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For the original unfaithful to compare an RA with what they did feels completely disingenous to me. Was his cheating right? Maybe not. I’m not sure, frankly. But if it gave him the ability to LIVE with what she did, to survive the agony, to feel less emasculated and less like dying, then I don’t blame him. I will tell you there has been nothing in my life to compare this pain to. To have your spouse retaliate with a RA — I still don’t think you reach the same level of pain. I truly don’t.

I agree with you about this. I have posted that same thought over on the other forums, that it wouldn't have the same effect. The BS is blindsided, thinks they are in a happy marriage. There is shock and trauma. I totally agree. For the WS, it would hurt yes, but I don't think there would be as much shock and trauma.

I don't think it's about comparing which is worse though. It's about the idea that he wants to repair his marriage and he's still justifying his actions. Justifying why he can stay in contact with his AP. That's what most of us are speaking up against. I think everyone can truly see how someone reeling from this would consider an RA. And, I think that we would just advise you not to do it, because having an affair is so hollow. It's a distraction, it's a band-aid. It fixes nothing. I don't think it's that no one has empathy for that situation, I think it's specifically what he's saying about it 14 months later that is troubling. He says he wants to reconcile. I wouldn't suggest he has to go through every rigor a WS does, but NC with the AP, and acknowledging some accountability over having an affair would be something I would want to move forward with him if he were my BS. That's all. I actually think some of the comments you are referencing came from other BS's and not WS's.

You are correct. I was referencing a myriad of comments by various posters. I would agree, if he wants R, he needs to go NC with the AP. That I agree with. That’s one of the few comments I do think is reasonable. But to hear people calling the RA malicious etc got my back up. Truly. I think if someone has RA and it helps them survive, it is what it is. I cannot hold them to the same standard I do the original offender. It’s like when you hear of revenge crimes. You watch an old Western, like “Unforgiven” with Clint Eastwood. The basic premise is revenge. Revenge is a primal motivation. We all want to even the playing field, and hope to restore the scales of justice. RA may not do that, and may make things worse, but if it helped him internally, I can’t say he did the wrong thing. Frankly, as I’ve said, many think I should have RA myself, in order to get over the constant comparisons, and also to understand exactly what an A really means, or does not mean to the cheater. The unknown, the constant mind movies, the imagination running wilddoes such damage to BS, especially when they thought the sun and moon hung on their spouse, and had felt beloved in return, right up to and until they began cheating. How do you rebalance the scales? I can’t get my head around it, and I don’t want to live in this morass of pain. However, it isn’t a “choice” as I keep hearing. My husband abused me so badly during his A I developed PTSD. I’m doing the work. Endless counselling, so many books, treatments, groupwork etc. I’m in a better place than I was originally, when I literally could not move from my bed, could not swallow food, could not be present for my babies. But while the pain is diminishing, it is still there, omnipresent below the surface. I truly don’t think the US will ever be able to understand the magnitude of what they’ve done, even if their BS seeks revenge. The bonds you sever with your betrayal are countless. and the disconnection, for many of us, will be permanent and felt for the duration of our lives, even if reconciliation does take place. Will trust ever be what it was? How can it be? Will the love ever be as intense? I don’t buy it, or the people who say their relationship is/was “better” after an A. I think that’s hogwash. I just watched a video from Dr. Doug Weiss. It showed that prior to an A, most BS trusted their spouses about 70%. After an A — trust drops to just 6%. Basically every measure of happiness and satisfaction dropped below 10%. The destruction is real, it is pervasive, and it is long (or ever) lasting.

Buzzy, I do not understand how you can say this:

I believe my wifes reaction to Claire at the time was founded upon unjustified jealousy.

Gently, you cannot heal, much less R, unless you get a lot more self-aware.

*****

To sort my head out, to expunge the guilt of the awful thing i said to her, to believe we can be happy together again and not just in a rut together.

Not so gently, you cannot heal, much less R, unless you get a lot more self-aware.

Cheating does something nasty to the cheater. Unless you recognize that, you will keep yourself stuck in an emotional cesspool.

I am really sorry to say this, but if your W described your behavior and attitude in the G forum and asked what readers thought about your chances to R, the responses would say overwhelmingly that you do not look like a remorseful WS and that you - you, not your W - do not look like a good candidate for R.

In your A, you sought external validation from a predator. External validation never works. It's a nice thing to get when you self-validate, but it simply cannot fill up the hole you feel inside of you if you don't self-validate.

And no, thinking you're OK because a hot looking predator came on to you is not self validation. BTW, how much of Claire's expenses did you pay? Was she in it for the money or for what your money bought her? (No. I know. Couldn't be.) Or did she just want a date - your time and money for her body?

You clearly are not self-validating, since your message to us is that your healing path was to spend a weekend with this hot girl.

You can make yourself a good candidate for R, and your W is probably beaten down enough to accept you even if you don't, but if you don't change yourself from cheater to good partner, you'll be selling yourself out.

Note y objection to what you're doing. It's not moral. My objection is that you have hurt yourself and continue to do so.

And you know it.

******

You had you affair because you lacked self esteem and self worth. You choose to be selfish and had an affair despite having a good marriage.

Did you not read Buzzy's statement about why he cheated? Sure read like he lacked self-esteem and self-worth to me.

You husband wasn't aware of you sleeping with your ap. He didn't get a choice in that matter.

Mrs. Buzzy didn't have a choice, either.

You broke your marriage because you didnt care about you marrige or your husband.

Gently, that's a story you're telling yourself. Many WSes cheat despite thinking they care about their Ms and BSes.

To get out of infidelity, to thrive after infidelity, you need to stay in touch with reality, part of which is recognizing what people actually say to you and accepting that they say it.

What people say may not compute for you. They may have ulterior motives. They may think their words say one thing while you think they say something else. But we all need to start with what people say and do - and we need to be very aware of how our own chosen filters separate us from reality.

It's hard not to employ filters, of course, especially when traumatized. Thriving after being betrayed, however, requires BSes to minimize using the filters through which we view the life.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:04 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

This entire thread reminds me so much of where I was at when I first came here.

My ex husband is an alcoholic. He lied to me on a regular basis about where he was and what he was doing. He was emotionally unavailable, as he had always been drinking. Physically, we stopped having sex because he wasn't able to perform. He was emotionally and verbally abusive and on some occasions was even borderline violent towards me. I begged him to stop drinking, to get help, to go to AA meetings. I begged him to attend marriage counseling with me. I begged him to participate in our marriage. I communicated with him time and time again that I was unhappy, unsatisfied, lonely, and tempted to leave. Because of all of this, I felt so justified in my affair.

I thought I could come here and tell my story and everyone would think I was so different. I thought I was so different. I had been holding onto resentment for YEARS for my husband's behavior and I felt like I was entitled to my own time of selfishness. Surely MY affair was reasonable. Understandable. Surely MY circumstances made things different than other marriages. Surely MY cheating was not as bad as other WS, because MY reasons were more justified and better.

I was wrong.

I was so wrong that my marriage was unsalvageable and I am left picking the pieces up alone, as a single mom.

Maybe my marriage was not salvageable prior to my affair. I don't know. What I do know is that my choice to cheat did nothing to help the state it was in prior.

That's how I see RA. I understand it. I empathize with it.

I empathize with and understand a lot of the reasons people have for cheating.

But ultimately, it does nothing to help recovery, nothing to help towards R, and causes further damage, destruction, and hurt.

In a healthy marriage, both partners need to be just that. Partners. At some point, the two of you need to let go of this idea of "evening out the score" and even the idea of keeping score at all.

BSR

You didn't care that AP was vulnerable. You didn't care that your AP is still a human, capable of feeling extreme pain, and YOU made the choice to put AP in a position to lose people (you and your WW) who she obviously cared about.

I don't see Claire as any kind of victim. It appears that she was flirting with Buzzy early on, and his wife sensed it and tried to distance both herself and her husband from the threat to the marriage. Her perception was vindicated when Claire was the one who told Buzzy to book one room because they were going to have sex. She has zero remorse about what she did and thinks fucking a married man, the husband of an ex-friend, was nothing more than a fun interlude. I surmise from Buzzy's reference to the A being over "for now" that she left the door open on future cheating. She sounds like an opportunist to me, and I'm not feeling any compulsion to rush to her defense.

I realize how my message did not come across the way it was intended. I attempted to explain in the next paragraph how I don't believe AP was a victim, but looking back I get how it may have looked that way.

By vulnerable I was saying I believed he had a pretty solid understanding she would make an easy target because of his WW's discomfort with her intentions toward him. By human I meant exactly that, another human being. I think what she did was intentional, malicious, and that she was using him at the same time he was using her. In no way was I trying to excuse her behavior.

Choosing the one person his WW feared him straying with looks a lot like a power play. It's easy to understand where he could see Claire as the ultimate revenge tool.

The resistance to NC with Claire is what has me questioning the most. It made me wonder if he's really ready to stop seeking revenge, or if he's shelving that revenge tool to be used again at a later date...even if he doesn't consiencely realize what it is.

Maybe you should explore the respect issues. You how DARE she do this. Then, went on feeling emasculated because she DARED to do this. Then, went on getting your revenge and your pound of flesh. This condition existed before her affair and that is yours to own. That anyone would DARE to slight you. A better person would feel hurt and turn the other cheek. Left because they were cheated on or respected themselves enough to not be in a relationship with someone that didn't love them. But, you only mention how DARE she. That is a character flaw that you have and need to work on. That attitude that enables entitlement to do whatever in order to seek revenge, vengeance, or your sense of justice. No matter if it is wrong or right. Your character could have grown, instead you decided to sooth the OUTRAGE. Character flaws that existed in you for a long time. That is why no one can ever blame others for their choice to cheat. How we react to outside stimuli is on us. Our choices. Our character strengths and weaknesses. Yours was your pride. You could not cope with a hit to your ego.

I still missed what her reasons were for cheating as another poster asked. That can be a big roadblock for you if she is using you and the marriage as her excuse or if she is honest and talking about where she is suffering and hurt in her own character and you couldn't find grace to see that.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 6:21 AM, November 7th (Thursday)]

((Hellfire))

You’re strength is admirable. I wish I had dealt with my pain in a different way. I really do. Anything but infidelity.

Please don’t stop posting. The point is to give pause. You certainly present a side I don’t always see and I am thankful for that. Other waywards and BS’s alike respect your input and truth. You are clear. You are precise. Your advice/message is usually black or white with a little highlighting. No gray.

It’s ok for you too to be human and see things gray sometimes. That is what makes us human and able to relate to each other. Besides, you are a BS. You can be trusted with gray. It’s we waywards that cannot manage gray. It’s too tempting for us. I NEED black or white. Waywards need black or white.

IN MY HUMBLE AND WAYWARD OPINION buzzy is now a wayward. If you become a wayward, no matter the reason, it is inexcusable and a sign of how broken you are internally. Until that gets fixed, the wayward has no business being with AP, unless there is to be a divorce.

With that, I will leave this thread. I kinda knew before I posted my first comment,how it would be received. There are certain members here who seem to be held in high standards, and disagreeing with even ONE of their comments isn't going to go over well.

HellFire,

I have no idea if what you wrote above was directed in part to me in any way, but I just wanted to let you know that I agree with everything FoenixRising said to you.

Personally, I would hate to see you leave threads or not post. I think your style is great and your perspective is helpful. So what if we disagree? When someone posts something that hits me a certain way I try to step back and think about my gut response, what they said, their point of view, am I off in my thinking and so on. Posts like yours keep someone like me honest and learning and growing. Disagreements are normal and healthy.

Anyway, that was a long way of me saying that personally I appreciate your posts and look forward to them.

I have sent you a PM hellfire, but I think we misunderstood each other potentially. when you said "the statement missed it's mark" I read it as you saying YOUR statement missed it's mark. I didn't know you were directing it at a specific statement Mrs. Walloped made. It took me re-reading it 3 or 4 times before I understood.

The reason I debated you was because it sounded like you were directing you initial comments to all the other waywards that responded to buzzy. (Because the WS were sure taking a beating in the other forum about our entitlement) I also used "the reason" doesn't matter argument and I thought I was included in what you were saying. I can understand how the washing dishes comment would have gotten under your skin. 100%. I can also say, I did understand why Mrs. Walloped used that as an example of any excuse.

Anyway, I hope you read this because I find that usually I agree with you a lot. And, when I don't, I learn why I should sometime later...and that's a fact. Take care ((Hellfire)) And, I just gave you my first virtual parenthesis hug ever in this forum, out of my few thousand posts I was never compelled to do it before.

Hi

Strange turn of events last night, I arrived hamr rather later than normal at about 7-45, my wife had fed the kids and cooked our dinner.

I played with the kids for about an hour then sent some e mails, took the kids to bed, all very normal.

Came down and found my wife had cooked my favourite meal (chilli) and suggested "i get a bottle of wine no make that two".

To cut a long story short we ended up drunk, she asked me what we needed for the weekend and I made some drunken remark about stockings, she told me I was being rather presumptious and that was not what the weekend was to be about but she had a huge grin on her face, we then had a drunken discussions about my, in her words "obsession" with french knickers and fishnets, all this whilst we were both laughing like idiots. I started to apologise for "everything" but she put her finger on my lips and said "not now love we can do all that at the weekend".

About 1am we went to bed and as we lay down she said to me "were going to make it Buzzy I am certain of that"

I think we lanced the boil last night because all the bitterness on my part seems to have dissipated.

We did not rugsweep because we have never explored the "whys".

Zug

There is a lot of truth in you words.

Onlyjan, you so nailed it.

The soul searing pain does something to you. To say that Buzzy always had it in him to cheat is BS.

It is completely unfair, and complete minimization of the agony a Betrayed goes through on dday. The biggest excuse cheaters give, is that they are broken people. In this case it was Buzzy's wife cheating that broke him.

So now, on top of everything he has to heal because of his cheater, he gets to deal with this break, too.

This, in my opinion, is getting over looked. Yes, it was his responsibility to control his actions, but until you have actually lived this level of betrayal, you can not possibly understand the agony.

We did not rugsweep because we have never explored the "whys".

That's the definition of rugsweeping. LOL.

I am not trying to beat you over the head Buzzy, but for your wife to become a safe partner, she needs to know the whys. She needs to acknowledge her flaws that led to her affair and she needs to work on changing them.

I think your whys are a little more simple - you could not cope with the trauma of the affair, so you may have some new coping skills that you should shore up so that if something else non-cheating related occurs that is traumatic, you have new effective skills to deal with those things.

I do hope you make it but you need to learn a little more about infidelity and rug sweeping, otherwise, you are just putting a band-aid on something and trying to focus on your fond feelings. It's ignoring something catastrophic happens. With all that, I do wish you peace and I do hope that you find happiness.

Hiking, i get your point but it has been more of a delayed interegation than a rugsweep. When i came back from Spain i realised the hurt i had done to my wife but was conflicted, i both wanted to hug her and rub her face in it i settled for becoming glorified room mates and FWB.

I have no doubt if i had allowed it this weekends discussion would have happened long ago but the fact that i never was willing to listen to her gave some perverse power over her.

I agree with Zug

Onlyjan your post really give detail reasonings then mine did.

Silver, which one are you referring to?

I need your advice, we have agreed to be totally honest and she will probably ask me about sex with Claire, if i am totally honest i will have to say it was the best i have ever had. I realise it was new relationship energy plus the illicit nature in a very romantic city but tbh it was wonderful.

What would you say.

Buzzy, you are not perfect as has been adequately pointed out in this thread.

And, as has also been vociferously pointed out, you are supposed to be perfect even in the face of soul-crushing imperfection in others.

To be honest, I doubt that you would have ever had the ability to seriously consider reconciliation without the RA. Is that true for everyone? Obviously not. Does that make it any less true for you? I doubt it. Does that make you a bad person? Not in my opinion.

FWIW, one of the few things I agree with here is the idea that you cannot be in contact with Claire any more if you intend to reconcile your marriage. The playing field must now be indeed level.

I think you should be honest with her if that's the truth. I wouldn't advise saying it just to hurt her, but I think to move forward both of you have to be 100 percent honest with each other.

And, I think she does need to examine her whys and figure all that out, because if she doesn't there can be instances of cheating in the future, and that's why we say don't rugsweep.

And, as has also been vociferously pointed out, you are supposed to be perfect even in the face of soul-crushing imperfection in others.

I disagree, no one thinks he needs to be perfect, but everyone thinks it's better to put away his justifications now, 14 months later. If my BH cheated, I would understand how it happened, but he would need to be able to tell me why he believes cheating is wrong and won't do it in the future. I don't think anyone could consider someone a safe partner who advocates that it's a good fix for things and that he will do what he wants and she will have to deal with it. You can't reconcile with someone who has that attitude moving forward. THAT's what most of us WS are advocating. The harshest comments he got were from BS's IMO.