SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m just so sad.

I found you all in Oct 2013. You were immensely helpful with R.

Just found out… he’s got a new AP. I can’t tell for how long (at least in July and again in Nov), but it could be years. She is married with at least 2 kids. I don’t know her. They meet up when my WH goes to periodic conventions for his hobby.

I haven’t confronted him yet, just so so sad! Our kids are now grown, we just bought a retirement home in another state. He’s retired, I’m not yet.

I’m having a hard time keeping it together for the holidays. Thinking of odd things like- damn, I’m going to have to cancel my girls trip to second house! Do I call AP’s H?

Can you R again after a second A? Do I want to? Last A he had ended it before I found out, which seemed like a more solid starting point.

He is so chipper and lovey, talking about all our upcoming plans (trip to Ireland, trip to second house etc)

I am so sorry for you.

Is it possible that he’s cheating again because he knows you won’t leave him or do anything about it? You gave him the gift of R once and he’s most likely expecting it again.

Maybe this time you need to read up in the 180. The hard 180. Stop being his kind loving supportive spouse.

That is what I did after my H’s 2nd affair. He wasn’t going to lie to me and sweep everything under the rug.

I told him I was D him and I was. I had everything lined up and was going to pull the plug right after the Christmas season ended.

I also did the hard 180 even though we lived together. I didn’t speak to him unless the kids were around. I didn’t cook dinner for him or do his laundry or do any errands for him. No favors. No support. I went out with my friends and didn’t tell him where I was going. Or when I would be back. I treated him like he treated me but I just didn’t cheat.

I also demanded a post nup to even consider R and he willingly signed it. My H saw a side of me he wished he never saw and I have no regrets.

It’s been 10 years of a happy R. I wear the pants now. I take no crap.

And he’s afraid I will D him. Which I will do if he ever crosses me again. And he knows it.

What is in a post nup?

A post-nuptial agreement isn't valid in all states, so you'd need to check with your lawyer. It's a binding agreement on the division of assets in the event of a divorce or separation.

I'm sorry that he's putting you through this again.

It seems to me that either he never really understood the damage he caused to you emotionally the first time, or he's just too selfish to care. How is that going to change this time around?

You have to decide what is right for you. If you don't want to disrupt your life and you can live with the reality of his lack of respect for you and your marriage then a prenup is an option if they're enforceable in your state.

It's not too late to create a new life apart from him if that's what you want.

Preserve all your evidence, talk to a lawyer about your options, decide what you want, and then confront him. Then inform the OBS before he has an opportunity to warn the OP.

Best wishes.

A post nup could stipulate division of assets or custody arrangements or whatever terms you deem necessary.

I demanded a post nup to even consider Reconciliation.

As an example it may state that in exchange for 70% equity in the home the soon to be Ex waived rights to any retirement plans.

Consult with an attorney in your state. Mine would hold up in a court of law.

Ugh - aside from false R where the A never ends so any R was a lie from the get go, I think this is the most feared outcome. I am SO SORRY YOU ARE HERE AGAIN.

I think both of these things form some large portion of the correct answer to the "why again" question you undoubtably have rolling around in your head:

It seems to me that either he never really understood the damage he caused to you emotionally the first time, or he's just too selfish to care.

You really don't need any further answers that this to proceed. I know there is likely a huge part of you that wants to know everything possible - but when you get through that period of needing to know and realizing that you will never 100% really know - you can come back to this. He does not know the pain this caused you - not really - not all of it - because he has not experienced it for himself. But, he knows it caused you a lot of pain - regardless of whether he "gets" how it felt for you, it is undeniable that he knows you were in pain, caused by his actions, and he is choosing to repeat those actions. So, it is clear he is too selfish to care about your pain. I would also guess this is part of his thought process (having been told this by my WH years after he continued his A, saying it was done, for a year):

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THIS TIME IS THAT HE THINKS HE WON'T GET CAUGHT.

Seriously, my WH now admits that when he re-started his A after a few weeks, after I had caught him ten ways from Sunday, he really honestly thought that he would outsmart me. AND from the time he thought that way he turned me into the relationship police - I was a problem, a chore, and a hinderance to the real fun he was having. He had to "pretend" we were having a good time in our own lives to throw me off track.

He says that time number 2 with his AP (same AP he just went back multiple times after breaking it off/usually after being caught) was much different than when he first had the A. Going back - that was much more deliberate and his thoughts about me were much less "positive" - he thought about how I was going to be hurt much less, he compartmentalized more, and treated me much more like an adversary to be tricked. And, disgustingly, he admits he felt pretty smug when I would indicate that I trusted him about something that was a lie - affirmation of his mental superiority over me on some level - narcissistic tendencies overriding any potential for empathy he may have had.

But enough about him - what about you Holly? How ARE things going to change this time around?

What he does unfortunately is up to him - to your WS. None of that will be your choice - your choices all revolve around leaving (mentally, physically, or some combination of both) or staying. What do you want to do? You know where you are in life and you have walked this road before. I can only tell you that the road is 10 times harder after it happens again - at least for me it was. I am in a space where my WH has done "the work" - 3-4 years of IC, and he is a very different person...but I still cannot truly commit to trying again. I'm not even sure I want to - the work - the work for me isn't the be-all-end-all of the journey - IDK...I really like my life being mine - we see each other on "our" terms - not his and not mine. I live in my own house and have my own life and I DO NOT WORRY ABOUT WHAT MY WH IS DOING not because he could not be lying and screwing someone else right now - he certainly could - but because I am confident enough in ME that I KNOW I will be fine if indeed that is what he is doing. I know that if I met someone else and they cheated I would be fine then too.

I am different - I am changed, and largely for the better. So I would say to take this time to double down on you. As someone years ago said to me:

Bet on yourself, and bet big!

I cannot tell you what your WH will do or what he is doing what he is doing. I can tell you that if you take this as the wake up call to take charge of your own destiny - to get closer to yourself, you will be okay. Better than okay even - you will be great. (And yes, I HATED hearing all of this self-love talk when I was in the early days - but honestly, some of it is really true).

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 6:16 PM, Sunday, November 26th]

Holly,

I have a very similar situation to yours. I was in your exact space last year at this time. I didn’t confront for months while I gathered info. I snapped in January, 4 days before a planned cruise with many of our friends when I found receipts of Christmas gifts. He told me to my face he loved us both.

I was cold, indifferent and to this day I have not committed to reconciliation. Looking back we never really reconciled he didn’t put in the work and I rug swept to survive. This time he has been in therapy since February. We will need MC and I still need to start therapy. I have also been more open with some of my friends and shared what I am going through. I was silent and alone the last time I had a DD.

The one issue I still struggle with is when I snap confronted I stormed out without taking all electronic devices. He panic deleted all emails from a secret account and It could not be recovered. I tried. What I have saved and read over and over was a man in fantasy land. I have struggled heading into holiday season. Still not sure how my journey will end but there is a marked difference from his therapy. This gives me hope.

I have been concentrating on taking care of myself and my needs while I move through this episode.

Hang in there. S2D

I have an update-- one that is a bit hard to write.

Some backstory: Over the past several years, our sex life has been terrible. I was having troubles with libido and reaching O, he has ED and uses V; but when he does he gets some serious side effects the next day. About a year ago, we just stopped. We also stopping talking about it. I made several assumptions about him (he wanted to stop because taking V wasn't worth the side effects, his desire was gone, etc.) He made several assumptions about me (I no longer wanted sex at all and was content with a sexless marriage. Even though I had given him a few signals, he didn't understand them.)

Neither of us were right.

FF to last month when I noticed he refilled his V Rx. I thought-- great! We are going to try this again and bring back intimacy to our marriage! Except he didn't-- with me. I found his Rx and noticed 2 pills gone and then searched and found the deleted texts.

On Thanksgiving, I broke because I had 2 days of not sleeping and he finally asked me what was wrong? I first asked him about our sex life and then asked him to tell me about Beth. He didn't hide anything, but said he was someone she knew for years but they didn't start anything until July- she was in a similar situation with her BS and they were just hooking up for sex. He told me that he was absolutely clear to her that he loved me, he wasn't looking for anything other than a 'release' since he thought I no longer wanted sex at all. He went on to tell me that the last time WE had sex, it hurt me (which it did) and he felt terrible and didn't want to hurt me. He said while his drive had decreased, it wasn't gone-- he had used porn for awhile but that wasn't doing it. He didn't want a prostitute but also didn't want any complications. He didn't want to hurt me by flaunting it and was trying his best to be discrete about it.

He also said that we had a conversation about it a year ago and I said "do what you need to do." I do not remember this conversation.

When we were talking and all this came out, he was def panicked, horrified and upset that he understood differently that I did. He thought he was finding a solution that would keep us together but meet our mutual needs. He love-bombed me like crazy, absolutely said it was a matter of convenience and while he liked her, he was not in love, not looking to be in love. Given his decrease in drive, this 1-2x a year meet-up would be enough for him.

So now I'm left with wondering if I can believe him or have I just been gaslit in a huge way. In the text thread I found, there was NO affirmations of love- they all read like friends chatting about their hobby (with the exception of "I'll drop off a key". There was one text where she said "I miss you already." but he did not reciprocate in any way in text.)

Since then, we've had several very frank and open conversations about our sex-life and where we both really stand. While I have been sleeping a bit better (not great), he hasn't slept well at all. He was up all night one night and at 2:30a when we were both awake, he just said "I'm so very sorry- this wasn't what I intended at all. I never wanted you to feel that way again. I can't believe I got it so wrong." and a bunch of other very sincere-sounding statements.

Now I don't know what to do. I SO want to believe him. My head also realized I could be being played. The fact that I don't remember the conversation is concerning- but I *do* forget things, but generally not that important!

Thanks for reading this book. Right now, I feel stuck.

Is he still getting headaches?

Hmm, interesting. I didn't think to ask. But I will.

If he is, they aren't as debilitating as I thought as he had a full day the "day after".

[This message edited by HollyLou at 10:52 PM, Thursday, November 30th]

And he’s afraid I will D him. Which I will do if he ever crosses me again. And he knows it.

I understand this poster. I love my wife, but betray me again and I'm done. Her fucking someone else while I was watching the kids was neither the first, nor the last, of her betrayals, and I know that she knows that one more lie brings the end no matter what anyone thinks, no matter what it is about. She knows that if she crosses any of those lines again, that I'm not spending 4 more years in MC, that I am not spending the rest of my life wondering if I know the truth, that I am not going to be wondering if I know where she is, who she is with, or what she is doing. It isn't that I don't care, it is because I do care, but I care about myself as well and I know the damage I sustained before and am unwilling to suffer it again.

People who really change, like my FWS, they get that, and they either leave, or they stay, but they change. I suppose they can change back, but they know the consequences.

Sounds like he never really changed, or he reverted to prior behaviors.

I hope I'm never in your shoes.

Hmmm… I somehow thing I would remember a conversation where my wife suggested she get her sexual needs met elsewhere and I gave – even implied – consent…

Look – Imagine you had an unexpected and huge financial emergency. Like the transmission went on your only vehicle and the cost of replacement was 10k that you didn’t have… You and husband talk about what to do and there are suggestions ranging from getting 2-3 extra jobs, selling stuff or even – gasp – pawning the prized family jewelry handed down over the generations. The convo ends with "we have to do what we have to do…" and he goes out and robs a bank…
Don’t you think you would sort-of remember that robbing a bank was there on the list along extra jobs and pawning the jewelry?

I guess I’m sort-of implying that his excuse is exactly that – an excuse.
Problem with excuses is that next time you catch him he will try a new one. Like "Oh! I thought I wasn’t allowed to have sex with Beth! That’s why I dropped her and hooked up with Sue!"

My suggestions?
I’m not big on postnups. They really need to be carefully worded and considered "fair" to hold any value if contested. This is definitely something an attorney needs to do for you – if you go that path.

And I would… I would have a postnup that does things like: If you file he willingly finds another place to stay within a week of being served but commits to paying rent/mortgage/utilities/upkeeping of home until divorce is finalized. Outlines what are agreed upon your possessions, what funds and pensions are possibly not impacted and so on. Just keep in mind that the agreement must be seen as "fair" in that he’s not left living in a box on the curb.

I would also let Beths husband know. After all – if this was an agreement and he thought you would be fine with it then let’s assume the same applies to Beth’s husband. A side-benefit (because I’m guessing Beth’s husband isn’t fine with this…) is that Beth will cut him off like a hot potato.

Very rarely do I read a post that does not seem to fit within the bookends of this site, but yours has certainly been one of them. It has saddened me.

Now,in no way am I blaming you for his infidelity. You WH made his choice. I just want to peel back the layers. It sounds to me, at least at first read, that your relationship has some communication issues. You both seem to be making assumptions about the other and then building upon them. Communication is tough, or at least in my experience. I had/have many foo issues that make me reticent about communicating in a frank and open way. Although my experience with infidelity trauma and the copious amounts of IC have helped, it's still a struggle, especially in the area of sex.

Why can't I just be forthcoming with what I want and need? My partner has even expressed a desire for me to be more assertive with having my needs met, yet I still have trouble in this area. When I am assertive, I feel like an imposter and not my authentic self. Yup, big bucket of foo issues...

I don't know if your WH is gaslighting you or telling the truth about his take on things, only you can navigate that. No matter, as it is still a gut-punch regardless of intent. It's like getting shot by friendly fire...yeah, still a wound. If you do decide that R is on the table, then I think you both need to start from the ground up in terms of learning a new communication strategy. Im not a big believer in R as a rule, as the damage of an A is existential by nature, but i am hopeful that R does exist. Hell, i would have loved to have a better M post A, but that was not to be. All i can say fr
As one who tried and failed is that you need to learn each other's languages. Only then can you have a chance at R.

I'm really hoping you find your way through this...

My heart bleeds for you HollyLou, I’ve been there, false reconciliation is a very hard thing to face and acceptance is a process.

Based on the information provided, it appears that your husband's excuses, reactions and general BS regarding the current affair suggest that he may have continued engaging in infidelity without cessation since the first time.

Just looking at the timeline.

Ten years ago he cheated, as far as you were told it was the first time, once you found out it broke you, no doubt he witnessed your trauma response from his betrayal, you gave him the gift of R (I’m going to assume he did the work and you both didn’t rug sweep?) fast forward ten years later, he has various "hobbies" that you’re not a part of, he has made friendships with other women via this hobby (normally a big no no with R), he hides porn use (another no no for R), you find evidence of a recent AP, he is shocked at your trauma response by that affair, says he never thought you’d react like this, fabricates an encounter where you gave him the green light to sleep with others even though he also said he thought he was hiding this affair well, was being “discreet” and thought you wouldn’t find out (a complete contradiction of facts) and to make himself appear a good worthy husband (you know other than not sticking it in another woman) he devalues love by bombing you with worthless symbols of love, something he obviously isn’t a very good judge of.

Yes, you’re being manipulated here. Did he love bomb last time?

Frankly the fact he is shocked by your trauma response shows he was never a safe partner to R with in the first place because your trauma back then was devalued and became forgettable to him. His shock is shocking.

Since he was supposed to be a "recovered" wayward and has gone through R, his response to your pain, his excuses and reasoning is not acceptable, if this was the first time you’d expect this behaviour but for goodness sakes, he has inflicted this damage before, there are never any excuses to cheat, if this wasn’t false reconciliation he would have safe guarded himself from ever being on the path to this. It’s sickening to read he instigated this since his closet porn habit wasn’t doing it for him, what a selfish nasty prick.

No need to respond here but, with hindsight, how certain are you he never stopped cheating after the first time you caught him? Are there any red flags you ignored? Any patches of disconnect? he thought he was hiding it well, that he thought he was discreet, confident you wouldn’t find out, why is there so much faith and certainty in that? Why was he so confident in his hiding skills? That’s weird and a red flag, he wouldn’t have that level of confidence around his hiding skills unless he is experienced with hiding right?

I blew a fuse when I read he said to you he was being discreet because he didn’t want to rub your nose in it, what the actual?? does he want a handshake? “HoolyLou forget I’ve been sticking it other people, look instead of me being so considerate by not telling you in the first place!”... that whole excuse about why he was hiding it, for your sake, is a sick joke.

Then there are his piss poor excuses, the option for honest communication was always open, he is supposedly a reformed WH, he knew communication was the only "fix", honest constant communication, that’s not on you, not your burden, it’s his when it’s about sex. The fabrication of you giving the green light is utter manipulative BS, if he paid attention while doing the work during R he would also know that is a piss poor lie and excuse but he went there, lied and flipped it back on you ‘you hurt last time’ etc.

When it comes to serial cheaters my advice is the same, you need space, I’m not talking about a night on the couch, actual timeout. My advice is check into a Airbnb or hotel for a weekend or a week and NC, not 180, not grey rock, take a week away from your WH so you’re not exposed to his manipulative influence and go through your marriage timeline, look for missed red flags, detox yourself from his justifications, manipulative behaviour and excuses. Trust your gut. What do you want from a partner heading into this next stage of life, if you R and it happens yet again will you R again? Right now his pity party is going to take priority if you’re around him, you need to make you the priority, he won’t do it, you need to. You need space.

tell the OBS, do not alert WH, you should have access to everything, lift AP details and hunt OBS down, inform him via all channels. This affair has as much to do with you as it does him. I don’t support time thieves and non-consent relationships and that’s what sleeping with a cheater is, a non-consensual relationship.

When did his hobbies outside of the couple activities start? Other than fabricated late nights working and work trips one sided hobbies are the most used excuse for serial cheaters. If you have his email and login passwords download apps like reddit and dating apps and try logging in with that email/password, same with google docs, discord, Instagram, Snapchat, fb, x (Twitter), cheating websites (AM for example) and pornhub and there is a fetish site called fetlife, try it there as well. If there is no profile on any of those ask for his porn login info and do it when you can log in straight away, it’s rare a porn user doesn’t have a pornhub account in this day and age (porn accounts have chat/message features, you only want access to check email address plus messages.) If the login exists and it’s a different email address then try and login to those apps again using that email. If you want to track him but don’t want to pay for a gps box in the car or gps tracker of any kind you can always hide some AirPods in his car and bags and track them on your phone. Sorry, I was just writing thoughts out as they came to me then.

You’ve faced this before so believe it or not but you are better prepared now, you’ve got this. Get space, sleep (if you can’t speak to a doctor, this trauma is like a bad illness you need plenty of rest and liquids to heal), drink meal replacement shakes or get those microwave meals if you’re finding you’ve gone through days without eating something nutritious and take it a day at a time. Journal your thoughts.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 11:15 AM, Saturday, December 2nd]

Hi Holly…I’m so sorry you’re in this situation again. I’ve experienced it and understand more than I can say. I also spent a lot of time in rabbit holes and turning over rocks so I’m going to try to make this as simplistic as possible - which is to focus on just a simple choice that was made, particularly given that this choice was made twice.

Here we go…(switch your gears if you can ❤️).

Suppose I have a loved one that I know is severely allergic to…um, honey. Yes, honey it is. I know they are allergic to honey. They told me so. Directly. And because I understand this and want to be in the relationship, I promise that I will never cook with honey, won’t even have it in the house.

But there is a problem. I make my infamous banana nut muffins with honey…it’s the secret ingredient! It just seems like something is missing when I don’t use the honey. And I also think it’s stupid that their issue has now become my issue. Do I deserve to never have honey again??

Perhaps I tried to make the muffins a few time and just added a little honey and there was no reaction. Or perhaps I never added honey - other than that one time. It doesn’t matter why I thought it would be ok - I already knew it wasn’t. And one banana nut muffin day, it really wasn’t ok. My loved one had a severe action, became grievously ill, perhaps spent months in the hospital and years in rehab, and now subsequently has developed even more sensitivity to honey.

Would you EVER make muffins with honey again? Would you even want honey in the house? Would you not be checking the ingredients of everything that was bought at the grocery? Would you not be asking anybody and everybody that offered or brought you food if there was any honey in it?

Your husband has made his infamous honey banana nut muffins - again….and he left them out on the counter for you, after promising to never use honey again.

At this point, it really is that simple. It doesn’t matter why he thinks honey is so important…and it certainly doesn’t matter why you are allergic to it. Do we REALLY need to talk about this like it’s a communication issue? How could he NOT know? He knew.

You must decide if you can be in a relationship with someone that would serve you something so harmful - regardless of whether he thought you would eat it. He knowingly and willfully took this risk…again, at your expense. Are there ways to do that (stay) for the sake of protecting other benefits of the relationship? Yes, there are. But the only way to navigate that is to fully understand that there are simply some aspects that you can never trust again, can never share again. Awareness, acceptance, and distance (hard boundaries) are the way to do that. And that’s not your husband’s work - that’s yours.

He did it again, Holly…and not only does that negate every bit of the reconciliation from the past 10 years, it also negates every bit of the strategies that were employed in the last 10 years. They didn’t work…and employing them with now more effort is not likely to work either. You must accept exactly what you are working with - and that is the gift of a second discovery….it shows you. In a way that makes it much simpler than we sometimes want it to be.

Trust,

Your comments really resonated with me. I know this is Holly’s post but I am in the exact situation.

Thank you for this.

S2D

((((S2D)))) - I’m glad it helped and sorry you have something with which to resonate. ❤️

All this time later still amazed by how long I struggled with the forrest vs trees thing. But it was my path…as we each have our own. Learning to trust THAT was the most critical piece. ❤️❤️

I made several assumptions about him (he wanted to stop because taking V wasn't worth the side effects, his desire was gone, etc.) He made several assumptions about me (I no longer wanted sex at all and was content with a sexless marriage. Even though I had given him a few signals, he didn't understand them.)

Neither of us were right.

All assumptions are not equal. Your assumption resulted in a miscommunication. His resulted in adultery. Actions matter.

If we're doing a poll of how many of us were told variations on the theme of "I didn't think you would care", let me be the first to raise my hand. We hear that one at SI all the time. Here's the fly in the ointment though, if the WS truly believed that it didn't matter, why go to such lengths to hide it?

My WH told me a similar thing and it all sounded so reasonable, like he was a poor, confused lamb who just didn't know how to fix the marital issues and just became so hopeless he gave up. It sounded so convincing, until I realized that it didn't add up. He had options. He could have talked to me. He could have insisted on getting therapy. He could have divorced me if he felt it was really beyond all hope of repair. But he didn't. Because that's not really what was happening. What was happening is that he wanted to fool around but he didn't want to give up his wife, family, and lifestyle to do it.

If you read my profile page, you'll see I had a second go-round too. I've come to firmly believe that cheating is about the cheater, and anytime they tell you it's about something else, you run the risk of reconciling with an unsafe partner who hasn't remediated the character flaws which allowed him to say 'yes' to adultery. That's the bottom line, really. Your WH is the kind of guy who is capable of saying 'yes'. He's the kind of guy who can rationalize that choice. And as long as he's claiming it was a misunderstanding, or about connection, or about sex, he's still that guy.

Bigger, Justsomeguy, Trust, S2D, Chamomile- thank you. I’ve been rolling all this around and I REALLY appreciate your perspectives.

Yes, I think I’d remember tacitly agreeing he should go elsewhere, esp given the original A. I’m not sure what he thinks we talked about (if we even did), but agree a second A should never have been on the menu. Yet, he rationalized why that was okay. On a pretty weak assumption.

He is down at our second house now (I’m in home state) and he will be there until 12/22, so I have a bit of space.

To answer some questions: He is not very tech savvy, and we still have the tech-transparency protocols in place from 10ys ago. I’ve done quite a bit of sleuthing -now and over the years- (histories, credit reports, phone, known online accounts.). He’s not on much SM, and I really couldn’t find much more than what I already mentioned. Although I’m a bit stumped on how to assess iMessages (iPhone user to iPhone user) as they don’t appear on phone bills as usage, and disappear 30 days after deleting. I also have access to all his physical things as well (wallet, safes, paperwork) with the exception of whatever is currently at second house. I control all the money. His FindMyIphone is always on. His hobby is generally a male dominated one, and I have attended the conventions before.

I really thought we had a good R, mainly because he/we did everything suggested on this website at the time. He never balked at any of it.

I’m starting to get passed that sad/confused stage, and getting angry. All your posts have helped, as I’ve found myself blaming communication and my own sex issues vs remembering he was the one who rationalized that it was okay again. EVEN IF all he said was true, he still chose a PA.