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So here is the question for the WS. If you desperately wanted to save your marriage and the only thing that would do that would be your BS having their own affair, would you agree?

It’s not a secret that I’m against the idea of an RA. But your question isn’t fair for a lot of reasons. My BH and I separated for a while after DDay and I really thought he was going to sleep with someone else. I don’t know how to describe my feelings. I didn’t even know how to ask him if he was planning on doing it and if he did I felt like I had no ability to say anything about it. All I know is I was scared and powerless. I’m not comparing my feelings at the time to how a BS feels after DDay. What I’m saying is that asking if a WS would agree misses a lot of what a WS feels or thinks after DDay. It’s not an intellectual exercise.

So, speaking from my own experience, I wouldn’t say anything, accept that the decisions was his, and then afterwards figure out if I could live with it. I don’t think I could though. I thought that he would even though he said he wouldn’t, but he was so angry I thought he might have felt he needed it. While he was away I just assumed we would be divorcing because he’d sleep with someone else and that would be it.

Consider this. If you say no then you are exhibiting traits of hypocrisy and entitlement.

I always thought this was a silly thing to say. Why does that matter? What is the big deal about being a hypocrite? It’s like people are so scared of being called a hypocrite that they’re willing to do something wrong or condone bad things. Just because you do something wrong doesn’t mean you can’t recognize it was wrong. It doesn’t mean you now have to think it’s all of a sudden right.

If you have children you’ve probably had this conversation.

DS/DD uses foul language.

“Hey DS, watch your language!”

“Sorry Mom.”

2 hours later you cut yourself chopping veggies.

“@%#$!”

“Maaaa! You said a bad word!”

“You’re right, honey. I guess it’s okay if you say it too from now on.”

Wait. That’s not what you do? You mean you acknowledge you did something wrong, explain that you shouldn’t have and you’re working on being more careful? You parent? You adult? But, then you’re a hypocrite!

If you say yes then you are bringing more toxicity, mistrust, hurt, and problems into a marriage that is already on the verge of total destruction.

Like I said before, sometimes it’s not that you’re saying yes. Sometimes it’s that you don’t feel that you have a voice to say anything at all. It’s not the same thing as saying yes.

It’s also not fair to say that the WS is bringing more toxicity and all the rest into the marriage. The BS is presenting that option and is the one threatening to do that. The BS could have threatened to do other things that wouldn’t bring toxicity and mistrust and hurt into the marriage. Instead they present an RA as something they want to do but it’s the WS’s fault if they agree?

I always thought this was a silly thing to say. Why does that matter? What is the big deal about being a hypocrite? It’s like people are so scared of being called a hypocrite that they’re willing to do something wrong or condone bad things. Just because you do something wrong doesn’t mean you can’t recognize it was wrong. It doesn’t mean you now have to think it’s all of a sudden right.

I don't quite know what to say to this. The issue isn't thinking it's right. Are you under the impression that Walloped thinks what you did is right, just because you're still together? That his giving you another chance means he condones your cheating?

Not at all! I don’t know how you got that from what I posted.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems a big argument used against a WS is that if we say an RA is wrong then we are hypocrites. I just don’t understand that. Why is being a hypocrite a bad thing in that case?

Just because I did something wrong doesn’t mean I now can’t recognize that what I did was wrong. If someone asks my opinion about it why shouldn’t I be able to say it’s wrong? Because I might be called a hypoacrite? Who cares? It’s wrong!

That his giving you another chance means he condones your cheating?

I don’t think I ever said anything like that.

Although, speaking personally, it was a thing for him. He did feel like it did for a long while and he had a hard time with that. But that’s besides the point.

I didn't think so, but what you said was that if your BH went out and slept with someone else, you think that would be it for you, you'd divorce him. Then you defended the apparent hypocrisy of this stance by saying that the alternative to hypocrisy is condoning something you know to be wrong. So if Walloped isn't condoning cheating by staying with you, why would you be condoning cheating by staying with him? If you would't, your stated defense of hypocrisy falls apart. What am I missing?

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:31 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

We're cross-posting a bit, but it appears that we are talking about two different things. You are addressing how some members think an RA is perfectly ok. I'm talking about your statement that you would not stay in the marriage if he did to you what you did to him.

I didn't think so, but what you said was that if your BH went out and slept with someone else, you think that would be it for you, you'd divorce him. Then you defended the apparent hypocrisy of this stance by saying that the alternative to hypocrisy is condoning something you know to be wrong. So if Walloped isn't condoning cheating by staying with you, why would you be condoning cheating by staying with him? If you weren't, your stated defense of hypocrisy falls apart. What am I missing?

Oh. No, that’s not what I was saying.

I was discussing my own feelings from back after DDay. I thought he was going to sleep with someone else and that I just assumed we were going to get divorced because of me. I assumed that on DDay too. I thought his sleeping with someone else would have been a revenge thing and would have further convinced me that we were over.

Totally separate from that was my feelings that I had no idea how I was going to get through staying married if he did sleep with someone else but also if he didn’t want to D even though I knew then how ridiculous that was. I honestly don’t know what would have happened to us if he had.

And totally separate from that is the question of whether an RA is wrong. But just because I already did it doesn’t make it right. And just because I did the wrong thing doesn’t mean I now have to say it’s really right.

I don’t get what you’re saying about my BH staying with me or me staying with him. What does R have to do with whether having an A is right or wrong? You can believe it’s wrong and still R, right?

Sorry my comments created a debate but I have always had a major problem with....

"Don't do as I do. Do as I say do."

And that is where my view of hypocrisy stems from. If I smoked and then forbid my son to do the same, under threat of a penalty, then I am being hypocritical. If I stopped smoking and explained to my son how detrimental smoking can be then it's his decision to do as I did or not. But if he did still decide to smoke it would not cause me to abandon him since he chose to smoke because he saw me smoke. Sorry, I'm not explaining this very well.

As for feeling you have no choice to say "no", I learned a long time ago that you always have a choice. Even if all the choices may be horrible, you still have a choice. Being silent and not telling what a RA would do to you as a WS, is a choice.

Maybe me being so much older than most of you, my view point differs in todays atmosphere of political correctness. When I was MrsWalloped age we dealt with infidelity in ways that would get us arrested today. In my day the POS AP would get a "whopping" and the WS would be tagged as a wanton woman or, in case of a man, a worthless sneaky dog.

The yes or no question I ask was prompted by Buzzy's statement that there probably would not have been any R without his RA. I wanted to see what would be a WS opinion on that thought.

And lastly, if the WS answers yes to the question it isn't them that is bring more toxicity into the situation. That falls squarely on the shoulders of the BS having the RA.

I'll shut up now. I do wish you well.

"Don't do as I do. Do as I say do."

I completely agree with this. But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? We’re discussing “Don’t do as I did.”

If learning from bad behavior and growing and figuring out what’s right and what’s wrong and holding ourselves accountable to that as we work to become healthy and safe people isn’t what we’re supposed to do, then I don’t understand the point of the Wayward Forum at all.

You can believe it’s wrong and still R, right?

Yes, absolutely. I'm pretty sure every R on this site is founded on that premise.

I think I just misunderstood your argument about hypocrisy. I believe I get what you were trying to say now, or at least a ballpark approximation of it.

I believe I get what you were trying to say now, or at least a ballpark approximation of it.

That’s more than most! I’ll take it!

Okay, I think I get what you were talking about. When I was “defending” hypocrisy, I wasn’t talking about me possibly wanted to divorce my BH if he had an RA. I was talking about the idea of an RA and saying whether it’s right or wrong. And my point is that a WS doesn’t give up their ability to say its wrong just because they actually did that bad thing beforehand. Actually, I think it’s a good sign if they say it’s wrong. If a WS would say otherwise I’d call that Wayward thinking because their justifying an A and maybe they’re justifying their own A in their head too.

Okay. I fully agree that if I wanted to divorce my BH if he had an RA then it would completely and totally hypocritical of me. What I was saying is that I went through a period when I thought he might have an RA and I went through all the emotions and I thought we’d divorce afterwards. I assumed if he hated me that much to have an RA to punish me for my A then for sure he’d want to divorce me. I also didn’t know how I’d handle is RA despite me having my own A. I didn’t know how I’d be able to stay married to him. Of course those feelings messed me up inside and I was very much aware of the hypocrisy and I felt that if he did have an RA it was my fault and I deserved it and was to blame for it. But I still didn’t know if I could handle it even if he did want to R after an RA. I was an emotional mess and really had no idea where my life was headed and what was going to happen to us.

I’m not defending the hypocrisy of it, but emotions are emotions. If we R’d even after his having an RA that doesn’t mean I was condoning it (there was no right or wrong thinking back then about his RA. It was purely emotional thinking about him finding someone new to love). Anyway, at the time I honestly had no idea what I’d do and how I’d react.

I don’t know if that made any sense or if I made it even more confusing!

Isn't it amazing that the change and growth of the WS miraculously occurs only after their affair is discovered?

Most things never change unless they have to. The big deal is that they choose to change instead of stay the same.

“The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.”

At some point both parties have to heal and grow. If someone truly believes healing is found or done through something that is wrong, then they really aren't healing. They are just numbing themselves. WE waywards know, get, and understand this. They are just wayward. If you really want to get down to the cause and effect, then by that observation the WS should be given a free pass too. After all, they had their own cause and effect that led to cheating. I could argue to justify my own. I had low self esteem and craved outside validation through acts of service that I my mother caused me to have. So, I can blame my mother and be excused since it is the effect of bad parenting. Of course I know it wasn't my mother's fault. It was mine. I chose my character traits that were influenced by my childhood. I chose my coping actions in relation to stimuli. Any argument for a BS cheating and it being ok can be pinpointed down to their own character and will and where their own deficits are that led them to chose something wrong and harmful (to themselves).

“Don’t do as I did.”

Bingo

I assumed if he hated me that much to have an RA to punish me for my A then for sure he’d want to divorce me. I also didn’t know how I’d handle is RA despite me having my own A. I didn’t know how I’d be able to stay married to him. Of course those feelings messed me up inside and I was very much aware of the hypocrisy and I felt that if he did have an RA it was my fault and I deserved it and was to blame for it. But I still didn’t know if I could handle it even if he did want to R after an RA.

My willingness to forgive an RA came from a belief that it would be hypocritical to say no. Even though he had cheated already, it wasn't in the same universe as what I had done to him. I didn't feel I could ask him to stay if I told him that the ONS he felt he needed was off the table.

And yet, it was a double standard anyway. I think if he said "I'm going to go out and find someone to have an intense EA/PA with for four months and then break up with her," I probably would have said that there was no point in staying together, that he should go do that if he had to and leave me out of it. I was at a crossroads of planning my future after graduation, and I wasn't going to move to be near him if he had someone else. Of course, I don't even know if that kind of RA was possible. How was he going to find a girl who was willing to have an intense four month EA with sex and then watch him return to me? My A was a "Not Just Friends" progression; I didn't advertise it as "I'm going to make you fall in love with me and then dump you." And my BF was not the type to use someone like that. He found a girl for his ONS who was looking for revenge on her cheating BF and more or less knew the score. Actually, in addition to ultimately hating that he cheated on me, I think he also felt guilty about backing out and leaving her feeling rejected when she was seeking validation. It was a lose/lose for everyone involved.

I also wonder if I was more prepared than you were for the idea of my BS with someone else. He had been making noises about the option of dating other people since long before my A. I understand why now, but I didn't then, so there was always part of me that was steeling myself for the news that he had found someone. I hated the idea, but I don't think it was foreign to me as it would have been if we were married.

Finally, although I still think all As are wrong, including RAs, it did make a difference that I believed he wasn't doing it to hurt me. He was willing to hurt me to get what he wanted/needed, which sucked, but I had done exactly that to him. In both cases, the BS was collateral damage rather than the target. I even think I would have understood a rage ONS, but a longer A that had the intentional goal of hurting me would probably have made me decide that we were too broken to fix. I'd have taken ownership of being the one who broke it and bowed out.

As for change and growth, I understand very well what they are. Both usually take time to develop. Without both there would be no progress in any area of life. Change and growth took us from the Wright brothers first flight in 1903 to landing on the moon in 1969. My statement was about the appearance of change and growth immediately after discovery of the action of infidelity. I would think that the change and growth at that time would be more characterized as survivor mode. It's like people on SI who try to explain the difference between sorry, regret and remorse. A WS can be sorry and regret what they did, but, for a good while after the discovery of an affair, the WS mind is so screwed up they have no time for real change and growth, only time for survival. I understand that after a WS gets over the discovery and the storm that follows, that real change and growth can begin. I watched a movie last night on Netflix and there was a line in that movie that got me thinking about this thread. In the movie Rob Lowe was talking to a woman who was divorcing and the changes it would bring. I really liked this line.

"Without change there would be no butterflies."

I do wish you well.

Personally I think any immediate change is just a dog with a bone. It is born totally out of regret for something the wayward values only as an object. So, I do agree with you there about the change and growth taking time as the wayward hopefully becomes less selfish and self-absorbed. Thinking of it in survival mode too is well noted.

The weekend.

Left home after midday on Friday and arrived at the cottage some two hours later, unloaded the car and went to find a pub and to book a table for later.

We both agreed that our "conversation" could wait until the next day. We were both very tired so we went back to the cottage at about 11-30 and were both soon asleep.

Next morning we went to a local cafe for breakfast and went for a walk, after a while Julie said come on we are both avoiding what we came here to do so we returned to the cottage made tea (we are English and started the conversation. The following is a very abridged version of a long conversation with two big surprises.

Me; why did you do what you did?

Julie; for stupid reasons but because i felt irrelevant and a junior partner.

She said when we got married we walked into this big house, your parents are rich and gave us a six figure check as a wedding present and i felt overwhelmed by it all and then the kids came along and everything was laid out for me, complete new nursery all new stuff but it was all given to me and we never had to struggle for anything and I felt superfluous.

Then later when I wanted to go back to work you could never see the reason for it but I needed to do it for me.

When I got my first wage check I asked to take you out to celebrate I wanted to pay but you insisted to picking up the bill and you could not understand why I was upset.

Then there was the car, I wanted a convertable and I was saving to buy it, I wanted to buy it but you bought me one for my birthday, I resented it, it was something I wanted to do for myself.

I know this sounds so very ungrateful and selfish and it is but i felt like a kept woman.

She then went on to say:

Then there is you Buzzy the runner how many times have the kids and i been at the finish line and gone off to the pub and listened to you and your clubmates talking about split times and other stuff whilst I felt like an intruder.

Looking back i can see I have a lifestyle which most would envy and i have little to complain about but I felt like I was Buzzys wife the kids mum but Julie was being lost. Then someone came along who gave me attention and I embarked on an affair, the whole thing lasted about five weeks, we had sex three times but he was in a panic in case his wife found out and i was wracked with guilt and I just said this has to stop, I would never have told you but you saw that text and the rest is history.

I said I hear what you say, can you truthfully tell me this was the first affair and can you promise me it will be the last, she said yes and yes.

I said ok this is hard to hear but I can put this behind me.

(remember this is much abridged)

Julie then said lets talk about you, I knew as soon as you found out that you would have to have a revenge affair your ego could not have had it any other way but the way you went about it was awful, the things you said to me before your trip to Spain and the cold shoulder after you came back yes you didnt verbally abuse me anymore but even when we had sex you were cold to me, for months I expected you to leave me or divorce me, I asked you where we stood and all i got was "we will see".

There was a lot more but in the end Julie said can we put all this behind us, can we be us again and I replied If you can forgive me for the way I treated you then we can and we hugged.

Julie is not a swearer what follows was unusual to say the least.

First suprise, the running club, I suggested i leave the club, her reply "no you fucking wont" why not, because I am going to join on Thursday at your meeting.

Second suprise, What about her? reply, You can say her name its Claire. She told me she would approach Claire apologise for ghosting her and blanking her and expected an apology in return and she hoped they could resume there friendship, I said thats rather big of you and she said its time for forgiveness and time to put all this shit in the past where it belongs> I am not sure about this but it is not my decision the make.

Third suprise, Julie said lets celebrate, open the wine, I am going in the bedroom I will be back shortly, I am thinking I hope this is what I thing it is, Julie shouts out close your eyes I have a suprise for you so I complied she came out and stood in front of me said keep still and then whilst I had my eyes closed she slapped we round the face and then said (capitals for emphasis) YOU ABSOLUTE BASTARD, YOU FUCKER, YOU PUT ME THROUGH MONTHS OF MISERY, YOU TREATED ME LIKE SHIT, i stood there and said does that mean you dont forgive me? reply, of course I do but I had to get that out of my system.

She then opened her dressing gown and said do you like what you see, my reply with a sore face and a big grin, you look like a 1920's Berlin whore just what I have always wanted.

There is more but this is now looking like soft porn.

We were supposed to come back on Sunday but we were having such a great time that we extended the break until Monday, we got back a couple of hours ago.

Thursday should be interesting.

You would make a good fictional writer.

Sadly all the crap is all true, the conversation was truly uncomfortable with a lot of home truths that i was reluctant but had to accept.

I accept that i wronged her far more than she wronged me if these thing can be measured.

We seem closer now than we have been for a long while, maybe it took this crap to show us what we could have lost, who knows. Julie has proved to be the bigger person than me.

We still have a lot of mending to do though.

She does not owe your OW an apology. She doesn’t need to debase herself to fully apologize and reconcile w you. And it doesn’t sound like you’ve each committed to dealing w your internal issues. Yikes. Are you going to also start having beers with the OM? Maybe you can all have a barbecue.

Glad you had a good weekend but I do question that “let’s all be friends” idea and its sustainability not causing further resentment down the line.

[This message edited by Justsomelady at 10:09 AM, November 11th (Monday)]