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Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts - 19

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DogsnBooks posted 4/11/2019 07:00 AM

"Some sex addicts experience the opposite of withdrawal in early recovery. This is known as the honeymoon or the pink cloud. These lucky individuals find that when they embark on the path of healing, they suddenly lose all desire to act out sexually. They are fascinated by the insight they are developing and thrilled to have finally found a solution to their deepest problem. This temporary phase of early recovery is great while it lasts. However, sex addicts who are riding the pink cloud should be aware that their desire to sexually act out will return, and it may be stronger than ever when it does. If this eventuality is not anticipated and prepared for, it is easy to either relapse or to think that something has gone wrong in the healing process. In reality, there is no need for relapse, and nothing is amiss with recovery. Instead, this is a normal part of the process and the addict is simply experiencing a delayed form of withdrawal."

Wow ... the Pink Cloud ... unfortunately I think this describes my SAWH right now. At least we both recognize it, tho didnít know the name. He admits that he has completely turned of the sexual tap in his brain, so to speak. He has he has no desire for it. Which of course means that when/if we are intimate again, it will turn on that part of his brain again (pun intended) and he will probably spiral.

Superesse posted 4/11/2019 10:35 AM

Perhaps this "Pink Cloud" is some author's term for what sex addiction expert Patrick Carnes identified as the sexual anorexia phase in the cycle of sexual addiction. (Correct me if I get this wrong, but) I remember a diagram of a circle, with the sexual anorexia phase shown on the circle just after Discovery Shame.

I don't know about this pink cloud, either. It sounds like maybe a potentially longer-range mindset, not just a "temporary thing" like when therapists call sexual anorexia "a phase" in an ongoing cycle of addiction.

I can say that in my SAWH's case, I am almost sure whatever length his anorexic phase, it seemed to last at least 10 years after my D-Day 1, which is way longer than what books I read suggested as a general time frame. (My SAWH wasn't in therapy after the first year, he never joined a group, and he steadfastly refused to look at his deeper issues.) So yes, this phase or whatever state it is, can drag on for years, unless they get serious about making deeper-level brain changes and "doing the work," and if they do all that work, supposedly the partner will know it. At least...they say that.....

Immediately after D-Day 1, as I watched my SAWH, it seemed he must have thrown a switch, as he appeared to have no more sexual feelings, period. Which I figured was due to my boundary: I let him know that ANY sex with me was O.V.E.R., from that time forth and forever! (I know, I should have moved straight to D, But he was begging and pleading for a second chance, and I had just refinanced my home for us to buy another, and I had no job with which to make the jumbo payments. I was between a rock and a hard place, and refused to get screwed financially, too, if he suddenly left the country for his parents,' as I had reason to believe they hoped he'd do.)

The thing I noticed him struggle with the longest after D-Day 1, about two years at least, was glancing at any random blonde woman we might pass in the store or in a parking lot. Wow, it was instantaneous! Then when I mentioned it, he would almost always swear he wasn't! He was simply looking at something else...I'd reply "Sure, but funny how you suddenly need to look in the same direction." It got to where I could sense someone coming and watch him for his reaction, and 100% of the time, his eyes would dart in her direction, less than half a second after she came within our view...(ironically, he had NEVER looked at me that way, even when I was slender, sexy and had long blonde hair...in fact, making eye contact is still a problem he has - with me.)

Later on, like a year later, his excuse became "No, I wasn't...I just noticed sudden movement." Sure, except he didn't notice OTHER sudden movements! I could tell he was still in DENIAL for a few years, but eventually, I saw that behavior wane and I started to feel like perhaps he was a changed man....except he was still anorexic, no more touch, no hugs, no nothing! 12 years later, he got arrested for soliciting a prostitute. All that self-control work he did, just to end up with a criminal record for the rest of his life. How pathetic.

[This message edited by Superesse at 11:08 AM, April 11th (Thursday)]

ashestophoenix posted 4/11/2019 19:21 PM

Superesse, my husband had problems with eye contact as well. He can be out and about and STARE at a woman or girl, even if it makes her uncomfortable, but not establish eye contact with me. His men's group members got on him about this since he didn't have eye contact with them. He's been working on it.

And, yes, my husband's eyes would dart to ANY woman or girl, but he'd look again and again at whatever he considers attractive. Never did figure out his type...And he's still telling lies about it. The distraction about female bodies, he has a hard time with that one. I don't believe a word he says about his recovery on this issue at all.

I think the pink cloud, like pink elephants in alcoholism, isn't a long period--weeks to maybe months. They can be dry drunks, meaning they are white knuckling, but I think that is different than the pink cloud. I think some of these experiences of seeming sobriety and then a big problem are examples of relapse. Serious relapse. I know that if they relapse, they are like alcoholics and are at a serious state of progressed addiction. It's not addiction "lite".

I also think that they can get sneakier and hide it better from us. Or they make deals with themselves: I won't watch as much porn, but I'll still stare and fantasize about real women. But of course, they are still addicted, they'll progress and escalate. They are still out of control.

I'd like to believe in redemption. My current thinking on SA is that real recovery can only occur with YEARS of hard emotional work. They really do have to develop a moral and ethical code about how to look at and think about people as something other than objects for their stimulation. And I know how slippery my husband's moral code has been and how delusional he is about it.

ashestophoenix

[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 7:22 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]

Superesse posted 4/11/2019 21:28 PM

ashes, thanks for sharing that I am not alone with this eye-contact deficit, combined with inappropriate staring or assessing other bodies - just not mine!

If your husband has been called out on this problem within his Men's SA group, I guess it may not be typical of all sex addicts, then, but just a subset of personality types?

I confess to trying a silly experiment in the early years of marriage, before I knew he had a problem: one evening, I met him at the door "buck naked." I will never forget how his face remained expressionless and he even seemed to be "looking right through me." I was a full figured woman (we used to worry about our bust-waist-hip ratios, is that showing my age? I was 40-30-41 inches at 6 feet tall.) He was 6' 4," needed a size 54 inch "portly cut" jacket, pants were 44 inch waist; a fat man. Said he never could get a girlfriend on his own, due to his excessive weight. So, since I loved him anyway, I wanted to "please" him, sexually, right? Wow, was his non-reaction a surprise!

I have never figured it out. Either:

a. He has an autism spectrum disorder with neuronal deficits in mirroring and showing facial emotions to a close intimate partner (but not to OTHERS? This doesn't add up...)

b. He was so severely sexually abused by his family (especially his mother) that any "family feeling" he had for "me and him" was an instant INCEST trigger (I thought that for a long time).

c. I just wasn't "all that" and was a disappointment to his Narcissistic view of himself somehow, as he told me he had hoped marriage would magically cure his prostitute problem.....

DevastatedDee posted 4/11/2019 22:43 PM

c. I just wasn't "all that" and was a disappointment to his Narcissistic view of himself somehow, as he told me he had hoped marriage would magically cure his prostitute problem.....

Superesse, I'm going to take a moment and hate your WH with a raging ferocity.

Fuck him.

You were not a tool for his betterment. You were and are a person in your own right. You aren't an object. Furthermore, pretty much all men who aren't profoundly fucked up would be so turned on by their wife greeting them naked at the door. If he thinks that paying someone to pretend to want him is better than being wanted...EW. And gross. And boy, is that not a profoundly disturbed mindset? It's truly pathetic.

Superesse posted 4/11/2019 23:26 PM

D.Dee, loved everything you expressed, WhooHoo!

Every sentence you wrote rang true for me, but I just want to say here how good it feels, to hear that any normal male would have been turned on...after all, I chose to wait 4 years to share myself sexually with him, before we married; all during that time, he never stopped pursuing me...it's not like he didn't understand how special sex was for me, to be sharing with him, regardless of his less-than-ideal bod, so to see how his eyes remained focused and unsmiling on my face, as he didn't want to "see" my naked body...I always thought it was...weird.

Hell, after D-Day 1 - when I was desperate for a reality check - I told this story to my father (mother died 11 years before), and he reacted pretty much the same as you just did: FTG!

What is wrong with these guys?

DevastatedDee posted 4/12/2019 06:24 AM

I don't know what insanity is in their brains, but it is of a pathetic variety. I remember (blazing red flag) my WH being really drunk one night not long after we got married saying "What happened to you? You used to be so sexy". He blanched immediately and apologized and his brother looked at him like he had lost his damned mind. The fact that his brother is a narcissistic asshole and even HE called him out on this should have horrified him. That stays in my brain and screws with me. What had "happened" to me had also happened to him. We had both gained about 20lbs within the previous 2 years. But did he with his beer gut take a moment to think that maybe I wasn't saying anything about that and that he could STFU? No. Guess not. He was clearly comparing me to porn stars and though he denied it starting that early, likely prostitutes too. Did my 42-year-old self compare to women in their 20s who made a living off their bodies? No, of course not. Ridiculous to hold me to that standard. After all, I certainly didn't hold his penis size to that standard, fortunately for him.

I am at the point where it doesn't matter so much why they are like that, just that they ARE like that. "Why" is not my problem. He was not entitled to my compassion for him hurting me.

ashestophoenix posted 4/12/2019 06:35 AM

DevastatedDee, that was great! It just shows me how distorted my thinking got by living for decades with my SAH that I forgot that yes, most men would be turned on by their wives greeting them without clothes. Mine wouldn't have been either. Jeez! It is critical for us to really know: THIS IS NOT ABOUT US. It's so very hard for me not to feel inadequate, ugly, undesirable. My husband gave me those messages and sadly, I took them in. It's truly abuse.

He did these things for a couple of reasons. He truly thought I was unattractive compared to his porn images and his fantasy life. He wanted to protect his addiction and to keep me at arms length. He is terrified of real intimacy with a real woman. And because he is profoundly immature, he had to blame me for everything. It's toxic. I can see this clearly now. I didn't see it clearly over the years. And it's hard and painful work to accept what happened and to shed myself of all those horrible messages of his that I took in and started to believe.

Superesse, the men's group who got on my husband is not a 12-step. It's a men's group working on men's maturity. It's been a very important piece of his recovery work. He was so focused on the world of women and girls in order to feel good about himself as a man, when he needed to be focused on the world of men to learn how to grow up and be an adult man. He was clueless about this.

I think we have every right to be enraged at our partners for their abuse. I think we have every right to grieve for our losses.

What is wrong with these guys?

They're addicts.
They're profoundly immature.
They're monstrously selfish.
They fear intimacy.

Further, they may be suffering from unidentified trauma or undiagnosed mental illness.

The awareness of how deeply screwed up they are, it's mind blowing.

ashestophoenix

[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 6:37 AM, April 12th (Friday)]

DevastatedDee posted 4/12/2019 08:45 AM

Ashestophoenix, you are right on. It IS abuse. It's completely unacceptable and not one bit of it is on us. Not one bit. I'm still appalled and outraged at this crap. I know that I'm not unattractive and I know that I'm kinda awesome in bed. I know these things, but at a certain point I started feeling inadequate and old and worthless sexually. He hit me right where it hurts when the discarding began. I even got turned down for blowjobs. What? And not to be too TMI, but that is my best thing. I have (pun not intended) blown guys minds with those. It's one of my favorite things. What man turns down a blowjob, particularly from someone who loves giving them and is skilled at it? What man has a wife who loves to give him oral and doesn't appreciate that? I started thinking that I guess I wasn't all that good. Maybe I sucked at (pun intended) the thing I thought I was best at. How unappealing was I to get turned down for a BJ? I mean, seriously. All of that sounds kind of crass, but it's not meant to be. It's just that I get it, how the sexual rejection affects us. I truly thought I was a gift as a wife in this area and if I couldn't even be good enough in that area, what chance did I have in any other areas? Since leaving my WH, I have reaffirmed that I'm not sexually inadequate or unattractive, but my lord...I am still horrified that he took me down so hard psychologically and emotionally.

None of us deserved this treatment. None of the idiots we married deserved us. Yeah, boo hoo at their sad childhoods and the heavy burdens of shame, blah blah blah blah whatever. When I'm at my twice yearly cancer-causing strain of HPV checkups and I have to feel gratitude that it's HPV and not HIV, that's outrageous. Boo hoo at their sads, they could have killed us with their behavior.

Superesse posted 4/12/2019 10:31 AM

DevastatedDee, you said a mouthful (pun intended)!

It reminded me of a major reason why the betrayal he slammed me with after 4 years hurt so very badly. There have been many threads on the kinds of damage we BS suffer, but I don't think the members of this forum have often discussed the sexual shaming dished out to us by an insatiable, entitled ##ick who thinks he is a cut above...so thank you for putting words to the pain.

It's not like I didn't love sex, I think perhaps I loved it too much. By the time this man had come along in my life, men had taught me a few things about how I was being perceived, so I was wary of giving myself away again sexually, if doing so might result in the man losing interest. That had happened to me once too often, so that's why he had to wait until after marriage! I was not a virgin; if he wanted to shame me sexually, if he was all that sexually-obsessed, the time to have done that was...oh, any time during the 4 years we dated.

I also never cooked a meal for him more than a half-dozen times in that 4 years, so he couldn't have been marrying me for my culinary skills, either!

Just like you said, Dee:

"I truly thought I was a gift as a wife in this area, and if I couldn't even be good enough in that area, what chance did I have in any other area?"

I too had sexual self-confidence and thought if anything, he might have a fragile ego with that Michelin Man gut and his possibly virginal "history." (Never been with a girlfriend sexually, he deliberately misrepresented... "that he didn't have to pay cash for!" would have been more like it!) So early on, I was finding it puzzling that when he finally had a thriving sex life at home, and showed such disinterest.

I loved how you pointed out the complete abnormality of it all.

After we had been attempting R for several years, I tried that stunt again one moonlit night, and again, his face was like a stone. Acted as though I was not standing there surprising him with no clothes on. "He couldn't appreciate female nakedness," I told myself, "because he had been punished by me too harshly for his cheating ways and roving eyes"....all the bull#### we tell ourselves, to make it hurt less. But how screwed up is that?

As some men would say "I know how I would have reacted, if my wife did that..." It is important for us to remember that this kind of sick stuff they pulled was not about us, they are truly messed up at a deep brain level.

When I learned what his mother had done with him, I realized if you want a good sex life, never marry a man whose mother was incestuous with him as a child, because incest violates a hard-wired instinct: not to breed with one's own blood! See, as soon as I became his wife, I was family....and he had a long-standing guard up against a mother who desired him sexually (and still did when we married, I could see from her behavior!) She was probably a big reason why he'd left home at 18 and later moved across the ocean - to get some distance from her. In his brain, I was her, she was me....but a whore was his choice! Just too twisted for us to fix!

DevastatedDee posted 4/12/2019 11:10 AM

That is interesting, Superesse. I've noticed that a common theme whether incest or abuse is present or not is that we get turned into their mothers once married/seriously committed and then they start dating and sneaking around as if they were our teenage sons. He told me once that I was like his mom, that I'd always be there for him. I think his dumbass actually believed that I would, no matter what he did. He couldn't have gotten that from knowing me as an individual. That's not who I am at all. The only way he could have gotten that was if he started to see me as his mother. It's sick. His mom is great in a hundred different ways and if he had said that I reminded him of her because of some positive characteristic, I could have taken that as a compliment. But no...to say I was like her in the sense of her always being there to help him clean up his messes, that's waaaay off.

BTW, I'm horrified about your WH's mother. Horrified. I can only imagine how it has affected you for him to place you in that role.

whoami62 posted 4/12/2019 16:55 PM

Ugh...
I was supposed to begin with a new IC this week. I have been without my former IC for about a month now due to her sudden closure of her practice.

New IC was sick and had to postpone until next week

Besides the part of really missing her , since she was really helping me, there have been a couple of crisis in the last few weeks that have taken me down pretty hard


I am really feeling less and less hopeful that my SAWH will get the help / do the work he needs to become a safe partner for me.

I am so profoundly sad that I am being forced to live a life I don't want to live. Yes, I know that I can choose to leave him , but I do not want to to be divorced and live as a single woman.

No matter what happens , barring a miracle , I will not be happy.

My new IC is part of a practice that specializes in sex addiction , so there is a glimmer of hope there...my SAWH's IC was the one who recommended them.

SAWH says he is going to do everything possible to get the help he needs and has agreed to get on meds to control his impulses ( which is a huge thing since he doesn't think people should take most meds )

All this while carrying water for him and protecting him so that we can reconcile .
I know that once that stops, it'll be the final nail in the coffin

[This message edited by whoami62 at 4:58 PM, April 12th (Friday)]

marji posted 4/12/2019 22:26 PM

I am so profoundly sad that I am being forced to live a life I don't want to live. Yes, I know that I can choose to leave him , but I do not want to to be divorced and live as a single woman.

No matter what happens , barring a miracle , I will not be happy.


whoami -working with a good IC should help you find a way to a happier life where you will feel stronger and better able to make good choices for yourself. A good IC should be able to help you to focus on yourself and doing things for yourself. But it's a process; healing can take time but trust that you will heal and come to a better place.

[This message edited by marji at 8:53 AM, April 13th (Saturday)]

Somber posted 4/13/2019 06:06 AM

Reading these recent posts have been helpful. Some of you have really accessed the anger this brings us with such clarity. Itís helpful to read your words that so clearly explain how I feel but couldnít explain it myself. Itís not our fault, we havenít paid attention to our self worth as they have destroyed it. I am so happy to see some of you taking that self worth back!!

I avoid anger and tend to avoid any conflict. That is why I feel stuck. My WH and I really need to separate but I just haven't enforced it yet...

To all, what have you found most helpful in your recovery?
This site? IC? Sanon group? Recovery nation?

Somber posted 4/13/2019 06:41 AM

Marji,

No matter what happens , barring a miracle , I will not be happy

This breaks my heart, I understand the feeling and empathize with you. Whether you stay or leave, the miracle must be rediscovering your self worth and self love. I just read an article about 5 ways to rediscover ourselves:

1. Think about what makes you happy.
This wonít be our WHís but something just for us. Perhaps gardening which is a great spring activity. Baths, walking, reading, favourite snack Or spending time with a best friend or child. Think about one thing and be sure to do it often.

2. Stop telling lies about yourself
I think we all have started to believe the lies about ourselves. We have been emotionally abused and led to think so much less of ourselves. None of it is true, we have value and amazing things about each of us. We have all lied about our feelings, I am sure about that one! We lie that we are fine to others but truthfully we are all struggling. The more we tell the truth to ourselves (even an IC, a friend, a SI thread) the more truth we live.

3. Keep a journal
This helps unload those heavy truths and feelings. It can also help locate our problem areas that need to be worked on and show us patterns in our behaviour. Set aside free time, 15 minutes, and write down everything you are feeling without censoring!! Frequently thought and feelings that we have suppressed will come up. If your worried that someone will find it, shred it then! The point is to get those thoughts and feelings out. Keeping it is optional.

4. Be aware of your own feelings
Itís become easy to worry about everyone elseís feelings and ignore our own. Itís easy to get caught up in the whirlwind of our life and focus on doing but not being. Ask yourself many times throughout the day: How am I feeling? Identify the emotion and score that feeling on a scale of 0-5. It helps us identify and get back in touch with our inner selves.

5. Try doing what you fear
Step outside of that comfort zone, even if it is a small step. Do it more and more and you will build more and more confidence in yourself. We will never fully discover ourselves and the amazing abilities we have if we donít take risks...big or small. We will learn that failure wonít break us!

((((All of you))))

Lionne posted 4/13/2019 07:47 AM

Somber, that's very well said. And with very few additions, needs to go on our first page resource area. May I do that?

ashestophoenix posted 4/13/2019 07:54 AM

Oh, marji, my heart breaks for you. I send my love and virtual embrace. You are so loving, kind, giving and wise.

I realize that what gets in the way of my happiness is not one thing. The most significant issue I have is grief. The awareness of my losses and with our age, the realization that we will never get the time back. This grief can still overwhelm me. Then there is the damage to my self esteem. I'm still working on that, and improving, but it takes time. Then there is the recovery from the effects of trauma: the damage not only to my self esteem and well being, but to my body and health. Focusing on emotional and physical self care is important, but that takes time as well. I also have to dig out of the isolation I created when I was overcome with the shock, fear and shame of the ongoing discoveries of my SAH"s secret life. All of these issues interact and can interfere with my living my life as fully as possible.

There's a message a woman our age gave me. She said, "say to yourself every day 'I am going to live the best life I can.' Even say it once an hour." I'm trying that.

With compassion,
ashestophoenix

[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 8:02 AM, April 13th (Saturday)]

ashestophoenix posted 4/13/2019 08:01 AM

Somber, all sorts of things have been important to my healing. My awareness is that I needed lots and lots of healing resources.

Recovery Nation is excellent for understanding what we are facing. The former addict who wrote the lessons on the site is an amazingly compassionate and honest man. Sadly, he died of cancer but his lessons are still available. I learned more about what was going on with my addicted husband and what to look for to understand sincere recovery from his work. There is a forum there as well which is helpful. It's not as completely open as the one here on SI, but it's very supportive.

SI has been critical for me to know I am not alone. I can be heard and understood and it's safe. I've not been shamed here. (I have been shamed on other site forums so discovering SI and this particular forum was a huge gift).

My counseling with a trauma therapist has been life saving for me.

Reading as much as I could about the addiction, about recovered addicts, and about partners has been helpful. Also reading about identifying emotional abuse and healing from that has been helpful.

Spending time with my dogs is healing!

Exercise is helpful as is eating right.

I needed/need all of this to help me find myself again, to feel good about myself, to find a new way forward.

ashestophoenix

sami1234 posted 4/13/2019 08:15 AM

No matter what happens , barring a miracle , I will not be happy

This makes me sad too. But guess what, you are going to have a miracle because you are going to bring it on! We all can. I refuse to allow this to make my life unhappy. I told my WH I refuse to let him steal my happiness or joy, I won't give him that. I will find joy in spite of him no matter if we stay together or not. I love the ideas Somber has put forth and thank you for that! Sometimes I think I/we think too much. I try to take mini-vacations from all of this and just allow myself to "be." This means not ruminating and often, not even being on SI. Those are times that I can find happiness. SI has its place, but allowing ourselves a break from all this madness, I believe, is healthy in its own right. So I post here, get it all out, then try to move on with my day.

I have my HPV biopsy this coming week. Since I got the positive HPV test I haven't allowed him to touch me. I don't know how I can let him touch me now. It's kind of a new low. I've triggered back on my past sexual abuse, rape and the infidelity and honestly, I've decided that sex has not been my friend. Even though I physically enjoy it, emotionally I do not anymore so I wonder if it is worth it. And yes, I am thinking too much!

I've been sexually betrayed so many times and now I don't know if it is possible, even in the best of worlds, for my WH and I (or anyone in that matter) to have a healthy sex life. I wonder if I am crazy, but I realize that all of this has been so very hurtful, how can I expect to feel normal? I wonder if I can get past this now, I really do. It's definitely a new hurdle. He's being supportive but, I just don't know. Think we may need more counseling or maybe this is something I just can't do. I haven't told him this, but considering that I should do so soon. That's more honesty than he ever offered me but I am not going to use his old broken moral compass.

DevastedDee: I just read about your positive HPV...sorry to hear that and I think it really sucks that we can get through all the STD testing to find this thing popping up years later as part of the gift that keeps on giving. Yes, and I too think...hey, at least it's not HIV and then I think, why do we minimize what they do to us?

whoami62 posted 4/13/2019 08:30 AM

Thank you all for the support...this isn't an easy journey

I was lucky to have a great IC , but lost her very suddenly. I was making progress , feeling stronger and concentrating on myself and making positive changes

I didn't realize how fragile it was until the support was suddenly gone.

I am hopeful that my new IC will be a good fit for me and I think that my SAWH will be involved in this too.

I wish I had the opportunity to see my daughters more often , but they all live far away.
I do have a concert date with one of my daughters in June to one of my favorite bands...she got the tickets for me as a birthday gift and I know she put a big effort into getting them , so I have that to look forward to

I don't have any close friends , which is embarassing to admit to. This is something I was hoping to change and want to work on with IC , but that is not my main focus.

I was in a brain haze for days this week , I think from taking a prescribed pain killer post dental procedure. It didn't leave my system for days !

But today I am hoping to take my bike out for a 10 mile ride once the rain passes


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