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WW's New Heights

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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 1:28 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

I'm struggling today.
WW had a short physical fling (ONS+) and a prolonged, low intensity EA with two different men.
Currently I'm preparing an apartment in the city to move in for a trial separation. Not looking forward to it, but I know it's what I need to do to hopefully get some clarity and break some of the codependency in my marriage. She very much doesn't want me to leave, but has been coming along to help prepare and move.
We've been talking a lot during these weekends moving. She's committed to complete transparency and that's come with hearing some very upsetting things. Previously she described the night of her ONS as 'intense'. I asked her to clarify what she meant by that.
For some context, we were not in a good place in our relationship. We were recovering from some major damage I had done to the relationship due to retroactive jealousy. I had changed, but she was rug sweeping. She went out for a goodbye party with coworkers since she was changing jobs. She had been crushing on this guy for months and had been texting him regularly. She was drunk and high. They were the last ones left at the end of the night on an empty street. She lingered saying goodbye. They looked at each other, knew what they both wanted, and had a passionate make out session. He asked her if she wanted to go back to his place, she said yes, she texted me she was going to be staying at a female coworker's since it was late and she was drunk. They walked over a mile back to his place, got in, stripped, and had unprotected sex.
So, what does she mean by 'intense'? She says she's specifically talking about the make out. She says it was electric. I remember those experiences from our early relationship and asked how it compared. She has pretty much admitted it was a more extreme version of that. She admits there were times over the six years since (in which she had not disclosed) in which the memory of kissing him came back and it gave her a rush. This is incredibly painful. I thought that level of excitement and chemical high was something special between the two of us. Not only has she cheated, but I've been exceeded. It feels like I have never, and (if the relationship continues) will never be able to give her as much pleasure as her illicit make out. It feels like she's never desired me like she desired him. I'm a bit of a romantic and it feels like there's nothing special between us anymore.
The rest of the night she claims was not 'intense'. The kissing stopped to walk back to his place and some of the excitement was lost. She claims she still chose to have sex with him, but it was bad, she wasn't wet, she was tired, and wanted it to be over quickly. I'm also having difficulty believing that she was just having the most pleasurable physical experience of her life just prior to having bad or mediocre sex. These seem like lies and minimizations. If it's true I'm not sure I'll ever believe it.
She claims that she never looked back on the sex with anything but shock, she buried it pretty quick. But the kissing did come back and give her some residual pleasure. She's saying now that she can't think about that experience without shame and remorse for what it's taken from us. But, I'll never know if any of that is true, and I'm not sure that how she feels now will ultimately matter in the outcome of 'us'.
I really hope for R. I loved her immensely. I've never met another person I could be so 'myself' around and we click on so many levels, including sexually. But I don't know if these things can be overcome. I don't know if the excitement we shared being her 'second best' is something that can be accepted in a passionate relationship.
I don't really know what I'm hoping to get from writing this post. But, I'm hurting and writing it out has been a little therapeutic. Thanks for reading.

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808399
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Confused282 ( member #79680) posted at 1:45 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

There is a relationship expert I totally disagree with on some key issues named Ester Perel.

But she does say a lot of true things. That’s why she hooks so many people.

One of the things she says is "Women are attracted to the forbidden".

Another one is a quote from a guy who has sold millions of books named Dr Robert Glover.

"Women are attracted to anxiety, men are repulsed by it"

So add those 2 things together.

That’s one reason it was so intense. The tension built up over a long period of time.

Also the betrayal. She was betraying you slightly with each conversation.

So the tension and anxiety and worry was building up over time.

Then when she did it it all exploded into a very intense rush of dopamine.

It’s a high that’s hard to replicate.

About the sex she is smart enough not to tell you the truth.

If she really had a one night stand she may be telling you the truth.

If she continued the relationship and he dumped or moved on from her. Then she is probably lying.

The dynamics above are why women’s cheating can be much harder to come back from.

Also mens hyper focus on sex.

If it truly bothers you and you don’t know for sure if it’s a ONS then make her take a polygraph.

Like I said if it was really just a ONS then she may be telling the truth.

I’m sorry for your pain.

I hope you find happiness.

posts: 144   ·   registered: Dec. 16th, 2021   ·   location: USA
id 8808400
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survrus ( member #67698) posted at 2:09 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Fairest,

Just have her write out a timeline with everything detailed.

Take her for a polygraph where the main question is is the timeline complete and without omissions or minimizations.

Did she get tested for STDs, HPV can cause cancers years later latently.

Did you confront or expose the OM?

posts: 1355   ·   registered: Nov. 1st, 2018   ·   location: USA
id 8808402
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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 2:19 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Thanks for sharing your insight about the explosion of dopamine brought on through the forbidden nature and anxiety of betrayal. It's hard to get away from thinking there was something special about him. I thought the dopamine rush we had in our relationship was special because it was about us. I guess that's made me think that there was something special about the two of them, something like even more chemistry or attraction since she's described it as more 'extreme'. Her headspace and the excitement of betrayal are probably more fitting answers. I'm not sure that makes taking second fiddle any better, but it's an explanation that doesn't put AP on a pedestal.
I do believe the ONS was the only time they had sex. However, she did go back to see him after that. She still doesn't know or won't say why. She is a people pleaser and has very poor boundaries. She 'didn't want him to be upset with her or be angry' for turning down an invitation. Feels pretty weak, but that's all she's been able to give for the visit after. She popped in, felt awkward and anxious about the time since she was supposed to be out running errands, and offered him a BJ to 'get out of there quickly'. She ghosted him after that. That girl's got some problems. I can almost believe the sexual acting out in that case had more to do with staying 'safe'. And by 'safe' I mean not disappointing someone or creating a situation with conflict (she comes from a home with DA). But, it could have also been for the same reasons as the night of the ONS. That is, it was exciting and attractive. She's used sex as a way of controlling situations with men before me, maybe that's what was going on here. Or maybe he was just 'sexy as hell' and she wanted one last hurrah before she cut herself off. Will you ever know when your source is a proven liar who has some interest in softening the worst of the betrayal?

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808403
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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 2:26 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

survrus:

She has written a timeline, but it's more of an overview. Details have been verbal and interspersed through email communication between the two of us. I'm a little skeptical of the polygraph thing, but seems like a lot of people put some faith in it.

She just got tested and we're waiting on the results.

I did not confront or expose AP. It's been six years since these events. He was young and single and has since moved to another state. He had nothing to lose and a beautiful girl being receptive to his advances. He showed lack of character pursuing a married woman, but he's not the one who broke promises, he's not the one who had a responsibility to protect me. Is a confrontation something I should be thinking about at this point?

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808404
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MintChocChip ( member #83762) posted at 2:53 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

The best, most electric sex I ever had was with a younger man who'd pestered me for months on end. It was amazing physical chemistry, and that was it.

Didn't love him

Didn't care about him.

He meant literally nothing to me.

Whatever happens with you and WW, for the sake of your own self-esteem, please know that great sex isn't special.

Sometimes it's great because it's NOT special at all.

D Day: September 2020
Currently separated

posts: 186   ·   registered: Aug. 20th, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8808405
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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 3:57 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

MintChocChip:
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Unfortunately, my wife is the only person I've ever shared a sexual relationship with. I don't judge others for their non cheating experiences, but before this I felt somewhat lucky to have 'struck gold' on my first swing. I was raised in a pretty old fashioned household and believed that sex was something special to share with a person you loved.
This belief was obviously not shared by my wife. She had others before, but I thought those experiences wouldn't mean anything to her after the 'special' connection we had.

...please know that great sex isn't special.

Sometimes it's great because it's NOT special at all.

Based on my instilled attitudes about sex, this is difficult for me to understand. I'll have to take your word for it. Maybe I'll have to find out for myself if things don't work out with us.

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808407
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 4:08 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Electric and intense? How about forbidden and dirty?

You know you deserve better than someone that has a high intensity ONS and two low intensity EA’s.

Please take care!

posts: 186   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8808408
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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 4:40 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Yes, I know I deserve better. Everyone does. But just because we do, doesn't mean we'll get it.
She does have redeeming qualities, and I do think we're very compatible in a relationship. I think we're both oddities in similar ways and just 'get' each other.
However, she's a broken person with some critical flaws. Can those flaws be ironed out with hard work and dedication? Maybe.
She seems to be very remorseful and sees all the things she took for granted over the years. Will that perspective last? Maybe.
She's doing the work, breathing the work, swimming in the work, and seems to be enjoying it. Does that make a difference in the end? IDK.
Can someone go through a serial cheating 'phase', lol. IDK.
We've both made mistakes in the relationship (hers are worse by far). I don't know if R is a unicorn, but the hope that I can have a better version of my wife and (mostly) forget about what happened one day is keeping me from jumping to D. Maybe I need someone to tell me it's a pipe dream, but that fantasy is well and alive for now.

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808410
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 5:51 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Yes, I know I deserve better. Everyone does. But just because we do, doesn't mean we'll get it.

This doesn't mean you should settle for someone who is known for betraying you. Don't let the fear of unknown make you settle for familiar yet unsafe 'known'. If you don't have children and not much to lose except your cheating partner then D is not a bad choice. You are in shock. So, first calm down and don't jump to make safer assumptions on your wife. Her issues run deeper than you think. Gather as much truth about her issues and her affairs as possible and then make the decision. Do not let fear influence your decision.

Waywards at this stage can be very manipulative, and love gaslighting their BS. So, be mindful about that. Don't believe any facts that she says without verifying. Always question everything she says multiple times. Don't let the past chemistry with her influence your trust'o'meter. She is a different beast now.

Also, sex is not the only thing you should be focusing on. You should focus on everything she did from the day she developed crush on him till the dday. Every decisions, every lies, every excuses she gave to you and herself are betrayals. Focus on them too. They are as worse as sex.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:56 AM, Tuesday, September 19th]

posts: 452   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8808413
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Tren0R201 ( member #39633) posted at 6:35 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

However, she did go back to see him after that. She still doesn't know or won't say why.

Had intense make out, willing and freely went back to his, more than likely had good sex.

It's obvious why she went back, probably won't say it because it will hurt you.

posts: 1814   ·   registered: Jun. 22nd, 2013
id 8808414
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Potentialforevil ( new member #83626) posted at 8:35 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Had intense make out, willing and freely went back to his, more than likely had good sex

Not necessarily. The electric sensation can wear out quickly and then you are left with whats left, that is my personal experience. Especially under influence of substances. I wouldn't undermine WWs story lightly like that. Part of why she went back may have been the desire to recreate these feelings, which didn't happen, because it was a short term combination of many factors and not the bloke himself.

OP, you are right to feel jealous, you have been robbed of things that should be yours only, but really force yourself to not obsess over it, cause there will be no closure other than what you have.

Look at it this way - she went back to him and it made no sense, there was nothing. She went back to you ~10000 times and still wants to. This is special on a whole different level.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 8:38 AM, Tuesday, September 19th]

posts: 14   ·   registered: Jul. 20th, 2023
id 8808418
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 11:15 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

I sometimes wonder about the emphasis we place on the quality of sex.
I also wonder what the WS is trying to do when they tell us they didn’t feel aroused, couldn’t come, didn’t enjoy it.
I also wonder why we want to know if he was bigger (no pun intended), if she offered anal or whatever.

By the time quality, frequency and quantity of sex can be determined it’s too late.
Even some time before the wayward spouse is smoking the post-coital cigarette it’s too late.
It’s too late even before the WS allows the first button to be unbuttoned, the first zipper zipped.

At each temptation we face – be it to have a slice of cake despite being on a diet or be it to accept the offer of a BJ in a carpark with that perky intern at work – we have a moment where we can choose. We can DECIDE to refuse the cake, to walk away from the temptation. Or… we can decide to give up to temptation.
THAT is the moment the infidelity takes place.

Anything after that… its simply whether the cake was strawberry, chocolate or Sacher.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11794   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8808425
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Potentialforevil ( new member #83626) posted at 1:33 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

I sometimes wonder about the emphasis we place on the quality of sex.

I think there is a strong need of sexual ownership of long term monogamous partners, especially in man, and it is strongly interwined with feelings of intimacy and vulnerability. There is a whole BDSM kink mentioned from time to time in this forum, that focuses on exploiting this characteristic. I don't think there is any rationale behind it apart of natural programming. Like, what is the reason to get up from bad? We could discuss it forever, ultimately our limbic system gives us a kick, thats why we get up.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 1:33 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

posts: 14   ·   registered: Jul. 20th, 2023
id 8808439
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 2:25 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

About the sex she is smart enough not to tell you the truth.

Hmm, I don't know. I think it's quite possible that she felt a big zing from making out, which was the initial forbidden physical barrier being broken, and then it petered out or was tempered by guilt or indecision or whatever by the time they had sex. Potentialforevil said it well:

Not necessarily. The electric sensation can wear out quickly and then you are left with whats left, that is my personal experience. Especially under influence of substances. I wouldn't undermine WWs story lightly like that. Part of why she went back may have been the desire to recreate these feelings, which didn't happen, because it was a short term combination of many factors and not the bloke himself.

Let the world feel the weight of who you are and let them deal with it.

posts: 552   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8808441
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 2:28 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

we were not in a good place in our relationship. We were recovering from some major damage I had done to the relationship due to retroactive jealousy

She had been crushing on this guy for months and had been texting him regularly.

Your jealousy was because your gut was telling you she couldn't be trusted.

She was having an emotional affair with this man.

That's why your relationship was in a bad place.

Your jealousy was warranted.

She's a serial cheater. She gets a high off of cheating..that's the intensity. It has nothing to do with him..the proof of that is in the fact that he wasn't the only OM. She gets off on deception and forbidden sex.

I'll follow you down 'til the sound of my voice will haunt you..
You'll never get away from the sound of the woman that loves you

posts: 5871   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8808442
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:09 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

I'm also having difficulty believing that she was just having the most pleasurable physical experience of her life just prior to having bad or mediocre sex.

Kissing is sexual because it's sensual, after all. In your W's case, the sensuality was increased by the disorientation of being drunk. I can believe it was something like a peak experience for your W.

I can also believe the sex was mediocre. They were drunk, not in touch with their feelings. This was the first sex they had. They didn't know anything about what they each liked and disliked. My experience has been that it takes time and experiences to get from blah sex - which is pretty good in any case - to good to great sex.

If you believe your W is generally honest, my bet is that she's honest about the sex, too. If your difficulty believing her is a sign of general disbelief, you've got a big red flag you need to resolve.

If you're co-dependent, you don't believe in your own self-worth. I think you're making a great decision in working to get out of co-d. I think the more you get away from co-d, the more clarity you'll have about your decisions.

I want to know do, I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lose the reason?

If you start R, you definitely have the right to change to S or D. If you choose S, you probably will be able to re-choose R or D. If you D, you may be able to change to R.

Shirley Glass described a stage for people who didn't quite know what they wanted that she called 'working on the M' - you act as if you're going to R and see how it works out.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29032   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8808458
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 5:24 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

It's a good sign that she is embracing the work and willing to discuss the A's. I believe her when she says the sex wasn't good. I had an A after I caught my xWS's second A and had a similar experience. The excitement leading up to the actual sex was better than the sex. The A ended shortly after that well because it was a letdown and I had let myself and my M down by having a revenge A. Also the fact that you want to work on it and still love your spouse, as long as both are willing to put in the work to heal themselves R can be possible. You can always change your mind later. Time will tell how this pans out.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:27 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8554   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8808470
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 FairestotSeasons (original poster new member #83812) posted at 5:33 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Thank you for all your replies!

Lurkingsoul12:

Also, sex is not the only thing you should be focusing on. You should focus on everything she did from the day she developed crush on him till the dday. Every decisions, every lies, every excuses she gave to you and herself are betrayals. Focus on them too. They are as worse as sex.


You're right, I tend to zoom in on one part or another of the whole picture of infidelity. Sometimes it's the sex, sometimes it's the lies, sometimes it's the lack of remorse and compartmentalization, sometimes it's how easily she could lie and justify things to herself. It feels easier to work through each of these individually, the whole picture is overwhelming.

Potentialforevil:

Look at it this way - she went back to him and it made no sense, there was nothing. She went back to you ~10000 times and still wants to. This is special on a whole different level.


This is a positive spin. I know there were lies in our relationship, she's never been very forthcoming and hid big parts of herself from me. However, there has been genuine love, care, and intimacy. We built a great and unique life for ourselves. If she has half a brain/heart at all she can see what she gained through chasing validation was not worth what she stands to lose. She's always been special to me, but given how she acted before full disclosure, it's hard to believe we were special to her. Maybe she sees it now?

Bigger:

You pose a good point. The betrayal happened. Do the details really matter? When thinking about D, I think the answer is no. She chose to chase a short term high to 'fix' her brokenness at the cost of hurting me beyond comprehension. When thinking about R, I can't help but try to find the things that still remain exclusive between the two of us. Maybe I'm trying to find something to hold onto that redeems an effort to R. Maybe I'm just pain shopping.

HellFire:

Your jealousy was because your gut was telling you she couldn't be trusted.


I think this is partially true. My retroactive jealousy had been an issue for a long time prior to these events. Only the year prior to these events did I do something to change, did change, and became a better partner. I tried to patch things up and apologize, but she rug swept and was probably already checked out. I don't doubt she was going through some trauma response to how I had previously treated her. I'm not making excuses for her, just trying to acknowledge how I damaged her and the relationship. Maybe the whole time the jealousy was telling me something about her. Maybe she would have always cheated and was never trustworthy, she certainly has several vulnerabilities to cheating. But, maybe my issues broke her and gave her that tiny push over the edge. It certainly made her justifying things to herself much easier.

sisoon:

If you believe your W is generally honest, my bet is that she's honest about the sex, too. If your difficulty believing her is a sign of general disbelief, you've got a big red flag you need to resolve.


At this point, I do believe she's generally honest, but she has a long history of lying about things that might upset or disappoint me. Last night she broke down crying, confessing to me she told a white lie at work. I think she's very disappointed and ashamed of herself and is committed to fundamentally changing herself as much as she possibly can. I do still have a lot of difficulty believing her since I've been lied to so much over the years. She has been able to look me in the face so many times and tell me what I wanted to hear. It's not a comfortable position to be in.

Shirley Glass described a stage for people who didn't quite know what they wanted that she called 'working on the M' - you act as if you're going to R and see how it works out.


Not Just Friends was the first thing I picked up one week after I started to address my suspicions. Ideally, this would be my course of action. Stay living together and see how things go. However, we're in a complicated living situation. We live out in the middle of nowhere with several roommates, all in one big house. This is not a conducive environment for doing serious work on our relationship. It's difficult to be going through the worst time of my life and have to pretend every day that we're fine. It's isolating. I feel like I need to expand my social network and engage in life on my own terms, with less compromises. I'm afraid this separation will sabotage the communication and work we've been doing so far, but I know we both need to sort ourselves out before I can make a decision and before we can address the relationship. Many days I wish she was moving with me, but I know I'm not closing any doors and need to break out of codependency. I just hope I can feel more confident one way or another in six month's time.

BH(33)
Together 15YRS, Married 11YRS
No kids
DDay1 (03/23): 6YR intermittent EA (AP#1)
DDay2 (06/23): ONS+ from 6YRS ago (AP#2)

I want to know, do I stay or do I go? And do I have to do just one, and can I choose again if I should lo

posts: 15   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2023   ·   location: Wandering
id 8808471
default

1994 ( member #82615) posted at 7:20 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

RJ is a real thing and not just something that people can snap out of. You probably did make her very uncomfortable on some of your worst days. However, do you blame her for your RJ? I'm betting no, since you worked on it to become better. Likewise, you shouldn't shoulder any of the blame of her affair. That is something you need to get out of your lexicon.
As far as PAs go, this one seems to be on the lighter end of the spectrum. Of course, while that statement may arguably be relatively true, it in no way diminishes from the very real pain you're feeling. I only say that to say you probably have something to work with if you choose to R. But it must be a choice, not fear-based decision making.
My only argument against it is that she had to know with RJ this would be more devastating for you than in someone who doesn't struggle with that. I'm no expert and that may be untrue, but I'll assume it is.
No offense, but she seems reckless and entitled. Her habitual lying to please you is the trait I'd most closely watch. I don't think you can take her at her word, frankly. Have you broached the subject of the poly?

posts: 57   ·   registered: Dec. 25th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8808487
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