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Emotionless Infidelity Part 4

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Rideitout posted 6/28/2019 05:35 AM

Is that perhaps why it's relatively common for many males to consider "paying" a woman to touch, what they themselves handle so often, every day? (A simple yes or no response would probably satisfy sensibilities here....)

No. But I can't leave it just that, so I want to explain why I give that response. The thought of getting naked and paying a woman to touch me doesn't seem "OK" or "normal" or "acceptable because it's not inside my body". It seems crazy to me to think of being naked with and masturbated by a complete stranger, not at all "well, just taking a wizz here". But, and like always, I'm going to be completely forthright with you, it seems "crazy" and "unacceptable" but at the same time it's very appealing. Not because it's "normal" or "OK to do" though, in fact, perhaps somewhat because it's NOT OK at all. But the thought of meeting an attractive woman and being naked/sexual 5 minutes after a little more than a "Hello" from both sides is very sexually exciting to me. Yes, intellectually I know "Your paying for this" and "She's not enjoying it, it's her job" but that doesn't stop the mental processes that say "This woman is so into you that she can't keep her hands to herself". I guess the best way to describe it, if you're at all into bedroom role play, I know my wife isn't a school teacher. I know she doesn't wear 2" skirts to work. But, if she dresses that way before bed, the eroticism of the outfit totally overtakes the rational part of my brain that says "it's just a costume RIO".

That was a long answer to your question, but I felt it required the explanation. Even in the cultures where this is very, very common, it certainly seems like everyone is pretty clear on "this is wrong". It's not a confusion of "I touch myself there, why not her", it's a decision "this is wrong, but I enjoy it enough to do it anyway". I'd liken it more to having another drink when you're already too drunk, you know you shouldn't, but do anyway.

We agreed early on in accountability that if he visited any of those websites, he would tell me, tell the counselor, and tell his accountability partner. None of that has happened until I just found it.

And that's completely unacceptable. I add this because it may seem that I'm trying to justify this behavior in men. I'm not, not at all. What I am trying to do is prevent the "he's sick" or "something is wrong with him" answer that so often associates with this topic. He's not sick, he's just an asshole, just like every other cheating spouse. And no, nothing in particular is wrong with him beyond what's wrong with every WS, again, refer to "just an asshole". I find this behavior "less awful" than a "standard A"; if my WW's AP had just "gone to a pro" he wouldn't have been spending the time to talk my wife into a "freebie". Yes, it would be even better if he hadn't cheated at all, immeasurably better. But, if he was bound and determined to do it, I'd much prefer they (any WS) do it with a professional so at least there's only 1 BS, not 2 (or more, my WW's AP has caused quite a few BH's in his day, and will likely cause more before he's done).

ElizabethC posted 6/28/2019 08:05 AM

I find this behavior "less awful" than a "standard A"; if my WW's AP had just "gone to a pro" he wouldn't have been spending the time to talk my wife into a "freebie". Yes, it would be even better if he hadn't cheated at all, immeasurably better. But, if he was bound and determined to do it, I'd much prefer they (any WS) do it with a professional so at least there's only 1 BS, not 2 (or more, my WW's AP has caused quite a few BH's in his day, and will likely cause more before he's done).

I understand, but partly disagree. I don't know your story, and a Don Juan type who goes around seducing women is terrible. But the women still have a choice. Infidelity is infidelity, betrayal is betrayal, regardless of whether there's "another person." I ask myself why sex with me is so meaningless that he can just go get an orgasm with anybody, whether he cares anything about them or not. Sure, I suppose from your point of view at least there isn't another family also experiencing the damage due to my husband's actions, but it doesn't make it less terrible for me.

That said, I agree with you - I don't believe my husband has a sex addiction, or that it explains why he does (did) this. ETA: I certainly wouldn't argue that SA doesn't exist though.

[This message edited by ElizabethC at 9:21 AM, June 28th (Friday)]

marji posted 6/28/2019 13:45 PM

RIO Just want to thank you for adding your thoughts here. By me your input is always appreciated.

As usual your posts are interesting and thought provoking (does one always mean the other?)And they're well written to boot; lively, informative straight to the point but always well intentioned and kindly. At least that's how they seem to me.

So thanks for your input on what sometimes strikes me as an absurd topic; sometimes your comments make me laugh and not sure unless it's that you manage to bring out the irony of it all.

Falling posted 6/28/2019 14:05 PM

Yes, intellectually I know "Your paying for this" and "She's not enjoying it, it's her job" but that doesn't stop the mental processes that say "This woman is so into you that she can't keep her hands to herself".

My mind is literally blown. You seem like a sane, intelligent man RIO but surely you can see the madness in this?

I mean maybe that's how it has to be, for a man to pay for sex. Because if you retain in your mind that the woman does not WANT to have sex with you, that is surely not a turn-on at all. But its just so dumb!!! I mean, she's not acting all enthusiastic because she thinks you're so hot. She's not making all the right noises because you're so good in bed. Its her JOB. She did it 20 minutes ago with the ugly, smelly, sweaty fat guy before you. And if you didn't believe those things you wouldn't go back. How pathetic that so many men apparently do believe it.

Elizabeth the thing is that often for men, whether it's with a wife or a hooker or whoever, sex is just sex. So whilst sex with you I'm sure wasn't meaningless to him (although even in long relationships its not a lovey dovey thing every time is it, sometimes it's just a momentary need/desire), sex with other people most likely was completely meaningless.

Perdita1 you write so many things that I could've written myself. I think the reason I hold on to so much anger is because it's a form of consequence for him. If I forgive him, then what?

On the one hand I am so glad to have found this place where there are people who have been through the same thing. A place where I'm not judged on whichever decisions I make because you all get it. On the other hand, given that there are so many raw, negative emotions being shared here, reading this thread often trudges up feelings and doubts that I've been trying to move past and puts be back on a downer. Hence why I've only been checking in very rarely.

Falling posted 6/28/2019 14:13 PM

For whoever asked (i'm so sorry was it you shocked?) about those things on the iphone. I'm sure I read them on here somewhere but...

Settings/Battery, then scroll down you can see their app activity. If its an app thats been deleted I think it'll say.

Settings/Privacy/Analytics/Analytics Data, this is basically a list of links related to whats been done on your phone. Even on your own phone if you scroll through you would probably see a lot and not know what it is. But it might be you see something obviously untoward, and it has dates. This is how i found out my husband had been on Tinder and when!

Rideitout posted 7/1/2019 05:52 AM

Elizabeth the thing is that often for men, whether it's with a wife or a hooker or whoever, sex is just sex. So whilst sex with you I'm sure wasn't meaningless to him (although even in long relationships its not a lovey dovey thing every time is it, sometimes it's just a momentary need/desire), sex with other people most likely was completely meaningless.

I think the best way I can explain this to people who don't feel the same about sex is with an analogy about food. Now, I know, it's flawed, food is need, you'll die if you don't get it, but, stay with me, because "hunger" is good proxy for sex (speaking personally). Sometimes, food is just something to kill the hunger. It's a burger at a fast food joint. Might taste good, but the goal isn't really taste, ambiance, great service, or anything other than "make the hunger go away". In fact, the food might actually be bad for you, make you feel crappy afterwards, and make you regret ever eating it when you go to the bathroom later (Taco Bell, here's looking at you), but, you still eat it because you're hungry.

Sometimes food is much more. It's a romantic dinner cooked by your spouse. It's a 5 star place with the best service and really exotic ingredients. It's a dinner looking over the beach in Hawaii. Yes, there's food there, and yes, the desire for food is still served by the meal, but the meal itself isn't really the "only thing" your after, it's the whole package you want. Take that great food from the place in Hawaii with your wife, put it in a plastic box and eat it on your way home from work in rush hour traffic and it's lost everything that made that meal great. You might still enjoy it, you might even enjoy it more if you're really hungry eating it in rush hour traffic, but it's lost everything that made that particular dish and meal "special".

Almost all the women I've ever slept with fall into the "good meal in traffic" category. I was hungry, there was food, maybe even good food available and I ate it. Enjoyed it. But it was just to fill a "need", not because I really wanted "great food", I just wanted something to eat. In fact, as a younger man, I avoided "great food" because it was too hard to get a reservation and too expensive. I just wanted a quick bite, something to enjoy "enough" and then move on with my day. And that, IMHO, is the way that a lot of men (certainly the ones I know IRL) see their AP's. They are the fast food. And yes, it's meaningless to them in a lot of cases (again, IRL, almost all of them). But the analogy holds here too, if you're an employee at MCD, do you get upset that people seem to run in, eat as fast as they can then blow right out of there when they are done instead of savoring and enjoying the meal? Well, maybe some do, but, if they do, they are missing the appeal of "fast food". And, if you look at what I said above, how much of that applies to your typical male A? "as fast as they can then blow right out".. Sound familiar? Because it's the same thing that men do in a lot of affairs.

It doesn't mean that all food is meaningless to someone because they go to MCD. It does mean, however, if they promised never to go there (as almost all do), and then go behind your back to do it, that it's a huge relationship problem, it is. I don't want to excuse the behavior, for those who read my posts, I almost all feel the man is "more at fault" in an A, and I think that WH's should bear the brunt of the fallout from an A because, in many cases, they are the ones who caused it to happen. However, this message is really to the BW's who are suffering on this issue. It's me returning the favor for all the WW's who help me (and other BH's) with the "it wasn't about sex" discussions around our WW's. Well, in this case, it was about sex. 4 hour old Big Mac, soggy bun with burnt fries sex. But it was about sex and it probably was (in EI's almost always, but even in your typical A) just a "fast food" desire that your WH was trying to fill. Yes, I do know that there are some "deep in love" twisted up WH's who don't know which way is up in an A, so, that person does exist, but, in my personal experience, that person is also rare.

I think I said this before, but, when I first came here and started reading, I found this thread and thought "This must be the place for BW's to talk". Which, it kind of is, but that wasn't what I was thinking. I thought that this was THE betrayed wife thread. Like, all of you were here (or almost all) because, in my eyes (incorrectly) a man having an A would always fit into "EI" (because that's all I'd ever seen IRL). I also think that a lot of men claim some "emotional attachment" to the AP when d-day hits because that's more likely to lead to R, even when it's not true. I think that "I didn't know what I wanted, I thought maybe I loved her, but never stopped loving you" goes over a LOT better to most BW's than "I was horny, she said yes". Even though the 2nd answer may (or is, in my experience) a lot closer to the truth than the first.

Falling posted 7/1/2019 07:19 AM

RIO it's funny you say that because probably most of the WH's referred to in this thread actually thought it was a plus point to point out that they never had feelings for any of the women. Probably because in a lot of these cases they were ONS or prostitutes.

Your food analogy is interesting. My WH likened the women/sex to food too. He said being with a woman is like "enjoying a nice steak". Still makes me want to puke 10 months later.

DevastatedDee posted 7/1/2019 11:25 AM

If there's a food analogy to sex in the infidelity scenario, it's more like the guy puts a drop of poison in his family's food each time he grabs that tasty cheeseburger on the way home. It's not the take-out cheeseburger all by itself. It's like the cheeseburger was important enough to drop poison in his wife and kids' meals to pay for it. So when it's a nasty cheeseburger that you got poisoned over, it's really not comforting that he wasn't in love with the drive-thru chick.

outofsorts posted 8/7/2019 22:17 PM

Ok here goes... First time telling anyone about this other than our Marriage Counselor.

My husband's birthday was February 23rd. This was a landmark birthday so I had rented a large facility, had 20 people coming for the party - some from out of town, etc. The night before the party I went to get my hair cut on the way home from work. I am walking home afterwards (ironically thinking we'll have some great birthday sex this weekend). I get to the door and my husband opens it: "we need to talk and it's bad." I, of course am thinking it's his Father's health because what else could it be. "Did you hear about the Robert Kraft scandal?" I said yes even though I only knew the headlines as I have no interest in football and who can keep the men being asshole stories straight anymore... "I am one of the other men who is going to be arrested in that scandal and I got a call from small local newspaper A that they will be publishing my name tomorrow."

Through the course of that 20 minute conversation I learn that 1.) WH had sex with a prostitute at a "massage parlor" in Florida when he was down visiting his Mom before she died and prior to that had approximately 10 hand jobs over 6 months at "massage parlors" 2.) he was going to be charged with solicitation in Florida and 3.) it was possible that everyone I knew would find out about it when the story is published. I have no words to describe the emotions so I will skip that part of the story.

I decide we will continue with the bday party the following day and hope that no one finds out about the story in small local paper A or that if they do I will beg them not to mention it at least until after the party. At this point cancelling the party feels like trying to stop a moving train and I don't have it in me.

I am up all night sobbing. The story in small local paper A comes out and it's a train wreck. But at least it's a Saturday (day of lowest readership) and I don't think many people I know read that paper. Meanwhile larger local paper B calls and says wh's name will be published tomorrow in the Sunday paper and at this point I just want to get through the party before everyone finds out.

The party is hell but miraculously noone knows about the story and I don't think anyone noticed anything amiss.

The next day the story in larger paper B comes out but it's buried in like paragraph 38 of a 40 paragraph story. Then people from wh's work start texting him. He has a job with some very minor importance in his industry so wh calls his boss, tells him the story and asks if he should go into work the next day. Wh's boss says yes... By Friday they reverse that decision and move him to a new location.

I somehow end up with only one personal friend seeing the stories in the news, I think largely saved by the fact that we have different last names.

I am not spared emotionally though. For months I have to force myself to eat. Some nights I can only sleep 1.5 hours. It is the busiest time of year at my office and I am now the world's most craptastic employee. A few weeks later my self esteem plummets through the floor and I manage to buy $500 worth of bathing suits and underwear in a few hours, barely managing to stop myself from starting to look into laser hair removal. Even five months later I am still terrified that everyone I know will find out about this and the public humiliation that could ensue (probably one of the main reasons I have never told anyone else about this). I dread the possibility of randomly running into anyone who does know about this (twice so far). Charges against WH are basically on hold due to lawsuits from Kraft and some of the other rich assholes who were arrested.

The only thing we did right in this situation is find a counselor quickly. And that basically only happened because I was so scared and traumatized and panicy that I was mentally screaming all day "I need help". And thank God we got a great counselor through WH's EAP.

Five months later I am doing better. Not good but better. I am lucky that I found out everything on D-Day (I am between 60-90 percent sure this is true depending on the day). And I am lucky that WH is working his ass off to do everything possible to reconcile. But it still just constantly hurts so damn much.

I have to try to find a way to live with the fact that WH was willing to throw a 20 year relationship into the toilet for a hand job and couldn't be bothered to find out if the prostitutes he was using were human trafficking victims or not - sadly if you Google the "massage parlor" he was using locally one of the first stories is human trafficking allegations. I have to live with a video of my husband having sex with a prostitute out there somewhere and it possibly becoming public some day. I am sleeping and eating now but am still largely useless at work and - in spite of a lot of work on it - my self esteem is still garbage. I feel like a completely different person than the woman I was 5.5 months ago.

If anyone read this all the way through, thank you. It feels helpful to have written it out.

marji posted 8/9/2019 04:25 AM

Outofsorts I have just read your post. I am so sorry you now have the new reality to live through, live with.

I have a vey similar story. Some others here on SI do too. My story differs from yours in the frequency and length of years my H indulged in that horrible, exploitative, disgusting and pathetic activity; it also differs in that there was no publicity; he was never caught-no public humiliation--just private and personal.

I've been a member here on SI for four years now. My closest friend knows nothing about it; my other friends know just a little but nothing about the length and breadth of it. I suspect they were under the impression that he'd gone once or twice.

We still live together; he's now retired; ironically I found out only a few months before the retirement that he'd been going around lunch time twice weekly for over ten years. Was planning to stop after he was no longer working. So we live together but I've never overcome my disgust and have no desire for intimacy with him any more. I thought early on I'd feel differently but that has not changed.

I understand your buying the swim suits. I understand how you feel. But your feelings will change. If you're working with a good IC, if your H is doing all he possibly can to help you feel safe again, if he's doing all he can to help himself become a healthy, trustworthy partner, you will come to feel better; you will come into your self confidence again. Life will never be the same, the marriage will never be the same but your life can be beautiful again.

AmIAnIdiot15 posted 8/10/2019 13:15 PM

Outofsorts, I'm sorry that you had to go through that!

The legal issues and public issues on top of everything else... and now the legal limbo.

Keep posting! We are here for you!

outofsorts posted 8/11/2019 19:25 PM

Marji and AmI,

Thank you both for the kind messages! I really appreciate hearing from others in a similar situation - although god knows I hate that there are seemingly so many of us.

In some ways I am glad he was caught. While he had stopped going to "massage parlors" for the two months previous to dday (after having sex in Florida) he doesn't really know why he was able to stop. I could easily see this evolving into a long-term situation.

marji posted 8/11/2019 20:24 PM

outofsorts I've heard from others whose H's were caught that in some way they were glad. One woman I know whose H's habit became very public and for which he was arrested and faced trial said it made it possible for her to know who her true friends were--and to get amazing support from very good people. A part of me wishes my H had been caught. Seems unfair that he gets off scot free while others are made to suffer public shame; I think I would like to have seen him confronted by others beside myself and our therapist.

You sound good. Hope your dealing well with all this. It does get better.

outofsorts posted 8/18/2019 20:56 PM

After sex with WH last night he asked if I like a new position we tried and I said yes. I then asked if he liked it - he said it was okay but that he preferred positions with "more smooches". That response bothered me then but I didn't know where to go with it so I tried to let it drop. It is still bothering me now and I still don't know where to go with it so am posting it here....

I've intentionally not asked any details about the sex with the prostitute but I think it's probably safe to assume there was not a lot of kissing. WTF????

Aside from that we had a really great day yesterday (went out of town for the weekend) and I realized that for at least a few hours I was feeling a sense of peace. Something I hadn't felt in at least the six months since I'd found out about this.

PleaseHugMe posted 8/19/2019 12:56 PM

In the course of our 8 year relationship., I know he was at least 4 escorts, and 3 massages with him being masturbated.

He says all of the times he didnít enjoy it.
Itís hard to believe someone would keep going back if true? Shortest gap is 6 months, longest is about 3 years.

I think he is somewhat of a porn addict, he said he liked the idea more, but then when it came to it he wanted to leave, or stop but says he didnít know how so he went along with it.
Obviously it makes more sense if he did enjoy it, but I have my suspicions of some kind of sex addict?
I have seen him struggle to maintain an erection if we ever use a condom.

But none of it makes sense, thatís why Iím so scared now. The last time was just over three weeks ago. I found out because I saw search history after, and I demanded to see his card statements.

It came after we had had a really big shift in our relationship, where we thought we were going to break up, but he had decided we were going to recommit and work on everything. We had even talked about his past cheating, and had great sex the night before. He had a sex worker to his hotel room, then had a shower and video called me right away after to Ďproveí he was in (he had never had them come to his hotel before as far as I know, in fact I was able to see his location on the map to Ďproveí his innocence.

Iím so confused. And angry. And yet I feel like I want to make that stupid man go get his head sorted out.

marji posted 8/19/2019 17:29 PM

PHMNot sure what you are confused about. It seems very clear your bf's habits, proclivities-whatever. If you are not happy in a relationship where you are not exclusive then you might want to take steps to get out of the relationship. If you are not happy with what he is doing but feel that overall you're ok with it--then you need not take the steps to get out.

The main thing is you put your efforts into deciding what is good for you-what kind of relationship, what kind of reality you want to Iive in.

You say you want him to get his head sorted out-but that's not something you can decide or control. That's only for him to decide to work on. You have only yourself, your head, your heart and your stomach to consider.

Not sure what you mean by none of it making sense; yes, he may have addiction issues. But what really matters is what kind of relationship with what kind of person you want to be with.

Echo86 posted 8/22/2019 09:36 AM

Hello all,

Iím seeking all the emotional support I can get right now. I know that ultimately I have to take responsibility for my decisions and how to move forward in my life but it really does help to hear words of encouragement from people who have been there.

I am proceeding with an uncontested divorce - but Iím doing so very reluctantly and full of fear. Itís been 8 months since Dday and subsequent separation. WH was visiting parlors and getting happy endings for about 6-7 months, and twice it was intercourse. After some teeth pulling he came clean about it all. Heís been beyond emotional and begging me to stay. Promising transparency and honesty. Gave me access to all things... but in July, when snooping his Google activity, and he knew I had access and was checking, I found a search for Rubmaps & escorts. He has sworn up and down that he didnít search for it. No budging whatsoever. Complete and utter denial. I threatened to divorce because the lie was more concerning than the act, if that makes any sense. This has been a daily conversation, and he will not admit to it. I am really questioning myself. It doesnít so much change anything that heís already done, but it may or may not confirm that thereís a far bigger issue at hand. Is he really a massive pathological liar? If he is, he is a damn good one.

Heís come clean about everything else, about the porn he watches, about literally everything, about details I didnít even want to know but wonít budge on this search from July. He says he refuses to admit to something he didnít do.

I donít know - I just feel like Iím going absolutely insane. I already decided to proceed with the divorce to protect myself, (trying to judge with my brain and not heart) but this is really bothering me, because I wish I could just confirm that Iím making the right decision here. And I donít know if I am. Was it a phase that we could work through or is it a serious problem he has that he is in utter denial about?

Anyway, thanks for listening. I guess Iím just wondering if / when this questioning of whether Iíve made the right decision will ever go away. I feel deflated, uncertain, confused, sad, all of the things. Trying to stay strong and do whatís right for me and my life, but I feel like Iím in a lose-lose. My friends are popping out babies and I feel like Iím moving backwards in life. This has by far been the hardest time in my life and this has consumed every aspect of my life. I just wish someone would give me the answers and I know thatís not possible.

DevastatedDee posted 8/22/2019 09:48 AM

You're making the right decision. You know he's lying. People with these issues don't tend to just stop either. They are far more fucked up than any of us could have ever known and you never do know the full truth about all that they've done.

Proceed with the divorce. You are saving yourself more heartache. Your love for him will fade and go away with time apart. Your new life will become your new normal. I can just about guarantee you that you won't regret divorcing this man. You have an extremely high chance of regretting not divorcing this man.

Superesse posted 8/22/2019 10:58 AM

^^^ DevastatedDee speaks wisdom.

If it were me, I would have somehow preserved that search history for evidence; not sure if you did, but if you still have the history, here is a thought, provided you can handle the impact it might have on you. Go visit the site shown right before and the site shown right after that one, and look fast at the address bar to see if it "redirects." You know how sometimes you get a message "browser will open in a different site?"

I have no idea about how things are designed in that underworld, but what I am wondering is, if he actually DID visit the site but that name didn't register with his horndog brain. Hence his holding on to his story?

As far as possibly "embedded ads" go, don't fall for that one, either! I was told that line of BS by my SAWH when we were newlyweds, and I decided to look at his search history on my computer. There were some truly horrible sites! The next day, I asked our town's IT chief, a police officer, if such a website could show up in history if it was from an embedded ad in another website. He said "you have to actually visit the site for that website address to show in the history file." Oh. Then he added "Somebody's lying to you."

But really, it's all just quibbling over technicalities! Which misses the real point, as Dee said; you seem to be hoping to learn that maybe he didn't go to every nasty website? But, you already know he does this, and you are wise to realize that it will continue no matter what, whether or not YOU stay.

Trust me on this, my SAWH said he was "cured" of looking at such stuff for 12 years, until he got busted by the police for trying to hook up with a "woman" he located on a prostitution site....on my birthday. It just seemed to come out of the blue, after all those years I tried so hard to believe him. And I could not even say that I was surprised. I had lived in that fear all those years.

Had I been here in 2002, I am sure people would have told me what we are telling you now, and I could have saved a LOT of my life from this ugliness.

[This message edited by Superesse at 11:07 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

Echo86 posted 8/22/2019 12:15 PM

Thank you DevastatedDee and Superesse. ❤️

I visited the sites myself and did see an ad on the bottom that directed to the subsequent sites visited. So I went to rubmaps first and on that site there was an ad for the escort services. The bottom line is whether he went there intentionally or not, where thereís smoke, thereís fire. I know that. He claims no wrongdoing whatsoever and itís killing me that after all this he canít tell me the truth. It just kills me. It makes no difference at this point so why not just be real? I donít get it. 12+ years together and this is the crap I get. The other thing is - if by some miracle he is telling the truth and Iím completely wrong and this was a major major coincidence - the fact that I canít trust what heís saying is bothersome on its own and speaks to a bigger issue Iíd be dealing with for the rest of my life.

Anyway, I appreciate your input. Today the paralegal contacted me and asked me if I wanted to expedite the divorce to 2-3 months for an extra $250. I was so reluctant to speed up the process by that much but your comments gave me the little push I needed to get this done with. So thank you.

Iím still deeply sad that this is my life. I feel so alone and donít even know where to begin to rebuild.... how to let go of him. Itís so hard.

[This message edited by Echo86 at 12:16 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

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