SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I really struggled during my months of trying to R. My xwh "confessed" to the A and told me "everything" (which ultimately wasn't even close to true btw). During the R attempt, he said he wanted our marriage, he said I meant something to him, he said a lot of things. The problem is that while he was saying the things, he wasn't doing the things that proved what he was saying was true. Everyone says it, but this is why you watch actions and don't listen to the words they are saying.

I remember about 7 months in I was just struggling hard. Looking back with clear hindsight, I absolutely know it was because my logical brain knew he was full of shit but my emotional brain just did not want to admit that yet. I was talking to a friend of mine and she just grabbed my arm and told me to shut up and then said the following that was a game changer for me, and it went like this: IF THEY WANTED TO, THEY WOULD. If you truly are a priority, they will treat you like one. If fixing what they broke is a priority, they will fix what they broke. If their BS's wishes matter to them, they do their best to meet them. Mine wasn't. And he didn't want to. What mine wanted was a green light to be "polyamorous" and have a fling with his ap, and that was exactly where his efforts went - me and the marriage certainly didn't get any of his efforts. Her telling me that totally flipped the script in my head. I stopped questioning his feelings or motivation (or lack thereof), and started really looking at his actions. It allowed me the emotional breathing room I needed to make the decision to walk away. Was it easy? Hell no it wasn't. Was it necessary for ME? Yup. Was it the best decision I made for myself? Yes it was, by many many many miles.

I get wanting all of the truth. Totally get that. But at some point I think it becomes more important to look at the truth you already have and make YOUR decision based on that. I think there are BS's who get so laser-focused on "getting the truth" and digging in waiting for that instead of looking at the bigger picture of continued wayward behavior on the part of the ws (which TT and deflection and minimizing all fall into that bucket IMHO). I am not at all criticizing that either - I think being a BS is really hard and sometimes grasping onto something like "needing the truth" feels like a lifeboat in a raging sea. But the point isn't whether the ws is being truthful, it's that they are hesitating at all to disclose what the BS says they need when they also say that their BS matters to them. Those two things don't jive with one another.

I won't tell you to go either way, but I will tell you that when I was hard in the struggle, that gut-churny feeling was present nearly all the time as was the instinct to just tell him it was fine. Turns out for me, that was the two halves of me duking it out.

If I read this I would think this guy was just irredeemable. Strangely, on things other than this timeline he has been much better. Prior to 2 weeks ago he was making time to talk and offer support, losing the defensiveness, being caring and supportive. He just seems to keep slipping back.

The thing I love about this site is that no one is irredeemable. No one gets shamed. Ultimately when someone has an affair, it's about as bad as it gets already. Of course you have the people who say "oh my WS did X,Y,Z and was the model of great behavior" and reading that always made me sad when my own WS was shambomlic.

The truth was he is and was a very flawed man who loves me more than he has ever loved anything, and he screwed up because he doesn't love himself and has all sorts of broken bits.

I have posted stuff on here where I am typing it, I know it makes him sound irredeemable. But I leave out that he also did a lot of good stuff. And You have to trust yourself.

EllieKMAS really nails is below with her post because it says what you most need to know

During the R attempt, he said he wanted our marriage, he said I meant something to him, he said a lot of things. The problem is that while he was saying the things, he wasn't doing the things that proved what he was saying was true. Everyone says it, but this is why you watch actions and don't listen to the words they are saying.

This is ultimately it. Because I can tell you now that my WS is crying for me, in pieces. Throughout our process of R I don't think he ever really said anything mean to me. Gaslighty and blame reversing yes, but criticising me? Never. He always, through every minute of it, thought I was the best person on the planet. There was never a single day he didn't tell me I was beautiful or try and take care of me, or try and touch me or - in his own inept way - love me. There have been many things through this false R that he has done that I know for a fact he would not do for anyone else.

But his actions also showed he didn't "get it", and deep down I knew we wouldn't heal just from me being loved. I needed to be repaired - we both did.

I remember about 7 months in I was just struggling hard. Looking back with clear hindsight, I absolutely know it was because my logical brain knew he was full of shit but my emotional brain just did not want to admit that yet. I was talking to a friend of mine and she just grabbed my arm and told me to shut up and then said the following that was a game changer for me, and it went like this: IF THEY WANTED TO, THEY WOULD.

This is honestly the truth. If they wanted to - THEY WOULD. They want to be married to you -yes. They love you - yes. They want all this damned nightmare to disappear - HELL YES! But what they don't really want to do is look what they did square in the jaw and face it with the integrity, empathy and strength they need to muster up.

If fixing what they broke is a priority, they will fix what they broke. If their BS's wishes matter to them, they do their best to meet them. Mine wasn't. And he didn't want to.

You sound like you have all your ducks lined up and good for you - because there will come a time where you start to feel resentment. All the good stuff he does suddenly won't make up for what you really NEED and truly DESERVE and that will be the minute you feel you want to leave. Because loving someone is one thing, but if you start to resent them then you stop wanting to make them happy. This is where love dies.

I get wanting all of the truth. Totally get that. But at some point I think it becomes more important to look at the truth you already have and make YOUR decision based on that. I think there are BS's who get so laser-focused on "getting the truth" and digging in waiting for that instead of looking at the bigger picture of continued wayward behavior on the part of the ws (which TT and deflection and minimizing all fall into that bucket IMHO). I am not at all criticizing that either - I think being a BS is really hard and sometimes grasping onto something like "needing the truth" feels like a lifeboat in a raging sea. But the point isn't whether the ws is being truthful, it's that they are hesitating at all to disclose what the BS says they need when they also say that their BS matters to them. Those two things don't jive with one another.

I agree with this completely, but what I felt from your post is that the timeline doesn't matter as much as the fact that he's not demonstrating effort and empathy. My spouse has been sending me letters for days now saying he finally wants to do "the work" now I have left him because he WASN'T doing the work. You will find, and feel in your own time what is best for you - and ultimately if someone you love has deeply harmed you and you are patient and hopeful and they end up not moving mountains to take that hurt away - they WILL LOSE YOU.

I am not going to give you advice, beyond, be clear with what you want, need and deserve. Then make your choices as you watch him make his. Sometimes they people need a helluva shock to the system to realise they need to change.

Sc2022, You don’t have to take drastic steps to end the marriage right away. My hope was you telling him you have had enough would give him a much needed jolt out of his indifference. That a trial separation would help, for him to know you mean it this time. Obviously that doesn’t seem the case based on your update.

My only concern is for you, your mental anguish around this. It’s not healthy for you. You have to make peace with the fact that this man is not capable of being completely accountable for all his actions. Something this whole experience has taught me, there are very few people capable of taking responsibility for their mistakes and a good majority that cannot. A major character flaw in my opinion, but I have seen this even in relatively well functioning, seemingly nice people.

Take a break from all this, focus on getting back to work full time in January with a healthy mind set. Make that your goal. Make your healing your priority, he is not going to be helping you with that. Once you are in a better frame of mind, decide if the timeline is important for you to stay in the marriage.

Great post Ellie. All of it really. I specifically liked this:

IF THEY WANTED TO, THEY WOULD. If you truly are a priority, they will treat you like one. If fixing what they broke is a priority, they will fix what they broke. If their BS's wishes matter to them, they do their best to meet them. Mine wasn't. And he didn't want to.

Because it's true. We all want/need different things post-D-day but I thin the commonality is for us to feel like we are a priority in whatever shape that takes. People can say they prioritize something (or someone) until they are blue in the face but their actions can tell us whether this is true or not. Actions over words.

OP - You give him a deadline to have it done. A hard one. He either does it by then or he doesn't and you ______ (think about this, you need to be ready to follow through). His actions will show you whether he is serious about this and whether he is going to make you a priority. If he is not prepared to make you a priority in the ways that matter to you, what are you doing in this relationship.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 7:07 PM, Thursday, September 21st]

Thank you all for this very helpful information. EllieKM saying if he wanted to he would definitely struck a nerve. It compelled me to not only verbally challenge what was happening but also send an email today clarifying all the ways the cheating, 8 years of lies, etc. Has left me feeling disrespected.

Then said

« The only possible way for me to feel any of that respect restored - and sometimes I too worry if this is possible — you would need to take the things I have asked for seriously.

I realize that the once a week therapy and periodic « talks » seem like a big burden to you. If you had been completely leveled and lost your basic ability to eat, sleep and move in the world because of another person, then that amount of time would NOT seem like a lot of time to you.

So when I ask you to do something I really need it to seem important. Like a surgery you have booked that you absolutely can not fail to show up for. It needs to be on that level. »

He seemed to kind of get it. We will see what the weekend holds but regardless I feel like I have preserved my self-respect. Your responses helped me see that was what was really bothering me. Now whatever he does - whether he fulfills his commitment or not - at least I know I didn’t just swallow it. I wish I knew why it took me hearing this from the kind folks in SI to get me to stand up for myself. That’s a job for another day…

As far as the content of the timeline MintChocChip is correct this one isn’t about getting the truth. I have what I’m going to get. Most is out and he won’t reveal more. I really don’t even want more, it’s enough. But even if I did I wont be getting it from him. His amnesty window has closed. The purpose of the timeline for me is just owning up on paper to what he’s admitted to verbally, and helping to put in order with basic but imperfect accuracy the crazy making series of events during the cheating and « pre-cheating » months. It wouldn’t hurt if he threw in a sentence about why he lied about the physical part for 8 years.

Emergent8: I will need to think about how to fill in your fill in the blank sentence. I did tell him tonight I am seriously considering leaving or having him leave. I have not said this many times in this 8 year process. Don’t worry, I didn’t tell him that to change his behavior. I was just being honest about where I am at with this. I said I didn’t want to apply pressure to him. He was all « no there should be pressure I understand… » and I said no there shouldn’t be pressure because you shouldn’t need pressure. Nuff said

Update: Showed me the timeline, it’s not complete. He asked me if I wanted to read it and I said no, not until it’s done. He opened the doc for me to see that it is 7.5 pages of single spaced typed narrative in paragraphs. There is a separate document that goes through every day during the A.

I have reiterated that I am not interested in reading 8 pages of justifications. He has assured me it is not that.

I asked that he not do the timeline this weekend so we could have two two hour question sessions. The questions relate to the manner and style of their interactions as boss/secretary during the 40 hour weeks. The hookups could only occur on Tuesdays because all the other days they were packed into a small office with 40 other people so any inappropriate behavior would be caught instantly. It sounds like they carried on in a mock-friendly-professional manner on those other days. On the Tuesdays she would enter the office he dictated in when no one was looking and they would kiss. After a month she would also let him feel her up. The hookups could only last five minutes become more time would definitely be noticed. Frankly I’m sure it was noticed anyway.

The whole time he knew he needed to fire her in two months because he had committed that date to me so he was scared she was gonna tell. He enlisted the help of the president of the practice and they were going to move her to be someone else’s secretary, not actually fire her from the company. But when she found out she couldn’t work for him she basically quit. But of course took the severance money.

I still worry that it was "romantic". There was no after hours communication because he was on total lockdown with me. I had his phone and if he was on his computer at night I would sit behind him in a chair so I could see everything. The one phone conversation they had I caught on VAR that I was using as my back up if I ever had to leave the house. That conversation was basically "how are the kids? Did you call back that patient? Alright well see y’a later have a good weekend…"

When he told her she had to leave the job-in the last weeks she worked for him she kept saying "she can’t take my job". That was a reference to me. And later she would say "I’m keeping my job…". I don’t know if those were threats or what.

I wonder what was in it for her. I feel like if I were in her position I would push the guy to tell me he was leaving his wife or something. But my husband describes her keeping it light and superficial. Like la dee da, we’re just cheating it’s good and fun and funny. She was shocked when he fired her. Did not see it coming. My husband would tell her toward the end "StillConfused is just not okay with this, something’s gotta change…." She would act like she didn’t understand the statement. I don’t understand this. Obviously StillConfused wasn’t okay with this. Who would be okay with their spouse cheating. I guess she thought that since I didn’t really have proof I couldn’t force him to fire her. In a way she was right, I really couldn’t force him. He did have to agree to do the firing. But he still tried to blame me so she wouldn’t be mad and sue him. Maybe she realized that was bullshit and he was letting her down or something.

I want to know their conversations but all I get from my husband is a lot of the AP telling him "she can’t do this…". In the early days, before he was ending it he describes a lot of him trying to "seem like the big shot". He would try to show off to her about what fancy vacations he was taking with his family or how sophisticated he was trying to be. He used to be a really shy person but with her he acted like this big confident successful guy. I guess he picked someone that made him feel that way. It sounds like he mostly talked "at" her. They were opposite political parties and he would spend time telling her how she was wrong about everything. I don’t really know how she tolerated it.

I still want to know what feelings he had for her. Anyone been in this situation? Where there was a power imbalance between the WS and the AP? What are the feelings?

It was the weekend when I posted. I am hoping that maybe some people have some more time now and maybe someone who either themselves or their spouse had an A where there was a power imbalance could comment on what the nature of that type of relationship is like. I find it so hard to understand what that kind of an affair looks like. Is the person in the lower power position afraid to ask for things? Do they feel mistreated? Are they mistreated?

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 2:12 AM, Tuesday, October 24th]

Most WS’s downplay the cheating, including mine. You most likely have a watered down version of what went down. He didn’t have the courage to say he wanted to end the affair, he put the blame all on you. Pretty cowardly don’t you think?

I know you are grasping at straws to make sense of everything, specially after trying to get the truth for so long. Just remember this affair was two weak people with poor self esteem. He needed someone "lesser" than him to feel good about himself while she needed someone "better" than her to desire her. Secure, confident and healthy people don’t need to piggyback on others to feel good about themselves.

How are you doing otherwise? I think you should shift the focus from their dynamics to your self. Focus on your healing, ask your WH what’s required of him to help you heal, protect yourself and your interests.

I know this is not what you are looking for in terms of a response. I couldn’t help responding, I have been where you are. Please be kind to yourself. Take care.

Abalone, I just am appreciative that someone responded at all. It has been good in a way for me to realize that this forum is not an IRL thing. They wont "be there for me" if I’m struggling with something. I feel silly that I thought otherwise. I really do appreciate your comment and I think it is spot on. I am sure there is water in the version of events I received. As far as the how am I doing otherwise it is mostly good. Kind of shocked at how there is strength again when 14 months ago I felt at the lowest point of my life. Every last dream crushed. Now I am rebuilding. Getting things prepped for new job, which is pretty stressful but ok. Found a new interest that is actually even more important than my job to me and something I can imagine devoting the rest of my life to, with or without WS. Still devoting time to friendships, though I always have that old feeling that I can’t really share my mind with them (because it would be too embarrassing to admit how much is still consumed by cheating recovery). Last night I felt like the weight of recovery had been taken off my shoulders. WS came home asking to have a dinner to "talk" b/c I seemed down. When we got home he went straight over to spend 2 hours on the timeline, which I have mentioned nothing about b/c kind of in a who cares frame of mind on that. Then he went to bed reading an infidelity book. It was weird.

Hi Stillconfused202,

As far as the how am I doing otherwise it is mostly good. Kind of shocked at how there is strength again when 14 months ago I felt at the lowest point of my life. Every last dream crushed. Now I am rebuilding. Getting things prepped for new job, which is pretty stressful but ok. Found a new interest that is actually even more important than my job to me and something I can imagine devoting the rest of my life to, with or without WS. Still devoting time to friendships, though I always have that old feeling that I can’t really share my mind with them (because it would be too embarrassing to admit how much is still consumed by cheating recovery).

I am so happy to hear you are finding strength again after being at the lowest point of your life only 14 months prior. Nice work.

I wish my WW was working on a time line. Hard to build a timeline when you claim you can't remember anything at all, including a name, even after looking at faculty pics from a yearbook. Unfortunately I am stuck. Hard to forgive if you do not know what you are forgiving.

Last night I felt like the weight of recovery had been taken off my shoulders. WS came home asking to have a dinner to "talk" b/c I seemed down. When we got home he went straight over to spend 2 hours on the timeline, which I have mentioned nothing about b/c kind of in a who cares frame of mind on that. Then he went to bed reading an infidelity book. It was weird.

Stillconfused2022,

I’m sorry to hear you have been struggling and have a lack of support. I "get" looking for help from these forums and it not always being "timely". That’s just the nature of things. Absent having friends who know and are there "immediately", I find the help from this forum and others I am on to be a true lifeline. There are a couple of other BH I PM with that gets "more in the weeds" that I find helpful as well.

The part I have highlighted above "speaks to me". It sounds like you are getting to a state of "meh". I can empathize with that. My UW asked a few weeks back if I "wanted to talk". I said no because she is having health issues and not in a good space to have that sort of talk and the last talk we had in August, she had been withholding newly discovered info about an AP because "it would have caused a long talk and she didn’t want to do that". Her response? "OK. I just don’t want to be told I’m not doing anything for recovery". Not helping her or us heal. How it makes her "look and feel". That coupled with the withholding info….she’s still exhibiting "wayward behaviors" and betraying me by not doing the work.

She also "reads infidelity books". When I ask what her "takeaways" are (and I have to ask because she doesn’t offer up anything), she can’t really say. So it is "activity" to "appear to be working" not "true work" that results in actions and changed behaviors. Be wary of the same from your WH…..

You are heard and the community is here for you even if not always timely.

Glad you are doing better. Do you think he finally gets it or he’s now realizing you are moving on?

Not a lot of WS’s get it. I mean they wouldn’t cheat in the first place if they were self -aware. I think that is one of the biggest frustrations in reconciling. I had to reach a point before I realized I needed to focus on my own healing because he isn’t capable of contributing to it. It was not healthy for me to keep breaking my head against a wall.

You should continue writing here even if you do not get responses right away. It’s therapeutic to write down your thoughts , questions and fears.

Please take care.

Thank you so much for your message Abalone. It really did help. I don’t know why I went down the rabbit-hole of wanting to know what an A with a distorted power dynamic looked like, but I think you got it right. They boosted each others egos until they turned on each other. Things are much better on the home front. He’s been really supportive with answering stray questions.

Wondayatatime: I read your wife’s posts. There was one thing she was struggling with I really wanted to give a recommendation on that worked for my husband who was previously doing shame spirals. But she has a stop sign. I’m sorry the yearbook didn’t help. It seems like there must be data to harvest but maybe that is just me rabbitholing again. The timeline is nice but is an exceedingly inexact thing 8 years out. I think your wife is being very brave to try. There is one thing my husband is holding back, like some of things your wife is holding back. My only hope is that if he ever comes clean on that last fact he fully admits he was a coward and wouldn’t say it. I couldn’t tolerate some nonsense about how it just came to him.

ImaChump: those passive aggressive comments would anger me. Somehow my husband is making progress on this. I don’t like how the way your wife said it seemed to indicate some contempt. As far as reading books I get you on the "appear to be working". My husband is reading the most useless book on infidelity it is humanly possible to find. He just grabbed it at a bookstore. It is about a man who takes back his wife after she does the most heinous things to him with the OM over and over, abandoning her children. Then he chooses to blame himself. He has a separate thing to blame himself for in the marriage for EVERY LETTER OF THE ALPHABET. It’s like a sick joke. But, he picked it so I’m not gonna complain—just gonna say I disagree with the guy’s conclusions.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 5:12 AM, Friday, October 27th]

Sc2022, Hope you are feeling better. There are a lot of good books and resources out there. Pity the WS’s don’t make use of it ( including mine) !

Thought I was on a bit of upswing but things fell apart a bit. Refocusing on self care and trying to be my own source of support rather than him. I got my flu shot, then covid shot a few days later. Then he answered a question about what happened in the office during his A and I realized that I had been picturing him and his AP sitting in the common area where the other docs and secretaries are. Turns out they were frequently in his back private office. Not far from the main area but enough that they would have had a lot more privacy. It ratchets the "badness" up pretty significantly and I’ve just felt devastated. I couldn’t stop crying for half a day and the stress and all the salt on my face led to a huge allergic reaction to my covid shot. I was swollen like a balloon and the doctor put me on steroids. I stayed home most of the week to recover. I am not allowing myself to cry because my face wont heal then. But there is some deep unchecked misery going on. I have no desire to go to my husband for comfort—kinda for the first time. He was callous when answering the questions and then didn’t bother to check on me all week despite his partial role in causing it. But I am still determined to forgive—NOT FOR HIM— but for myself. I need to put this behind me. It is obviously severely damaging my health to let this pain bring me down. I need to find a way to heal in myself. Once I get that point of strength then maybe I’ll sort out my marriage.

Sorry for the rant, and thank you so much for asking. Very very kind.

What do you mean by 'forgive'?

Forgiveness (as I define it: giving up all desire to punish WS or to see WS punished by someone/something else') isn't required for R.

Forgiving oneself may be a requirement. If you beat yourself up for having your feelings or for contributing to the A, you need to forgive yourself for sure.

You didn't cause the feelings associated with your H's A. You didn't cause the A. You didn't contribute to causing the A. You do have to deal with the consequences of your WS's failure as a human being. That's a consequence of being in a relationship with your WS, though, not because of any failure of yours.

Please don’t rush to forgive or force it. It will happen if/when it happens. You may need to accept it- accept that it happened, accept that your WH did the things he did and treated you as poorly as he did. But it will take as long as it takes to forgive. I’m 6+ years out and we D’d, and forgiveness ended up being a quiet feeling that crept up on me. SIsoon’ s definition is right, and it took me way longer than I thought it would to get there. But it happened naturally and organically when I was healed enough.

Focus on you. If you need to be unforgiving for now, don’t worry about it. Feel what you need to feel now. It seems like you have been stifling feelings for years, and that may be why you have so much unhappiness now. Feel what is authentic == and right now that is frustration and anger and hurt, or something like that, right? Down the road you can worry about forgiveness. I guess I see it like that deep misery you feel is shrapnel embedded deeply in you. You can’t forgive when those shards are painfully still working their way out. Once they are all removed and nothing but fading scars, then you can forgive or not. But don’t worry about that today. Today worry about that shrapnel.

Hang in there. Keep watching his actions and thinking about what you really want for your future. This stuff is so hard, and having a WS who is not all in focused on you makes it worse. Sending your strength and (((hugs))).

Thank you BB and Sisoon. Your comments were really helpful to me. It has just been a lot to process & sometimes gets to me

Hope you are getting better. That sounds painful.
You don’t have to forgive to be better or in R. You can become indifferent to his betrayal at some point but not necessarily forgive him for it.
The fact that he has not checked up on you after dropping these facts about the cheating, is very telling. Not surprising, I find most people that cheat do not have the emotional maturity to take accountability for their actions.
At what point are you ok with the details he provides? I don’t know too much, what I know is enough for me. You know he stepped out of the marriage, you know he betrayed you. Your health is most important, don’t torture yourself asking for more information if it sets you back.
Please take care !