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5decades: I agree with IAC that only you can answer the question of what you want to know. I am reading a book about "betrayal blindness" as a defense mechanism in betrayal trauma. In a way its a form of dissociation where one part of you is unaware of something and another part knows and you subconsciously allow yourself to live in a state of unknowing so as not to face that you have suffered such a profound injury from your primary attachment figure. This resonates with me because I catch myself cycling in and out of this with some frequency. For me it is also connected to the 7 years where he kept his secret — when some part of me knew but kept myself in complete denial. The WS gaslighting is the perfect match for our desire not to know. When we want/need to be more attached to our WS we employ the blindness but then something triggers us and breaks through and we are forced again to face the reality of what happened. Then we become very distant from our WS until we start to miss the connection to WS and the cycle starts again.

Hopefully you aren’t doing this. I definitely am, but I’d like to stop. I also don’t know if I want certain details but I’m afraid if I don’t face up to every last bad fact it will just come back to bite me. I also feel like I’m too old for this and I’m only 52. This author is a big proponent of group therapy to address the problem and I am thinking of doing that. The idea is that sharing the disclosures from your spouse with the group helps you to process in a less personally destructive way. It can apparently be done online.

Is there anything about those early affairs that you are particularly fearful of knowing? Or do you just have information overload and don’t want to put yourself through any more?

For sure none of this is easy. Would love to hear more

For sure none of this is easy. Would love to hear more

I've been lurking here at SI for 4yrs since my D-day. My WW confirmed her 5 year A that happened 30yrs ago. I'm 71 and my WW 70, high school sweethearts, firsts and are (yes,still) happily retired and married for 50yrs.

If there was a Cheaters Handbook with a list of terms, definitions and FAQ's, what a time saver. I've experienced most of it, TT's, rug sweeping, omitting, etc. and the many feelings that go with them.

At this point in my life I can and will handle it all. Just last week I asked W to only tell me the complete truths moving forward.
I'm not looking to catch her TT, Lies, Etc. I don't think it will work, it's not in her DNA.

Question for others?

During the timeframe of the deceit were you actively asking questions and just hearing lies back or was it just radio silence?

I was actively seeking answers, which varied.

- He swore it was Just Friends, but he suspected she wanted him and knew what SHE was doing.
- He swore that he had no intention of leaving me for her - that it was innocent flirting (dinners, her showing up at the hotel to pick him up, the phone calls, the emails, the movies, etc.)
- He swore they went dutch until I showed him credit card receipts. He said he thought they were going dutch and must have gotten it wrong how many times she paid. Which then spilled the beans that clearly, they went out more than what the credit card statements showed, which he quickly minimized.
- He said she meant nothing, but defended her when she wrote me a scathing email that I had issues. "You have to understand how SHE feels right now..."
- Said he didn't have a crush. Proably had a crush. Transferred all his care and concern. Isn't sure that's right, thinks the MC put that into his head.
- Never kissed. Never fooled around. Never had sex in TEN years of the relationship and 22 trips out of town. Said he knew that was crossing the line, but everything else was just... friendship.
- Swore he wasn't dating her (credit receipts prove differently). Only realized he was dating when the counselor told him it was and that's when he 'realized he was in an affair. BS. Cough.
- Swore there was no flirting. Then admitted after a failed poly (Are you keeping secrets about the affair from your wife? And, Did you have sexual contact with R?) To this, he insisted (and still does) that through his guilt, he failed, but he 'Never had sex with that woman.' His explanation remains that they exchanged sexual innuendos. That turned into HE lobbed them at her to 'get a reaction that would confirm she was hot for him.' And of course, he insists it was a 'game of chicken.'
- He points out that even though she flamed me, both on the phone and email, that he only defended her because he felt they were being wrongly accused.
- Swears that he treated me so horribly then (verbal, emotional abuse to me and the dogs) because WORK stressed him out and that he'd simply come to take me for granted - that it had nothing to do with his 'friendship.' Later, he started calling this his 'special friend.'

Yeah, I asked questions. They were all over the map. They'll swear that although things 'don't add up' that it's just bad coincidence and while it looks bad, they swear... A - nothing happened or B - THAT didn't happen.

Truth is, I think an overwhelming number of WS don't tell the truth or all the truth. Maybe that is a good question to ask one day. Why? Why did they decided to NOT tell everything?

For sure none of this is easy. Would love to hear more

I've been lurking here at SI for 4yrs since my D-day. My WW confirmed her 5 year A that happened 30yrs ago. I'm 71 and my WW 70, high school sweethearts, firsts and are (yes,still) happily retired and married for 50yrs.

If there was a Cheaters Handbook with a list of terms, definitions and FAQ's, what a time saver. I've experienced most of it, TT's, rug sweeping, omitting, etc. and the many feelings that go with them.

At this point in my life I can and will handle it all. Just last week I asked W to only tell me the complete truths moving forward.
I'm not looking to catch her TT, Lies, Etc. I don't think it will work, it's not in her DNA.

I am reading a book about "betrayal blindness" as a defense mechanism in betrayal trauma. In a way its a form of dissociation where one part of you is unaware of something and another part knows and you subconsciously allow yourself to live in a state of unknowing so as not to face that you have suffered such a profound injury from your primary attachment figure. This resonates with me because I catch myself cycling in and out of this with some frequency.

For me it is also connected to the 7 years where he kept his secret — when some part of me knew but kept myself in complete denial. The WS gaslighting is the perfect match for our desire not to know. When we want/need to be more attached to our WS we employ the blindness but then something triggers us and breaks through and we are forced again to face the reality of what happened. Then we become very distant from our WS until we start to miss the connection to WS and the cycle starts again.

An astute theory on the cycle that I've been going through for 30 years. My initial reaction to WW and her f***buddy on D-Day1, which ranged from homicidal to suicidal, drove her deep underground where she decided never to reveal anything about her affair to me again. Can't blame her for that but the lack of truth and the gaslighting has been like termites gnawing at the foundation of our marriage.

Is there anything about those early affairs that you are particularly fearful of knowing? Or do you just have information overload and don’t want to put yourself through any more?

It's the former. As to information overload, it's quite the opposite. "We had sex three times. He used a condom. I thought you didn't love me anymore. That's what adults do., etc. etc." Sound familiar? And oh, a year and half later there was this nugget: "I was in love with another man or maybe it was merely infatuation, but we didn't have sex." Sigh...

I'm 71 and my WW 70

I'll be 73 and WW will be 71 next month.

Just last week I asked W to only tell me the complete truths moving forward.
I'm not looking to catch her TT, Lies, Etc. I don't think it will work, it's not in her DNA.

Some will take their secrets to the grave. There's a scene in 'Kill Bill 2' where David Carradine injects Uma Thurman with a truth serum so she will finally be honest with him. Unfortunately I don't have anything like that so here we are.

As to the question about whether there are things that scare me about the affairs from way back when?

No.

I pretty much have always believed he lied then, and is lying now. He says it was oral sex twice now. I believe that is bullshit. Adults fuck. That’s what they do. She was in the middle of a divorce, and why would she not have been on birth control? So, no, I do not believe him.

And the nude beach incident? Maybe they started to and were interrupted. I don’t know.

He’s minimizing. No doubt in my mind.

It pisses me off, yes.

That said, I attribute some of this to my past reactions. I haven’t been the safest person to disclose these things to. I have to create a safer place, not threaten to burn the marriage to the ground, etc. We have to get past some of this shit so I can know what really happened.

DD 12/1/2024 I've spent the past several days reading. So much going on in this messed up mind! Thankful I found this website. My story in short:
Met my H when I was 16. He was 18. We dated/lived together for the next 5 years. Married in 81. Fast forward 43 years. H comes into kitchen and sits down. The look on his face made me nervous, but I had no idea what was to come. He stared me straight in the eyes and confessed to a ONS appx one year into our marriage (no kids yet, just a hot 22 yr old wife .) go figure. He told me everything that he could remember. As much detail as he could at the time. He cried, he showed remorse, disgust and all of the above for his betrayal and deceit. He is the LAST person I would have ever thought could do this. It's been rough. I got a peek behind the curtain and it's really messed me up. There's the side of my brain that says "hey, it's been 42 yrs, he's not that guy" and the other side that says "did I ever really know who you were?" We've had daily discussions and those help. I think the hardest thing for me is that he robbed me of my consent/choice. I was not able to decide if I wanted him in my bed again. I was not able to decide if I wanted to stay married to him. I was not able to observe if he truly was remorseful and changed his ways. I was not allowed to hold him accountable. I never ever suspected him of cheating.

He says he had to tell me. He said he respects and loves me too much to continue on in our marriage with this lie. Quite honestly, some things in our marriage (non-fidelity related) are making more sense now. He has self hated for a long time. Keeping a secret can do a lot of damage. I know we can get through this. In some ways it may be a blessing as twisted as that sounds. I've always felt something was off for him. He was never content. Workaholic. Easy to anger. Perfectionist. I am the classic enabler. People pleaser. It didn't help matters, but that's about to change.

Thanks for being here and sharing your stories. It really has helped.

Truman,

I just found out about several affairs that happened about 45 years ago. It’s like a huge thing, but also so long ago that I don’t know what to do with the information now.

I suspected one. But geeez, overloaded now.

Do you feel like your husband did this to alleviate his own guilt, or to make reparations? How are you doing?

5Decades..... I think he truly wants to repair our relationship. He renewed his walk with God and found the strength to flick that devil off his shoulder. He told me that he had asked a good friend 15 yrs ago what he should do. The friend told him he could confess to God and be good or he could confess to us both and risk losing me. He said he was just too much of a coward at the time. This has troubled him for 42 years. He was starting to lose his shit.I can see the damage. Not sure if he was broken to begin with or the A caused it. We were so young. Add booze, immaturity, selfishness, a job away from home and a cute young girl that doesn't complain when he's out drinking after work. Perfect storm. He totally owns this. He is now the husband I had always dreamed of . It's hard not to be resentful of all the missed years, but I'm hopeful that we have many more to enjoy.

If my WW would of revealed the 4-5 year A it probably would of lead to divorce back then. Her decision to take it to the grave
has saved heartache for many people and other families. Instead it's only effected the two of and us and I'm glad for that.

Our circle of family and friends is 95% of our life and that is how we want it. The other 5% of ugly stuff is still there daily for me and I will take it to the grave. As far as my W...I don't really know. It seems like there is never a good time to bring it up but with all the triggers on TV she will sometimes ask if I want her to change the station. I just say "no, I'm fine".

Sorry to hear that many people will be going thru stuff for while but it can get better.

He finally wrote a letter. And talked for about two hours.

I have truth.

Not what I wanted to hear, but at least I know.

Onward.

I hope all of you are doing well. I can’t tell you how much your stories resonate with me. I wanted to cut and past OptionedOut’s post and make the changes to it that would make it my story. But honestly there would so few changes it is actually pointless. Actually, one major difference is they did kiss. But only one day a week for like 7 weeks. God, it sounds so ridiculous when I write it down on paper. It kind of makes me want to vomit when I see that near identical explanation of events. I don’t know if seeing someone else write the same thing makes it seem less believable. Maybe that is not fair because all of these different versions of cheating follow different patterns and templates.

I am NOT in a good place with our relationship right now. Things had been pretty tolerable for awhile but now I feel like he is flip flopping from one day to the next between « I’ve been terrible at supporting you through this, I’m going to be there for you, i hate myself for how I’ve treated you » to « i need some space, i need more days where we don’t talk about this ». My head is spinning and I am sooooo deeply disappointed. Things had been looking up. I thought he kind of « got it ». Now it feels hopeless and pointless. Even if he were to be supportive now I wouldn’t even know if it was going to last.

What TrumansWorld said:

« I think the hardest thing for me is that he robbed me of my consent/choice. I was not able to decide if I wanted him in my bed again. I was not able to decide if I wanted to stay married to him.»

I totally feel that same way.

Can’t believe valentine’s day’s next week. I don’t want to celebrate but don’t want to deal with accusations that I’m not moving forward. He’ll end up in the « It’s been 8 years! » complaint mode. He is more subtle in the way he says this so you cant actually accuse him of being unsympathetic but I hear it there now. My birthday is next week too and that is the anniversary of him letting her come back to work behind my back after telling me she’d been pushed out. He showed up to the birthday dinner that night with one of those candy diamond rings, with promises to get me a new real one to make up for what he’d done. Meanwhile the lady was back in the office with him that day and kissed him. That stings. Its always going to sting and I just want to skip next week.

Peace to you all.

Sonos - you’re story sounds pretty brutal. That awful combo of it having been so long age (how could you complain? How come you cant get over it? After all, they are sooo sorry) and yet being a long and crappy affair story so you must be emotionally reeling. I actually am so sorry.

Mr. Kite - you are brave to be ready for the truth.

5Decades - also sorry for your news. I can’t even imagine. I’m falling apart from my shit sandwich of one affair (which I never call an affair, I usually call it cheating because maybe I can’t handle the truth)

Meanwhile tonight he is working late. In the exact office where he made out with his useless secretary. Not sure how I’m supposed to not be triggered.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 12:32 AM, Friday, February 9th]

So I headed out to our vacation home to spend a few days alone. DD December 2023 A 1982! I've stored boxes of photos and albums here. I had a need to look through them to gain some kind of understanding of where we were in our marriage 42 yrs ago. My memory is not that great, but with a little push, I can piece it together. I came across some photos from 1982. They were from the jobsite of the cabin he was framing that summer. It's where he met the OW. I look at his expression. Now it was either right before he cheated or right after. I'm talking days. He's looking at me like he likes me. Now I know that is not the case. But I definitely don't see shame and remorse, so it must be before. Right? He's looking at me like everything is A Ok! Yet he's so confused about his commitment of marriage (his words) of only a year that he's thinking of boning some young new gal at the bar? F**k! I stare at the photo and it haunts me. How long did it take him to actually decide to be present in our M? I feel like it took 42 yrs. DD. Up until then he was just partial. It may have grown over the years, but slowly. What a waste. I'm typing up a list of questions and comments for when I get back. He has hidden under the cloak of "I can't remember" a little too much. If he can remember football games and tee shots from 30 yrs ago, he can remember more. I was 100% committed our whole M. I need to know at what point did he decide to commit? He's been very open since DD day. I can feel a shift. I'm hoping that he will dig down and work at remembering regardless of the pain it will cause both of us. If he can do that, I think we can heal.

One glass of wine in tonight. Sorry if I rambled.

Just checking with The Club, wanted to see how you’re all doing.

Truman’s World. I agree about the photographs. They are one of the most horrifying things. I also hear you about I can’t remember. He has quite a good memory about a lot of things. Just not any of the details I am asking for. I’m glad there is a shift. I guess thats progress. I usually ramble when I have a glass of wine too. Feel free to ramble here! It is weird how these little fragments of data, like the box of photos and albums you mentioned, remain. Almost everything I had as evidence is gone. I have wiped things from the computer when I thought I needed to put stuff behind me. Now there are just a few fragments. Sometimes I pore over them to get what you said—some kind of understanding…

Things here are much the same. The roller coaster ride continues. Seemed like things were better this week. Then tonight had a quick blowup and resolution. I guess I’m supposed to be happy the resolutions come quicker. He had to stay till 9 at one of the offices and thats never comfortable for me. I called just as he was leaving and probably sounded accusatory. He had less than nothing to give after working an 18 hour day but I was not sympathetic. Our last « talk » left me feeling confused about some facts but we’ve agreed to every 3 nights so I’ll wait till tomorrow night to ask my follow up question. I’m feeling some waves of anger toward the AP. Kind of want to lash out but I wont. It is ancient history after all.

In case any one is bored and wants to fall asleep I’ll tell you the story. Two months after his AP was put on medical leave, with a plan according to my WS that she would move straight from that to employment as someone else’s assistant something happened. There had been no contact but she showed up to meet with the CEO, without telling my WS first, and said she expected her job back. Period. CEO contacted my WS and he basically agreed to take her back. She was there for 2 days before I found out at which point I showed up at the office and screamed and ranted at both of them in front of a packed audience. At that point the CEO realized it was best if they never worked together again and he took the lead in getting her severance and having her go find employment elsewhere. During that 2 day period when she was back apparently she tried to kiss him. He says she surprised him, approaching quickly and he pulled back, said we have to get back to work and walked past her to exit the office.

My major issue with this —- and its gonna seem really dumb —- is that I don’t want to include this 2 month period in the timeframe I consider the length of the affair. Nothing was happening physically or emotionally. It doesn’t feel the same as the months when it was actually going on.

I’m also angry he didn’t tell her—what the hell are you doing? I can sort of live with the fact he was afraid to anger her. He was in fact at great risk of a lawsuit. A situation that was obviously entirely his fault. But I still wish he had called her out.

So these are my perseverations. They serve no real purpose. Just ruminating on stuff.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 3:19 AM, Thursday, February 29th]

Stillconfused, I need to read your story again. I don't know if the triggers lessen and eventually go away or if that is our lot in life now. I do find myself thinking about it quite often. I guess that is normal. I've only known for 3 months. The fact that my WH will drop everything to sit and talk to me helps. Will your WH go the extra mile to comfort you no matter how many times you ask? If so, talk to him. They (WH's) did create the mess. They owe it to us to patiently work on the healing.

By the way, I ended up paring down my notes from my weekend away. Kept the important ones. We are back at the vacation home this weekend. I had left the photo album on the table for him to see. He avoided it like the plague! lol . Opened it at breakfast and we did a stroll down memory lane. He was really good about it. I didn't need to say anything. His face told me all I needed to know.

We also spent last weekend at his brothers cabin which is near the bar where he had met the OW. Talk about a trigger! Again, he was very aware of my emotions. Went out of his way to ask me how I was doing. Tells me he cares.

Just checking with The Club, wanted to see how you’re all doing.

Truman’s World. I agree about the photographs. They are one of the most horrifying things. I also hear you about I can’t remember. He has quite a good memory about a lot of things. Just not any of the details I am asking for.

Ahh, photographs from the "cheating time". "Precious moments frozen in time"……

My WW used to have a stellar memory. She could remember every kid my son played soccer with and every girl my daughter danced with, etc. this was all 30+ years ago. Now she "can’t remember" how long her 4 LTAs were, why, when or how ANY of them ended and "can’t remember" the first time she ever had sex with someone besides me. We tried to "jog" her memories and she can recall trivial things from 40+ years ago but when it comes to the affairs, there’s "vapor lock". I look at pictures of my son’s first birthday and first Christmas (when she was in an active affair) and she’s smiling like Chester Cheetah. Album after album of what should have been "happy memories" and I can’t even look at them. She says to me "why, can’t you look at these". Me: "Because the memories are now tainted".

In 2 weeks it will be the 40th Anniversary of the day we got "married".

That’s how I’m doing. FML….

[This message edited by ImaChump at 2:19 AM, Wednesday, June 12th]

Trumans World; that is really really nice about the dropping everything. That’s like my dream. Its been 18 months since I found out the truth so I’m really unsure how often we should be talking about this. How often do you guys talk about it? As far a triggers he’s mostly pretty good. He just seems to be especially bad when he is walking out of work. It’s happened a couple times where I call at that moment and it goes very badly. He doesn’t do well when he’s not mentally prepared, but sadly triggers don’t follow a predictable schedule—as you know.

I’m a Chump - I’m sorry. The anniversaries are the pits. If going away feels right to you then you should probably do that. Forty years is a long time. I find it kind of shocking how much harder these things are now. Does it make you feel good at all if she makes an effort or do you just want her to give you space?

The anniversaries are the pits. If going away feels right to you then you should probably do that. Forty years is a long time. I find it kind of shocking how much harder these things are now. Does it make you feel good at all if she makes an effort or do you just want her to give you space?

The date itself is not something I want her to make any effort around. She started cheating around our first anniversary. Was in active affairs through the first 5 anniversaries, in an active affair on our 15th and 20th. The date and the vows were meaningless to her then and I feel that day is the day I made the worst mistake of my life. She offered up renewing our vows shortly after D-Day 1 (while still actively lying to me about the scope of her affairs). I just laughed at her said "why? They didn’t work the first time".

We have agreed that we won’t acknowledge the date. I’m just afraid the whole thing will be too triggering for me.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 2:20 AM, Wednesday, June 12th]

Stillconfused, talk about it as long as you need to. We might touch on the subject every other day at this point. Last night we had another good talk. He doesn't like it, but he does it for me. I'm more interested in what his mindset was (or the why/how) than the actual dirty deed. He's an avoidant and I need to press him to dig. I had him fill out a love language questionnaire last night. He surprised me. Whatever it takes to get him to examine himself.

My triggers are songs, dates, photos and any references to cheating whether its on TV, in conversation or in print.

I don't know if the triggers lessen and eventually go away or if that is our lot in life now.

A lot of that depends on the wayward. In my case the triggers lessened greatly over the years. It'll be 30 years since D-Day1 this August. But every once in a while WW does something totally insensitive that sets me off. For example she recently decided it was a good idea to save some money by hooking up with her sister's AT&T account. So all the phone bills get sent to her sister's state instead of to our home. As a result I have no idea who she's calling or texting. And she was totally offended that I criticized her for this.