it's inappropriate for him to track me.

It seems to me that you consider "limbo" time as married for the WS but also time for the BS to be able to claim that they are not married and do whatever they want to.

Darkness Falls posted 11/9/2019 10:47 AM

If there's no marriage anymore, why are BS so hurt when their WS continues contact with the AP after asking for NC? Why demand NC at all from someone who they are no longer married to?

This is what I want to know—ESPECIALLY if they go the route of the RA. Then either of them can do what they wish. If they’re going to do it too, why do they care what the original WS does?

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 10:48 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

Zugzwang posted 11/9/2019 11:47 AM

We can continue to circle back and forth on how cheaters can’t possibly understand the depth of pain, but we have unique insights as well, and most of those insights are in ways humans fool themselves into placing their well-being in the hands of others. So please don’t think anyone’s casting stones, we’re simply ID’ing destructive behaviors that resonate with how we understand our previous justifications.
Well said.

If you say no then you are exhibiting traits of hypocrisy and entitlement.
And always an answer C. That you did not point out. No, and it means you have changed and grown to give a healthy answer that doesn't exhibit hypocrisy and entitlement except to those that aren't healthy enough to see that it is what it is. Still choosing to now be morally following the right thing to do. Because afterall the reality and truth is still the truth and right thing to move forward with integrity from
recognized the selfish, self destructive wayward thought patterns and explained the logical fallacies.
If choosing that path of integrity makes me a hypocrite so be it. I would rather live honestly and keep the integrity I worked hard for and be viewed as a hypocrite by those that when it comes down to it- state they have that same moral and ethical value. There is more to physics than Newton's Third Law. Take into account potential energy (stresses within itself)based on the object. It still always exists. It isn't just about the stimuli. Making it kinetic.

My belief that once one spouse breaks their vows then the entire relationship is broken.
Is cheating the only way to break the entire relationship. I don't think the entire relationship is broken till they both separate or get a divorce. I mean honestly there are many ways marriages get broken. Gambling, drinking, abuse, drugs...I have never suffered from any of these but I have to wonder if those people think the same way. I really think many must because we get plenty here that cheat on a BS that exhibits these things and to them the marriage is broken and the BS didn't think it was. Just saying the marriage is good and broken when there is divorce to me. Otherwise each party could define good and broken in different ways.

If RA or "so-called healing because there really isn't a marriage due to someone breaking up the marriage" worked so well, why are so many here wracked in pain from being madhatters? Proof is in the pudding.


Zugzwang posted 11/9/2019 15:00 PM

The more I think about blaming your actions on someone else due to your reaction to their action, the more I see it as someone saying they only do the right thing to avoid punishment and consequences. Like I don't steal and murder because I don't want to go to jail. It should be you don't do it because it is wrong, hurtful, and cruel. The act of cheating doesn't just magically become good and alright because someone else did it to you. Especially if you know that pain and chose to inflict in on someone else's OBS. IMO that makes a person even worse. Knowing the pain and choosing to get even and hurt some other innocent OBS knowing that pain. The abuse analogy of hitting back is self defense till you can escape. Divorce is self defense. It isn't the same.

anoldlion posted 11/9/2019 17:04 PM

In answer to Zugzwang's answer of NO to the question I ask means the WS has changed and grown and their answer does not reflect hypocrisy and entitlement. Isn't it amazing that the change and growth of the WS miraculously occurs only after their affair is discovered? I will agree about change and growth if there is years between the affair and it's discovery but not in a few weeks or months. I discovered what happened in my marriage years after it happened. I thought about it and then moved on because my marriage since then has been great. I have had a lot of worse things to get over than that. I've seen too much death and destruction. In reality it is in the hands of the BS. Whatever it takes to ease the pain is their choice.
I agree that cheating is not the only way to destroy a relationship. But it can be destroyed way before a divorce. All it takes to destroy a relationship is for one of the partners to say "I'm done". It can be because of alcohol, gambling, treating your partner like they are a piece of furniture, no attention or emotional support and many other things. When one spouse reaches a point where something becomes more important than their partner then that relationship is almost dead. Right now I know a man who's drugs and alcohol was more important than his wife. The wife is now a single parent.
As far as who did what and who blames who, there is no way you can get around the fact that if there had been no action then there would not have been a reaction. No action, no reaction. The action caused everything that happened after it occurred. After 53 years of marriage I can give some advice on how to keep it happy. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 5:10 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

JBWD posted 11/9/2019 18:49 PM

Isn't it amazing that the change and growth of the WS miraculously occurs only after their affair is discovered?

Not really. It’s a catalyst.

How many on these posts highlight that despite the pain and anguish this causes, there is value in the growth and change in people who are committed to it?

There’s no value in an A. It’s the worst betrayal there is. But there’s a lot of people on this site who have taken that pain and anguish (and that includes cheaters too, because if you think those days when we see ourselves are easy...) and at the least changed themselves for the better.

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