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Betrayed Womenz Thread

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Tallgirl posted 8/19/2019 13:30 PM

Wow Scooby. I dream of losing 1.

I like Chaosí interpretation!

HeHadADoubleLife posted 8/19/2019 13:40 PM

If Scooby is saying what I think she's saying, she lost her husband, thereby losing about 19 stone.

But agreed, Chaos' version is better

Scoobydoo posted 8/19/2019 13:51 PM

Haha, Love your way of thinking Chaos,

& yes you would be very correct I've ditched the chains...
I'm currently flexing my muscles

Scoobydoo posted 8/19/2019 13:57 PM

Chaos,

I have now updated my Signature

Chaos posted 8/19/2019 14:19 PM

Love the updated signature!

DevastatedDee posted 8/19/2019 14:55 PM

Congrats, Scooby!! You badass!

HeHadADoubleLife posted 8/19/2019 14:56 PM

And on a tangent can we call your STBXH Scooby-Dum
Yassss! Chaos for the win

Scooby, Speed, JS, welcome to our little corner!

I haven't posted here in a bit, but I read every single one

There's a lot to respond to since I last wrote, so here it goes.

Re: divorce being just as bad, I concur with SMS, Fuck. That. Shit.

re: thinking about whacking our WSs, I'm no longer with psycho meth head XH, but I did have a dream the other night where I basically relived DDay except instead of being the calm rational one in front of the kids, I lost it and beat him up with my lacrosse stick. I'm not even with him anymore and I still had that dream. Applause for those in R for not actually losing it on your WS every day, your self control is awesome.

Re: Wayward forum. I agree with you JS, too many AYFKM moments so I only venture in there once every few days or so, typically if the subject of a post that pops up there is intriguing.

Good on you Scooby for your solo trip! I had been contemplating one to Hawaii - a place XH and I have been several times - as a way of reclaiming it. I'm thinking it would be better to go somewhere we've never been before so I don't trigger super hard. I have a few places on my bucket list: Italy, for museums/culture and PASTA! Africa for a safari and then to swing up to Egypt for the pyramids. Bali because, well, Bali. But I feel like I don't want to experience those things alone, if I'm going to get out of my introvert bubble, I really prefer experiencing things with others who I care about. Maybe we need a Betrayed Womenz trip??

Tallgirl, you're always out doing so many fun things. As a card carrying member of Introverts Anonymous, I need to force myself to get out more. I will think of you as my inspiration.

TX, I hope that neurofeedback helps you. This all just sucks so much.

Ok, the main thing I've been wanting to respond to for a few days but haven't because I wanted to gather my thoughts - the need to give positive reinforcement to the WS.

I have a really hard time with the praise-giving too. In re: all of his compulsive masturbation issues, I could tell XH wanted it (the praise for not doing it) and so eventually after I passed my bitter phase, I started to give it. But ultimately I think it's what doomed us in the long run, because he never learned how to self regulate.

I have to concur with Coco, I don't know if you can truly have R if the BS is putting in the work by giving them praise for showing common decency. Aren't those the ego kibbles that they were seeking with their A? Isn't the point of the work for them to figure out how to get self esteem from within themselves? Of course it's better for them to seek it from within the marriage than to seek it elsewhere, but ultimately they're still not learning how to self soothe, which means they're still acting in ways that are antithetical to true healing.

Here's how I view it, I wish I could draw it out, but I'll type it

Above and Beyond Acts
- things done for other people that are above their basic level of responsibility
_________________________________________________________________________
Adult Competencies
- basic responsibilities that all adults should know how to do for themselves, without hurting others, or without impeding others' abilities to help themselves
_________________________________________________________________________
Everything Else That Doesn't Meet The Above Standards
- literally, EVERYTHING.

I think we can all agree there is a basic level of competency at "adulting" that we should be able to expect from our spouses. Paying your bills, knowing how to get yourself from point A to point B, holding down a job (SAHP if this is agreed upon as well), basic hygiene, knowing how to prepare a meal for yourself (doesn't have to be a five star meal, it can be microwaved, or even ordered in), understanding the concepts of personal property, privacy, consent, etc. Then once kids are involved, we should be allowed to expect that our spouse will do everything in their power to care for and protect those children. But the gist is, that this person should know how to function as an adult human being, and be able to take on those responsibilities without interfering in or negatively affecting the lives of other human beings, especially their spouses and children.

Now, I think many of us were misguided in assuming that our WSs had all of these adult characteristics when they obviously didn't. One of those very important characteristics in a monogamous couple is not putting their genitals (or in cases of EA, their emotions) where they don't belong, and obviously that's the reason why we're all here. But the fact of the matter is, they absolutely SHOULD have these adult capabilities. So it's not our fault when they don't, and it's not our responsibility to get them up to speed.

Each person's basic responsibility is to take care of themselves. Anything they do for another adult person, should be out of the goodness of their hearts, and if it is truly selfless, these acts don't require any kind of praise. But if you're a good person on the receiving end, more then likely you will feel that since they went above and beyond, no matter how small, that deserves praise/compliments. I am perfectly capable of making my own dinner, so when he cooked for me, he got a kiss and a thank you. Or bought me a candy bar when he stopped at the pharmacy on the way home. Or filled up my gas tank so I didn't have to.

But he is an adult who is capable of filling his own gas tank, getting himself to work on time, providing a home, groceries, clothing for his kids, and - shocker! - not putting his penis in someone else's vagina, so he doesn't get brownie points for doing those things. I mean sometimes I feel like they expect a raunchy Mad Men scene when they come home - home cooked meal on the table, and a wife on her knees at the door, just waiting to give her husband a blow job for being such a great provider. How 'bout, no! I don't get an orgasm every time I remembered to book the girls' dentist appointment or sports physical, nor do I expect one. Because those are part of my responsibilities as a functioning adult who contributes to our PARTNERSHIP.

Let's take Chaos' example of shampooing the carpets. You and your husband both share the home, so it's technically equally each of your responsibility to keep the carpets clean. So when you take the initiative and clean them, that deserves his gratitude, even just a small thank you like you mentioned, because technically it's both of your responsibility to take care of, and you unilaterally handled it. But let's say your XH has a habit of spilling wine on said carpet and not cleaning it up. You get into many arguments over this, and he finally starts cleaning up after himself when he spills. Does he deserve praise for this? IMO, hell no. Because he is basically just rising to the base level standard of common decency. If you make the mess, you clean the mess, plain and simple. I mean this is the type of shit we teach toddlers in pre-school.

I can apply this to much more egregious acts on my XH's part. Does he deserve praise when he goes for a whole two days without screaming at me and his daughters when he can't find his keys? Nope. Does he deserve a gold star for managing not to sneak into my underwear drawer for a whole week? Hell to the Mother. Fucking. No.

I understand the concept of positive reinforcement, I really do. But that's what you do when you are teaching a child how to do something. Or even a pet. It is not our responsibility to teach another adult how to be an adult. It is their responsibility to positively reinforce it FOR THEMSELVES.

If he went a week without touching my underwear, he could go buy himself a new pair of surf trunks. If he went a day without yelling, he should order some guitar stuff on Amazon as a reward. But praise from me? Who am I married to, a grown-ass man? Or a petulant child who has learned he gets a treat every time he acts normally, AFTER he has already thrown a temper tantrum?

Last week IC asked me to make lists of my needs in a relationship vs. my wants, and then we went over them to discuss whether I had adequately expressed those needs and wants in my relationship with XH.

So we're going through the lists, and we get to this need: "I need whoever I'm in a relationship with to NOT masturbate with my underwear." Then the follow up question is, "How did you state that need in your relationship." And we both just burst out laughing, because how in the hell would you even know that is a need you have to express? It's just so far outside the realm of common decency, I never thought I needed to say that! I'm sure Shannan Watts never felt the need to tell her husband to please not murder her and her children. Because these are basic tenets of human decency that normal people should already know!

I think that's where many of us are. We didn't feel like we had to express these needs, because they felt like they should be a given. Well, we're all learning that humans do all sorts of crazy fucked up shit to each other, and apparently nothing is a given.

I laugh when I think about the kinds of conversations I'm going to have to have with future potential partners:

Soooo, you're not going to steal my underwear to masturbate with are you? Oh, and also, just one more thing, you don't hide dildos around your house, do you? Oops I forgot, you don't put on cock rings that are too small and then leave them on for days and refuse to go to the hospital, right? Sorry, last thing I swear, you don't go hunting for the feel-goods by putting your penis in other people's vaginas whenever you have the boo-hoos about how hard and stressful your life is, right?

And yes, I'm going to have to get that specific. Because these are new "needs" that I never knew I had to express.

For those of us BWz who are in R, I hope your spouses truly "get it" and stop needing special treatment for acting like decent fucking human beings. For those of us who have dumped them or been left by them, let's look for partners who are real adults, not children in adult-looking bodies with adult-sized bank accounts. And for all of us, let's work on knowing how awesome we are, so that we never, ever accept this bullshit they fed us ever again.

What TX said. This deserves a mic drop:

I just cannot let WH's affair take the rest of my life away from me. I want and deserve to enjoy my kids, my family, my friends and my life. Whether I am with him or not!

cocoplus5nuts posted 8/19/2019 15:33 PM

Very well said, HHADL!

My fch does really get it. He is really remorseful. I never gave him those kinds of idiotic praises. I don't expect them because I don't need them. I actually got mad when my fch came home from a work trip and thanked me for cleaning the house. I was like, "I didn't do it for you, asshole! I did it because I was tired of looking at a dirty floor." If you feel the need to say something, say, "The house looks nice." I'm fine with that, but I don't need to hear it.

believe he did this because it made HIM look good. It

That's what I was thinking. They do that to make themselves look good. They want everyone to think they have the perfect life. My fch was so caught up in that type of thinking that he refused to talk to anyone healthy about his M issues. He said he didn't want to embarrass me. I think he didn't want to embarrass himself.

He once told me that he was jealous of the way I could talk to my dad. He didn't have anyone like that he could talk to. I told h I'll m to talk to his dad. He seemed like the kind of guy who would listen. My fch was too afraid that his dad would be disappointed, so he didn't talk to anyone.

Tallgirl posted 8/19/2019 16:14 PM

Haha. Ok. I was stuck on the British weight measurement and worried about your health. Even thought my thatís a whole person. . Some days for a smart girl, I ainít.

Went back to check your thread. Lots has happened . Good for you!

Change is tough eh. It keeps hitting in waves.

I have been waiting 30 minutes to pick up my kid from Work

Anger management is no longer a strength

DevastatedDee posted 8/19/2019 16:48 PM

But the fact of the matter is, they absolutely SHOULD have these adult capabilities. So it's not our fault when they don't, and it's not our responsibility to get them up to speed.

Girl PREACH THIS SHIT. OMG. I could not possibly mentally high-five you more.

And yes, you had me laughing...and not quite laughing...I am actually going to be asking future men whether or not they have ever used the services of a prostitute. You know, I swear that I'm not remotely a prude. FFS my best male friend is in a poly relationship and he and I discuss that openly and I'm not remotely weirded out by sexual stuff and certainly have plenty of experience but....I always thought men who used prostitutes were just nasty.

Like nasty in a way in which I'd never want to be involved with, you know? Gross. Low-class whatever their bank account says. Not someone who views women in a way that I'd like my SO to view women. You know?

Even before all this bullshit with my WH, that was just a no-no for me with guys. It was "ew". But, now I'll have to find a way to ask the question, but I expect the guy would lie.

humantrampoline posted 8/20/2019 06:00 AM

I'm not sure if I belong over here or not. I read posts here and appreciate the encouraging atmosphere. I especially like to hear about all the things the strong women here are doing to move on with their lives.

Perhaps I should just get off SI altogether. The threads on the Wayward side right now are really messing with my head. I feel so sad.

Chaos posted 8/20/2019 06:36 AM

That Wayward Forum went sideways in a New York Minute didn't it?

And...I'm following it like a Mexican Soap Opera. It has become my guilty pleasure how pathetic is that?!?!

humantrampoline posted 8/20/2019 07:05 AM

[Bold]Chaos,

It is very soap opera now. I find myself thinking about the posts randomly during the day - trying to understand the thought processes or logic of the person.

It also makes me sad, but I don't know why. Maybe I can't detach my personal feelings or empathy. Maybe I think the people there aren't helping each other or themselves. That's probably because it's not helping me though.

Chaos posted 8/20/2019 07:12 AM

Yes. And that combined with so many stories of relapsed WS after years! Has got me in a bad place. OK - not bad. But a very detached place. Perhaps a disassociated one.

I know it is against guidelines to cross threads. BUT I am seeing a rush of those who have anvils being thrown at them and just aren't getting it.

In general - the entitled to my fun - it's not my fault - why don't they just shut up and forgive me - mindset is off the hook.

Yet...I follow. Because maybe - I tell myself - maybe if I tap into this mindset I can understand what happened to me and why.

I'm on a quest to understand the unfathomable. All the while trying not to project this onto my own future.

humantrampoline posted 8/20/2019 07:55 AM

Yes, I'm trying to understand my own world and what happened. But I find my eyes filled with tears and still cycling through the same thoughts. - What? I just don't understand. How could...? Why would...? I just don't understand.

I should aim for acceptance instead. It is. It was. They are. They were. Buddhism teachings help more than this.

Also struggling with not projecting into the future - persevering with my own values and faith.

Thank you for helping me think through this Chaos. Time for work.

cocoplus5nuts posted 8/20/2019 08:25 AM

Trying to understand the wayward mind is futile.it will never be understandable under any circumstances.

I think most waywards are too selfish to really understand what they've done to their partners and truly change. Most people are like that. They may sincerely feel bad about what happened, but they won't take full responsibility for their actions.

My fch used to say, "the affair." I got so pissed at that. He sounded so detached from it, like he wasn't associated with it. I yelled, "It's not "the affair"! You cheated! You did this!" That's one reason I prefer to say, "cheated, cheat, cheater," rather than, "affair, or wayward."

I like to read the drama. Maybe I'll have another peak.

I'm going nuts over this DV stuff. Women are actually excusing DV against a CW because she cheated. WTF?! The particulars of that sitch may not be clear. However, there is never an excuse for DV! Gah!

Scoobydoo posted 8/20/2019 08:40 AM

Thank you ladies,
yep lots of waves, its all good, I'm a firm believer in whichever path I take now I'm meant to be on, be it bumpy or smooth they'l be No Regrets.

I decided to stay away from a couple of the Wayward posts, could feel myself getting bloody angry wanting to lash out,
Also I don't want to appear bitter & angry at this stage.

Thank you HHADL,
Its good to be here,
you made me smile & lol reading your whole post :)
So I guess my future conversations will be along the lines of...have you ever slept with someone the same age or younger than your daughter?
if so kindly move on, I've had my fair share of life with a 'Daddy'
FFS, I cant wait for that convo...


Scoobydoo posted 8/20/2019 09:43 AM

Coco,
Whatís DV? Sorry Iím confused 🤷‍♀️

JSS1227 posted 8/20/2019 10:48 AM

Great post, HHADL!

Scooby, DV= domestic violence.

In general - the entitled to my fun - it's not my fault - why don't they just shut up and forgive me - mindset is off the hook.

Yet...I follow. Because maybe - I tell myself - maybe if I tap into this mindset I can understand what happened to me and why.

I'm on a quest to understand the unfathomable. All the while trying not to project this onto my own future.

This is why I read there as well Chaos...although I donít think it will ever truly make sense to me.

I have noticed some tensions growing and threads going sideways quickly lately. One thought I had while reading a few threads yesterday...Of course there are vent threads here on SI...weíre all here for the same very traumatic and life changing reason. It should come as a surprise to no one that there will be some name calling, anger, venting. So when I see things like POSOM, POSOW, douche bag, whore, etc, itís not shocking or offensive. We have a name for WHís OW in my house, and it certainly isnít complimentary. Sheís definitely deserving of any derogatory name I choose to use that day. And WH isnít exempt, iíve called him plenty of names as well. But in reference to SI threads.. Is it really all that shocking to CSís that BSís sometimes feel the need to use a derogatory term for them? I joined SI in March, and Iíve seen plenty of BW vent threads and BH vent threads, in which there is name calling...itís to be expected, IMO. And Iíve seen WW become offended by this, and then state all the reasons they donít deserve to be called these names. But I donít think Iíve ever seen a WH go into a BH thread and say they donít deserve to be called a POSOM, or douche bag, etc. Has anyone else noticed this?

Iím feeling emotional today ladies...my oldest is leaving for college today 😭 Iíve already lost it quite a few times. Eyes are so puffy!! Iím not ready.

Chaos posted 8/20/2019 11:14 AM

I have a nickname for AP. Donut Whore. I've only recently begun using it on SI. In one of her risque photos to WH she put a donut on her boob. That's right. A DONUT on her BOOB. I haven't eaten a donut in 2 years. Damn her for destroying donuts!

Now - that being said, I am mindful of my threads. OR try to be anyway. While I am more forthcoming with slang names in General and JFO and ICR, I am more neutral in Reconciliation [as name calling is not beneficial in there] and definitely use AP only in Wayward [as it is their forum]

And I saw that on the one thread. DV is NEVER OK. I did comment on that one [and hadn't realized that BS was also posting] and said the WS did deserve the verbal tirade from BS on DDay [goodness knows I had one myself] BUT I did not [nor do I ever] condone physical violence.

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