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Emotionless Infidelity Part 4

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marji posted 3/20/2019 17:53 PM

Somber Please speak with an attorney who specializes in domestic law-i.e. an attorney who specializes in divorce and custody issues. Not sure the attorney who works for a children's aid society is not knowledgeable but it would be better to speak with someone who profession is directed to divorce/custody issues and who knows how the court system works.

What you have to tell the the judge who makes the determination can be very influential; that your husband has the problems he has and acts the way he does may mean that he would not necessarily get what he asked for in a custody matter.

An experienced domestic law attorney should be able to full explain the realities of the jurisdiction where you live and guide you in the process. For example, you might be advised to document your H's drinking and smoking weed in the presence of the children; and while adultery is typically no longer a grounds of divorce, the kind of behavior involved in the adultery such as family money spent, time away, etc. can influence a judge. But again, I think it would be worth your while to find the very best, most experienced, attorney you can to learn as much as possible.

Somber posted 3/21/2019 19:50 PM

Sami,
Your WH sounds like he has insight into his behaviour and is trying. I admire that!
Mine certainly hasnít started real work, I no longer think he actually wants too or knows where to start. There are times I see true narcissistic traits. I really wanted things to be different, hoped for change, dreamt of a happier ending. I donít think I will have that in this marriage. I will bump
Up my IC, I do really need it. I like her and feel comfortable. She also is a sex addict therapist believe it or not, so has insight helping me understand that his behaviour has nothing to do with me. She is trying to help me navigate the whys to my codependent behaviour as well.

Marji,
The attorney I saw does do family law and custody. Maybe she was telling me hard truths and/or I havenít fully understood all she explained. She has an initial background in childrenís aid society so I thought that would be helpful. I have one reported incidence of neglect with childrenís aid against my WH. She has been a divorce and family law lawyer for decades and even has written books. She did mention that if I prove alcoholic behaviour, he may need supervised visits at first or have to prove he can be sober while with the children. So
I may have them more in the beginning but believe he will fight for that 40% to pay less support. Maybe he wonít. I just wanted a guaranteed answer going forward.

What you have to tell the the judge who makes the determination can be very influential

I suppose I was hoping we wouldnít need a judge...at 80-100,000 seems like a last resort. She was suggesting collaborative law where my lawyer and his meet and work out a separation agreement we can agree on. Then after one year separation we divorce.
With my concerns and substance abuse, as well as his inappropriate sexual activity, perhaps court is the best option!

Again, thank you for your support! It really is a tremendous help.

sami1234 posted 3/28/2019 07:49 AM

Somber: Any updates?

My WH has been home for 1.5 weeks. He travels for work a lot. I've decided that I'm really two people. When he's home he's loving, supportive, kind...all the things I would hope he would be...and things feel pretty good. When he leaves on a trip, I get restless, angry, spend more time on SI...it's just not good. I've kind of accepted it's just gonna be this way for a while, maybe for a long time.

I'm so happy to see the change in his behaviors BUT, you have to question how can someone do these things and then turn around and be so good? See? He can't win!! If he's doing something questionable I'll question it. If he's being pretty darned perfect I'll question that too? BUT, isn't his behavior what led me to this place to begin with? If he wants true R he's gonna have to wade through this aftermath with me.

Somber posted 3/29/2019 08:54 AM

Sami,
Thanks for checking in. I feel so alone in all this and have been trying to contact a Sanon group as I think I need it! I have another appt with IC next week to process everything. I feel so traumatized, hurt, sad and angry too. No real updates otherwise. I have not seen another lawyer, too expensive to lawyer shop. I am researching things on my own.

I was planning on addressing my request for a separation this weekend. My WH is still acting out, in denial about any of his problems, continues to disrespect me and lie to me. Just yesterday he says he is not on Facebook and hasnít been for years in case I saw something in his email. I have not thought about his Facebook for 2 years as I thought he was off it and using Instagram instead. He was out lastnight and I signed into his fbook and saw he was on it and messaging a girl. Nothing specific in that message but again more lies. He meant to take another girl out lastnight but it didnít work out and took a friend instead to an event that I got him tickets to. I saw a Sexual text to her just 2 days ago. I canít handle it anymore.
I do want out, I know I will never ever trust him again!! I donít love him or respect him either. I just fear the uglier side of him when I say I want to separate.

It is so hard to rebuild trust even when your WH seems to be making the effort. I can tell when he leaves on a trip is very anxiety provoking for you...I wonder if he checks in more if that will help. I question when my WH is good too but for me it has been a distraction from more acting out. Your WH canít win right now and thatís okay. If he really wants R then over time I hope that it gets easier and the trust is rebuilt for you.

sami1234 posted 3/29/2019 17:35 PM

You are welcome Somber. Honestly there just can't be any R if the WH does nothing for it. I can't blame you for leaving. My WH slipped up and said a few incredibly dumb things in the beginning and I walked out...only for him to call me and say that wasn't how he thought anymore. But honestly, if I hadn't had real remorse and change of lots of behaviors I would be out.

I had a good friend (thrice divorced BTW) who knew about a bit of his infidelity, not everything but a bit. She did say that I was "lucky" that most men don't try this hard. I don't know if any of us consider ourselves "lucky" to be here, it's a terrible place to be.

Somber you sound much more centered and...well, stronger! I hope that is true. You are NOT alone there are so, so many of us sad but true.

S13new posted 4/1/2019 21:43 PM

With the exception of one pa 4 years ago with a 20 year old who he told he loved, my 43 year old wh mostly engages in emotionless physical less (is that a word?) affairs. His m.o. is to message lifestyle instagrammers, Twitter whores, and random people on words with friends. Then heíll email or text pics, try to talk dirty if theyíre receptive, etc. the most painful thing he does is message local women he meets out and about. Yíall, he will look up our Cheesecake Factory waitress on Facebook and try to friend her. The teller at the bank. Obviously all his hooter waitresses. He starts out getting their phone numbers (with some weird excuse. ie if they need lawn care, since he does yard work on the side) then proceed to text them throughout the day. Howís it going, come take my biology test for me, you buying lunch today? Heís trolling constantly. Snapchat and Facebook messenger are favorite venues of his. We have sex about once a year. Because I finally bitch enough about it that he gives in, but it is BAD yíall. I donít think the man knows what heís doing. He never tells me I look nice, or smell good, or kisses my neck, or hold my hand. And heís never talked dirty to me the way he does these other women he talks to. Not that dirty talk is my cup of tea, but for Peteís sake. Youíve got a willing sex starved wife at home. Why look for this somewhere else?! I donít get it. I donít get how he can go out of his way to not be physical w me, but heís Casanova on the phone! Perhaps it is an intimacy issue. Idk. Our one try at mc ended after a month because he said all we did was talk about Ďhisí problems and didnít bring up any of the stuff I do that bothers him. Weíre in limbo now, prob divorcing. So I guess all this is a moot point and a lot of rambling. But I felt better reading talks stories and wanted to share mine. Thank you!

Somber posted 4/3/2019 18:49 PM

S13new,

I just wanted to let you know that you are heard and are not alone! I am so sorry you find yourself here as well. It is so hurtful.
I am well aware of the frustration of the constant trolling. It sounds addictive and certainly like an intimacy deeply rooted problem too. This is all on him and has nothing to do with you!
Please take care of yourself! There are good resources on here and people with great advice!!
I am in the fog of it all too. What helps, aside from this site, is confiding in a few good friends and an IC. Do you have a IC? From my experience and advice on here, MC doesnít usually work unless there is some IC first.

Falling posted 4/30/2019 13:57 PM

Hi ladies (is it all ladies in this thread? Seems to be)

I'm still living in limbo land. Things don't seem to be improving enough to make me think we have a future together, but I haven't left either. One of the things holding me back from recommitting is that I just don't know if he really has changed his ways or if he's just stringing me along and hiding or planning to hide it better in the future.

Something I think would help with this would be if I knew better ways to check up on him, sad as it sounds. Please can you tell me what you do to monitor your WH's? I thought there might be a place on SI that had a info sheet for BS but I couldn't find anything.

Shocked123 posted 5/2/2019 16:46 PM

Falling,
What was/is your husband's issue? What type of acting out?
I can probably suggest a few things as I became quite the detective for a few months before confronting my H.
I understand your need to feel safe and occasionally check on his whereabouts. I did this incessantly for close to a year until I recently joined a SANON group. They are helping me understand that being a sleuth is no way to live. I agree with them to a certain extent but the need to feel safe overrides the energy it takes to snoop.
Either way, let me know what he was up to and I'll give you a few suggestions. You may already be doing most of what I did to figure it all out.

Falling posted 5/4/2019 13:42 PM

Thanks Shocked.

He was just going for no strings attached sex whenever he could. ONSs, sometimes prostitutes. A lot of it linked to alcohol which he has now quit but I know that was not the reason for it, only a catalyst. I found out because of a photo I happened to see in his recently deleted folder.

He has an iphone. I know about the frequent locations bit in settings, the analytics bit and the battery bit to see what apps have been used. But with web browsing there's no telling because he could use the private browser. Whatsapp too he can just delete stuff. I have the Find Friends app but he has an apple watch too and I have visions of him leaving one in his hotel and taking the other to go out clubbing and meet girls. In my opinion it's just too easy to cheat undetected when its all no strings.

marji posted 5/4/2019 14:49 PM

Falling I exercise some control by having control of the money. Have you considered taking full control of all money matters?
It's not fool proof if your H can set up his own account without your knowing but if that's unlikely then you can be in charge of all expenditures.

Shocked123 posted 5/7/2019 21:33 PM

Falling,
Here I am offering to help you with sleuthing and you know more than I do! What are analytics bit and Battery bit?
Also, do you have access to this detailed billing for his cell phone. I requested about 20 invoices over the past 10 years and I was shocked to see the hundreds of calls to massage parlours and prostitutes. I can't imagine how many I would find if I requested all 120 invoices over the past 10 years. I can also assume at least a few thousand calls. Who knows how many visits....And that's assuming it's only been 10 years. I know he hasn't given me the entire truth yet.
Well worth a glance if you can get access to the details of his calls.

marji posted 5/8/2019 13:01 PM

Can't help it but have to chime in on the checking of the calls. That would not have helped me at all.

Turns out my H had a special cell phone just for calling the parlors!!

But crazy enough he had no special account --all the withdrawals--which amounted to $400/wk for over 10 years were entered right there in our mutual check book all those years!! I just never noticed.

I used the check book maybe twice a month and only payed attention to my entries; it was just total fluke that ten years later I did notice $200 withdrawals and that's when all life changed.

Shocked123 posted 5/9/2019 20:35 PM

Marji,
I wonder about my H having a second phone as well.
I worry about the wool being pulled over my eyes. He seems sincere enough but who knows? It was easy for him to cheat all those years, it would be easy to continue.

marji posted 5/13/2019 04:55 AM

Shocked Because it was easy for him to cheat before does not mean it would be easy to cheat again. In fact, I think discovery makes it quite different. Not impossible, logistically speaking, but psychologically totally different. It's a whole new reality they face; not the same new reality as we live, but different none the less. Don't believe once a cheater, always a cheater but do believe that once caught, not so easy to easily cheat again.

About the practical matter of having such a device now--I would think that would be known if you have control of the finances. My H is now retired and we are together just about all the time-and I now pay attention to money matters-which I never did before; so I have a kind of security about his behavior which I wouldn't if he were still working but if he were still working I'm sure I'd be following the money trail.

The very wealthy around here (the multimillionaires and billionaires) have been known to have their own, private (secret) accounts that their partners and spouses know nothing of and which support all sorts of habits. What comfort to know my H is not a super wealthy man.

ElizabethC posted 5/18/2019 20:24 PM

Hi Y'all. New to SI. I posted my story in the Reconciliation forum, and someone there suggested this thread. I am both sorry and glad to find you all here. I don't know anyone IRL dealing with this, so it's helpful to read other people's experiences. WH and I were married in 2011, and DDay was September 2018. Found out he had been going to massage parlors for happy endings for the past 3 years. It's been a roller coaster for me since then. And it's so lonely.

marji posted 5/19/2019 11:40 AM

Elizabeth Welcome to this group. You may also want to learn about SA since, while not all, but some men who engage in EI type activities are also SAs.

Elizabeth it can take many years to recover from the trauma their betrayal has caused. Your H betrayed you for 3 years-that more than half your M. I found out my H had been going to the parlors for ten years-that was about a third of our M. It's disgusting and very sick, dishonest and abusive behavior. If I had known what my H had been doing I would never have been having sex with him so in a sense I was raped for ten years--just didn't know it.

But that's background. If you feel like telling anyone-a friend-a pastor that is up to you. Your H is not the one to be giving advice or guiding your decision--he is not a person I would trust to give advice or guidance.

But I would think carefully about who to tell; people do not always react in a comforting or helpful way. Instead I suggest you join a RL support group. SANON would be a good start even if your H is not technically an SA. A good SANON group can help with loneliness; there will be people there who understand even if their stories are not exactly the same. And yes, SI is also a life saver. The people here have helped me for four years now so great that you have found us and please continue to ask anything you'd like, say anything you'd like and know that in time you'll find your way again.

marji posted 5/19/2019 14:36 PM

Identifying with abuse victims. A new realization--I read an article today about a film about sex abuse by clergy in Poland and realized that while the victims were children and I am not, and while they suffered the physical abuse and I did not, and while they knew what was going on and I did not, I easily identify with victims of such abuse.

Four years ago, after discovery, two therapists asked me if I identified with the women by H had exploited. I thought the question strange at first but then realized that EI behaviors involve double exploitation.

Perhaps all betrayal involves double exploitation-notwithstanding the moral weakness of a typical AP who, despite knowing her lover is married, continues the relationship even asking that he leave his wife and family, the betrayer is exploiting the AP -especially when he has no idea or plan to leave his marriage.

But an even colder, more heartless form of exploitation is evident with the men who exploit the young women working in massage parlors--as in my H's case, day after day, week after week, year after year. To these men it makes no difference that they are promoting sex trafficking and it doesn't bother them that they are also exploiting their partners, their spouses.

But I said, no, I didn't identify with those women. As bad as their lives were, socially, financially, they were not being lied to, they were not being fooled-they were not doing things daily, weekly under a false impression of their husband's decency, loyalty and and good faith. They were certainly exploited by him, disrespected, trivialized, dishonored as women, and as human beings, but not deceived and manipulated.

But I do identify with the abuse victims I hear about. They were mislead and manipulated. I relate to their asking their abusers "why," "why, did you do that?" "How could you?" I've asked my abuser betrayer H the same questions.

The massage parlor prostitutes don't have such questions. They haven't been disillusioned by their clients, their johns. It's all up front and honest in a way. Not even so secret to the outside world since the signs for their business are all over the place; my H found his places in a local paper. So no secrets between them. But surely a huge secret with regards to me, our lives together and a secret with everyone else in his life outside the parlor. I was part of a secret life I knew nothing about; how crazy is that?

The abuse of the children also involves secret. The children are told to keep the secret. Now I keep the secret too. It's not to protect him but to protect myself-but it's secret keeping still.

The victims, now adults, speak of feeling shame. They carry the shame with them through life. feel shame. Yes, it's different in the detail. They were innocently but physically involved; I was not. They sort of knew. I did not. But now I do. And now I feel the shame of being married to someone who could live that way, do what he did, feel as he did, want as he did, lie as he did, exploit and abuse as he did. Shame for being with someone so insensitive, so exploitative. And so needy of such a fix.

I can identify with the abuse victims when they talk about their disgust and how certain things can trigger their disgust years after.

I still cannot watch tv with my H because that is what we did when he came home from work. I didn't know then, but I know at least twice weekly it wasn't just work he'd been at all day but also the parlors. And I still feel disgust when passing a T-Mobile store because I learned he used a TM cell phone to make his appointments.

Like the victims of sex abuse, I too would spend years dealing with the trauma and the disillusion. Dealing with the freakiness of learning someone was not who we assumed; learning someone we respected, trusted, loved, was a very creepy, unhealthy and unethical person.

The abuse victims in these stories were innocents. The vast majority were children or young teens. I was a wife, not a child, but I also relate to their innocence as I relate to their feelings of disgust, and shame and sadness.

Shocked123 posted 5/26/2019 19:52 PM

HI Elisabeth,
I'm sorry you have found yourself here because of your H's massage parlour habit. My H was active in parlours both in Asia and back home for over 12 years that he will admit to.
I understand the hurt you are feeling and the initial shock is unbearable.
What you are living is very lonely, I agree. There is so much shame and the fear of being judged is high.
SI is a great place to turn to but as Marji said, a SANON group is extremely helpful. It took me a year to find one and have been attending meetings for a month now. I have learned more at these meetings than 7 months with a therapist who was clueless about acting out sexually.
Elisabeth, you do not speak of how your husband is dealing with this. Does he own it? Is he willing to go to IC?
How are you feeling about what you discovered?
Please continue writing on this forum or maybe even the partners of SA page. You may or not suspect addiction but regardless, you have been hurt and there are many others there who will understand your concerns.
I feel for you and many are here to try to help, if only to listen and validate your feelings.

ElizabethC posted 6/2/2019 20:50 PM

Does he own it?

Most of the time. Took a little while to get there. He is going to IC. Most of the time he's apologetic and empathetic. Other times his insecurities, shame, and anger get in the way. Sometimes he allows me to express the hurt and sadness, and suggest what he might do to help me heal. Other times he deflects his own insecurities on it and wants me to reassure him. Or thinks that what I ask him to do is unfair, because if he has to do XYZ, I should be doing it too. We fought about it Friday night, but then today he apologized for going out of bounds, for hurting me, for allowing himself to be blinded by the lies he told himself. I guess sometimes it's a step forward, step back, step forward thing.

I'm still feeling hurt and sad most of the time (We're closing in on 9 months out). It is betrayal of me and vows we took. I'm already thinking about our wedding anniversary (8th) next month. He will want to celebrate as a new beginning type thing. It's just going to be a painful reminder to me. I'll have to figure out how to navigate this.

I'm not sure that he has a sex addiction, though I can relate to many of the things I found on the SANON questionnaire. The closest group is over an hour away, and not really feasible right now.

Hope everyone else in this thread is doing ok right now.

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