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Crazy how physically exhausting it is to have an emotional spill over.

What helped me was understanding the physical mechanism behind all that. We tend to think of triggers as emotional events, but the emotional part is only half the story. If you haven't yet read The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk, I think both you and your WS would get a lot out of it. It's not a book about infidelity. It's a book about trauma, and in it the author does a world-class job of explaining how the brain processes trauma and the effects it has on our physical bodies. Once I started paying attention and after I had a cursory understanding of what physical mechanisms were in place, I started to feel much more patient with the whole process.

Triggers are well-named. They're just the beginning of an event. After a while, I was able to list physical symptoms in the aftermath of a trigger. Heck, it didn't even have to be about infidelity at that point. Even a mild shock, like a missed fender bender in traffic, would bring on these same symptoms. I'd get a slight queasy sensation or roiling in my stomach, mild pain in my neck and shoulders, slight headache, and for anywhere between 12 and 48 hours afterward, a steep decline in mood. I'm talking black, hopeless depression. Then, I'd be back to what had become my new normal until the next trigger.

This was different from the first few months after dday, when the amygdala of my brain were in such a ramped up state of high alert that I felt like some invisible entity was shouting "Boo!" in my ear a hundred times a day. You could practically feel the flood of adrenaline and cortisol like is was spurting from a hose. It's more subtle later on with symptoms you can easily dismiss, but once I noticed the connection, it was plain as the nose on my face the my amygdala were still stuck in the 'on' position.

We are human animals and our bodies process certain events in very predictable ways. Triggers don't have to have hidden meaning. Sometimes, they just are what they are. Once you understand what your body is doing, it's easier to determine what, if anything, they mean to your R.

InkHulk:

You don’t know whether she did or she didn’t. Obviously not completely, we know that. But there is no emotional risk from someone who only tells you how amazing you are. She did eventually block him out emotionally after a blow out fight.

Which begs the question though, what if there was no blow-out fight. Would your WW's affair still be going on, if AP had not disqualified himself as he did. And, did she really shut down to AP. Remember, she did sign off with him finally with 'I love you'.

Yes InkHulk, I can relate to being self-sacrificial too. I think too many of us here can. I actually do have those tendencies still, but I have learned the need to be disciplined which includes reining it in. The thing is, by doing so much for other people, we really are, in most instances, helping them a lot less than we think we are.

In any event, you can see how being self-sacrificial with your WW all these years throughout your marriage has not worked. Why would you double-down on this very strategy.

RE your most recent post, what if you were to tell your WW that while you appreciate her increased efforts, it still just is not doing, and that she needs to redouble her efforts again. She needs to be willing to get down on the floor with you when you are hurting. AND she needs to be willing to do a lot more around the house too. If she really wants to save your marriage, she will fight for it.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:42 PM, Tuesday, March 14th]

Thanks WOF, that’s helpful. Were you able to stay "regulated" during hard conversations with her? How did you manage her shut downs?

And thanks, CT. I did read Body Keeps the Score, it was actually a major precursor to D-Day. Learned what trauma was, began to recognize it in my wife, started to see hope for the future in over coming it, and that hope was part of her reason for confessing. Anywho, that clinical description is helpful to me in the throws of it, and reminds me that I will get back to normal soon enough.

Which begs the question though, what if there was no blow-out fight. Would your WW's affair still be going on, if AP had not disqualified himself as he did. And, did she really shut down to AP. Remember, she did sign off with him finally with 'I love you'.

Seems like you are looking to prod a little today. It’s ok, I know you mean well. What if’s don’t mean anything to me. But what that episode does show me is she was still herself even in the A, and it gives me some satisfaction that POSOM got some of her worst, and she got some of his.

Yes InkHulk, I can relate to being self-sacrificial too. I think too many of us here can. I actually do have those tendencies still, but I have learned the need to be disciplined which includes reining it in. The thing is, by doing so much for other people, we really are, in most instances, helping them a lot less than we think we are.

There is a risk in giving to others, they may fail to be self reliant and fail to be appreciative. But there are risks to being selfish. We all fall somewhere on a spectrum there and I was generally content with how my balance was working out.

In any event, you can see how being self-sacrificial with your WW all these years throughout your marriage has not worked. Why would you double-down on this very strategy.

Valid. But shifting on the spectrum doesn’t have to mean going full narcissist on her. With the break of trust I need to fight for my own needs far more. And looking back I should have been anyway.

I need some help from you all: how much venting do you think is appropriate at your WS? We talk about other outlets (punching bag, a good friend, journaling), so I don’t expect that the answer is ALL OF IT! But I also don’t think the answer is none of it. What was helpful to you? What mistakes did you make?

Any of the times I was able to vent, I didn’t have to yell or jump up and down — or worse. I have a way with words and tone. I raised two sons and didn’t have threaten them, they seemed to always know and understand when their old man was done with their bullshit. Like my grandfather, I’m a very slow burn anyway, so when I hit that "blow up" level, I tend to command the room is all. I never called her names. I was never to going to bully my partner, especially when angry.

The vents were more illuminating the terrain she created, describing the damage and the scale. I did point out, based on the relationship she described, I told her it sure seemed like AP was not only never her friend, he clearly didn’t respect her, and the way he ended it, he may not have even liked her.

That ended the last remnant of whatever fantasy bubble remained.

Four vents at the Mrs. over 2.5 years that helped me and my healing. Our MC helped a bunch.

My own healing? I did take notes/journal do research. I discovered no matter how much research I did, I will never understand a choice I haven’t made myself.

I did hit the gym more often (lifting, punching bags, etc). Walk more often. Listen to music.

SI helped a bunch. Good or bad advice, it helped me to bounce ideas off the ‘net and then find my own solutions. Lots of SI vents.

Too many vents in IC and MC because that ain’t cheap. I stopped going when I realized it was ONLY to vent, and nothing else.

My mistake? Looking for a goal line to be done and spike the ball. The line kept moving away from me. I tried a few times to consider myself healed, but I wasn’t. I’m mostly healed now, but as with any relationship, there is always work to be done.

You have to figure out if that work, that long uphill climb is worth it. That’s where the personal quality time kicks in. Pick some things that give you a tiny respite from the Hell you’re going through.

InkHulk:

Seems like you are looking to prod a little today. It’s ok, I know you mean well. What if’s don’t mean anything to me. But what that episode does show me is she was still herself even in the A, and it gives me some satisfaction that POSOM got some of her worst, and she got some of his.

That would be very much relevant to me though. I'd want to know that my wife would be willing to protect our marriage from even, say, a proposal from Ryan Gosling. And this goes how many more times if I were to stick around after an affair from her. I sure as hell would not be satisfied that she is there because 'I won' against an AP who actually disqualified himself.

Yes, I am prodding. The last question especially because it is an important point that you need to look very hard at RE my paragraph above, instead of Rugsweeping. I understand you do not like it, but please, do not discount this! You NEED TO and DESERVE TO feel safe in your marriage.

Speaking of prodding...Wait a second, why is the other end of the spectrum (from being self-sacrificial) being narcissistic? Is it really though? Could self-sacrificial and being narcissistic actually be on the same end? There are a lot of people who are self-sacrificial, *because* they want to see themselves in a certain way!

I must admit, that did stand out to me in your last post.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:48 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

Thanks WOF, that’s helpful. Were you able to stay "regulated" during hard conversations with her? How did you manage her shut downs?

We’ll I’m an OG GENX (born late 60s) so we are past masters at concealing negative emotions AND I’m a trial lawyer so I’ve got thirty years of composure in the face of chaos. I can honestly say that never once in spite of the heinous things she did have I used an epithet at her. I confess I said some things that were a bit cutting to describe what she did but never called her a bad name.

When she shut down we orbited in each other’s space without a lot of conversation for a few days and then I’d go ask her if the refrigerator was still in the kitchen or some other pretextual question and we’d slowly get back to "normal."

We also separated alcohol from affair discussions after we learned the hard way those don’t mix.

Hi IH,

I'm glad that you have a place where you can come and vent, and gain some sympathy - knowing that you have truly been heard by people who understand what you are experiencing.
I found triggers to be particularly nasty, and at times debilitating.
So I appreciate your reaction and the desire to sleep alone that night.

I'm glad that to hear about your WW's response, and that she is attempting to process this with you.
I respect the journey that you are on, and from other threads how you are seeking to understand her and the influences that shaped her choices.

My response to your excellent question:

I need some help from you all: how much venting do you think is appropriate at your WS? We talk about other outlets (punching bag, a good friend, journaling), so I don’t expect that the answer is ALL OF IT! But I also don’t think the answer is none of it. What was helpful to you? What mistakes did you make?

is that this is an answer that you will seek to discover for yourself.
And hopefully the balance of venting to your WW will change as you both learn and grow and adjust to these circumstances.

My wife also doesn't handle anger well. It was not a useful strategy for dealing with our differences.
We had to shape new strategies, but she also had to learn how to cope with my anger, particularly in moments when I triggered and became sad and withdrawn or angry. It's a delicate balance.

But it does help if she can see that you are sincere in wanting to deal with the infidelity, and are seeking to move out of it, and that together both of you can move forward, but that she also ahs her part to play.

I really haven't answered your question, but I want to encourage you as you seek to find your solution and the balance that will best meet both of your needs.
Hang in there brother,
FAWH.

Please know that you're not playing a "tough guy" role or bullying your wife by simply advocating for yourself and prioritizing your needs.

I think the quantity of your venting is much less relevant than how you're venting. If you're constantly berating her just to inflict pain on her, that's not healthy or constructive. But there shouldn't be any limitations on telling her how you feel, asking questions, and holding her accountable for her behavior.

Your desire to express your anger and your pain is indicative of how much you care about her and are emotionally invested in the marriage. I hope, for her sake, she recognizes that... because the day you completely shut down and stop feeling the need to talk to her about your feelings is the day that your marriage is effectively over.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:23 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

I don't know if my venting at a wayward husband is different than a wayward wife fearful of anger.

I was the one, in our marriage, that feared anger.

Nonetheless, I too did not vent to cause injury. I didn't name call. I didn't scream (although I did raise my voice from time to time). But I let loose every angry thought I had ever had, lol. My WS took every single bit of it and responded in three ways. One, he would validate my absolute right to feel that way and owned that he was the cause (I'll be honest here for a good while my response to his validation was "I didn't ask for your permission to feel this way, so whatever. lol, I was pretty white hot angry for a long time). Two, he started to really learn just how damn deep this runs. Three, he started to develop empathy. Some of my angry, angry words penetrated enough for him to put himself in my shoes.

Crying in front of him didn't do half the good that straight up, no bullshit talk did.

Look I think venting is something you do with that gym bag or here. Expressing your feelings - all of them including anger - is really what we are talking about.

I'm angry that you betrayed me.
I'm furious that my future is unknown.
I'm pissed that I have to decide between eating this shit sandwich or disrupting my children's lives
I'm outraged that my life now reads like a Lifetime movie. This is beneath me.
I'm raging against the injustice of this.

You get the idea.

And I am not suggesting these be said is some calm, controlled way. It is OK to really FEEL this stuff when you say it and have it reflected in your tone.

With you're wife's fear of anger there might be ways to express yourself that intimidate her less. Like writing it to her or making your list of things and reading them to her without interruption. Or in a therapist office. I'm spitballing here but I wouldn't make too many accommodations. Your anger is 100% justified and expressing it is healthy and right for you and your marriage. At some point, she's going to need to put her big girl panties on. I'd wager a guess that your future marriage 2.0 would really benefit from both of you being able to freely express your genuine feelings. That can begin now.

This feeling is lingering, maybe it’s getting better but not quickly.

I should have better defined my terms when asking that question. I’m not asking for my wife to stand in front of a full on raged out verbal attack. I don’t think in all of this that I’ve called her a name. In my highest moments of anger I’ve thrown what she did in her face. I’m not even asking for permission to do that, but I can’t be held to a standard that no communication can happen unless I can guarantee perfect behavior. We have MC in an hour and I’m going to push hard on this. It’s been 9 months, I never believed it would take this long to get the info I need.
But then this is just another example of where we are supposed to be using MC as the place to talk about affair stuff, and it doesn’t happen because there is always something like this to talk about. It’s like finding the babies in the river. Do you spend all your efforts pulling babies out of the water or do you go upstream and figure out why the hell it’s happening in the first place?

Your babies in the river analogy is great, InkHulk!

Regarding the objective of MC, it should be safe place for you to share your feelings and get constructive feedback, but more importantly, you should be getting the tools you need for effective communication outside of the MC's office. If the MC isn't providing that, then you absolutely need to ask for it. If the MC is on board with your wife's approach, then you should let them know that isn't going to work for you and find a different counselor if this one isn't meeting your needs.

Myself and many other betrayed spouses have made the mistake of thinking that if we are just patient enough and show enough empathy for our wayward spouses, that we will eventually get "our turn" to be heard. As you're probably realizing, the longer that we allow our needs to take a backseat, the less likely it is that we ever get our turn. Months turn into years, and before you know it, you have a WS who says, "After all this time, why can't you just let it go?!"

I don't think what you're asking for is unreasonable. I don't think she should accept being subjected to a full-scale berating on any sort of regular basis but it does not seem like that is what is happening. It's completely unreasonable that talk of the affair should be limited to a one hour slot once, maybe twice, a week ESPECIALLY when, if you're anything like I was, it's something you're thinking of during every waking hour of the day. There is no way to make progress that way.

Anger and other shows of negative emotion, on your behalf, is totally expected and rational at this stage. Triggers at this stage are perfectly normal and cannot be planned. At least in my experience, it makes perfect sense to work on strategies for both of you to help YOU deal with triggers during MC, but it sounds like you guys are spending more time playing defensive dodgeball and tiptoeing around all her various requirements about HOW and under what circumstances to talk about it. Next thing you know, you'll only be able to talk about the A on the second Tuesday of the month as long as it's not raining or too sunny and you've both consumed spaghetti (but not meatballs) within 4 hours (but not less than 2 hours) prior to the MC session. I'm being ridiculous, of course, but honestly, so is this. You're married, for f*ck's sakes, you should be able to have conversations without a referee present.

I'll be honest, I had PLENTY of anger during my anger phase. I definitely didn't manage to always stay regulated either. I am not and have never been a conflict avoidant personality and that didn't change post-A. I was never cruel or physical, and I never name-called. There were a few times I felt that I had crossed lines, and I apologized when I did. Obviously productive conversations can't happen when someone is yelling and I appreciate that, but that doesn't mean that its realistic to expect you to be perfect at all times. I obviously don't know you IRL InkHulk but I don't get the impression that you're hulking out at her (see what I did there?)

I mentioned to you in a previous thread that MC was useful for us because it helped us deal with HOW to stay productive and avoid getting off-topic when discussing the A. But that made sense because we were leaving MC and talking about the A every single day - sometimes for hours at a time. My own experience was that eventually triggers ended up being opportunities for my husband to comfort me and resulted in us coming together versus coming apart.

TO be honest, I'm having a hard time imagining how this plays out. Can you describe what a common interaction is?

I think I can understand somewhat the dynamic you are describing with your wife as it sounds similar to my marriage. My husband has major difficulty experiencing anger. He had a narcissistic father and he perceives even the slightest criticism as anger—always has. It is obviously no excuse, but because of this there have only been a few times where I really "blew up", maybe even just once. It’s also not my nature to act angrily toward others. I will get "frustrated" but I keep my emotions in check. As a result, I think I have tended to cry more, rather than show angry, even though I think they are coming from a similar place. I am sure that is more difficult as a man, just a guess, maybe not for you.

I also didn’t think of my approaches to discussing the A as venting. We would call it "questions" in the beginning and now we just call it needing to "talk about it". We have continual looped dialogue where I say I am struggling because I don’t want to shut down every thought I have about the A and what he was thinking, etc. Like most people in this situation, and we are 7 months out from the D-Day that it was physical, I have these thoughts a lot. Some days it’s all the time. He will make a comment about parenting or something and then I am immediately thinking of the A. So do I come out and say my thought or not? He has said it makes him sad when I bring it up all the time. So, then I will say I feel like I can’t bring it up because I don’t want to make you sad because I care about you. And he will say I’m not trying to shut you down I just have to be honest that it does make me sad. And so on and so on in an endless loop.

Yesterday, he said it was much more important to him to see me happy than to have me avoid speaking in order to not make him sad. That was helpful, but I am sure the next time I see him I will be thinking of the A and I will be feeling guilty about bringing it up again. It’s a loop and I’m not sure how to get out of it.

I hope your MC gives you some good advice on how to structure all of this. Of course, we shouldn’t be talking about this all the time. But, I definitely would NOT have agreed to only talking about the big stuff in MC. That would have been too constraining for me. I needed more support from my husband than that. I needed more frequent "talks". It is definitely starting to slow down. I think the more willing my husband is to talk about it the less intense my need to talk about it.

Ink, how was IC? Were you able to talk about it?

InkHulk,

I know we each deal with things in our own ways. One mistake I made, and I think I've talked about in your threads, was being too nice when I was still upset. I was constantly upset but was trying to build positive interactions. To my wife this seemed like blowing hot and cold, not like I was constantly upset and only occasionally letting it show. To heal, she needed to drop her defensiveness. I needed to communicate my constant and ongoing disastisfaction in a consistent manner. Only then did her effort levels get to something tolerable.

Somewhere I told another poster who said "she should be moving mountains" that she can only do it one rock at a time. But on the flip side, she needs to be moving more than one rock a week...

You are so far from transference of vigilance. And that's what this trigger episode is sort of showing, in my opinion. Her effort levels is just not high enough. Yes it takes time and work, but she is dragging her feet.

Myself and many other betrayed spouses have made the mistake of thinking that if we are just patient enough and show enough empathy for our wayward spouses, that we will eventually get "our turn" to be heard. As you're probably realizing, the longer that we allow our needs to take a backseat, the less likely it is that we ever get our turn. Months turn into years, and before you know it, you have a WS who says, "After all this time, why can't you just let it go?!"

Well, that kind of freaked me out to read. But it was good to hear. Thanks, BTB.

MC was hard yesterday. Our MC took a hard stance of keeping hard conversations contained in session for now, even as I’m expressing my torment. I believe she is trying to balance my trauma against my wife’s, and I don’t entirely blame her. She wants our next sessions to start with questions and end with her (MC) giving feedback on the interactions. Seems reasonable to me.

A harder thing was that MC came out strong against asking anything around sex, cited Gotmann, and asked "what good will it do?" I talked with my wife after session and told her that I had multiple good reasons to know and that I get to be the one to decide on my risk of taking on new trauma. Not her, and not the MC. I told her it’s a non-negotiable item for me: she can refuse but it violates my requirements for R. She agreed. She voiced concern of it adding triggers to me, that it might bring out something I can’t forgive, and that I’ll use it to shame and criticize her. I told her I won’t live with the uncertainty of it my whole life and she said she understood. I told her she will have the ability to stop as needed. She is a person who is immensely susceptible to shame talking about the most shameful thing she’s ever done. I feel for her. I commit to preserving her dignity and mental health in it. And it needs to happen.

We do communicate about the A. We text a decent amount. I’d prefer face to face, but it’s something. I could probably talk about stuff for hours for weeks or months. But we have jobs and kids, and she has a different tolerance limit for talking about A topics. Keep in mind, she is buried under the consequences of the A, family and friends know, a very real possibility of D hanging in the air, lifestyle change with new job, and she is for the first time in her life facing her underlying traumas.

As my mood stabilized, I can feel a greater capacity for empathy for her returning. I’m demanding my absolutes and looking to meet her where I can.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 10:21 PM, Thursday, March 16th]

"what good will it do?"

It will provide you the data you need to make an informed decision on major life changes. It will provide you agency in understanding the entire scenario rather than filling in the blanks. You're not a child and you have the ability to review the data to establish your healing path. Without the data, you do not have all of the necessary information to make that informed decision. Especially when the data is important to the medical- and psychological- decision making that needs to take place.

ETA last sentence.

[This message edited by leafields at 10:20 PM, Thursday, March 16th]

It will provide you the data you need to make an informed decision on major life changes.

I didn’t argue with the MC, didn’t see it as productive. My wife and I plan to talk about this stuff just between us. It’s a question between me and my wife. When I read Gotmann say in How To Make Love Last that all questions about sex need to be avoided I literally threw the book across the room. That is entirely his opinion, not his research based content, and it completely ignores the very valid reasons on the other side. It seems odd to me that he wrote that so definitively. I’d put a lot of money down that he is not the victim of betrayal. It’s just too strong of a statement for a question with no clear answer, especially for a man who actually has applied science to matters of the heart.