SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am 49M, divorced. She is 37F, divorced. We are engaged but live separately. She has a kid. Been together for 4 years.

I am convinced she has been cheating.

First red flag for me was when she admitted to me that she had an affair while she was married. She admitted soon after we met and although I appreciated that she admitted it on her own, it still felt like she was obscuring or fabricating some details. The main red flag for me was that she couldn't articulate WHY she had that affair. She supposedly still loved her husband and cared about him. All I got was that she was alone in a different country for 2 months and it was purely physical. Anyways, that was 7-8 years ago so I put it behind me.

A few weeks ago, I found out a few things:

1. She was texting an ex-colleague. Something felt off in the way she was talking so I asked to see the text messages but she said she deleted them. She later admitted she sent him a silly sexual joke... she claims it was the only time they ever texted.

2. She was also texting another ex-colleague. She actually kept the conversations and showed them to me. There was nothing inappropriate, but she is sharing details about her day and telling him she misses him. His responses are very appropriate, but the weird thing is that he did not respond to those "I miss you" messages. Not even with an "I miss you too" or anything. So either he is avoiding her (WHY?), or she deleted his responses. I asked to see his profile on LinkedIn and somehow magically they are no longer connected... (who deleted who and why?). He is married and lives in a different country - which she had visited for a week once when she first got the job. Gut feeling is that something happened between them during that time.

3. She is someone who is glued to her phone and looks at notifications right away. She even reads her texts and texts me back while driving - something we argue about. Now and then she claims she didn't get a notification or that she missed my messages, or bad signal etc... or just leaving me on 'read' for 1-2 hours (we use whatsapp). I know she is lying.

The really weird and confusing thing is that everything else is just great. She seems to have a genuine desire for me. But I have a very strong feeling she is lying. And I want to end it but I don't have proof.

Talking to her, she gets angry and defensive and her stories always feel incomplete. There is definitely some gaslighting involved, accusing me of having trust issues. I feel tormented. I think I can catch her if I decide to. But I hate playing these games. What if I am wrong?

Feeling tormented and confused. Am I exaggerating?

Nope.

Where there is smoke there is fire. There are enough red flags here that I would move on. Doesn’t sound like you will get the truth and it’s sounds like she is a serial cheater with bad boundaries. I wouldn’t hitch my cart to all that, get out and move on. Sounds like she is a chaotic person who likes to be as close to the fire as she can.

The absolute best thing I learned from infidelity is this: Listen to your gut. It knows something's amiss.

Simply put:

DO NOT MARRY THIS WOMAN!

As Hikingout accurately stated, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Trust your gut.

Picking up from locked topic in JFO...

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:36 PM, Monday, March 11th]

Hi Techie,

I obviously have no idea whether she is cheating or not. I do know that she has poor or non-existent boundaries with other men and is covering her tracks by deleting her messages. People with nothing to hind, tend not to delete messages. I think that is reason enough not to trust her. Given her past, you are well within your right to have concerns. Instead of addressing them with empathy, understanding, and concern, she becomes defensive and is gaslighting you. Had she really learned and grown from the mistakes she made in her previous marriage, she should be open to transparency. The fact that she is not, is a problem in itself.

I agree with others that say that trusting your gut is important.

Duplicate from my response in the thread in JFO:

At best this is highly suspect behavior. At worst...

Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life - because the writing is sadly on the wall.

And I want to end it but I don't have proof.

It sounds like you're tormented because you want to justify breaking off the relationship. The thing is, you don't need "she's cheating" as a justification. "I'm uncomfortable in this relationship" or "I don't trust you" is reason enough to end it. People end relationships for all kinds of reasons or no reason at all.

I do NOT feel like you are exaggerating. I personally feel "I miss you" to random married guy in another country would not sit well with me. But, the largest red flags to me are the fact that she's cheated before on a partner she claims she still cared about and couldn't explain her why's. That to me seems like she did not do the work to become introspective and to change her patterns of behaviors to learn better coping skills, and to build her self worth so that she's not consistently seeking external validation. The "I miss you" text for example, the being glued to her phone for notifications, all feel to me like external validations she seems to "need". I also would not discount your own feelings or your gut. She is obviously capable of lying, hence her previous choices. The defensiveness is also not okay. Open, honest and safe communication is required for a healthy partnership. If she can't even have a conversation with you about your very valid feelings in a safe space where she does not gaslight, blame, accuse you of having trust issues, and getting defensive, etc. then how are you two expected to have a partnership? If you cannot communicate your concerns, how will you feel heard or safe in this dynamic with her? You wont.

Techie

One question: Why did your first marriage end? Infidelity?

There is really only one person that needs to be convinced and that’s YOU.
You don’t need evidence or proof as in undeniable DNA traces on shared drinking straws or glossy photos. All you need is that YOU are convinced. If you want to end it then end it.

Try this: Tell her yes, you do have trust issues. Its now up to you two to decide how best to handle those trust issues, and to establish how "trust" would be if you two were to take this beyond an engagement.
Point out that her ex-husband trusted her, yet here you are. You and your ex-wife trusted each other, yet here you are. That in order to move forwards you two need to establish some form of trust-but-verify, and that now is the best time to establish that protocol.
Then tell her that you aren’t happy with her pattern of conversing with male former colleagues. That you find it strange that it’s only men, surely she also worked with women and yet there is no chat there.

The guys reaction by not responding… Actually that could be the normal reaction of a faithful husband that might get a semi-legit, semi-strange convo from a married woman but doesn’t really want to respond.

And I want to end it but I don't have proof.

Follow up because I missed this line the first time around. You don't need a smoking gun to end it. To be honest, you don't NEED any reason at all, but if you feel you need a "good reason"..... You don't trust her is a good enough reason. Her becoming defensive and angry when your raise valid issues in the relationship is a good enough reason. Her having poor boundaries with other men is a good reason. Her being secretive and sketchy regarding text messages with other men is a good enough reason. The fact that she continues to put her life (and the lives of other road users) at risk by insisting on texting and driving, when you have addressed this with her previously, is a good enough reason. Without trust and open/honest communication, it is difficult for you to be vulnerable, close, and to feel safe and secure in your relationship.

Have you read about DARVO?
D - deny,
A - attack,
R - reverse
V - victim and
O - offender

I encourage you to google it as it sounds like what is going on when she suggests that you have trust issues. It's a manipulation tactic used to discredit your concerns and avoid accountability. Having "trust issues" when someone is acting in an untrustworthy manner is not unreasonable - in fact, it is perfectly reasonable. If you were acting paranoid and irrational in the absence of her sketchiness, that might be an issue, but my guess is she doesn't seem to have an issue with your actions until you start trying to shine a light on HER behaviour.

thank you all for reading, esp. for the elaborate responses. I will go through them in more details and post updates.

The one thing that confuses me the most is that she seems to have a very genuine and unmistakable desire for me. For instance, she initiates sex often and is always reciprocative, her kisses/hugs are real, she takes every opportunity to hold my hand in public ... and she shows reasonable jealousy when there are other women around. I've been in many relationships where I didn't feel this much desire for me. It is just not typical for a woman to have true desire for her man yet be how I describe: avoid accountability, having the capacity to lie and at a minimum being playful with other men.

Thanks again for all the support. I need some confirmation that my concerns are valid.

As I said in the jfo thread before it was blocked, if you are tormented this is not the woman for you. Cmon man You are here for a reason. She may be the hottest sex machine since Ginger Lynn, but if your gut is screaming do not trust her, then do not trust her. You know this. So do what you have to do.

techie49

from another "techie"

think of what you posted:

The one thing that confuses me the most is that she seems to have a very genuine and unmistakable desire for me. For instance, she initiates sex often and is always reciprocative, her kisses/hugs are real, she takes every opportunity to hold my hand in public ... and she shows reasonable jealousy when there are other women around. I've been in many relationships where I didn't feel this much desire for me. It is just not typical for a woman to have true desire for her man yet be how I describe: avoid accountability, having the capacity to lie and at a minimum being playful with other men.

Ever go to movies? Ever go to a movie with smoking hot love scenes? (Boy/Girl type scene!) - Know that the two actors are, well, ACTING!!!

Taken as a whole what you have posted - I would hazard a guess your hear-throb is a very accomplished actor. But, just something that occurred to me. And something to consider.

BTW, the scene has TWO Actors. Are you also acting?

1) Don't marry anytime soon
2) If you end up marrying, prenup

I think the main red flag is she cheated in marriage number 1. However, I am not sure that's enough to not move forward and marry at some point. For me it sets a serious context for the other concerns but the other concerns on there own may not dealbreaker red flags. Yet, at least.

Questions:

How do you know she is lying to you about the messages? What do you think she is doing when she does not respond to you right away?

Have you given her feedback on her defensiveness when you bring up concerns? This issue is perhaps the major concern I have. You shouldn't get married if you can't resolve conflict effectively at your ages and life experience.

Have you openly discussed and agreed to boundaries with other people? And have you shared your concerns very directly about her texts?

Thanks again. To answer some questions:

One question: Why did your first marriage end? Infidelity?

No, not infidelity. We had been together for ~15 years since highschool but never lived together. 5 years of living together post marriage made us both realize how incompatible we grew. It was a good divorce and I consider her a good friend now. We occasionally check on each other. Our families are also close. She is happily married and I see her once or twice a year during some family events.

Have you read about DARVO?

thanks for pointing this out. Reading about it got me to reading about narcissism. I am no expert, but the more I think about it, the more I realize her behavior checks many of the boxes of narcissistic traits. For instance, having a conversation with her is impossible. She has a weird sense of entitlement and can be self centered with a lot of people (but not with me). Sometimes I feel I am talking to a 10 yr old kid. I have been too busy with work the last few years and I've been so in love with her that I overlooked these traits, I think.

Ever go to movies? Ever go to a movie with smoking hot love scenes? (Boy/Girl type scene!) - Know that the two actors are, well, ACTING!!!

Taken as a whole what you have posted - I would hazard a guess your hear-throb is a very accomplished actor. But, just something that occurred to me. And something to consider.

BTW, the scene has TWO Actors. Are you also acting?

I am not acting and I really don't think she is acting, either. I am starting to think she has issues.

How do you know she is lying to you about the messages? What do you think she is doing when she does not respond to you right away?

I don't know for sure, of course. I am judging from her reaction. People who are telling the truth don't mind being questioned. I am basing it on body language, avoidant behavior etc... I think we all just "know" when someone is not telling the truth or hiding something.

maise's reply:

That to me seems like she did not do the work to become introspective and to change her patterns of behaviors to learn better coping skills, and to build her self worth so that she's not consistently seeking external validation. The "I miss you" text for example, the being glued to her phone for notifications, all feel to me like external validations she seems to "need"

struck home. I honestly don't feel anymore she has the emotional intelligence required to do any deep introspection. An affair is important event and one should've thought about it very well. When she was telling me about her affair (again, she told me on her own), I felt I had to connect the dots because here story was incoherent and many of the details just didn't add up. I had to ask her that if she didn't feel comfortable talking about it, then why bring it up in the first place? when cornered with introspective questions like that, "I don't know" is usually her answer.

Every response made me think, so thanks again. I think I am at a point where I just want to walk. I don't want to play detective and I don't want to discover anything tbh; I am sure enough there is something (or many things) going on in her life that she seems to be hiding.

[This message edited by techie49 at 3:53 PM, Thursday, March 14th]

Sounds like you are close to a decision to split from her, which makes sense given your unsettled feelings.

Just for posterity sake, knowing when someone is lying is a very mixed bag. People are not necessarily good at detecting truth, including professions like judges and police who have to do it frequently. We are prone to seeing both lies and truth when it isn't there, depending on the person and the situation. The book "Talking to Strangers" has a few chapters covering research on this dynamic.

Just my humble opinion, which is this: you’d be certifiably insane to marry this woman as-is. If you’re hell-bent on marrying her (an apt description most likely and sadly), then you’d better have the most iron-clad prenup ever written.

Sounds like she has desperate need for continuous ego kibble.

You want be able to do that on your own and she certainly isn't willing to do the work to figure out why she is constantly seeking attention and kibbles. You can't fix her and she clearly minimizes your concerns, not a great way to be treated as a fiance. She will disregard you even more when the trial period is over.

Reading about it got me to reading about narcissism. I am no expert, but the more I think about it, the more I realize her behavior checks many of the boxes of narcissistic traits.

I'm no expert and I obviously have never met her, but I actually read a lot of histrionic personality traits into your post. Clearly attention seeking, manipulative, highly sexual (I assume this is what you are talking about when you refer to her atypical desire), overly sensitive to criticism/disapproval. Does any of this ring true to you? I don't say any of this because I think either you or I should armchair diagnose her, but it may be worth reading up on to see if it rings true to you. NPD and HPD have a lot of overlap. Would you describe her as dramatic or theatric, self-indulgent, suggestive, someone whose feelings are easily hurt but is not particularly considerate of the feelings of others? In my experience, knowledge of a subject matter helps me be able to see things more objectively rather than get caught up in my own emotions on the topic. Histrionics tend to be quite charming and exciting, and I imagine if you're being sex-bombed it might be harder to keep your head on straight.

For reference, I have a close friend whose mom certainly has strong histrionic traits, if not full-blown HPD. Saying someone has a personality disorder can sound like a negative thing, and in many ways it clearly made my friend's life much more difficult and complicated and stressful because growing up her mom often treated her like a bit of an accessory in the show that is her life. Her mom is a character, she has had like 3-4 husbands - she literally married one guy twice - and despite having cheated on most of them, they all - somewhat inexplicably - seem to be on good terms with her and remain in her life and do things to look out for her, and take care of her financially. And like, as wild as this sounds, if you met this woman, you would almost certainly like her - she really is incredibly charming. But like, probably not the best choice if you're looking for a stable life partner, you know?

All of this is a lot of (potentially totally unfounded or offbase) assumptions on my part, but if you think she does have these traits, please know that as charming as she may be, these are traits that are unlikely to change unless she is significantly motivated to do so (it does not sound like she is). Someone like this requires a near constant stream of external validation and will always seek out novelty and drama to get that fix.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 7:41 PM, Thursday, March 14th]